Orkan... Need "YOUR" Help...

[The Surgeon]

http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z350/Surgeon1529/MySecondRifleR700XCRTLR.jpg


Remington 700 Tactical XCR TAC Long Range in the .223.

I already have a Surgeon 308 and a Remington 700 Sendero II 300 RUM.

This rifle is one of those items that mean more than...
Well it has more value to me than just money.

I know there are more accurate rifles out there, but that is not the point.

I am dead set on this rife, R700 XCR Tac LongRange, because I am still kicking myself in the ass for getting rid of it several years back. The one that I did own was chambered in 308.

I am just not so sure the 223 is going to benefit me that much. Is the 223 good for target shooting at 500+ yrds and what are the 223's downfalls in regards to long range shooting i.e. where does it begin to struggle? Can I get away with running the longer, higher BC bullets out of a 1:9 twist? Of course I realize it depends on the gun as to what bullet it will ultimately like, but one can offer up an educated guess. As for hunting with the 223, about the only hunting I would do with a 223 Rem is for Yotes, Hogs, & the occasional Turkey during the fall rifle/shotgun season. My main use for either of these rifles/calibers is for long range target shooting and the occasional hunting when seasons are in.

The only other calibers that I have to choose from are the 308 Win and the 300 Win Mag, or that is the only calibers that are listed.

Don't get me wrong, I do "LOVE" my 308's and it wouldn't bother me to much to have another. The 300 Win Mag does have some advantages over my current 300 RUM, i.e. larger factory ammunition selection and I do not have my reloading equipment up and ready yet for the 300 RUM to really shine.

I love to shoot out past 500+ yards so would I really get any enjoyment from the 223? I do not know as much about the 223 as I do the other calibers mentioned. So if you would, give me some of your thoughts on this caliber i.e. the 223 Rem?

So you can see my predicament.

If you were in my shoes and the Remington XCR Tac Long Range was the gun you were going to buy and you already had a Surgeon 308 along with a Sendero 300 RUM, what would you do. Also why would you go the direction that you describe?

Specs On each rifle:
223 Rem - 1:9 Twist; 26" Barrel; 8.5 lbs
308 Win - 1:12 Twist; 26" Barrel; 8.5 lbs
300 WM - 1:10 Twist; 26" Barrel; 8.5 lbs

The 1:12 twist on the 308 doesn't bother me since the heaviest round I run is the 175 Berger Tac OTM's. I like the fact that I already have a plethora on quality 308 App Ball. Ammunition.

I do like the 300 Win Mag for its huge availability of factory ammo, especially from Applied Ballisstics. I like that the 300 WM is an extreme long Range caliber.

The 223 Rem I also like for the wide availability of ammunition. I am not so sure if the gun is a 500+ yard gun for punching paper, your thoughts I will look to on this one. I also like the fact that I will not have to put a break on the gun. The ammunition is probably the cheapest of all. I like that this gun could double as a trainer for my bigger calibers. Another plus is that the 223 would be a great gun to hand down to my daughter when she is ready.

Please remember, the Remington 700 XCR Tactical Long Range rifle is the "Only" gun I am going to consider. So as for other suggestions on other rifles, in different calibers...

Well, they are just not an option for me to consider right now. Also, like I told my Ol' Lady, I am not selling another rifle again. I am keeping my guns from here on out so selling the 300 RUM is a definite "No - No." As for the Surgeon, well that is self explanatory. LOL

Thanks for all your help in my " confused precarious predicament" & your time in helping me out.

Brian
Surgeon

[markm]

[
Is the 223 good for target shooting at 500+ yrds and what are the 223's downfalls in regards to long range shooting i.e. where does it begin to struggle? Can I get away with running the longer, higher BC bullets out of a 1:9 twist? Of course I realize it depends on the gun as to what bullet it will ultimately like, but one can offer up an educated guess.


I'm glad you came to me on this one, Son.

First... just the weekend before last I shot Pappabear's 20 inch Rem 700 5R to 500 yards. It's got the 1/9 and it shot some sick 1/2MOA or less little 3 round splatter group on the steel gong with 77 gr SMKs.

I was all happy with the .308 group I shot just before with it. And then the 5R came along and ate my beloved .308 up, Jack! It was like an inch smaller group.

We've gone 5 for 5 at a thousand yards with this gun on an IPSC sized steel gong with the 77 grs. It's not even a problem if the wind isn't too bad.

This gun has an AAC silencer on it, and is absolutely a pleasure to shoot.

[AR15barrels]

I'm not Orkan, but I do compete in precision rifle matches with a 223 so I will offer you my advice...


[Can I get away with running the longer, higher BC bullets out of a 1:9 twist?

What bullets you can run will depend on the atmospherics and how hard you push them.
In reality, I would not try to run anything longer than a 75gr Amax in your 26" long 1:9 twist barrel.

The 223 really shines with 80's and 90's, but with 75's and 69's you will be limited to, it performs poorly at moving steel.

[markm]

but with 75's and 69's you will be limited to, it performs poorly at moving steel.

That's why God made 1/4" armorgard. :cool:

Even the 77 gr SMK will wiggle these a little at 1000.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/Gongs.jpg?t=1342800943

[sinister]

The Remington 700V in .223 can do some pretty amazing things but I'd recommend a custom barrel rather than the factory tube.

The 1-9 twist should accommodate 75s and perhaps 77s with no problem. I'd recommend a 24-inch barrel or slightly longer to get the most velocity you can. With a scope 500 and 600 yards should be very much "Do-able."

National Match M16 shooters are restricted to 20-inch barrels in the M16/AR. 77s are about the heaviest you can use in an M16 magazine, but you can load 80s and 90s longer for single feeding (and possibly in a 700 magazine).

With a 1-8, 1-7, or even 1-6.5 you'll get even better results. There are a number of VERY good 80-grain bullets that can take the .223/5.56 to 1,000 yards if you stay on top of winds and have a good telescope. 1-6.5 is recommended for 90-grain bullets which will also stabilize 73-80 grainers as well.

[markm]

The Remington 700V in .223 can do some pretty amazing things but I'd recommend a custom barrel rather than the factory tube.

I'd shoot the barrel before I swapped it. Might as well give it a try.

Unless he's got his heart set on shooting an 80 grainer, the factory barrel might be good. What we've found is the .223 is all over it out to 700 yards.

It'll shoot farther, but you start separating the men from the boys at 800 and beyond.

[orkan]

To start with, .223's can be made to shoot very accurately at 1000yds. The Australians do it all the time. That's just because they can't have 308's. :p

77SMK @ 2800fps
SP: 28.40
Temp: 70f
H: 50%
10mph 9 O'clock wind

500yds
U 3.1 mils - L 1.4 mils
800yds
U 7.4 mils - L 2.7 mils
1000yds
U 11.6 mils - L 3.8 mils

Comparatively, my 175SMK 308 load in the same conditions.

500yds
U 2.9 - L 1.1
800yds
U 6.6 - L 2.1
1000yds
U 10.0 - L 2.9

As you can see, 500yds will be easy. 800 will be doable. 1000yds will be work. It will be fun to shoot though. Damn cheap too. I don't think I'd want to run much more than an 80 grainer. With a 77SMK its still very stable out of that tube.

[AR15barrels]

That's why God made 1/4" armorgard. :cool:

Even the 77 gr SMK will wiggle these a little at 1000.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/Gongs.jpg?t=1342800943

I'm glad you have control over what targets are used at all the matches you attend.
I don't have that luxury.

I have had issues (actual impacts not being counted/scored) with my 223 that I do not have with my 243.

There is also a BIG difference in dirt impact signature.
The little bullets don't disturb the dirt as much so it's more difficult to call corrections.

[markm]

I'm glad you have control over what targets are used at all the matches you attend.

:p

Oh, Lord! I don't attend matches. I shoot for enjoyment.

[The Surgeon]

Thanks Orkan! Good info and I do believe you helped make my mind up.


Thanks,

Brian

[orkan]

No problem. Anything else, just ask. :)

Have fun with it. A guy can get carried away with the big boomers... but every once in a while it's nice to just lay down and sling some lead without getting punched on.

[The Surgeon]

Like I told another member here, I trust your advice and I have never found your advice to be wrong. Trust me I have tried to find errors in your advice, which I believe everyone should do. You may be opinionated at times, but that is because you have been down most roads and realize the pit falls. It is hard when people like yourself give valuble information and people just want to argue because they really are basing their opinions on what they have read or what someone has told them. As for actual live field data to back up their veiw, the majority do not have a clue.

This may come across as kissing ass, but I am just giving credit where credit is do. I considere myself fairly knowledgeable about most things in the firearm industry and I am pretty damn good with a rifle. But, I do not know it all. For heavens sake, none of us know it all. But I respect your input, you tell it like it is and say exactly whats on your mind about subjects. Many people, this day and time, find that as being an opinionated ass and don't like that. Me, I respect a person more if the just tell it like it is and don't pull any punches.

[orkan]

Well thank you, sincerely. It's nice to be acknowledged once in a while.

As you said, the internet is full of guys regurgitating shit from snipershide. You can spot them almost instantly. However, there are a few out there that have been there and done that. Those select few are worth their weight in gold. I know if I ever get wrapped up in a problem I can't figure out... I'll ask guys like a0cake and taliv. Hasn't happened yet, and may never because I like to figure things out myself... but if it does, it's nice to know there are others that put personal experience ahead of all other forms of intelligence gathering.

[markm]

but every once in a while it's nice to just lay down and sling some lead without getting punched on.

When you do it with a silencer mounted.... it's beyond fun.

No noise? No heavy recoil? And you're pounding 'em out to 5, 6, 7 hundred yards or more? Absolute pleasure.

[RyanB]

I'd love to see Hornady standardize the 22/204 at 2.5" or so with a 75gr AMAX. Cheap to shoot, quiet, and .435 bc at 3100 fps.

[AR15barrels]

I'd love to see Hornady standardize the 22/204 at 2.5" or so

Why not just use a 222mag?
It's already a standard cartridge and happens to be what the 204 is based on...

[RyanB]

30* shoulder for brass stability, and since you couldn't fit it in a 222 mag rifle anyway might as well use a more modern case. Besides who makes 222 mag brass anymore?