View Full Version : Which Gas Piston Upper? Bushy, POF, LWRC
Dr. Pretorius
01-29-08, 23:11
Hello, I'm looking to buy a Gas Piston complete upper. I have my lower ready to go and a tax refund on the way. My local dealer can get the Bushmaster in a couple of days from a distributor that has them in stock. The price is $1,019.00. I hate to wait, so I'm leaning towards getting the Bushy since the POF and LWRC are on a 14 week backorder. This rifle will be used for casual shooting of Beer Cans and Paper Targets mostly and the killing of Coyotes here and there. I like the Flattop uppers and standard M4 handguards, I dont care much for the tactical rails and and accessory stuff. I just want a Stock looking M4 with 16" barrel and a EOtech sitting on top. I hear the Bushy is the POF without the Chromed BCG and fluted barrel. I'm not interested in the add on units like the Ares or PWS since I don't own a DI AR-15 currently.
So, my question is Should I go for the Bushmaster or should I wait and get the POF or the LWRC?
If any of you guys have one of these Systems and can share your experiences that would be great.
The Bushmaster piston upper is basically them using POF's gas cylinder, piston and op rod with everything else theirs like the receiver, (non silicon nickel coated) barrel choice, two piece BCG and bolt.
There more similar to POF's earlier generations before POF switched over to their current one piece billet machined BCG's and started using the silicon nickel coating they use now.
I recommend just getting a POF upper (as an owner) if you prefer the design as they are more advanced in the growth of the system and have nicer features.
POF is also starting to use new barrels that are salt bath nitrided and supposedly provide an even long lasting barrel than chromeplated and better corrosion resistance.
I personally like POF's design much better than LWRC's which is why I bought one instead and have been very happy I did since.
http://www.pof-usa.com/upper/upperreceiver.htm
If you give Chris a call at POF, he'll be able to tell you who they just sent upper orders out to and would likely have some in stock.
Dr. Pretorius
01-29-08, 23:52
The Bushmaster piston upper is basically them using POF's gas cylinder, piston and op rod with everything else theirs like the receiver, (non silicon nickel coated) barrel choice, two piece BCG and bolt.
There more similar to POF's earlier generations before POF switched over to their current one piece billet machined BCG's and started using the silicon nickel coating they use now.
I recommend just getting a POF upper (as an owner) if you prefer the design as they are more advanced in the growth of the system and have nicer features.
POF is also starting to use new barrels that are salt bath nitrided and supposedly provide an even long lasting barrel than chromeplated and better corrosion resistance.
I personally like POF's design much better than LWRC's which is why I bought one instead and have been very happy I did since.
http://www.pof-usa.com/upper/upperreceiver.htm
If you give Chris a call at POF, he'll be able to tell you who they just sent upper orders out to and would likely have some in stock.
Awesome, I'll give Chris a call. I appreciate your help.
TUNNEL RAT 33
01-30-08, 00:15
the POF is a awesome rifle , the wait however is going to kill you - at least 6 months
A Bushy piston upper at a local gun shop has been calling my name for some time. POF makes a better model but the shop owner told me if I order one (POF)please have patience.
Robb Jensen
01-30-08, 06:05
Hello, I'm looking to buy a Gas Piston complete upper. I have my lower ready to go and a tax refund on the way. My local dealer can get the Bushmaster in a couple of days from a distributor that has them in stock. The price is $1,019.00. I hate to wait, so I'm leaning towards getting the Bushy since the POF and LWRC are on a 14 week backorder. This rifle will be used for casual shooting of Beer Cans and Paper Targets mostly and the killing of Coyotes here and there. I like the Flattop uppers and standard M4 handguards, I dont care much for the tactical rails and and accessory stuff. I just want a Stock looking M4 with 16" barrel and a EOtech sitting on top. I hear the Bushy is the POF without the Chromed BCG and fluted barrel. I'm not interested in the add on units like the Ares or PWS since I don't own a DI AR-15 currently.
So, my question is Should I go for the Bushmaster or should I wait and get the POF or the LWRC?
If any of you guys have one of these Systems and can share your experiences that would be great.
You aren't 'thinking outside of the box', if you wanted a PWS and don't currently have DI AR15 and you like M4 handguards you could simply send them any CAR length barrel, a set of M4 handguards and a DI bolt carrier for assembly with a PWS piston kit. Don't be so quick to dismiss it, it's a good system.
At this time I can't recommend an ARES unless it's spigot is held in with a 4-40 screw into the FSB like I've done for a friend of mine.
If you're going to get anything short of an HK upper, I'd say go with the LWRC. My experience with POF's customer service has been less than impressive so far and the LWRC has a few technical advantages over the POF. One that comes to mind off the top of my head is that the LWRC bolt carrier has mods to eliminate carrier tilt while POF's does not. Also, LWRC's gas system is self regulating, POF's is not. Last, you will get a lifetime warranty with the LWRC. There are other advantages, but the ones I listed are IMO the ones worth mentioning.
If you don't want to wait, try to score an upper from one of LWRC's dealers. Just my two cents.
Tspeis
The POF gas cylinder is self regulating too. Same as LWRC's it uses the gas it needs to push the op rod and disperses the rest after the task is done.
On the POF gas cylinder you'll see the two vent holes on the bottom of the cylinder similar to an M14's gas cylinder with it's vent hole at the bottom of it's cylinder.
POF just doesn't use it like as a selling point like LWRC does so people seemingly have taken it that it isn't but it basically does the same thing through a different design.
http://www.pof-usa.com/images/p9xev.jpg
How the BCG is balanced in weight dictates whether it will tilt too (the op rod has a very straight push also) and any cases of tilt with POF have been only a few that I've seen come up with many rifles out there. That doesn't make it a real issue when so many other owners have reported no tilt problem (myself included) and the reason those few had one has never really been found out. It could have been something else too, but people on the net make up what they want regardless.
That LWRC has a lifetime warranty is nice, but hopefully you won't need it though. They do make a nice rifle from what I've seen, but in my case I find POF's just nicer and a blend of a more traditional gas cylinder/piston/op rod design refined to work in the AR platform. Frank was telling me they've had a gun shop/rental range run one to a 100,000 rounds already through customer rental use.
PWS's is very similar in the case which I like also and seems like a great choice for anyone looking to do a conversion.
TUNNEL RAT 33
01-30-08, 10:36
if i were you i would wait untill the LMT piston comes out . from what i understand its a mrp upper and you can switch from di to piston by swapping out barrels and bolt carriers. rumor is its coming out after shot show .
I should have been a little more clear with my post. I understand that POF's system is self regulating as far as using the amount of gas it needs to operate, no more or less. However, it doesn't adjust when using a suppressor. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't one need to remove the piston and reinsert it backwards to run a suppressor on the POF?
Frank is good people in my book. My bad experiences in the past were with one of his reps. I'm not partial to either product. I think POF makes decent stuff, but I prefer the LWRC's for a few reasons just as you prefer the POF for certain reasons. If POF made a platform in 6.8mm SPC, I'd probably consider getting one.
Your opinion is more than welcome as well and I'm by no means trying to start a pissing match, I just want to throw that out there. Some people tend to get the wrong idea when their opinion is challenged by another. Personally, I'd take an HK over both the LWRC and POF. I had an HK upper for a little while, but recently sold it to fund another HK project.
Tspeis
I should have been a little more clear with my post. I understand that POF's system is self regulating as far as using the amount of gas it needs to operate, no more or less. However, it doesn't adjust when using a suppressor. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't one need to remove the piston and reinsert it backwards to run a suppressor on the POF?
Frank is good people in my book. My bad experiences in the past were with one of his reps. I'm not partial to either product. I think POF makes decent stuff, but I prefer the LWRC's for a few reasons just as you prefer the POF for certain reasons. If POF made a platform in 6.8mm SPC, I'd probably consider getting one.
Your opinion is more than welcome as well and I'm by no means trying to start a pissing match, I just want to throw that out there. Some people tend to get the wrong idea when their opinion is challenged by another. Personally, I'd take an HK over both the LWRC and POF. I had an HK upper for a little while, but recently sold it to fund another HK project.
Tspeis
I didn't think you were trying to start a pissing match. It's just discussion and friendly at that.:)
The piston reversal is for changing the rpm in fullauto, it doesn't make a difference for semi, supressed or not.
Even for someone wanting to switch it over in a full auto setup, it only takes a few seconds to do it. The plug is a spring lock that you press in the locking button, turn to position in it's release cuts and remove. Than the piston slides out through tilting, you flip it and put it back in and replace the plug. Easy peasy.:D
I'd still take a POF before an HK416 if they were out for civilian sales mainstream. The HK has a spring in the piston action above the barrel same as the LWRC does which I don't prefer, but the HK416 also has even more proprietary parts with a specialized bolt, firing pin and firing pin spring in the mix that I like less.
With how HK has been in dealing with customers it doesn't build alot of confidence in me for weapons replacement parts support and service which are very important to me in weapons choices. I don't worry about that with POF even though Chris can be a little hard to talk to sometimes. I know their support is there if I need it though.
The spring loaded firing pin, firing pin block, firing pin block spring, and pusher rod spring are no cause for concern. The HK416 has seen PLENTY of testing with no problems related to those parts. Just about every modern handgun design out there incorporates a spring loaded firing pin and spring loaded firing pin block into it as well. HK just put it in the AR and personally, I like the design. This might be surprising to some, but I've had nothing but good dealings with HK's customer service.
Back on topic, I'd say go with the design you prefer. Both the POF and LWRC are decent platforms and both have their own pros and cons. Do a little research and if possible, run some rounds through either system and see which one you'd like to buy.
Tspeis
The spring loaded firing pin, firing pin block, firing pin block spring, and pusher rod spring are no cause for concern. The HK416 has seen PLENTY of testing with no problems related to those parts. Just about every modern handgun design out there incorporates a spring loaded firing pin and spring loaded firing pin block into it. HK just put it in the AR and personally, I like the design. This might be surprising to some, but I've had nothing but good dealings with HK's customer service.
Back on topic, I'd say go with whichever design you prefer. Both the POF and LWRC are decent platforms and both have their own pros and cons. Do a little research and if possible, run some rounds through either system and see which one you'd like to buy.
Tspeis
I'm not worried about them being quality myself or that there new to firearms technology. I know there not. My preference is more towards there replacement as they will need replacing at some point whether from breaking or wear and that's where the POF's and LWRC's have the advantage to me as they both use common AR bolts and firing pins where you have lots of choices to go with and places to get them.
My experience with HK has basically just been lack of concern for my questions in support and service with rude treatment. That's limited but was more than enough for me and the others stories I've heard and read even though I take them with a grain of salt have still made me feel their a company I'd prefer not to do further business with.
We all do have to judge for ourselves, but how a company is with dealing in support is a deal breaker for me as I need to be able to count on them completely if and when I need it.
Dr. Pretorius
02-01-08, 19:57
I deposited my Tax refund today and couldn't resist. I called Bob at Plainfield Shooting Supplies here in Indy and had him order the Bushmaster flattop Piston upper. I will probably have it by Wednesday next week. I'll be sure to post some photos.
I spent about a half hour talking to a guy at Bushmaster. He was very nice guy and answered all my questions about the Gas System. He said that they are using a one piece carrier that Bushmaster manufactures and they don't have the same coating on the BCG that POF uses other than that it's the same as the POF.
I emailed POF and LWRC a few days ago and asked them for a list of distributors that might have their product in stock. POF emailed me a few hours later with a list of three distributors to try, but I ultimately decided to support my local gun shop and deal with someone I have been doing business with for a long time.
LWRC never has responded to my email. I also emailed PWS as well about a week ago and asked some questions about their system and they don't seem to answer emails either.
I think all the information you're getting is great but why not get a Gas Piston
platform rather then getting an AR with a Gas Piston upper?
Not to hijack your thread but take a look at an XCR , Best of an AK , FAL and an AR in one Carbine.
SBR is available as well :D
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t124/tzoid08/_MG_8084opt.jpg
Standard 5.56 folder is around 1400 bucks . available in 6.5 6.8 and soon 7x62x39.
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t124/tzoid08/100_1520.jpg
I deposited my Tax refund today and couldn't resist. I called Bob at Plainfield Shooting Supplies here in Indy and had him order the Bushmaster flattop Piston upper. I will probably have it by Wednesday next week. I'll be sure to post some photos.
I spent about a half hour talking to a guy at Bushmaster. He was very nice guy and answered all my questions about the Gas System. He said that they are using a one piece carrier that Bushmaster manufactures and they don't have the same coating on the BCG that POF uses other than that it's the same as the POF.
I emailed POF and LWRC a few days ago and asked them for a list of distributors that might have their product in stock. POF emailed me a few hours later with a list of three distributors to try, but I ultimately decided to support my local gun shop and deal with someone I have been doing business with for a long time.
LWRC never has responded to my email. I also emailed PWS as well about a week ago and asked some questions about their system and they don't seem to answer emails either.
That's good news that Bushmaster is now using a one piece bcg. It's the first I've heard of it and all I've seen have been the two piece so far.
If you can post some photo's of it too it would be appreciated. I'd like to see what they made and how close to the POF it is.
I can't blame you for not wanting to wait. It's hard to sometimes.
I'm sure you'll be very happy with the Bushmaster piston upper and I look forward to the pics. :)
POF needs to jump forward a little and redesign parts so they can get rid of the 1" of extra rail above the standard AR height. That's just annoyingly fugly.
POF needs to jump forward a little and redesign parts so they can get rid of the 1" of extra rail above the standard AR height. That's just annoyingly fugly.
Actually I'd prefer they didn't. It's actually about a half inch too. Lots of POF owners, myself included don't have a problem with the Predator rail look or extra height. Many seem to overlook that the HK416 has a modified receiver bringing it's rail height up matching it's forearm to almost where the Predator rail also, but they don't seem to have a problem with that as it has HK on the side.
If they made the system smaller that means they'd have to shrink down parts thickness overall in piston and op rod and in the thickness of steel walls for the gas cylinder. All that's going to do is make the parts more fragile and less robust.
Function and lasting longer are much more important to me. If they used new materials were strength and wear weren't compromised than maybe, but I honestly don't have a problem with the Predator rail.
That it slides over the receiver rail and has it for additional support of the forearm and custom barrel nut is a nice plus in my book.
Irons are higher but I haven't had any zeroing problem from the height or with my cheekweld even though I am a tall guy with a longer neck than someone shorter.
Yep, I'd say it's fine as is and if anything a person can always buy the M4 handguard version and modify a Troy or Samson railed forearm by milling out the inside to fit the gas cylinder as one owner I know of has already.
Dr. Pretorius, if you do want one, I had noticed a bit ago that Bushmaster is selling them direct in their BMAS section and Midway sells them also. Whether they make it or POF does I don't know.
http://bushmaster.com/catalog_parts_bm_modular_system.asp#P12
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=535842&t=11082005
couch_potato
02-02-08, 03:42
I think all the information you're getting is great but why not get a Gas Piston
platform rather then getting an AR with a Gas Piston upper?
Not to hijack your thread but take a look at an XCR , Best of an AK , FAL and an AR in one Carbine.
SBR is available as well :D
A good reason to not get an XCR is Alex Robinson is backing Mitt Romney. Romney is notoriously anti-gun.
Boycott Robinson Arms.
LWRC never has responded to my email. I also emailed PWS as well about a week ago and asked some questions about their system and they don't seem to answer emails either.
Doc,
Keep in mind these manufacturers are ramping up for SHOT and probably don't have much time to get to a computer. The non-AR piston system I'm waiting on is the FN SCAR. :D
Tspeis
POF needs to jump forward a little and redesign parts so they can get rid of the 1" of extra rail above the standard AR height.
One inch? Lets not get that carried away.
Jay Cunningham
02-02-08, 08:14
One inch? Lets not get that carried away.
Agreed.
It's closer to 0.5" and there is a good argument for a higher rail height to keep the accessory mounts lower.
davemcdonald
02-02-08, 09:05
if i were you i would wait untill the LMT piston comes out . from what i understand its a mrp upper and you can switch from di to piston by swapping out barrels and bolt carriers. rumor is its coming out after shot show .
IIRC from the email that I read orders for the LMT piston system were going to be taken at Shot and then the ordering process would be open to everybody else after SHot. So there is a chance that Grant will come back with some of the LMT systems already on order
After researching the different piston systems, I went with LWRC. I feel that their piston system is superior to the others.
Failure2Stop
02-02-08, 10:26
The non-AR piston system I'm waiting on is the FN SCAR.
Prepare for disappointment.
Decent gun, waaaaay too much hype, none of it FNs fault.
A good reason to not get an XCR is Alex Robinson is backing Mitt Romney. Romney is notoriously anti-gun.
Boycott Robinson Arms.
I buy what I want .. maybe Alex should stay out of Politics and keep who he is backing under the covers.
In America we all have the right to Vote for who we want. Boycott Rob Arms Vote for Obama or Clinton.... McCain whatever.
I'm not trying to derail this thread. so I'll stop here.
variablebinary
02-02-08, 14:44
A good reason to not get an XCR is Alex Robinson is backing Mitt Romney. Romney is notoriously anti-gun.
Boycott Robinson Arms.
Funny how anti-gun Romney has a better grade on gun rights than Mccain.
Ronmey has never proposed any anti gun legislation AFAIK. He did however sign a bill backed by the majority and was the will of the people in MA. This is how federalism works.
Lib states get lib laws.
Prepare for disappointment.
Decent gun, waaaaay too much hype, none of it FNs fault.
I don't follow much of the hype surrounding new weapons these days. I had the opportunity to handle and shoot the SCAR at an FN shoot not too long ago. The gun is dirt simple. While it's not the end all be all of rifles, it's still a decent platform. I might find myself clearing a spot for it in the safe if the price is right.
Tspeis
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