View Full Version : Israeli M4/AR Goodies website
Doc Safari
08-17-12, 16:10
Lots of cool looking stuff. I read some of the boiler plate on their site and they at least claim it's real IDF gear:
http://www.zahal.org/groups/shop-m-16-m-4-ar-15
Lots of cool looking stuff. I read some of the boiler plate on their site and they at least claim it's real IDF gear:
http://www.zahal.org/groups/shop-m-16-m-4-ar-15
Isn't this just Mako/CAA/EAA gear?
Doc Safari
08-17-12, 16:33
Isn't this just Mako/CAA/EAA gear?
Some of it does look similar I have to admit. I read the "About Us" tab and they say they offer genuine IDF gear, so I'd have to defer to someone with more expertise to tell the difference.
Kickin-Ewoks
08-17-12, 16:35
Isn't this just Mako/CAA/EAA gear?
You are correct; Zahal sells Mako, CAA, and EAA. Much of what you see on their site is marketed as Mako Group on any other U.S. web site.
Doc Safari
08-17-12, 16:37
You are correct; Zahal sells Mako, CAA, and EAA. Much of what you see on their site is marketed as Mako Group on any other U.S. web site.
Seriously? Dang it. Can't trust anybody. Read the first paragraph under the "About" tab and you'd think they were selling genuine Israeli military stuff.
sinlessorrow
08-17-12, 19:10
Seriously? Dang it. Can't trust anybody. Read the first paragraph under the "About" tab and you'd think they were selling genuine Israeli military stuff.
Maco and CAA is legit idf gear.
Hell the new CAA mags just won the contract for mags to IDF.
ETA: IDF loves CAA products btw.
http://www.zahal.org/products/universal-tactical-attachment-for-glock19?path_parent=218285
:)
This thing always makes me laugh.
sinlessorrow
08-17-12, 19:47
Made specifically at the request of certain IDF forces......now you to can look high speed loser.
Disclaimer: granpaw shoes not included.
http://www.makosecurity.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/UTA4.jpg
http://www.zahal.org/products/universal-tactical-attachment-for-glock19?path_parent=218285
:)
This thing always makes me laugh.
Besides being utterly useless, how then is this not considered an SBR? Sorry for ranting...But I did get one of CAA's count down mags just to see how it faired. Works fine, but with Magpul mags cheaper, what's the point? In my opinion, it seems like Mako/CAA/EAA are primarily concerned with esthetics over function, but again that is just my opinion.
The couple of Zahal products I have gotten I really liked. This includes one of the early original flashlight mounts (still in use,) an offset mount (better than my VTAC in some roles because it can b slipped off,) I carried a FOBUS holster for years and one of their mag pouches is still in use for EDC. The LULA and pistol LULA I would count among the top ten weapons accessories invented in the last 50 years. Their slings are my favorite. So some of the stuff might seem gimmicky but some of it is well thought out, well made and well priced.
I ordered one of their t-shirts once though and apparently "XL" means something different in Israel.
Kickin-Ewoks
08-17-12, 21:24
Some of it does look similar I have to admit. I read the "About Us" tab and they say they offer genuine IDF gear, so I'd have to defer to someone with more expertise to tell the difference.
I believe the IDF does use MAKO/EAA/CAA parts. I would be willing to bet they use these parts because they are manufactured in Israel.
I used a few different Mako parts in the past. I did not like their products because they were heavy and felt like they belonged on a toy gun. I stopped using their parts because I assumed they were meant for air soft. They also manufacture some "far fetched" products that just seem foolish.
I asked this question on TOS and heres the response from Mako
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/573008_.html
The IDF does use our stuff. There is a pinned thread in our industry forum with photos of Israeli soldiers with our equipment. There are a couple things to keep in mind though:
1. The IDF does not throw anything usable away. The standard issue stock for the IDF is our GLR-16. That does not mean that they go through all of their old carbines and junk the usable CAR or M4 stocks and install GLR-16s. They put them on new carbines, they replace some old stocks, but they phase them in instead of just replacing all of the old equipment. The emphasis is strongly on training over equipment, and they would rather keep the economy of using the working gear they already have and spend more money to train with it.
This is why you will see tons of beat-up old carbines and rifles with carry handles and no brass deflectors, cut down barrels to make carbines, old CAR stocks, rails added to standard polymer handguards, etc. This is why the PEC ejection port cover was built - so worn uppers that will not hold an ejection port cover closed anymore can still be used by adjusting the height of the PEC's detent. This was also the reason that the UGC noise and movement eliminator was developed. It is not really needed on many weapons, but those beat-up old M16s in Israel were getting pretty sloppy.
Even in the special ops units that tend to have the best gear, you will still see a mixture of older and newer stuff. Like i said, they are just more worried about their ability to use the weapon.
They generally don't buy their own gear and are not allowed to. Fortunately for them, they do not need to as Israel led the world in developing and issuing modern weapon accessories when the US issued nothing but a cleaning kit and nylon sling with the M16. In fact, if you talk to a some of older US SEALs from the 80s and early 90s and before, they all know our stuff and many used it as well as they worked closely with Israel at that time and a lot of this type of equipment was not yet available anywhere else.
2. Most of the images that can easily be found of the IDF soldiers tend to be a bit dated and there are not many current photos of soldiers in some of the special forces units. There are a lot more photos out there of soldiers in support-type units. Keep in mind that these guys are operating in an ongoing war that takes place in their own communities. These guy's families live where they operate and they are a target 24/7, so they tend to avoid publishing a lot of current photos.
Some of our equipment that is in widespread use in Israel include:
GLR-16 Stock - standard issue for IDF and other security forces.
AG-43 Grip - standard issue pistol grip for IDF and security forces.
Mepro M21 reflex sight - standard issue optic for IDF and many security forces.
AG-44 Forward Grip - You will see a lot of these in photos.
UPR16/4 and DRP16/4 Rails for standard polymer handguards - why buy a new handguard when all you need to do is mount a light or foregrip?
HG-S - Standard polymer carbine handguards - built of a tougher polymer than most.
Safety Rods - always used in dry-fire training
Light mounts - these things can be seen in a lot of photos.
Foregrips - FGG-S, T-Grip, REG, FFA-T4 can be seen in a lot of photos.
Magazine carriers - you will see many of these - both the new style and the older one that is now discontinued, but still in use. Others just use an elastic band around the magwell to hold a magazine.
Most of the above equipment is also used widely around the world by foreign militaries, especially the Meprolight optics.
Some of our stuff is more expensive (or not) or very specialized, and the use is more limited or mostly limited to specific types of units:
NFR rail system mentioned in previous posts - used by special forces units like Mat'kal, Duvedevan, Yamam.
TAL-4 Foregrip - used by Special Forces, some other Israeli units, US DEA (it was designed and built for the US DEA)
T-POD foregrip Bipod - used by Israeli special forces (we sell a LOT of these to US units and LE agencies as well).
AK Accessories (Folding stocks, pistol grips, rail systems, barrel mount rails) - These are used by the IDF on Russian AK rifles. The AK has very limited use by the IDF, so use of the AK accessories is limited to these few rifles. Most of the AK accessory production goes to foreign militaries.
Mepro MOR tri-powered reflex sight with visible and IR lasers - very high-end optic, used by special forces soldiers.
There is a ton of other stuff like Galil and Micro Galil accessories, Uzi rails and light mounts, etc. Our Sa vz.58 Accessories are approved for issue by the Czech Republic and can be seen in photos of Czech special forces soldiers operating in the middle east. The above list covers some of the most common things that you can see in photos of IDF soldiers, though.
Oh, and the Front Line holsters, which have led the way worldwide in holster design and innovation since 1962, are used by the IDF and Israeli police and security forces. Most people in the US are unaware of the high quality of Front Line holsters, having only been exposed to another brand of holsters from Israel that are more of a budget-type holster than the Front Line holsters which are considered the high-end holsters in Israel. In Israel, many troops have some flexibility in their choice of holsters, and often are issued one holster for duty and another for off-duty carry, or one for use with their combat gear and another type for operating under cover, so you will see a wide variety of front line holsters in use by the IDF, including a lot of concealment-type holsters, like the Yamam IWB holster which is one of the issue holsters of the Yamam counter-terror/HRT unit.
As far as quality, all of our products meet or exceed MIL-SPEC requirements and most have a lifetime warranty. (certain optics/night sights have item-specific warranties). Materials are of the highest quality and are chosen for the specific application. For example, different polymer products use different types of polymer based on what will be strongest for that particular application. This increases production costs, but results in a superior product. When people say, I saw X company's product and it wasn't as good as Y company's product, you can generally discount that person's claims unless he works for a test lab or something and has the expertise to actually do a scientific comparison. For example, the polymer used in our Gen 2 T-PODs is visibly different than other polymers, and has led people to claim that it is an inferior polymer because it looks different than the polymer used in a stock or grip. The reality is that it is a much more advanced polymer that is quite a bit more expensive, but is the strongest available polymer for that application. A stock, on the other hand, may be best built with another type of polymer.
I use thier cheap velcro sling mount for standard handguards on my Colt. It's tight, I havent broken it yet.
http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt86/splittiebus66/IMG_1818-2.jpg
This guy has one. He tried way harder to break his.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/403900_10151112725177650_1201979329_n.jpg
Please, please tell me that, that is just the angle of the picture and not the actual barrel... And here I thought Marines were the only ones who could break absolutely anything. If only I could ask him how he managed to do that (Got run over by a truck maybe?) and if it now acts like the old German STG44 Krummlauf.
No thats a service/upgrade you can have done to your AR15/M4 by the Mako group. ;)
This guy has one. He tried way harder to break his.
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/403900_10151112725177650_1201979329_n.jpg
What the mess?
GeorgiaBoy
08-18-12, 02:57
What the mess?
Note the damage to the A2 FH.
As previously stated - they don't get rid of anything. Why send a trooper out on extreme training with a functioning weapon to risk damaging in a fall, air drop, rappelling... when there is a perfectly good, ****ed up one to lug around? Same gear, same weight, just no need to fire.
I think it got run over by an APC. Shit happens in a warzone, especially with a conscripted army.
Littlelebowski
08-18-12, 11:39
Anything Israeli is automatically better than American gear like Magpul, KAC, LMT, Blue Force etc.
Failure2Stop
08-18-12, 12:45
Anything Israeli is automatically better than American gear like Magpul, KAC, LMT, Blue Force etc.
I don't know where else to get Kosher parts.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
Doc Safari
08-18-12, 14:07
Anything Israeli is automatically better than American gear like Magpul, KAC, LMT, Blue Force etc.
Okay, I'm confused. At first I thought this thread was going to the "it's airsoft junk" route. Now it looks like it's all GTG?
Eurodriver
08-18-12, 14:23
Okay, I'm confused. At first I thought this thread was going to the "it's airsoft junk" route. Now it looks like it's all GTG?
Sarcasm - you missed it.
Littlelebowski
08-18-12, 14:29
Okay, I'm confused. At first I thought this thread was going to the "it's airsoft junk" route. Now it looks like it's all GTG?
As a gun forum commando myself,it's often tough to choose between being an Israeli or Soviet/Russian fellator. Let your heart be your guide.
Doc Safari
08-18-12, 15:22
As a gun forum commando myself,it's often tough to choose between being an Israeli or Soviet/Russian fellator. Let your heart be your guide.
Methinks y'all are funnin' me. :D
I don't know where else to get Kosher parts.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
WELL played!... let me wipe my screen off....
Ok, yea - israeli does not mean anything. heck, arent blackthorne rifle made in the US? So is colt, so you cant make blanket statements. If you want quality ar parts, stick with the known brands.
WELL played!... let me wipe my screen off....
Ok, yea - israeli does not mean anything. heck, arent blackthorne rifle made in the US? So is colt, so you cant make blanket statements. If you want quality ar parts, stick with the known brands.
I suppose this means that the Tavor rifle is no good as well?
DeltaSierra
08-19-12, 14:09
I suppose this means that the Tavor rifle is no good as well?
Well, I for one don't really expect it to be anything more that a "cool" toy for some...
Just look at a couple other native Israeli designed weapons (think, Uzi, or Galil) and then tell me just why you think that the TAR-21 is going to be much different....
sinlessorrow
08-19-12, 14:58
Well, I for one don't really expect it to be anything more that a "cool" toy for some...
Just look at a couple other native Israeli designed weapons (think, Uzi, or Galil) and then tell me just why you think that the TAR-21 is going to be much different....
Its also a bullpup which certainly aren't ideal. I'm sure it's a fine rifle for their uses though considering how ancient their M4's are.
I always thought the Mako stuff seemed kind of on the cheap side. I must say Frontline makes a good holster though.
As previously stated - they don't get rid of anything. Why send a trooper out on extreme training with a functioning weapon to risk damaging in a fall, air drop, rappelling... when there is a perfectly good, ****ed up one to lug around? Same gear, same weight, just no need to fire.
Because it bugs me.
Littlelebowski
08-19-12, 20:30
I suppose this means that the Tavor rifle is no good as well?
No, it's awesome. Israelis use it.
sinlessorrow
08-19-12, 21:18
No, it's awesome. Israelis use it.
:sarcastic:
I think I've ordered from Zahal whatever to get IDF slings.
IDF guns do have some junk on them sometimes. But the Slings are awesome.
chapperjoe
08-20-12, 09:14
I wouldn't believe a single word from any marketer of Israeli products for one simple reason: It's too easy to make claims of "IDF issue" "The sayerets use it!".... and back it up with a buddy (since EVERYONE is IDF there) in uniform using that piece of gear.
The IDF goes through crazy amounts of "idea gear" lets call it, and never really settles on much, other than platforms. Some of the gear being sold here has already been passed over to the next incremental improvement over there.
(I have pictures of friends of friends using commercially purchased American military accessories that the IDF has never ever ever purchased. These companies will not hesitate to use pictures such as those as marketing material.)
The IDF is the epitome of everything this particular website espouses: they are using their gear so much and so hard that most active guys are too damned busy to care about the details that we have the luxury of contemplating, e.g."how many QD sling attachments on each plane of a 3-dimensional axis does my stock have?"
the last maneuver effort Israeli tried in lebanon... they got spanked. by small bands of semi literates. hardly a shining example of their silly cheap widgets mattering
Littlelebowski
08-20-12, 21:42
the last maneuver effort Israeli tried in lebanon... they got spanked. by small bands of semi literates. hardly a shining example of their silly cheap widgets mattering
Just like the vaunted Russians and Ossetia.
the last maneuver effort Israeli tried in lebanon... they got spanked. by small bands of semi literates. hardly a shining example of their silly cheap widgets mattering
Hit the nail on the head. Lebowski too......
Poor training methodologies/questionable leadership/ and or unmotivated soldiers will make all the gear in the world worthless.
Anyway this thread is detouring hard. The stuff on Zahal ranks from totally worthless trash, to WTF were they thinking, to some useful stuff. Like any other manufacturer's site use your head and make your own judgements whether or not it fits your needs and gives you a warm fuzzy man chubby.
:D
I suppose this means that the Tavor rifle is no good as well?
Did I say Isaeli stuff is inherently trash or did you quote the wrong person?
Let me reword this. I dont subscribe to racism so where or by whome its made does not dictate quality... the quality does. To answer your question:
I have not used one, nor did I say Isreali stuff is junk. I can tell you, the "made in Israel" writting is not what makes or breaks it... its how its made.
Maybe my sarcasm meter is miscalibrated (i got little's stuff, though.)
Submariner
08-21-12, 14:57
I don't know where else to get Kosher parts.
Isn't there a rabbi at the Colt Hartford plant to certify parts as kosher? :secret:
The Izzies use an awful lot of Colts.
Isn't there a rabbi at the Colt Hartford plant to certify parts as kosher? :secret:
The Izzies use an awful lot of Colts.
I am actually curious as to whether the majority of those Colts are from foreign military sales (surplused rifles) or whether they are from direct commercial sales with Colt. I remember when I was there in 08 seeing a lot of A1/A2 carbines, but saw some newer M4s in use as well.
I am actually curious as to whether the majority of those Colts are from foreign military sales (surplused rifles) or whether they are from direct commercial sales with Colt. I remember when I was there in 08 seeing a lot of A1/A2 carbines, but saw some newer M4s in use as well.
AFAIK those are from military aid that US sends to Israel. There is restriction that this aid can pay only for US manufactured equipment.
I'm almost embarrassed to defend CAA, because some of their stuff really is silly.
However, I have a CAA stock saddle. It was a PITA to install, but it hasn't caused any problems and it's fabulously comfortable.
I think the add-on rail on my 2nd generation Glock is also CAA. It also hasn't caused any problems.
YMMV...
sinlessorrow
08-27-12, 08:16
Well its official, CAA is the new supplier of IDF mags.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/08/27/idf-officially-adopts-polymer-caa-tactical-mag-17/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheFirearmBlog+%28The+Firearm+Blog%29&utm_content=FaceBook
Well its official, CAA is the new supplier of IDF mags.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/08/27/idf-officially-adopts-polymer-caa-tactical-mag-17/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheFirearmBlog+%28The+Firearm+Blog%29&utm_content=FaceBook
Interesting article. First, they differentiate plastic from polymeric. Plastic is a subcatagory of polymer, seems they said that to make it sound like there was more variety than there was.
2nd, what kind of aluminum mag lasts 7 cycles, then craps out.
Something is not adding up, or it was lost in translation.
sinlessorrow
08-27-12, 23:10
Interesting article. First, they differentiate plastic from polymeric. Plastic is a subcatagory of polymer, seems they said that to make it sound like there was more variety than there was.
2nd, what kind of aluminum mag lasts 7 cycles, then craps out.
Something is not adding up, or it was lost in translation.
here is the website they got it fromhttp://www.idf.il/1283-16876-en/Dover.aspx
I do feel bad for them though, I would hate to have CAA issued to me and I have a feeling their testing was pretty biased to a made here company like CAA.
I'll always maintain that to some portions of the tactical world that "Israeli/IDF" is the same as "Ancient Chinese" is to martial arts.
:rolleyes:
Interesting article. First, they differentiate plastic from polymeric. Plastic is a subcatagory of polymer, seems they said that to make it sound like there was more variety than there was.
2nd, what kind of aluminum mag lasts 7 cycles, then craps out.
Something is not adding up, or it was lost in translation.
In the comments section, someone named Joe Schmoe commented about what some General said about the time frame in terms of average life span of an aluminium magazine. "7 times = 3 months in IDF front line duty". The math seems a little strange. What does he mean by "7 times"??? 3 months for hard use seems kind of low in terms of time of usage.
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