View Full Version : How many of you are still at the top of your
ramairthree
08-23-12, 20:47
game when it comes to your iron sights?
while setting up some new stuff, and changing some old set ups,
it became clear to me I know longer am. Stuff I used to know to ring the most from your A1 or A2/A3 sights is no longer off the top of my head.
And then I realized I never even got that good with my Matech or ARMS sights.
I do some basic math, know where I should be hitting based on my zero and FPS trajectory, and then pretty much don't mess with my irons other than to check zero or blast some relatively close stuff once in a while.
I cannot remember the last time I have know my dope to take me from 300 to 500m, or even to be more accurate than my POA and trajectory.
Unlike some, whether for fun or for work, I have no really had to worry about hitting something all that far away, and 95+ nothing over 200m, and probably 85% under 50m.
With PEQs, RDS/holos, scopes, etc. have irons become like patrolling, jungle skills, etc? Only a minority around that have been well skilled and trained at them ever, and only a small percentage of those still masters of it?
Voodoo_Man
08-23-12, 21:45
At a recent F2S class I had to ditch my optic (H1) and go irons for 100m shots.
While I was not shooting an m4, but a SCAR, I still set them and forgot.
A good set of irons go a long way.
Dos Cylindros
08-23-12, 22:16
At a recent F2S class I had to ditch my optic (H1) and go irons for 100m shots.
While I was not shooting an m4, but a SCAR, I still set them and forgot.
A good set of irons go a long way.
Did your H1 have a failure, or was it part of the training?
Alaskapopo
08-23-12, 22:25
I can still shoot irons fine but I no longer run them any anything. On my patrol rifle (SCAR 17) I run a Nightforce 2.5-10 with a Aimpoint R1 in an off set Larue mount. With reduntant optics I see no reason to have a back up set of irons. I think its good to have a back up plan but it does not have to be irons in this day and age with micro red dots.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/Semi%20Auto%20rifles/SCARwithNightforce.jpg
At 48 years old, I'm starting to have a difficult time seeing the front sight clearly.
To be honest... I don't even practice with irons past 200 anymore... well maybe a few shots at 300 just to see if I hit anything... but any training with irons is few and far between, and limited to 200.
Using mostly the LaRue branded Troy sights.
JBecker 72
08-23-12, 22:55
Yeah, I'm gonna enjoy my better than 20/20 vision while I can. I'm curious how much it will drop off with age, I'm currently 27. I was always able to spot things and read signs at much greater distances than any of my friends were and I haven't noticed any reduction yet.
Curious at what age did some of you guys notice a substantial drop in vision? My father is 57 and only had ok vision his life, and he said 50 is when he noticed his sight was going. I swear sometimes he seems like he is blind.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
Every practice session i like to take my optic off and use my irons just for the hell of it, there is no question that im more efficient with my optics but its fun to go old school.
Yeah, I'm gonna enjoy my better than 20/20 vision while I can. I'm curious how much it will drop off with age, I'm currently 27. I was always able to spot things and read signs at much greater distances than any of my friends were and I haven't noticed any reduction yet.
Curious at what age did some of you guys notice a substantial drop in vision? My father is 57 and only had ok vision his life, and he said 50 is when he noticed his sight was going. I swear sometimes he seems like he is blind.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
My dad had 20/20 vision most of his life but around 45-ish is when he started to struggle with focusing objects up close. What is weird is his vision at distance is actually getting better, it has improved to 20/15 in the last 3 years (he's 50 now)
I can still use my irons as good as I always could.
I've never been able to get good hits at 200 yards though.
I can honestly shoot about a 16" group at 200 yards, prone on the mag with M855. Irons or an Aimpoint, that's about all I can do.
JBecker 72
Simple -look at your parents! What age did they start wearing glasses? If they do. I know mine would start in my 40's and it did I'm just under 20/20 stigmatism so irons passed 100 yard with out glasses not good. :( Inside 100 yards your still toast!:D
I still practice with them, at least with my AR with my Aimpoint, generally to confirm zero, and making sure my shooting didn't go to complete shit a few months back when my Aimpoint got knocked around and was off two feet to the left at 100 meters. On one of my ARs I am likely going to slap a DD A1.5 on it in the next month and toss the flip up in the safe, may even start running it with only irons for a little while but doubt it. I haven't had a chance to go out past 100 meters with them unfortunately, but I do generally get groups better with irons than I can with a red dot optic, hell at 100 meters I can hold groups close to what the ACOG will do, but the shooting at little things the ACOG is easier.
I had qualification for the guard last weekend. Shot an M16 that I would guess saw time in the first Gulf War and in OIF II, not too mention use and abuse and ill-informed cleaning methods.
It took me 6 rounds to zero (my zero is always very close to mechanical zero) no adjustments were required. First 3 shots were dead center of the ring, next 3 to double check made a neat little hole in the same spot.
I shot my practice round @ 32 of 40. I dumped 4 rounds into the first 150m target as it was not going down (range malf I later learned, target was registering hits, just not going down). Missed a 200m target and jerked a 300m, don't remember the other miss.
My record round was 39 of 40. Jerked a shot at 200m target, knew it instantly, I was pissed ruined a perfect run.
Irons aren't hard for me, in fact I normally shoot better with irons than with a cco in an Army qual scenario. I hadn't shot an m16 in 3 years, I've been a SAW gunner and had an m4 overseas. Where the dot wins IMHO is when "close" is good, ie putting multiple rounds into a target in a small amount of time. My followups aren't as fast with irons but I'm more accurate with them.
Voodoo_Man
08-24-12, 06:38
Did your H1 have a failure, or was it part of the training?
My SCAR does not fail ;)
It was part of the class.
ramairthree
08-24-12, 06:38
Yeah, I'm gonna enjoy my better than 20/20 vision while I can. I'm curious how much it will drop off with age, I'm currently 27. I was always able to spot things and read signs at much greater distances than any of my friends were and I haven't noticed any reduction yet.
Curious at what age did some of you guys notice a substantial drop in vision? My father is 57 and only had ok vision his life, and he said 50 is when he noticed his sight was going. I swear sometimes he seems like he is blind.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
On vision test when ever they said read the last line you can read, I would come out 20/10, 20/15.
Around 42 I noticed stuff like a faint size on a drill bit in a dim garage was no longer an easy read. Close vision still came out at 20/20 a couple more years on exam, but a struggle.
I did not think it would be so quick or bad for me.
But, your eye muscles don't care how good your vision was,
focusing an old stiff lense is the same.
Front sight still no issue. I can struggle and make 20/20 near vision on an exam, but is way different to me. I may not make that this year.
I was getting more at are you still at the top of your expertise game, your range dope, adjustments. Basically all the skill and knowledge beyond zeroing the sights and qualifying expert to 300m. IMHO that is basic knowledge.
Getting OFF of my irons is the exception for me. I have one gun with an Aimpoint.
Now hitting at 500 yards is not as easy these days with irons. 0-300 is no problem at all. I'm a little near sighted.. so seeing that 500 yard target is a challenge.
At 48 years old, I'm starting to have a difficult time seeing the front sight clearly.
To be honest... I don't even practice with irons past 200 anymore... well maybe a few shots at 300 just to see if I hit anything... but any training with irons is few and far between, and limited to 200.
Using mostly the LaRue branded Troy sights.
Same here! Age, ranges, Troy BUIS's. I can still hit fairly well at 300 but anything past that is somewhat luck of the draw. I only do this one or two times a year.
My problem is that when Pappabear and I shoot... there's times when our closest target is 500 yards.
I might as well leave my ARs at home. :(
I set aside range days that are exclusively irons. While RDS optics have never been better or more reliable, there is still something to be said for maintaining the IS capability. Further, despite the popularity and affinity for RDSs, the overwhelming majority of folks out in the world have either irons, or a traditional magnified scope.
There's no meaningful difference in dope 0-300 between my irons and RDS, so I don't even think about that. Stretching out, the difference may be there but doesn't require a lot of head work.
sierra 223
08-24-12, 11:08
I am 45, close vision has been going blury for the last 4-5 years.
Started with pistol, the front sight became blury, at about 44 yrs my rifle sight became blury.
Going to get an Aimpoint PRO for patrol rifle, won a Larue LT129 mount to put it in the other day.
As far as pistol, I dont know what to do, I guess it just has to be a fuzzy front sight, might wear reading glasses to Q in.
My long range vision is almost as good as ever, 20/20 now, used to be 20/10.
BangBang77
08-24-12, 11:50
Irons are all I use, and the only thing I've used since I ETS'd in 1998. I think the Aimpoints and Eotechs are nice, but I get the job done with my irons so I see no need to add unecessary weight to my rifle at this point.
I'm a deputy and most of the guys in my department use some sort of RDS, but I stick with my steel. To date, I haven't run into a situation where I felt I NEEDED a RDS.
So yeah, I'm still up to par with the irons.
I'm 43 and I have been wearing glasses since the age of six. The only time I have ever had a problem is using rds. Irons are still good for me, although 200 is becoming shaky more and more...
Irons are all I use, and the only thing I've used since I ETS'd in 1998. I think the Aimpoints and Eotechs are nice, but I get the job done with my irons so I see no need to add unecessary weight to my rifle at this point.
I'm a deputy and most of the guys in my department use some sort of RDS, but I stick with my steel. To date, I haven't run into a situation where I felt I NEEDED a RDS.
So yeah, I'm still up to par with the irons.
A man after my own heart. :)
fallenromeo
08-24-12, 15:10
I actually use my irons more than my Aimpoint.
IYAAYASwarrior
08-24-12, 16:16
I have no other choice than my irons. In the time it will take to save for a good RDS I have worked with irons only and I feel like I am at a comfortable level and can do almost anything I need to do out to about 100 yds...past that I fall off hard...
Czarny_Orzel
08-24-12, 17:59
Now I really feel old...63 here and with glasses, I can do fairly well at 100, and hit out to about 200, anything beyond that requires magnifcation - sigh. I can still run a 6 inch group with .45 at 25 yards, but have to admit, it's getting harder and harder. And yes, I still practise with iron sites, but do ahve a Nikon 3-9X40 just in case! :p
Irons guy here too, however I have only been able to shoot 200 yards three or four times in my life. I use a T-1 in conjunction with fixed irons as I have to sometimes wear an APR as part of my duties.
The toughest shot for me and the one I practice the most is the 75 yard kneeling CSAT standard. With irons or irons and dot its not problem, but when I try and shoot just dot I start doing the El Snatcho.
I also shoot carbine length radius better than mid length. Still haven't figured that one out.
ffhounddog
08-24-12, 20:11
I have a midlength A1 that I had assembled here at VA Arms and I use it every training session. I leave that rifle in my truck most of the time.
I love rocking the A2 and getting out to 400 yards but it is harder to find places farther than that here.
Failure2Stop
08-24-12, 21:20
Lots of people seem to believe that that I have something against iron sights since I say that it is not necessary to "master" them before moving to a good optic. These people have not taken a class from me.
I believe that a shooter needs to be effective out to 300 meters with iron sights, and know what shift in point of impact effects are made by shooting through the RDS with co-witnessed irons and with the RDS removed. There are occasions that arise that will require complete removal of the RDS to be able to use irons, and the shooter should be prepared and able to employ the weapon in all three instances (RDS/Optic, irons through dead optic, irons alone).
The last time that I would say that I was "on top" of my irons game was when shooting fundamental rifle competition. It served its purpose, but the real skill is not in achieving sight alignment/sight picture, but rather the dozen or so other minute aspects that make the difference between mediocrity and excellence in fundamental rifle marksmanship at long-ish range (600 yards).
My near vision really started going down hill mid 40's but I had to try irons at 400 yards at a recent Appleseed. I surprised myself how well I did at that distance with an old Colt Sporter 20" with A2 sights.
I was able to dial the rear sight to the desired range and make solid hits using M855.
Late into the second day I started to loose focus on the front sight then wiped my eyes and got sunscreen in them. I was pretty much done after that and couldn't even drive home.
sinlessorrow
08-24-12, 22:00
I am not, I went to zero my irons today and realized, that little 25M zero target sucks ass for zeroing irons. at 25M I could barely make out the target when it was blurred from focusing on the front post. With a nice sized bright target I am 3MOA with irons at 100Yrds.
When I hit 50, that's when I started to notice a degradation of the clarity of the handgun sights. The long gun was not as noteable, I chalked it up to the longer distance between the irons. At 55 the rear sight of the long gun was so blurry that it became almost unusable. The only thing that kept me up with younger friends was a lot of experience. When I hit 59 I got a Aimpoint H-1 which is all I use now. For all purposes the Magpul rear sight is more for fending off the inevitable "how come you don't have a rear sight" question rather than thinking I could use it. If the Aimpoint goes down, I'll just use it a as a big ghost ring. I've tried glasses and got nowhere. My distance vision is still OK, it's the precision close up stuff that's gone out to arms length which is where the handgun focal plane is. The RDS has enabled me to continue to enjoy shooting and at least feel I've got a fighting chance.
...Curious at what age did some of you guys notice a substantial drop in vision? ...
For me it was 45 years old. That was over a decade ago and it has only gotten worse over the years. I seldom practice with my irons and only to 100 yards.
Depending on the gun and its intended purpose I use an aimpoint rds, a 1-4 or a 4-16 power scope. I have had three aimpoints fail on me during practice, an ML2, M3 and C3. Two had to be sent back to aimpoint. I believe the malfunction with the M3 was merely the cap for the battery compartment. It only malfunctioned on full auto and stopped when we removed and replaced the battery cap. I still believe rds are the way to go and believe in aimpoints, but always have bus.
ramairthree
10-17-12, 13:12
I got the full optometry screen on this years physical by request instead of just the basic screen.
Still scored 20/20 on near vision but it was a challenge, and still ended up being prescribed a set of reading glasses.
I also have developed a small astigmatism that was not there before but needs not rx.
She also wrote me for some night driving glasses.
I thought that was strange as had noted no issues.
(except the T1 headlights on a 69 GTO, which I had put in relays and got them a touch brighter- it was more of upgrading old standard type stuff- headlights, drum brakes, etc. because you are accustomed to new, better standards- although new stereos be damned, I am still rocking an 8 track in there)
She seemed a little surprised that I had never had seen an opthalmologist or optometrist except for once in 98 by a course requirement. I had only been doing the annual basic screens from 85 till now.
all the older guys at work and expecially the younger guys I used to bust on about glasses are THRILLED at the chance to give me crap when they see me bust out the glasses for fine print.
Littlelebowski
10-17-12, 13:27
Lots of people seem to believe that that I have something against iron sights since I say that it is not necessary to "master" them before moving to a good optic. These people have not taken a class from me.
It's my feeling many of the RDS decriers won't take a carbine class ever.
Patrolling is not a lost art, far from it.
My right eye shit the bed a while back, with an astigmatism I can’t use iron sights anymore, I’m glad my irons are my 2nd backups.
Doc Safari
10-17-12, 13:37
When I hit 50, that's when I started to notice a degradation of the clarity of the handgun sights. The long gun was not as noteable, I chalked it up to the longer distance between the irons. At 55 the rear sight of the long gun was so blurry that it became almost unusable. The only thing that kept me up with younger friends was a lot of experience. When I hit 59 I got a Aimpoint H-1 which is all I use now.
Truth be told, I went "old school" for the time being and removed all my Aimpoints and went back to irons for just this reason.
I'm 48 years old, and not being made of money I decided to salt away my optics for a rainy day and aging eyes. I zeroed each Aimpoint T1 to a different rifle, logged which was which, and sealed them in an ammo can with desiccant.
With the economy the way it is and the fact that I'm not that far from your magic 50-59 age group, I decided not to take a chance on damaging one of the Aimpoints until I really need it.
Meanwhile, I plan to get as much range time with the irons as my budget will allow just to keep my eye-focus muscles tuned. I hope that helps me compensate for age.
Your post sure makes me wish I'd bought a magnified optic, though.
I've been playin with an Aimpoint on one of my recreational guns. I'm not at a point where I'd trust that kind of system for serious use yet.
The dialing up and down for inside/outside drives me nuts... being a little OCD. Then when you get it just right for inside and you hit your weapon light... the dot is dim enough where you have to pause to find it.
Doc Safari
10-17-12, 13:54
The dialing up and down for inside/outside drives me nuts... being a little OCD. Then when you get it just right for inside and you hit your weapon light... the dot is dim enough where you have to pause to find it.
You get to where you memorize your "number". I dial my T1 up to 10 for bright sunlight. Usually indoors I can get away with about 6 or 7 depending on the brightness of indoor lights. Oh, and you want to count clicks, not look at the dial, just in case you are in total darkness.
I see what you're sayin... but I'm picturing the thing in a patrol scenario... be it Urban L.E. or even Afghanistan...
Going from bright into a dark structure... Having to tune your sight system is unacceptable.
Every practice session i like to take my optic off and use my irons just for the hell of it, there is no question that im more efficient with my optics but its fun to go old school.
My dad had 20/20 vision most of his life but around 45-ish is when he started to struggle with focusing objects up close. What is weird is his vision at distance is actually getting better, it has improved to 20/15 in the last 3 years (he's 50 now)
This is normal..I am 48 now..I am slightly myopic (near sighted). As I am aging I noticed my near-sightedness is decreasing, but I am having a deterioration of my close in sight. I can still sight with iron sights but in low light it can be more difficult.
My twin brother who was 20/15 all his life cant even read the watch on his wrist now, but he can still see better than normal at far ranges.
Dave
I had qualification for the guard last weekend. Shot an M16 that I would guess saw time in the first Gulf War and in OIF II, not too mention use and abuse and ill-informed cleaning methods.
When you say M16, do you actually mean M16, or are you just using that term as slang? I would have figured you would be shooting the M16A2, or possibly M16A1, but not the M16.
Just curious.
I see what you're sayin... but I'm picturing the thing in a patrol scenario... be it Urban L.E. or even Afghanistan...
Going from bright into a dark structure... Having to tune your sight system is unacceptable.
inside of structures you could probably just leave it on the brighter setting. You'd be unlikely to be taking a shot over ~30 feet or so, so the more precise small dot wouldn't be as big an issue.
I've just recently put an aimpoint on my rifle. I'm liking it, but still getting used to it.
I just recently got into ARs, less the a year. Although I want a red dot I refuse to buy one untill i can get proficient with the irons.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
Up until the last year or so, I hadn't used anything but iron sights. (Bought an EOTech for one carbine and an SWFA 1-4X for the other.) After zeroing my BUIS, I wasn't using anything but optics for close to a year. I was pleasantly surprised recently to find that I could still shoot with the irons just as well as the HWS at 100 and 200 yds.
ramairthree
10-17-12, 17:30
I partially getting at how well you can see as your eyes age,
but mainly trying to get across that for me,
beyond basic zero at 25/300 ish or 50/200 ish and hitting 300 E types out to 300m and knowing my offset in between-
I am not at the top of my game.
sight adjustments for different ranges, targets past 300m, etc. is not off the top of my head anymore.
I am in eye-friggin-purgatory..... that is me being positive and not saying HELL. Astigmatism so bad I can use my beloved Aimpoints by day OK, but they go supernova by night and when I use irons other than the large apertures I get the "hairy eye" which is also very light dependent. Really bright days I can get away with the irons on the FAL and small ap on the Noveskes, but in lowlight I am screwed. Shooting with irons is my preference and I used irons on most of my rifles when others were using scopes, but now I am in the market for a miracle or Aimpoint that is astigmatism friendly. I won't even talk about how Far Sighted I am:(
I was able to shoot MOA with irons on a bright day recently with the FAL and make hits at 700 with competition irons on an OBR, but its not my go-to choice these days.
I keep irons on my 15-22 and practice with it quite a bit. I shot an iron sighted AR in three gun for years and bust it out once a year or so to maintain my proficiency. I am as fast up close with irons as many are with an RDS. I keep a wider red sight on my FSP so I'm useless past 200, I never shoot past 300 anyway.
I keep irons on my 15-22 and practice with it quite a bit. I shot an iron sighted AR in three gun for years and bust it out once a year or so to maintain my proficiency. I am as fast up close with irons as many are with an RDS. I keep a wider red sight on my FSP so I'm useless past 200, I never shoot past 300 anyway.
I do the same with my 15-22. Mostly because I have other stuff on the list to buy first, but it is good practice so I"ll probably keep it that way.
When you say M16, do you actually mean M16, or are you just using that term as slang? I would have figured you would be shooting the M16A2, or possibly M16A1, but not the M16.
Just curious.
Yea Stick, m16a2. Sorry I didn't specify. The IANG might be behind the times a bit, but not quite that far.
I was issued an m4 with m68 overseas with a matech folding rear. I still shot better with irons than with the dot. I think that was a matter of familiarity with the dot, just didn't have faith in it. Shot 38/40 irons and 35/40 with the dot.
Recently re-qualed with the m16a2 at 37/40. Had a double feed that I attribute to bad mags, and was also shorted one round. Needed 4 mags of 10 and 2 of 20. got four of 10, one 9 rounder and one 20 rounder! It must be rocket surgery stuffing two stipper clips into a mag!
Scotter260
10-18-12, 00:35
I am in eye-friggin-purgatory..... that is me being positive and not saying HELL. Astigmatism so bad I can use my beloved Aimpoints by day OK, but they go supernova by night and when I use irons other than the large apertures I get the "hairy eye" which is also very light dependent.
I've known my astigmatism was becoming a problem - 4MOA Aimpoint dot looks like a small dot with a haze around it that's at least twice as large above and below the dot. That's during the day on setting 5. This aging thing is for the birds.
I prefer irons because of this and also because of the slight jump and shimmy of the dot from recoil - it's distracting.
I can do fairly well with irons but I prefer a very large target backer board so I can get adequate real-estate on all sides of the post - for some reason I need that symmetry.
inside of structures you could probably just leave it on the brighter setting. You'd be unlikely to be taking a shot over ~30 feet or so, so the more precise small dot wouldn't be as big an issue.
You about half to... and then rely more heavily on your weapon light.
I've just recently put an aimpoint on my rifle. I'm liking it, but still getting used to it.
Same here. I just hope I'm not messing up my snap iron sight cheek weld by getting lazy on the Aimpoint.
RogerinTPA
10-18-12, 10:24
You about half to... and then rely more heavily on your weapon light.
Same here. I just hope I'm not messing up my snap iron sight cheek weld by getting lazy on the Aimpoint.
I may not shoot with irons a lot, but when I do shoot, it's with an Aimpoint. Getting lazy with an Aimpoint, allows you to boringly and accurately engage targets. Shooting Efficiency...It is a good thing...:cool:
I may not shoot with irons a lot, but when I do shoot, it's with an Aimpoint. Getting lazy with an Aimpoint, allows you to boringly and accurately engage targets. Shooting Efficiency...It is a good thing...:cool:
What I mean is getting lazy about snapping the gun into cheek weld. You have these clowns like Pat Rogers who babble about aligning iron sights, etc....
Well you don't do that... you snap the gun up to your jaw and you're already there. I'm running a lower 1/3 mount so I don't snap the same with the Aimpoint... I just don't want that habit to get me on my fighting guns.
vicious_cb
10-18-12, 13:04
Irons are all I use, and the only thing I've used since I ETS'd in 1998. I think the Aimpoints and Eotechs are nice, but I get the job done with my irons so I see no need to add unecessary weight to my rifle at this point.
I'm a deputy and most of the guys in my department use some sort of RDS, but I stick with my steel. To date, I haven't run into a situation where I felt I NEEDED a RDS.
So yeah, I'm still up to par with the irons.
The weight of an RDS and its position on the gun make the difference negligible. I would not shy away from an RDS because of weight.
I understand how nice it is to shoot further out with irons. It means you put effort into aligning the sights and you could focus really well. It's a good skill and I am not bashing the point of the thread.
Focusing really well is done even better with an optic, right? -I'm talking about focusing physically- of course. So we realize eyes need some help, and that's okay. That's part of why optics are great and we know this.
I think the main thing with irons is that they certainly are important to hone a lot of the raw aspects of marksmanship. However, does anyone think about running irons at closer distances quickly and accurately? (click here for video by ssdsurf) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPcGYCZZ51I&feature=plcp)
My point being that the way we run irons with the ideal of follow-up shots and target acquisition efficiently is different than the longer ranged shooting aspect of irons. I certainly can shoot with my irons at range and all, but I honestly am not well practiced in other aspects that I've mentioned.
I'm better than ever with my irons.
Which is still terrible.
However, does anyone think about running irons at closer distances quickly and accurately?
Irons are faster for me up close... the CLOSER the target, the faster irons become. I can see the Front sight coming up peripherally and time my break so that it goes bang the instant I'm on target.
With an RDS I have to wait for the tube to reach eye level and pick out the dot.
As distance increases, they equalize for me.
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