View Full Version : Whats the deal with LMT
LocoPlumber
08-17-12, 06:29
It seems that whenever a new member asks what rifle to buy everyone says bcm, colt, dd, or noveske. They are great rifles no doubt but lmt are seemingly just as good and can be had cheaper than dd and noveske. Biggest question I have is I know their reputation is good why does it seem they get passed over or overlooked as much as they do?
wetidlerjr
08-17-12, 06:55
It seems that whenever a new member asks what rifle to buy everyone says bcm, colt, dd, or noveske. They are great rifles no doubt but lmt are seemingly just as good and can be had cheaper than dd and noveske. Biggest question I have is I know their reputation is good why does it seem they get passed over or overlooked as much as they do?
Here is some light reading. :blink:
LMT (https://www.m4carbine.net/gtsearch.php?cx=003496919632624929056%3Adhiwgm0hbaa&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=LMT&siteurl=www.m4carbine.net%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D111148&ref=www.m4carbine.net%2Fforumdisplay.php%3Fs%3D%26daysprune%3D-1%26f%3D3&ss=1216j531298j4)
I don't think LMT has been as consistent as Colt, DD and some of the others over the years. But I have three of them here and they have all been 100% reliable. They don't look as nice as my DD or 6920 but they shoot just as well.
RogerinTPA
08-17-12, 07:08
There's nothing wrong with LMTs. It's a quality manufacturer who produces quality weapons. I think it's often overlooked because Colt, DD, BCM, & Noveske brands drowns out everything else, but you won't find anyone here bad mouthing them. I own Colt x 2, DD x 2, and an LMT. Out of all my ARs, the LMT has the smoothest stock trigger IMHO.
Straight Shooter
08-17-12, 07:21
LMT flat out rocks. WHY? Glad you asked.
They are every bit as well built as Colt, mine has a great trigger, they
put a lot of work into their barrels, including cryogenically treating them, Ive got a post on that in the Technical Section, btw, and just overall a good sound weapon. I too, have wondered many times why LMT isnt included in the Colt, Noveske, BCM, DD recommendations. They should be, imo.
The MIM the entire gun now. The just poor that shit in a mold and a complete L MIM T gun comes out like Willy Wonka or some shit!
Some people are affraid of this for whatever reason. :rolleyes:
Straight Shooter
08-17-12, 07:40
When did they start MIM-ing the LMT?!!
Mine is from May 09, the others Ive shot/handled are from around then too.
When did this start, and do you know exactly what parts are MIM'ed?
That was a joke. They were MIMing their gas keys at one point. Everyone went crazy over it, and there was a huge debate over it being good/bad/no different.
The fact that they use straight pins on the FSB and pint the FSB before finish... and thus before the barrel is installed is corner cutting clue enough for me to buy elsewhere.
LMT make a phenomenal product. Mine shoots great but we have seen a few flaws in their products as of recently. Very minor things but nonetheless. I would agree with the prior post stating they aren't quite as consistent. This seems to be the norm when a company wins a big contract though. I recently saw a DD with a pretty serious problem. These very few instances (LMT or DD) could just be the typical bad few from the batch kind of deal. In summary, LMT makes a great product with incredible features that no one else offers. They are very accurate and durable as all hell.
LocoPlumber
08-17-12, 08:13
Thanks for the replies my lmt has been a dream and was just interested as to why they don't seem to get the press the other big names do.
Straight Shooter
08-17-12, 08:18
Thanks markm-
I did know about the gas key, just wasnt aware if it involved other parts too. Myself..Im no fan of mim parts, but thats just me.
Ive always wondered too, why they use straight pins on the fsb, any guesses anyone? Thanks for the info.
I think someone inquired on their straigh pins at one time... might have been a member here... But they claimed they contacted LMT, and LMT had no plans to change the straight pin construction.
Straight pins alone haven't shown to be too problematic... but when you combine it with the pre finish install... forget it...
You can just get a BCM upper for the same price, and it's built right.
Straight Shooter
08-17-12, 08:31
Thanks for that info, markm. It is good to know the pro's/con's of a thing.
Recently seen LE/gov LMTs have been GTG. Ship times have been slow. They cut a few corners as noted, but they are a viable option. Others don't cut those corners, so they tend to rank higher on the preference list.
It seems that whenever a new member asks what rifle to buy everyone says bcm, colt, dd, or noveske. They are great rifles no doubt but lmt are seemingly just as good and can be had cheaper than dd and noveske. Biggest question I have is I know their reputation is good why does it seem they get passed over or overlooked as much as they do?
If we are talking about their standard model (not an MRP) with the M4 profile, I don't know why anyone would buy this over a Colt 6920 (which is cheaper).
If you want Middy (that isn't an MRP), LMT doesn't make one. So that rules them out of a lot of the market.
C4
Yeah... LMT has a couple of cool proprietary guns... MRP, MWS..
But for a standard DI AR carbine... There's better options.
justin_247
08-17-12, 10:11
The fact that they use straight pins on the FSB and pint the FSB before finish... and thus before the barrel is installed is corner cutting clue enough for me to buy elsewhere.
I think this is a legitimate beef. When every little shop and their mother are out there striving to check off every box on the chart, LMT has just sat back and watched. And, honestly, they have no reason to. Just like lower tier rifles, theirs fly off the shelves, so why improve a product that's selling just fine?
As far as the people being opposed to MIM parts... well, there isn't much to say about them. They seem like the sort of peoples who are also concerned about voodoo dolls, demonic portals, and other unscientific hysteria.
LocoPlumber
08-17-12, 10:45
Grant you would know better than my does colt and lmt set their prices fair trade or is there give in the mark ups? I ask because my lgs sells 6920s for 1120 and I got my std 16 for 950. I knew when I bought it colt makes good product and I knew lmt made good stuff also so the price was my only real hiccup. I see your colts are close to what I got my lmt for in January.
I've enjoyed my LMT, it has been a reliable and accurate rifle and has never failed me. I did have some ejector/extractor scoring on my brass for a bit but changing my buffer weight took care of that.
LMT's MRP/MWS platforms are one of the nicest rifles you can buy, they're a freaking work of art.
Grant you would know better than my does colt and lmt set their prices fair trade or is there give in the mark ups? I ask because my lgs sells 6920s for 1120 and I got my std 16 for 950. I knew when I bought it colt makes good product and I knew lmt made good stuff also so the price was my only real hiccup. I see your colts are close to what I got my lmt for in January.
Did you get the STD16 or the SPM16? The price you are listing for the STD16 is BELOW dealer price. So either the dealer was trying to dump it, or bought it used and passed it off as new.
6920's can be had all over the net for under $1100. MAP on a STD16 is 1,287 and the SPM16 (which is more like the 6920) is $1,272.
C4
Did you get the STD16 or the SPM16? The price you are listing for the STD16 is BELOW dealer price. So either the dealer was trying to dump it, or bought it used and passed it off as new.
6920's can be had all over the net for under $1100. MAP on a STD16 is 1,287 and the SPM16 (which is more like the 6920) is $1,272.
C4
Yeah i was thinking holy shit thats unheard of, I thought $1250 for mine was a great deal.
LocoPlumber
08-17-12, 11:19
It came with the sopmod stock and standard plastic hand guards. I know it was new maybe it was just old inventory.
It came with the sopmod stock and standard plastic hand guards. I know it was new maybe it was just old inventory.
That is the STD16. Most likely old inventory and took a loss on it.
C4
wetidlerjr
08-17-12, 12:53
That was a joke...
I saw what you did there. :D
JBecker 72
08-17-12, 13:07
I have a complete LMT upper with their M16 BCG and it has been a great rifle. I don't use it much any more because I prefer my mid and rifle length guns better, but I see no reason to get rid of it because it works. I got a good deal on it too (4 years ago), I think it was $600 complete with BCG, their big latch charging handle, the fixed rear sight that looks like a cut down carry handle and a set of single heat shield hand guards.
Blankwaffe
08-17-12, 13:37
Thanks for that info, markm. It is good to know the pro's/con's of a thing.
Lots of information on the points in subject on this forum.Here is a few from the past:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=69084&postcount=104
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=69205&postcount=124
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=153755&postcount=5
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=153759&postcount=6
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=45241&postcount=46
https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1159915&postcount=24
Straight Shooter
08-17-12, 15:28
Blankwaffe-
Very good info you posted there, very telling on some of the supposed "faults" of the LMT. And very telling on how some opinions have changed over time.
Blankwaffe-
Very good info you posted there, very telling on some of the supposed "faults" of the LMT. And very telling on how some opinions have changed over time.
I am not sure whose opinions have changed (missed that part by reading the links).
LMT builds a fantastic gun. With that said, they were also much cheaper than a Colt AR (when many of those posts were made). Now that Colt AR's can be had for around $1k it is hard to argue that anything is better.
As an LMT dealer, it has been years since anyone has bought or even asked us to order them one (that wasn't an MRP). I think that is telling.
C4
Blankwaffe
08-17-12, 16:57
Blankwaffe-
Very good info you posted there, very telling on some of the supposed "faults" of the LMT. And very telling on how some opinions have changed over time.
Not trying to display changes in opinions etc..
Fact is LMT using straight pins and no park under the FSB has been debated so many times in the past its becoming petty.
Here is another thread from TOS.
http://ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=543020
I think if LMT using straight pins and no no park under the FSB was inferior we would have seen some major issues by now from just shear number of units in use by the members on this forum list alone.
In fact I can only find a couple posts where there is a reported straight pin walking out of a FSB.
Here is one of the rare cases on this forum:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=36649&highlight=straight+pins
That said I was also initially worried about the straight pins in the FSB's as well.At the time,as noted in the thread above, I simply staked them in place as a shoulda woulda coulda thing.Beyond that Ive not had a straight pin walk out of the FSB's on my LMT's or Armalite's.
Also not discounting the straight pinned gas blocks that are in use.
vicious_cb
08-17-12, 17:05
I purchased an LMT before BCM, DD started making ARs and back when Colt was still using .170 FCG pins. I still have it and I have enough confidence in it that I would use it as a go-to-carbine. However if I were to purchase an upper today I would definitely get a BCM or DD.
I purchased an LMT before BCM, DD started making ARs and back when Colt was still using .170 FCG pins. I still have it and I have enough confidence in it that I would use it as a go-to-carbine. However if I were to purchase an upper today I would definitely get a BCM or DD.
Exactly. Five years ago, LMT was the next best option to a Colt - and at a better pricer point. There are a lot more quality options now - and the more competitive market has driven prices down (though LMT does not appear to have received the memo). LMT makes a decent product, but it is hard to recommend them over BCM, Colt or DD these days.
It seems that whenever a new member asks what rifle to buy everyone says bcm, colt, dd, or noveske.
Marketing?
I think someone inquired on their straigh pins at one time... might have been a member here... But they claimed they contacted LMT, and LMT had no plans to change the straight pin construction.
Straight pins alone haven't shown to be too problematic... but when you combine it with the pre finish install... forget it...
You can just get a BCM upper for the same price, and it's built right.
I have two LMT guns one is an SBR 10 I bought from Grant. Last two uppers I bought were 11.5" BCM upper, they were cheaper. But it has been a while. I have a few LMT BCG's as spares. They were $119 vs $139 for a BCM, and they were in stock when I was buying.
I am not sure whose opinions have changed (missed that part by reading the links).
LMT builds a fantastic gun. With that said, they were also much cheaper than a Colt AR (when many of those posts were made). Now that Colt AR's can be had for around $1k it is hard to argue that anything is better.
As an LMT dealer, it has been years since anyone has bought or even asked us to order them one (that wasn't an MRP). I think that is telling.
C4
It's been years but I bought both of my LMT's, an SBR and a complete lower from you but it has been years.
lots and lots of truth in what Merle said above.
LMT is the only major mfg. of complete ARs that doesn't advertise or sponser any presence on the internet.
Even Colt sponsors the kiddie site.
If anything has happen to LMT, it's that they have moved on to much bigger and brighter pastures...
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9846/img92591.jpg
Companies like BCM and DD have been willing to be more responsive to their customers and theymsell more components, I can buy bbls, stripped uppers, complete uppers minus the bbl, bbls with the FSB installed (DD). LMT doesn't do this last time I checked I would have bought from them if they did. They are missing a huge segment of the market. I love my LMT guns and uppers. They run very well.
Blankwaffe
08-17-12, 19:54
From what I can see its pretty obvious that LMT keeps the standard Defender 2000 models and complete standard carbine upper assemblies in the product line simply to fill their customer base in that market.
Just looking at their media and available models, LMT has been clearly focusing on the MRP line for many years,and even more so with the 308MWS.
http://www.lewismachine.net/news.php
I seriously doubt LMT will drop their prices anytime soon to compete in a flooded standard AR15 market when they can be more purpose driven and specialized.
But thats my opnion.
The biggest difference I see is that they don't offer a wide menu of options. BCM uppers can be bought in any flavor with any toppings you want. LMT is just plain carbine gas, bland vanilla flavor. This works for some, not for others.
I got a complete sopmod lower w/two stage trigger for $490 and a complete 10.5" LMT upper for another $520. $1,010 total for my sbr. I wanted LMT parts because I wanted plain vanilla. When I want something with sprinkles I go to BCM. It's all good stuff. I have never had a problem from any of the big manufacturers, LMT included. Like anything else, just buy what works best for you.
I agree with posters above though. The plain vanilla rifle is a little pricey when compared to a 6920 now.
LMT is hardly missing any market share. They make a significant amount of the components for the brand name players.. advertised or not. I would surmise keeping up with orders is a challenge. You don't market when you don't need to.
All my lowers are LMT.. for uppers I have the tools, training, experience and inclination to lego together what I perceive as optimized.
Personally I have a distaste for Colt. In the larger scheme of things it's probably statistically insignificant.. However, I have seen large DOD unit shipments with around 80% failure rates and a lack of responsiveness from the company. Horrible QA/QC.. union work or whatever, I don't know. A new guy commando shouldn't have to borrow tools, spend a day to completely disassemble, reassemble, find uppers, barrels, bolts that align, ensure all torque values and correct roll pins/springs, etc used. Bitter pill not swallowed again. It was exactly about this time the SCAR program started. No coincidence.
I would surmise keeping up with orders is a challenge. You don't market when you don't need to.
You have a a point there, if you look on LMT's website almost everything is backordered 16-20 weeks or more. I dont completely agree with the no need to market statement, but its working for LMT.
Littlelebowski
08-18-12, 18:57
Marketing?
LMT has that down. Just give a guy "T&E" gear and they get free advertising all over the gun forums.
littleone
Since your posting is immediately after my last...
If your insinuating I'm a shill for some sort of schwag from LMT your way out of order. While I converse with Karl at many trade shows and have had a previous RDTE relationship through work. I haven't received so much as a hat or can opener from them.
If your making other suggestions I would suggest qualifying them. To do otherwise is in the vein of a prepubescent whine.
* sorted amiably via PM
Littlelebowski
08-18-12, 19:25
littleone
Since your posting is immediately after my last...
If your insinuating I'm a shill for some sort of schwag from LMT your way out of order. While I converse with Karl at many trade shows and have had a previous RDTE relationship through work. I haven't received so much as a hat or can opener from them.
If your making other suggestions I would suggest qualifying them. To do otherwise is in the vein of a prepubescent whine.
Absolutely not and PM inbound. I don't doubt your integrity.
LMT's bread and butter is their MRP and MWS line of weapons. I like that fact as they are not inclined to be like everyone else.
I have a 14.5" carbine(not MRP) from LMT and really like it but wished I had gone the MRP route instead.
I researched the AR market for over a year before I purchased my LMT MRP, I bought an LMT Carbine at the same time for the wife. The MRP platform is perfect for the role I give it. It does everything I ask it to do, and looks beautiful doing it. I handled hundreds of AR's while searching for the perfect rifle for me and I just couldn't find a better made weapon.
That said, my next 5.56 will probably be a DD, a friend just bought one and it's NICE!
It seems that whenever a new member asks what rifle to buy everyone says bcm, colt, dd, or noveske. They are great rifles no doubt but lmt are seemingly just as good and can be had cheaper than dd and noveske. Biggest question I have is I know their reputation is good why does it seem they get passed over or overlooked as much as they do?
I have great faith in the LMT MWS but their piston guns have had a bit of trouble.
LMT was a great deal when they were under 1k, Colts were well above that, BCM and DD didn't exist. I've never had an issue with mine. Between the mid length boom, Colts costing less, DDs available options, and LMTs prices going up for a standard rifle, I can see why they aren't the first recommendation. I still wouldn't hesitate to buy any of their products if they suited my needs. I might pick up another std upper for my empty lower if I can't find a lw bcm carbine when the time comes.
Littlehendrick
08-20-12, 11:40
LMT takes pride in their straight pins, I think I paid 13 bucks for two when I needed to replace the ones I had in there (Friend dropped them on the floor and couldn't find them). That is my only real complaint with LMT. From my sample size of ONE I have had no issues. But I don't have the money to really push it hard and see what fails. If/when I buy my next upper, it will likely be a BCM because of the more options they have, not because I have an issue with their quality.
I don't have any of the normal LMT uppers but have 3 of the MRP's, a few colt's and a Noveske. The Noveske, in my opinion, has better fitment on the upper and lower than any of the LMT's or the Colt's but I would take my LMT 10.5 over anything else that I have. Light, shoots great and chews up everything I have put through it. I have the di and piston version of them but since getting the di, I don't ever shoot the piston any more. That being said, I don't think there is anything better made than the LMT.
I have great faith in the LMT MWS but their piston guns have had a bit of trouble.
I havent really followed up on their piston stuff, what kind of issues are they having?
As Grant mentioned there was a time when the LMT STD16 was priced significantly less than a 6920 if you could find one. I bought the LMT then immediately replaced the Bolt Carrier with a full auto version and upgraded to an H buffer. I have had absolutely no issues with the LMT and it shoots a bit more accurately than the 6920 I bought later. I would not hesitate to use the LMT for HD if necessary.
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