View Full Version : New FBI 9 mm load
9 x 19 mm CALIBER AMMUNITION CONTRACTS
CONTRACT NUMBER J-FBI-08-104
The Federal Bureau of Investigation has just awarded contracts for 9 x 19 mm caliber ammunition to Olin Winchester. The ammunition on this contract includes the following items:
SERVICE: Q4364 – 147 grain, encapsulated, bonded hollow point bullet, and a standard primer.
TRAINING: Q4362 – 124 grain, encapsulated full metal jacket. This round uses a fully encapsulated (no exposed lead) bullet with a lead core, and a standard primer.
TRAINING – REDUCED LEAD: Q4358 – 147 grain, encapsulated full metal jacket, lead free primer. This round uses a fully encapsulated (no exposed lead) bullet with a lead core, and a lead free primer. Based on the design of this round, there is no particulate, airborne lead upon firing, making this an ideal round for use in many training environments where a reduced lead signature is desired (such as indoor ranges).
FRANGIBLE – LEAD FREE: Q4346 – 90 grain, frangible, lead free primer. This round uses a lead free, frangible bullet and a lead free primer. This round is designed for use on steel targets, to reduce or eliminate “splash-back” from bullet fragments.
The following agencies are contractually authorized buyers:
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Drug Enforcement administration
United States Marshals Service
Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives
Bureau of Prisons
Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General
Department of State, Diplomatic Security Service
Internal Revenue Service, Criminal Investigation Division
Department of Energy
Other Federal agencies may order, if they obtain prior approval from the FBI.
YukonGlocker
01-29-08, 19:11
Interesting.
LukeMacGillie
01-29-08, 19:54
Old news for those of us on the authorized buyers list:D
OK not really, was told on Friday.
I cant wait to get some of this.
Years ago, we had those Winchester 147 subsonics(FBI load) very poor street performance. I'm talking a chest shot and the guy looks at the officer and says " don't do that again" Technically, it worked, becaused he stopped and gave up, walked to the ambulance and to the ER. There were others as well.
I'm hoping these work better for them?
Velocity and Energy performance? Subsonic?
"Years ago, we had those Winchester 147 subsonics(FBI load) very poor street performance."
If you had the early Winchester OSM load, then I am sure you know it was designed for use in suppressed MP-5's for precision head shots, not for terminal performance in chest shots from handguns. On the other hand, most of the robust expanding 147 gr loads that were designed for handgun use have worked very well.
Yup, that's what happens when the good ole boy is the expert! They were very accurate.
I believe this is the load: http://www.winchester.com/lawenforcement/doc/LEDocs/RA9B.doc
decodeddiesel
04-12-09, 23:17
Huh, I just picked up 100 rounds of Winchester 147gr Bonded "Supreme Elite" PDX1. I had never seen it before and snagged some when I bought my M&P9c. The box is marked "S9MMPDB1". I wonder if this is similar ammo to what the FBI purchased? I'll tell you it is very accurate out of my 9mm pistols, but it had a nasty bright white muzzle flash out of my little M&P compact. I hope they added a flash retardant for the duty ammo. :eek:
G34Shooter
04-13-09, 08:08
Is 9mm issued as often as .40 for the FBI now?
9 x 19 mm CALIBER AMMUNITION CONTRACTS
CONTRACT NUMBER J-FBI-08-104
The Federal Bureau of Investigation has just awarded contracts for 9 x 19 mm caliber ammunition to Olin Winchester. The ammunition on this contract includes the following items:
SERVICE: Q4364 – 147 grain, encapsulated, bonded hollow point bullet, and a standard primer.
TRAINING: Q4362 – 124 grain, encapsulated full metal jacket. This round uses a fully encapsulated (no exposed lead) bullet with a lead core, and a standard primer.
TRAINING – REDUCED LEAD: Q4358 – 147 grain, encapsulated full metal jacket, lead free primer. This round uses a fully encapsulated (no exposed lead) bullet with a lead core, and a lead free primer. Based on the design of this round, there is no particulate, airborne lead upon firing, making this an ideal round for use in many training environments where a reduced lead signature is desired (such as indoor ranges).
FRANGIBLE – LEAD FREE: Q4346 – 90 grain, frangible, lead free primer. This round uses a lead free, frangible bullet and a lead free primer. This round is designed for use on steel targets, to reduce or eliminate “splash-back” from bullet fragments.
The following agencies are contractually authorized buyers:
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Drug Enforcement administration
United States Marshals Service
Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Explosives
Bureau of Prisons
Department of Justice Office of the Inspector General
Department of State, Diplomatic Security Service
Internal Revenue Service, Criminal Investigation Division
Department of Energy
Other Federal agencies may order, if they obtain prior approval from the FBI.
One of my best friends is a Marshal, he said that they are only allowed .40. I wonder what they will be buying 9mm for.
Is 9mm issued as often as .40 for the FBI now?
No, but it's an option for certain agents.
One of my best friends is a Marshal, he said that they are only allowed .40. I wonder what they will be buying 9mm for.
They probably won't. But the contract is open if they need to. It's just duplicate language from the Bureaus concurrent .40 S&W ammo procurement, which those same agencies can buy through.
This is basically an improved Ranger-T bullet, with the exposed lead at the base being covered and the core bonded to the jacket.
DOE, I wonder what else is on that contract? I'm gonna get fired, I know it:D
Bob
seem like a weak loads compared to Ferderal BP9LE proven history.
"seem like a weak loads compared to Ferderal BP9LE proven history."
What?
Never mind, I don't want to know.
Bob,
maybe the Bureau's new ammo with solve your problems? I'm going to bet the folks at BRU tested it in their guns. But, they don't run lights on G22s that I'm aware of.
"seem like a weak loads compared to Ferderal BP9LE proven history."
What?
Never mind, I don't want to know.
Bob,
maybe the Bureau's new ammo with solve your problems? I'm going to bet the folks at BRU tested it in their guns. But, they don't run lights on G22s that I'm aware of.
I think happypants was refering to Federal 9BPLE, kids :D
check out test #2
http://frag.110mb.com/
I think happypants was refering to Federal 9BPLE, kids :D
check out test #2
http://frag.110mb.com/
Ummm, yeah. I gathered.
I'm familiar with the loading, carried it about 20 years ago for a short while.
The "Ferderal" 115gr +P+ isn't really a good duty load choice anymore due to insufficient penetration on many tests, and a habit of failing to expand in heavy clothing.
It may have been the cat's ass back in the day, but technology has passed it by some time ago. Even our Federal/CCI LE ammo rep does not recommend it for duty use. This ammo exists only because people still buy it.
Were I to go with a +P+ round as my choice, and I do, it would be a better "loads" with "proven history", the Winchester 127gr Ranger-T.
Nothing wrong with a good 147gr 9mm, both the Winchester Ranger-T and Federal HST lines are very good ammo.
The bonded load here in question looks quite good to me, I would carry it without reservation for duty ammo, after appropriate function testing in my duty pistol.
Mainly based on the FBI's work, influenced by Dr. Fackler's work, it would seem like the consensus these days is that the hyper-quick 115 grain rounds are usually poor choices due to not reliably reaching the 12-18" penetration standard, but as far as the "good stuff", are most professionals tipping toward the 147grainers (Ranger T's, Gold Dots, HST), the 124 +p's (same), or the 127 +p+ Ranger T's? Since it seems like all of these newer rounds meet the FBI's standards, does it become largely academic to compare these, or do some agencies choose one of these loads based on a quantifiable criteria?
I'm guessing that the FBI goes for the 147 grain Ranger T's for their superior cross sectional density and superior penetration including barrier penetration and respectable expansion. The FBI choice seems hard to argue with unless you are someone like Massad Ayoob that still makes an argument for lighter and faster and handgun wound mechanisms that go beyond the permanent wound cavity (something I personally have a hard time believing, so put me in the Fackler camp).
I'm guessing that the FBI goes for the 147 grain Ranger T's for their superior cross sectional density and superior penetration including barrier penetration and respectable expansion. The FBI choice seems hard to argue with unless you are someone like Massad Ayoob that still makes an argument for lighter and faster and handgun wound mechanisms that go beyond the permanent wound cavity (something I personally have a hard time believing, so put me in the Fackler camp).
Interesting, as Doc Roberts seems to prefer the Cor-Bon DPX (Barnes bullet) +P load for the 9mm.
In fact I believe I have read Dr Roberts and several other folks like the DPX load in what ever caliber available.
Got that solid copper Barnes bullet thing going on.
Go figure.
Fred
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