View Full Version : 10.5" Issues
Shalashaska
08-17-12, 21:29
So I'm having some problems with my Noveske 10.5" that I can't figure out. Most of them come when suppressed with my M4-2K.
The build pieces that might be contributing to the issues:
Noveske 10.5"
Geissele S3G
Core15 NiB BCG
Only ammo I've ran through it so far is American Eagle (red box, 30rds to a box on strippers) and Hornady 55gr FMJ/BT.
When I first got it, it would sometimes fail to go into battery with or without the suppressor. It would fire then the next round would chamber up to about the shoulder of the casing. This would happen maybe once every 20-30 rounds. This was running an H2 buffer.
I tried using a H buffer and the gun still wouldn't go into battery sometimes but the bolt would close much farther (I couldn't see brass whereas before I could). I'd basically just have to tap the forward assist to get it to lock up. This was still suppressed or unsuppressed. However, now the gun would sometimes double when firing suppressed. http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_thinking.gif
Today I went out and tried a H3 buffer and the H2 again. Unsuppressed, the gun ran great today; no issues with chambering and the brass was ejecting at a nice 3:00-3:30 position. However, when I put the suppressor on, the gun would fire and then fail to reset the trigger. It would pick up a new round and chamber just fine but the trigger wouldn't reset. This was with the H3 buffer and only happened suppressed. I took the magazine out and loaded one round at a time for 5 rounds and the rifle locked the bolt back every time. I'd load up 5 and it would fail to reset again every 2-3 rounds.
I swapped out the H3 for the H2 again and had the same issues as before (fail to go completely into battery and firing doubles every now and then).
So....I'm not sure where to start trouble shooting. Do you guys think there's an issue with the NiB BCG? I have the original one from Noveske that I haven't tried yet. I could throw that in there. I think my biggest concern was the occasional doubling. I did some research when this happened the first time and a few people said it was unintentional bump fire with the lite trigger and short reset. Today I was very deliberate in holding the trigger back after firing and then resetting it. It still doubled; I'm confident I wasn't bump firing.
Anyway, any help/ideas you guys could throw my way would be appreciated.
TLDR:
-10.5" Won't go into battery, won't reset trigger, and fires doubles. Both suppressed and unsuppressed.
-Tried H, H2, H3 buffers
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/5365/noveskew.jpg
I'd suggest using a different BCG, the NiB carriers are larger than a normal carrier and hence, "out of spec" or too big.
Obviously plenty of other people have success with them, but it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
get a bravo company carrier, some synthetic motor oil, and dump it in there.
1. Try a different trigger.
2. I would also try a carbine buffer as well.
3. I would try the original BCG as well.
4. I would also try other ammo.
Remember when troubleshooting you want to isolate all the issues. That means start with the obvious and work around. Do not change everything and then test it, because then you will be right back where you started. Bring the items with you to a place where you can shoot and then test it after swapping each item out.
glockshooter
08-18-12, 10:44
The trigger issues you are talking about is a issue that seems to show up with the S3G trigger. I have two of them and it is not doubling it is bump firing. The reset on the trigger is so short that if the rifle is not shoulder properly/ snugly it will bump fire. I have experienced it mostly shooting prone while taking precision shots that I wanted as little of me affecting the gun and in unconventional positions that don't allow me to get the rifle shouldered firmly. Geiselle will send you a heavier trigger spring if you call them that will help also.
As IG said you keep trying the same things and aren't getting the changes you want. You have to try different things. You tried heavier buffers, so there is only one other option. Try lighter. My 10.5 has run suppressed and unsuppressed with carbine and H1 buffers without issues, so you might try that.
Matt
jonconsiglio
08-18-12, 11:51
I have an LMT 10.5" and had a Noveske 10.5". I run/ran them suppressed quite a bit and typically with 855or 193 and occasionally with TAP and TSX. My LMT runs well with an H or H2 buffer and the Noveske better with the H2. But, the Noveske seemed more finicky when suppressed, possibly due to the slightly larger gas port, but I really shouldn't speculate.
Now, I noticed both were much more consistent with ammo (very rarely I'd run Wolf or Brown Bear) and whether it was suppressed or not when I switched the receiver extension the the Vltor A5. I would typically always have a new carbine action spring and a second buffer in my bag with these uppers. With the A5, I don't worry about it and the rifle action spring lasts a good bit longer.
I'm not telling you to run out and buy the A5, but it did make my 10.5" uppers as reliable as my 14.5" and 16" rifles and also made it feel more consistent. With the carbine RE, I often felt that I was on the edge of failure when I changed any one thing, but with the A5, it always feels strong and consistent.
I wish I could diagnose your problem, but without seeing the rifle and testing one thing at a time as IG said, I really don't know. Good luck man.
Shalashaska
08-19-12, 15:49
Thanks for the suggestions gentlemen. I'm going to the range again in the morning to see if I can troubleshoot this a bit more. I'll try swapping out the BCG first and also bring along the regular trigger; try and narrow it down one thing at a time as IG said.
Can anybody explain to me/speculate why the gun would (seemingly) run well with the H3 buffer unsuppressed and then choke when adding the M4-2K? How could it fire and completely chamber the next round but not reset the trigger? Just trying to understand/learn.
The trigger issues you are talking about is a issue that seems to show up with the S3G trigger. I have two of them and it is not doubling it is bump firing. *snip*
As I said, I read about this before and I was very deliberate in pulling the trigger and holding then resetting. I'm pretty confident I was not unintentionally bump firing but, maybe I got lax during a string of fire. During this last range trip though, I remember thinking "Ok well I guess that eliminates bump firing" when it happened. I was being very conscientious with my trigger pull.
Also, I've never had the gun double/bump fire unsuppressed. The only time it's ever happened (4 or 5 times) has been with my M4-2K attached. I don't understand that either unless I really am bump firing and it's just been coincidence that I was firing suppressed. :confused:
My money is on the BCG being the culprit. Everything from not going into battery to the trigger not re-setting, to the doubling all link back to one common part: The BCG.
I'll bet if you throw the Noveske back in there, your problems go away.
What action spring?
What extractor spring? With O-ring?
It sounds like you are allowing the gun to bump fire, and it's easier with that specific trigger. This would be the doubling and what you describe as the hammer not resetting. What I suspect is is happening is the hammer is being released before the bolt is in battery so the firing pin does not contact the primer.
fallenromeo
08-20-12, 15:22
My money is on the BCG being the culprit. Everything from not going into battery to the trigger not re-setting, to the doubling all link back to one common part: The BCG.
I'll bet if you throw the Noveske back in there, your problems go away.
That was my first thought too. Interested to see how this plays out and what ends up being the culprit.
Shalashaska
08-20-12, 15:42
Well you guys that said it was the BCG were right.
I went to the range today after throwing in the Noveske BCG and the gun ran like a champ both suppressed and unsuppressed. I only had time to burn 100 rounds but I didn't have a single problem, whereas before I couldn't get through a 20rd mag without one or two issues.
I did not try running the other bolt in the Noveske carrier or vice versa (mostly because I was pressed for time). So I'm still not sure what's out of spec but I'll contact Core15 and see if they want it back to inspect or something. I've read that they have some pretty good customer service.
Anyway, hopefully this was truly the problem and I can get on with enjoying my rifle. Thanks to everyone for the help/suggestions.
I think I can help narrow down the op's problem. I'm interested in this as well. I have had identical problems with my 10.5 and a sd3g trigger. I actually moved the trigger to another rifle and replaced it with a s3g. This made it better, but I am still having the reset issue. Fwiw, I know my doubling was due to bump fire, but the failure to reset makes me crazy.
I know Geissele will give me a heavier spring set, but won't that make my trigger feel heavier? I bought these triggers because I wanted light and short.
I have a factory DD mk-18, 10.3". I use the original bolt carrier and a h2 buffer. My suppressor is also an AAC m4-2000.
Looks like I was typing as the oP was hitting enter. Perhaps we have different problems with similar symptoms.
I have. Noticed that I am more likely to have the failure to reset problem when I'm trying to fire fast multiples. It may happen 2/3 time in a mag if I am shooting fast.
I think I can help narrow down the op's problem. I'm interested in this as well. I have had identical problems with my 10.5 and a sd3g trigger. I actually moved the trigger to another rifle and replaced it with a s3g. This made it better, but I am still having the reset issue. Fwiw, I know my doubling was due to bump fire, but the failure to reset makes me crazy.
I know Geissele will give me a heavier spring set, but won't that make my trigger feel heavier? I bought these triggers because I wanted light and short.
I have a factory DD mk-18, 10.3". I use the original bolt carrier and a h2 buffer. My suppressor is also an AAC m4-2000.
My money for this is the H2 buffer slowing the carrier down too much when you don't have the back-pressure from the suppressor. The bolt is short-stroking and not pushing the hammer back far enough for it to catch on the disconnector. Try going back to the "H" buffer that came in the gun from the factory and see if that fixes it.
(FWIW, I also have a factory DD MK18). My buddy (Karmapolice on here) has a factory DD MK18 upper on a KAC lower. He was experiencing short-stroking that caused failures to eject when running an H2 in his lower. Switching back to the H buffer cured it.
Well you guys that said it was the BCG were right.
I went to the range today after throwing in the Noveske BCG and the gun ran like a champ both suppressed and unsuppressed. I only had time to burn 100 rounds but I didn't have a single problem, whereas before I couldn't get through a 20rd mag without one or two issues.
I did not try running the other bolt in the Noveske carrier or vice versa (mostly because I was pressed for time). So I'm still not sure what's out of spec but I'll contact Core15 and see if they want it back to inspect or something. I've read that they have some pretty good customer service.
Anyway, hopefully this was truly the problem and I can get on with enjoying my rifle. Thanks to everyone for the help/suggestions.
Just see if you can get your money back on that Core15 junk and drive on. Obviously something is made out of spec. Not worth the hassle now that you've got the gun working.
My money for this is the H2 buffer slowing the carrier down too much when you don't have the back-pressure from the suppressor. The bolt is short-stroking and not pushing the hammer back far enough for it to catch on the disconnector. Try going back to the "H" buffer that came in the gun from the factory and see if that fixes it.
(FWIW, I also have a factory DD MK18). My buddy (Karmapolice on here) has a factory upper on a KAC lower. He was experiencing short-stroking that caused failures to eject when running an H2 in his lower. Switching back to the H buffer cured it.
Its worth a shot. All the failure to reset issue for me happen while shooting suppressed.
Unsuppressed the only problem I have is paying attention to my trigger control to avoid unintended bumpfire.
When the hammer doesn't "reset", do you have a live round in the chamber?
Yes there is a live round in the chamber when this happens.
Shalashaska
08-20-12, 20:47
My money for this is the H2 buffer slowing the carrier down too much when you don't have the back-pressure from the suppressor. The bolt is short-stroking and not pushing the hammer back far enough for it to catch on the disconnector. Try going back to the "H" buffer that came in the gun from the factory and see if that fixes it.
Can the gun short stroke enough to chamber another round but not reset the hammer?
With a live round in the chamber, it sounds like a bolt bounce issue.
ClearedHot
08-20-12, 20:56
My money for this is the H2 buffer slowing the carrier down too much when you don't have the back-pressure from the suppressor. The bolt is short-stroking and not pushing the hammer back far enough for it to catch on the disconnector. Try going back to the "H" buffer that came in the gun from the factory and see if that fixes it.
(FWIW, I also have a factory DD MK18). My buddy (Karmapolice on here) has a factory DD MK18 upper on a KAC lower. He was experiencing short-stroking that caused failures to eject when running an H2 in his lower. Switching back to the H buffer cured it.
IIRC, the DD MK18's have smaller gas ports (< .060")and that could be the reason why they don't run so well with the H2 and heavier buffers.
The Geissele S3G triggers are known to double / bump fire if you do not have a solid grip on the gun. I have also had issues with the trigger not resetting while shooting prone with my SD3G trigger.
Here are some options:
1.) Always have a firm high grip on the rifle
2.) Call Geissele and tell them your issue. They have a new trigger that I have not seen in any advertisement or on this forum yet. It is called the Super V. It is made for VTAC and is a Super 3 Gun Trigger with about a half a pound heavier trigger pull. All it is is a trigger spring swap. I have played with one and it is quite crisp and feels like a fast GI trigger. I believe this will solve your trigger issues along with you changing out your BCG.
With a live round in the chamber, it sounds like a bolt bounce issue.
Pretty much the only explanation with the hammer down on a live round is bolt bounce or timing. Being bump fire it's probably more likely to be hammer follow (timing) before the bolt is in battery but it could be bolt bounce out of battery.
Pretty much the only explanation with the hammer down on a live round is bolt bounce or timing. Being bump fire it's probably more likely to be hammer follow (timing) before the bolt is in battery but it could be bolt bounce out of battery.
Thanks Todd,
This happens under normal shooting, ie. not bump fire... Although it can happen while bumpfiring. that being said what is the remedy? Again, it only happens while suppressed.
I appreciate your help and did not intend to hijack the thread.
The hammer cocks before the bolt travels far enough to the rear to pick up a new round, so it has to be the hammer being released.
Bump firing can happen with enough recoil and a light enough trigger on your shoulder, it doesn't have to be on the hip. Suppressed you have more recoil.
I would focus on keeping the trigger depressed to the rear on each shot through the recoil to see if it goes away, or just try putting the standard trigger back in. You may also try to reduce the recoil with a heavier buffer suppressed.
Where is brass ejecting with the suppressor?
One possibility with the suppressor is pretty high bolt carrier speed.
It could bottom out pretty hard in the extension during full recoil, knocking the weapon backward, resetting the sensitive trigger and causing bump fire.
fallenromeo
08-22-12, 10:03
OP, I am just curious, why did you swap the BCG before you ever fired it as is? Noveske is a top notch company, why would you think that the BCG that came with the upper would be insufficient in the first place?
Shalashaska
08-22-12, 16:24
Oh I realize Noveske is quality and had zero doubts that their BCG would be insufficient. The only reason I threw in this other BCG was to try out the NiB coating for ease of cleaning when running the gun suppressed.
It was my first experience with a coated carrier and I just wanted to try something different. I know some people claim you can run the NiB BCG's without or with minimal lube but I ran it as wet as I do my regular carriers. I just wanted to try it to help speed up the cleaning process after suppressed fire.
I swapped the BCG when I first got the rifle because I was planning on either selling the Noveske BCG or keeping it as a spare. Glad I kept it around...
ETA:
*snip*
2.) Call Geissele and tell them your issue. They have a new trigger that I have not seen in any advertisement or on this forum yet. It is called the Super V. It is made for VTAC and is a Super 3 Gun Trigger with about a half a pound heavier trigger pull. All it is is a trigger spring swap. I have played with one and it is quite crisp and feels like a fast GI trigger. I believe this will solve your trigger issues along with you changing out your BCG.
Thanks. I called Geissele today and they're sending me out one of the heavier springs to try.
Where is brass ejecting with the suppressor?
One possibility with the suppressor is pretty high bolt carrier speed.
It could bottom out pretty hard in the extension during full recoil, knocking the weapon backward, resetting the sensitive trigger and causing bump fire.
I put about 200rds thru it today. Ejection is very consistent at 2:00.
I first used the h2 buffer to establish a baseline of malfunctions. (the malfunction I am talking about is the failure to reset the trigger) Malfs occurred about every 5th round.
I switched to a "H" buffer. Malfs occurred about every third round.
I hate to admit it, because I truly love the feel of the s3g and sd3g triggers, but I never had any problems with this setup before I switched from my Chip McCormick trigger. (I may know the answer but not want to hear it)
Shalashaska
08-22-12, 16:37
Sounds exactly like (one of) the problems I was having. Mine was ejecting fine and would fully chamber a new round, but the trigger wouldn't reset. :confused: It only happened when suppressed.
Do you have another BCG to try?
Sounds exactly like (one of) the problems I was having. Mine was ejecting fine and would fully chamber a new round, but the trigger wouldn't reset. :confused: It only happened when suppressed.
Do you have another BCG to try?
I'm pretty sure I can rule out a problem with my bolt carrier. It is the original DD unit and has never caused me any problems before I changed triggers.
Shalashaska
08-22-12, 17:10
Gotcha. Well you could try out one of the heavier springs from Geissele. I know what you mean about liking the lite pull but they said it only adds like 1/2 to 1#.
Update. Today I switched back to the Chip McCormick trigger. I have a reliable suppressed SBR again.
No major loss as I have put the Geissele in a longer rifle. I can't really explain WHY it was happening (voodoo maybe) but the problem is solved.
Thanks to everyone for trying to help me.
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