View Full Version : Several people shot at Empire State Building
polymorpheous
08-24-12, 08:53
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57499740-504083/multiple-people-shot-at-empire-state-building-at-least-one-dead/
4 Shot
Suspect dead
8 being evaluated
that the latest I heard
Condolenses to the innocents that died and hurt.
How could this happen? I thought guns are illegal in NYC?
How could this happen? I thought guns are illegal in NYC?
Not for criminals... only for the law abiding people. :D
polymorpheous
08-24-12, 09:53
Bloomberg will go full retard over this.
Meanwhile, in other news...
The whack-a-doo in Norway got 21 years in prison for killing 77 people.
What are Norway's gun laws like again?
Google "Norwegian prison cell" to get a glimpse of his 21 years of punishment.
Why do the left want to emulate these countries?
Bloomberg will go full retard over this.
Meanwhile, in other news...
The whack-a-doo in Norway got 21 years in prison for killing 77 people.
What are Norway's gun laws like again?
Google "Norwegian prison cell" to get a glimpse of his 21 years of punishment.
Why do the left want to emulate these countries?
Bloomberg went full retard a LONG time ago. :(
Condolenses to the innocents that died and hurt.
How could this happen? I thought guns are illegal in NYC?
The individual must have been hyped-up on sugar from a banned oversized soft drink.
Pat Rogers posted on another forum that the shooter was a handbag designer who got fired from his job. I didn't know that handbag designing is a stressful job.
What will Hussein do to stop this kind of thing?:fie:
Bloomberg will go full retard over this.
As of now it appears only one victim inside the building was shot by the gunman. The rest were innocent bystanders at least some of which were shot by police on the street in their haste to shoot the fleeing gunman.
http://www.inquisitr.com/311349/bloomberg-confirms-one-dead-bystanders-accidentally-shot-by-police-in-workplace-shooting/
Sounds like a complete failure to assess what is near and behind the intended target.
Wonder how this will effect NYPD Training with the number of civilians wounded by the misses? How does that NY trigger help or hinder in situations like this?
Man this is not good. 2 Dead now and it looks like a LEO may have killed one.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/24/shooting-reported-outside-empire-state-building/
Those east coast coppers are a whole different breed.... Not a good thing.
Gun control at work :suicide2:
Last year I read that the NYPD came across one man straddling and assaulting another. They killed both and wounded two officers.
Truly a remarkable agency.
Sounds like the shooter only got one person and NYPD were responsible for all the other injuries.
I can understand that probably every cop has a "no more 9-11s" mentality, but that is still really unfortunate.
For those who have been to NYC, how could an officer fire their weapon and not risk hitting a bystander?
For those who have been to NYC, how could an officer fire their weapon and not risk hitting a bystander?
By hitting the target.
Something NYPD does one time in ten.
By hitting the target.
Something NYPD does one time in ten.
That's the East Coast LE Qual. 1/10 or best offer!
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-24-12, 11:53
Bloomturd will turn this around- If the police can't engage a suspect with out hitting bystanders, what chance does a civilian have using their CCW with out causing more death and damage.
Or something like that.
The two officers fired a total of 14 rounds, he said. Mayor Michael Bloomberg said some of the nine wounded may have been shot by police in the mayhem. Johnson's semi-automatic weapon was equipped to fire at least eight rounds; at least one round was left in the clip, police said.
I would get better confirmation on the bystanders before I start talking about it as mayor
"New York City is the safest big city in this country but we are not immune to the national problem of gun violence". Once again, King Bloomberg lives up to his status as the consummate political opportunist.
"New York City is the safest big city in this country but we are not immune to the national problem of gun violence". Once again, King Bloomberg lives up to his status as the consummate political opportunist.
Yep. What a roach.
polymorpheous
08-24-12, 11:57
"New York City is the safest big city in this country but we are not immune to the national problem of gun violence". Once again, King Bloomberg lives up to his status as the consummate political opportunist.
To hell with this guy!
What a weasel!
That's the East Coast LE Qual. 1/10 or best offer!
Baltimore does half on average and above sixty percent in daylight.
Baltimore does half on average and above sixty percent in daylight.
Crack consumption? Or are you still on about police hit:miss ratio?
Yep there are still conflicting reports.
Looks like the only two dead are the gunman and the guy he shot.
"We have on tape - the perpetrator pulled his gun out and tried to shoot at the cops. Whether he got off any bullets or not, to be determined. How many he shot earlier, to be determined. We do know the cops fired back, the tape clearly shows the guy holding a gun out and trying to kill the police officers," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said.
The_War_Wagon
08-24-12, 12:40
CLEARLY... we need to ban old skyscrapers! :rolleyes:
Then again, maybe we should ban unemployment...
Bloomberg said Johnson was laid off about a year ago from Hazan Imports, a women's accessories store located near the Empire State Building.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/24/multiple-people-shot-near-empire-state-building-in-manhattan-police-say/#ixzz24U869IEq
CLEARLY... we need to ban old skyscrapers! :rolleyes:
Then again, maybe we should ban unemployment...
No, we should ban Handbag manufacturing/design
ChicagoTex
08-24-12, 13:48
It strikes me as more than a little odd that this fellow waited around a year to go postal on his former employer.
Mental illness, anyone?
Nope! Not mental illness....
Diet.... It's the foods fault. ... well and the gun... the food and the gun.
"Every morning he had the same routine. He would leave the apartment between 7:30 and 8 a.m., say good morning and head to the McDonald’s on Third Avenue and 84th Street. After about 20 minutes, he would come back carrying a McDonald’s bag. He would nearly always wear the same thing — a tannish brown suit, sometimes with a tie. Then he would generally stay in the apartment the rest of the day."
Derrrrrr (Bloomburg):
"New York City, as you know, is the safest big city in the country, and we are on pace to have a record low number of murders this year," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said. "But we are not immune to the national problem of gun violence," he said about the shooting, which comes in the wake of mass shootings inside a Colorado movie theater and a Sikh temple in Wisconsin."
Moose-Knuckle
08-24-12, 16:27
So if I visit NYC I can't drink a big soda, smoke my pipe or a cigar, I cannot CCW, and if I was a bystander to a crime I have a good chance that their PD will shoot me.
Why do people go there again . . . http://websmileys.com/sm/sad/533.gif
So if I visit NYC I can't drink a big soda, smoke my pipe or a cigar, I cannot CCW, and if I was a bystander to a crime I have a good chance that their PD will shoot me
AND it smells like urine.
Derrrrrr (Bloomburg):
"New York City, as you know, is the safest big city in the country, and we are on pace to have a record low number of murders this year," Mayor Michael Bloomberg said. "But we are not immune to the national problem of gun violence," he said about the shooting, which comes in the wake of mass shootings inside a Colorado movie theater and a Sikh temple in Wisconsin."
Tacit admission that his silly gun restrictions don't actually protect anyone? :)
For those who have been to NYC, how could an officer fire their weapon and not risk hitting a bystander?
By hitting the target.
Something NYPD does one time in ten.
LE Training at it's best!!!! :rolleyes: I can't wait to hear how the LE community and the media will spin this embarrassment. What will they blame for the blatant ineptitude?
In part I feel for those LE guys involved, they really are at the shit end of the stick, they don't get the training that they should to properly protect the innocent in these situations but will probably be held accountable for the injuries they caused.
The sad thing about all this is that attitudes about training will not change by either the policy makers or the individual officers.
ChicagoTex
08-24-12, 18:04
The sad thing about all this is that attitudes about training will not change by either the policy makers or the individual officers.
Policy makers almost certainly not, but I'd like to think that most individual officers would recognize the implications of the fact that they just put a bullet in an innocent and make appropriate adjustments.
Of course, knowing the NYPD Administrator's rich history of hanging their own out to dry for doing their jobs, the officers who do learn a valuable firsthand lesson from this are unlikely to be able to apply it in their futures.
I was out for a run, coming down 6th Ave a few blocks above the incident. Heard the shots, but didn't have eyes on anything. As soon as I finish studying Arabic I'm going to GTFO of this city, because being constantly unarmed is some bullshit. Unfortunately, there's no better place in the US to study in my field.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-24-12, 21:25
I was out for a run, coming down 6th Ave a few blocks above the incident. Heard the shots, but didn't have eyes on anything. As soon as I finish studying Arabic I'm going to GTFO of this city, because being constantly unarmed is some bullshit. Unfortunately, there's no better place in the US to study in my field.
Detroit?
montanadave
08-24-12, 21:37
So if I visit NYC I can't drink a big soda, smoke my pipe or a cigar, I cannot CCW, and if I was a bystander to a crime I have a good chance that their PD will shoot me.
Why do people go there again . . . http://websmileys.com/sm/sad/533.gif
For the theatre, dahling.
As for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbk81X6WHA4&feature=related
Moose-Knuckle
08-24-12, 21:47
For the theatre, dahling.
As for me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbk81X6WHA4&feature=related
LMAO . . . :lol:
I'm with ya on the rural living.
My understanding is that all of the "injuries" were minor scrapes from bullet fragments, ricochet, or abrasions from crawling on the ground. No citizens were struck by intact projectiles. All of those injuries were treated and released within minutes. 2 people were hospitalized for medical complaints related to the incident such as high blood pressure.
Thus, nobody was actually shot by the police except the gunman. Perhaps we could do a better job of not jumping to conclusions or swallowing preliminary media reports hook, line, and sinker.
polymorpheous
08-24-12, 23:00
Perhaps we could do a better job of not jumping to conclusions or swallowing preliminary media reports hook, line, and sinker.
Tell this to Bloomberg!
Detroit?
Good for immersion due to the demographics, and I did almost go to UM - Ann Arbor, but I'm going to do my Ph.D. at Columbia, so NY was really the best choice. Plus, the program is better here and the BAH that I get from the VA for studying in this zip code is insane. I make almost as much as I did on Active Duty. I can suck up the negative aspects of living here temporarily, as the future advantages are well worth it.
Tell this to Bloomberg!
I doubt the Bloomberg is reading this forum. However, I'll settle for telling those who were so anxious to label the officers' actions as inept.
ICANHITHIMMAN
08-25-12, 06:43
I was out for a run, coming down 6th Ave a few blocks above the incident. Heard the shots, but didn't have eyes on anything. As soon as I finish studying Arabic I'm going to GTFO of this city, because being constantly unarmed is some bullshit. Unfortunately, there's no better place in the US to study in my field.
You got a pm
read this
http://writingshares.com/cnn-crimenews-video-did-nypd-shoot-bystanders-when-killing-jeffrey-johnson-suspect-in-empire-state-building-shooting/
And I quote "The NYPD is saying it is possible that the officers involved in the shootout may have accidentally shot some of the injured bystanders. "
http://times247.com/articles/bloomberg-police-may-have-shot-bystanders
Read Update 4
http://gregmitchellwriter.blogspot.com/2012/08/cops-shoot-bystanders-in-midtown-new.html
I quote "NYT update now includes police claim that suspect "may" have fired one shot at cops but admit bystanders all shot by police. NY Daily News, which had earlier promoted the "gun battle" meme, now reports, "It appears Johnson never squeezed off a shot at the cops."
If this wasn't the case i doubt NYPD and Bloomberg would be reporting it as such.
Also, impacts to the body don't create shrapnel that victims can be hit with only misses that hit walls and other cover do that.
It's also my understanding that these officers were part of an anti terrorist unit, so I would assume their training is supposed to be even higher than the regular beat cop. We all know what happens when we assume!!!?!?!? We're left with 9, yes NINE police victims to one shooter that may have fired one to no rounds at police, that's just sad!!
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/08/24/multiple-people-reported-shot-near-empire-state-building/
With Video, The police fired 16 rounds. The suspect had a Star .45 auto with one round remaining in the magazine and fired 5 killing his former employer.
He got into a dispute with his former co-worker before shooting him five times, the NYPD said.
High Tower
08-25-12, 09:12
Scroll down for a video. Pretty close range shooting. I have yet to see the media gather any facts for at least a day after the incident what with their hurry to lie about everything to further their anti-gun agenda.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2193065/Empire-State-shooting-First-picture-shooter-video-shows-moment-police-gunned-Jeffrey-Johnson.html
SPARTAN HOPLITE ARMS
08-25-12, 09:55
read this
It's also my understanding that these officers were part of an anti terrorist unit, so I would assume their training is supposed to be even higher than the regular beat cop. We all know what happens when we assume!!!?!?!? We're left with 9, yes NINE police victims to one shooter that may have fired one to no rounds at police, that's just sad!!
They were officers assigned to the 42 in the South Bronx. They typically send junior officers to the CRV assignments I.e. Counter-terrorism Response Vehicle.. In other words they're assigned to a patrol precinct and sent to midtown, lower manhattan and Metrotech in Brooklyn as part of the smoke and mirrors campaign to give the illusion that the city is secure. They have no special training in counter terror than any other officer. Usually ESU, OCCB and JTTF officers receive extra specialized training and better weapons such as MP5s, Colt M4A1s and occasionally some cheesy Mini 14s. Otherwise, the normal precinct officer is qualified once a year (may be back to twice a year since I transferred) with his chosen duty and possible off duty if he/she uses one. And all those stories about academy recruits being trained on Colts or Rugers were just that. Stories. They may have been trained but good luck finding any non specialized unit cops with long arms. And I can't even recall an old timer who's ever actually seen a "precinct armory" let alone the heavy weapons it's supposed to house. Anyhow, I hope for the sake of the officers that they didn't hit any bystanders but the city will likely get sued either way. They might not be modified because the shooting appears justified but they'll carry a burden forever if they did accidentally hit bystanders.
As for NYC, no surprise that bloomdouche attacked the 2nd amendment. Get out if you can. The place is a mess.
It's also my understanding that these officers were part of an anti terrorist unit, so I would assume their training is supposed to be even higher than the regular beat cop. We all know what happens when we assume!!!?!?!? We're left with 9, yes NINE police victims to one shooter that may have fired one to no rounds at police, that's just sad!!
It would be helpful to know the total number of rounds fired by each officer, number of torso/head hits on the suspect, number of misses, number of bystanders struck by projectiles, and the nature of the bystander wounds. That way we can make our own decisions about the officers actions. Without that info, any AAR of the shooting is worthless.
polymorpheous
08-25-12, 10:26
It would be helpful to know the total number of rounds fired by each officer, number of torso/head hits on the suspect, number of misses, number of bystanders struck by projectiles, and the nature of the bystander wounds. That way we can make our own decisions about the officers actions. Without that info, any AAR of the shooting is worthless.
Damn you and your filthy science!
:p
Empire State Building shooting victim says NYPD fired 'randomly' into street
Officers injured nine bystanders as they pursued gunman Jeffrey Johnson, who appeared to have just one intended target
and
Questions have been raised over the New York police department's handling of a shooting near the Empire State Building after armed officers injured nine passers-by as they pursued a gunman who had just shot dead his former boss.
One of those injured by police told the Guardian that officers appeared to fire "randomly" as they confronted Jeffrey Johnson, 58, minutes after a workplace dispute escalated into a chaotic shootout in one of the busiest parts of Manhattan.
Reports suggest that while Johnson drew his gun when he was confronted by officers, he did not fire; all those injured appear to have been shot by police.
Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/24/empire-state-building-shooting-nypd-response?CMP=twt_gu
If this accounting is accurate, the person that shot this man would not be allowed on the range I go to.
Our nearest handgun distance is 7 yards and we have about a 3'x3' backer. When you going you are told that if can't hit the backer every time, you are not wanted on the range because the feeling is that you could stand there with rocks and throw them and never miss.
This guy claims he was shot in the elbow from half that distance. Is it accurate? I don't know. He roughly describes things as follows.
Shooting at distance of 8 feet.
Distance from him to bad guy 6 feet. ( described direction as "other direction" ) So we are talking 20' max and possibly half that.
I will admit the police -had- to shoot. Even if the gun was empty he indicated he was going to shoot. They had no choice. But that's really close range as described.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/24/empire-state-building-shooting-nypd-response
ETA: I don't see anyone within 6' of anybody. NSFW http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mypYl_NoYnM
BTW,,, don;t those guys wear cameras on their shoulders?
Maybe those get "lost" like radiation badges at Fukushima. :D
polymorpheous
08-25-12, 11:14
They were officers assigned to the 42 in the South Bronx. They typically send junior officers to the CRV assignments I.e. Counter-terrorism Response Vehicle.. In other words they're assigned to a patrol precinct and sent to midtown, lower manhattan and Metrotech in Brooklyn as part of the smoke and mirrors campaign to give the illusion that the city is secure. They have no special training in counter terror than any other officer. Usually ESU, OCCB and JTTF officers receive extra specialized training and better weapons such as MP5s, Colt M4A1s and occasionally some cheesy Mini 14s. Otherwise, the normal precinct officer is qualified once a year (may be back to twice a year since I transferred) with his chosen duty and possible off duty if he/she uses one. And all those stories about academy recruits being trained on Colts or Rugers were just that. Stories. They may have been trained but good luck finding any non specialized unit cops with long arms. And I can't even recall an old timer who's ever actually seen a "precinct armory" let alone the heavy weapons it's supposed to house. Anyhow, I hope for the sake of the officers that they didn't hit any bystanders but the city will likely get sued either way. They might not be modified because the shooting appears justified but they'll carry a burden forever if they did accidentally hit bystanders.
As for NYC, no surprise that bloomdouche attacked the 2nd amendment. Get out if you can. The place is a mess.
Thank you sir for that bit of insight.
Wow, I just watched that video several times.
The cops come running up knowing they are chasing an armed killer. No weapons drawn. When shooter pulls weapon, cop in front turns his back and spins off blocking the second cop. Finally as he turns back he is able to draw his weapon and I'm not sure if was firing or not but was not on target. Finally the second cop get's to shooting position. The second cop actually looks like he was prepared to get the guy and cop 1 got in his way.
Why in the world did they not have their weapons drawn!? If they had had had their weapons drawn that guy might have never tried to draw on them. Or even if he did, he wouldn't have had a chance.
Looking again... they see the guy at least by 0:12. Possibly before that but not in camera frame. C2(rear) seems to have weapon drawn within one second. C1(front) doesn't draw until 0:17 and blocks C2.
Also I think that guy that got shot in elbow is talking some BS about where he was and how far away.
No citizens were struck by intact projectiles. All of those injuries were treated and released within minutes. 2 people were hospitalized for medical complaints related to the incident such as high blood pressure.
Thus, nobody was actually shot by the police except the gunman. Perhaps we could do a better job of not jumping to conclusions or swallowing preliminary media reports hook, line, and sinker.
Where are you getting the info regarding the injuries and that nobody was struck by an intact projectile? The most recent reporting I've read was that all were admitted for wounds, at least one was being kept due to high blood pressure. According to CNN as of ~45 minutes ago: "Three victims suffered gunshot wounds, while the remaining six were hit by fragments". Yesterday, the story was: "Kelly had said the bystanders were not hit directly by police, but rather the officers' struck "flowerpots and other objects around, so ... their bullets fragmented and, in essence, that's what caused the wounds.", but Kelly and His Highness seemed to be in a contest over which of them could pass on the most bad info .
I'll settle for telling those who were so anxious to label the officers' actions as inept.
Sixteen rounds fired in a time of ~2.5 seconds at a stationary target at a distance of ~8 feet, resulting in nine bystanders being hospitalized. One cop went into Bruce Wills mode (shooting one-handed for no good reason). What information could possibly make this better?
ForTehNguyen
08-25-12, 12:48
3 hit by actual bullets, 6 injured by fragments. Shooter didnt get a shot off, used 5 rounds in his 1911 on his original victims, 2 in his gun when they found him.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html
video here. AWESOME shooting in the direction where bystanders ran. I wonder if their rounds overpenetrated. One cop shoots one handed, the other one gets in the line of fire between his partner and the shooter, while his one handed partner is pointing his pistol AT HIS PARTNERS HEAD.
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/08/24/multiple-people-reported-shot-near-empire-state-building/
Where are you getting the info regarding the injuries and that nobody was struck by an intact projectile? The most recent reporting I've read was that all were admitted for wounds, at least one was being kept due to high blood pressure. According to CNN as of ~45 minutes ago: "Three victims suffered gunshot wounds, while the remaining six were hit by fragments". Yesterday, the story was: "Kelly had said the bystanders were not hit directly by police, but rather the officers' struck "flowerpots and other objects around, so ... their bullets fragmented and, in essence, that's what caused the wounds.", but Kelly and His Highness seemed to be in a contest over which of them could pass on the most bad info .
Sixteen rounds fired in a time of ~2.5 seconds at a stationary target at a distance of ~8 feet, resulting in nine bystanders being hospitalized. One cop went into Bruce Wills mode (shooting one-handed for no good reason). What information could possibly make this better?
That one that I bolded, plus another yesterday that said all wounded were treated and released (except for people hospitalized for medical complaints such as the high BP and another with chest pain).
FWIW, nine people sought medical treatment. Six were treated and released. Three were hospitalized which generally means admitted for more than 23 hrs. It looks like 3 were hospitalized, with possibly one of those being admitted for a wound.
CarlosDJackal
08-25-12, 13:31
I believe this is all a lie. Everyone knows that since bloomberg instituted his Draconian Gun Control Laws and their illegal out of state investigations these incidents have gone the way of the Dodo bird.
This is nothing more than propaganda against NYC's greatest Emper... err.. Mayor.
They have now stated that the officers did indeed hit bystanders with rounds as well as shrapnel.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justice/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Moose-Knuckle
08-25-12, 16:05
My understanding is that all of the "injuries" were minor scrapes from bullet fragments, ricochet, or abrasions from crawling on the ground. No citizens were struck by intact projectiles. All of those injuries were treated and released within minutes. 2 people were hospitalized for medical complaints related to the incident such as high blood pressure.
Thus, nobody was actually shot by the police except the gunman. Perhaps we could do a better job of not jumping to conclusions or swallowing preliminary media reports hook, line, and sinker.
I doubt the Bloomberg is reading this forum. However, I'll settle for telling those who were so anxious to label the officers' actions as inept.
Somehow I think if that was your wife and child struck by "bullet fragments and ricochets" from the NYPD you would be singing a different tune.
NYPD: Empire State victims hit by police gunfire
NEW YORK (AP) — "All nine people wounded during a dramatic confrontation between police and a gunman outside the Empire State Building were struck by bullets fired by the two officers, police said Saturday, citing ballistics evidence".
"In the initial chaos Friday, it wasn't clear whether Johnson or the officers were responsible for the trail of wounded, but based on ballistic and other evidence, "it appears that all nine of the victims were struck either by fragments or by bullets fired by police," Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly told reporters on Saturday at a community event in Harlem."
http://news.yahoo.com/nypd-empire-state-victims-hit-police-gunfire-180844387.html
For those of you who've seen the video, what would you have done in those circumstances?
- Crowded street pursuing a suspected shooter; then the gunman suddenly turns and points his weapon at you inside 10 yds.
I'm not a LEO, but I would have had my weapon drawn.
For those of you who've seen the video, what would you have done in those circumstances?
- Crowded street pursuing a suspected shooter; then the gunman suddenly turns and points his weapon at you inside 10 yds.
Shoot the threat not the innocent bystanders.
From watching the video, IMO neither of those 2 cops seem to have any idea on how to approach a possible armed shooter with any sort of tactical forethought, ability or training . It almost looked to me like they were surprised when the shooter pulled his gun out. Between the first guy tap dancing by the subject and the other with his one handed mag dump, to me it that looked like an "OH SHIT" reaction. I think they were somewhat surprised.
I don't know how long the 2 LEO where in pursuit of the shooter, how long they followed him, or how long it took them to catch up to him, but it seems to me neither of them discussed how to approach the threat before doing it. Guns weren't out, their position to each other while approaching the shooter was not tactically sound and even their engagement of the target at a mere 6 or 8 feet was pathetic.
If there's ever been a quintessential example of what not to do, it's this event.
I know it's easy to tear apart a situation like this after the fact, and all we have is a mere few seconds of video to comment on, but in IMO, this whole thing was a disaster.
Does anyone know how long it took the cops to catch up to him? I think that's a huge factor on how these guys reacted or could have reacted.
ForTehNguyen
08-25-12, 18:02
im reading in several places that NYPD cops have to have an "NYPD trigger" in their service Glocks that are 12lbs.
However long it took to walk about one city block.
He was shot on 5th Ave between e 35th and 34th(ESB).
when you look at that video you can see a group of people. One woman in a pink or orange shirt. When you see them start to move ( the guy starts moving first). then the cops emerge. You can see the second cop draw his weapon. It's very clear. About 1 sec after it's clear everyone there in that group becomes alerted to something wrong. The shooter is just behind the flower pot.
But the cop in front, at one point it looks like he has a weapon then it doesn't. That's when he swings around. But he clearly had that "oh shit" look.
ForTehNguyen
08-25-12, 19:17
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/nypd-explains-why-their-bullets-wounded-nine-people-yesterday/56198/
The NYPD Explains Why Their Bullets Wounded Nine People Yesterday
CONNOR SIMPSON 12:23 PM ET
It's official. The New York Police Department have admitted that all nine people wounded yesterday in the Empire State Building shootout were from bullets they fired at Jeffrey Johnson.
CNN's David Ariosto reports the NYPD said the two officers that confronted Johnson fired a total of 16 shots. "One officer shot nine while another one shot seven," they said. Police commissioner Ray Kelly explained the injured bystanders were hit by ricocheting bullets. The shots hit "flowerpots and other objects around, so ... their bullets fragmented and, in essence, that's what caused the wounds." Thankfully, most of the victims have been treated and released from the hospital already.
The next question the NYPD will have to answer is why the two officers needed to fire 16 bullets to take down one man who, as we can see in the video, was only a few feet away from them. People began to suspect the nine wounded were hurt by NYPD bullets yesterday when the math didn't add up. The .45-caliber pistol Johnson used carries eight bullets. Five of those were used to kill the victim, two were left in the chamber, and one was found unfired on the ground after the shootout.
Somehow I think if that was your wife and child struck by "bullet fragments and ricochets" from the NYPD you would be singing a different tune.
You may be correct - especially if she was seriously wounded by an errant bullet. I'm less likely to be on the war path for a minor graze wound from a bullet fragment sustained under exigent circumstances. Then again, I'm sure many of our attitudes towards life's curve balls would change if we applied such hypotheticals.
What I would not be doing is armchair quarterbacking it from 400 miles away using preliminary media reports. I also would not be using the actions of these two officers to draw generalizations to NYPD training, or trying to further the notion of a police state.
I suppose the reasons for my reluctance are twofold. First, I'm not a cop and I'm not versed in NYPD polices. That makes me unqualified to be their judge in this type of situation. Second, I give cops the benefit of a full vetting of the facts before I cast a negative opinion of actions under duress. I begin with the assumption that their actions were proper until I'm provided with facts from a thorough investigation to change my mind. Experience has taught me that preliminary media reports and press conferences are not reliable sources for hard facts - they provide more disinformation than clarity.
Now, if LEO's want to chime in on this one with their insights, then I'm all ears. In addition, I'm plenty comfortable with people going after politicians or beurocrates for providing erroneous information.
Being in certain places is dangerous. That includes NY City streets.
I think the officers acted correctly. They fired until the threat was over. Good job is what I say!
Moose-Knuckle
08-25-12, 20:48
You may be correct - especially if she was seriously wounded by an errant bullet. I'm less likely to be on the war path for a minor graze wound from a bullet fragment sustained under exigent circumstances. Then again, I'm sure many of our attitudes towards life's curve balls would change if we applied such hypotheticals.
What I would not be doing is armchair quarterbacking it from 400 miles away using preliminary media reports. I also would not be using the actions of these two officers to draw generalizations to NYPD training, or trying to further the notion of a police state.
I suppose the reasons for my reluctance are twofold. First, I'm not a cop and I'm not versed in NYPD polices. That makes me unqualified to be their judge in this type of situation. Second, I give cops the benefit of a full vetting of the facts before I cast a negative opinion of actions under duress. I begin with the assumption that their actions were proper until I'm provided with facts from a thorough investigation to change my mind. Experience has taught me that preliminary media reports and press conferences are not reliable sources for hard facts - they provide more disinformation than clarity.
You are a physician correct, so you have taken the Hippocratic Oath (do no harm) if I’m not mistaken. Your patients and their families in trust that you will help to the best of your abilities, not make the complaint worse.
When LE is called to a scene of an active shooter and they end up shooting NINE PEOPLE who are in fact bystanders their credibility goes straight out the window and they make it hard, REALLY HARD for every other LEO out there putting their ass on the line. This is the kind of shit that happens in Russia. I feel bad for these two NYPD officers, I really do. The situation was dire on the crowded streets of NYC. But from everything that has been released to now, it appears these two were very inexperienced and as a result nine civilians got bullets in them.
Too bad former NYPD Jim Cirillo wasn't on watch that day, may he RIP.
Both sides are right here.
Its another damned if you do, damned if you don't police use of DPF case.
I submit this:
Absent the BG walking into an alley, into a landfill, or onto a firearms range, in a place like NYC, there won't be many pristine backdrops for well intentioned misses to land. Up and down the street, you'd have a ton of bystanders, and even if the officers could quarter out into the street, so they're shooting with the sidewalk and the building behind the BG you still have to deal with pedestrians, and whatever's on the facade of the building itself (concrete, glass window cafe, construction site).
OK, we follow him instead. How far? 2 blocks, 3? In Midtown Manhattan, you're not going to get a much better backdrop. What if he gets into a car? Do we have stop cars ready, that can get in position in that traffic? Do we risk a pursuit or a barricade situation if we stop him in a car, or a hostage situation if he gets in a cab or gets in a building? What if this wasn't a targeted killing, but an active shooter?
Who knows. Maybe these cops were going to try to follow him out in the off chance he finds his way into an open area. But, ultimately, the guy turns and forces the officers' hands. At this point, there's little one can do but react, and they did. Unless they let the guy crack some rounds off first. For their own safety, and for people uprange, thats not an option. I don't fault the cops nearly as much as I do their administration. Of course, the Viceroy of New York is trying his damnedest to spin this in his favor.
So, they shoot, the BG goes down, and rounds go downrange. All too often, we're lucky with our misses, but we can't rely on luck, nor should we. This time, those rounds found homes. This is still unacceptable. Its one of those times where one has to accept that under stress, accuracy diminishes and misses happen, but we also have to concede that in such situations, misses are still unacceptable.
I won't, and can't, excuse an officer or agency for poor marksmanship standards. NYPD seems to have a habit of not pushing firearms training out to the front line officers. They also don't do them any favors by giving them those atrocious NY2 triggers (whether or not they were a factor here is uncertain).
As an institution (LE firearms trainers) this incident should be a wake up call for us to encourage and if possible, enforce, tighter accuracy standards, moving targets, and more challenging scenario based training. We also have to break the square range mentality, and come to a better understanding of how Rule #4 works.
Again, no excusing the unintentional hits downrange, but one must understand that sometimes the fight finds you, and you can't pick the scenario all the time. Training should reflect this more.
Chamelbox, I assume that you are LE. If so, thanks for the insights. You articulated most of the feelings that I had about this incident, but didn't have the experience or ability to put on paper (er...I mean computer).
Clearly, NY3 triggers are needed.
You are a physician correct, so you have taken the Hippocratic Oath (do no harm) if I’m not mistaken...
Yea, I was once a physician. However, I quickly realized that a good chunk of my patients were criminals. Thus, I renounced that oath and I'm returning to a career that issues me a weapon :D.
Again, no excusing the unintentional hits downrange, but one must understand that sometimes the fight finds you, and you can't pick the scenario all the time. Training should reflect this more.
I have wondered if the cop in front may have thought he could actually jump the guy with Cop2 covering him before the shooter was even aware of them.
The shooter didn't look to big and the cop looked like a pretty good sized guy. I'm wondering if because of all the people, the planters and other obstructions that maybe he was thinking he was going to tackle the guy before he knew what hit him. That's the only reason I can come up with as to why he didn't draw his weapon sooner. -If- that was his plan... he actually almost was able to do that. 2 seconds(maybe less) and he could have succeeded.
I know you sharp eyed readers caught this part of the latest media report on the condition of the killer's gun:
"Five of those were used to kill the victim, two were left in the chamber, and one was found unfired on the ground after the shootout. "
He must have had a double chambered pistol.:secret:
From CNN: "Johnson died from nine gunshot wounds in his chest, the medical examiner's office said. Three bullets were recovered from his body, while another four bullets exited his body, the medical examiner said. No explanation was given for two apparently unaccounted for bullets."
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/26/us/new-york-empire-state-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
I have wondered if the cop in front may have thought he could actually jump the guy with Cop2 covering him before the shooter was even aware of them.
I think you are absolutely right in your analysis.
. . . there's no better place in the US to study in my field.
Which is?
I was out for a run, coming down 6th Ave a few blocks above the incident. Heard the shots, but didn't have eyes on anything. As soon as I finish studying Arabic I'm going to GTFO of this city, because being constantly unarmed is some bullshit. Unfortunately, there's no better place in the US to study in my field.
Why not Monterey?
Magic_Salad0892
08-27-12, 06:05
I know you sharp eyed readers caught this part of the latest media report on the condition of the killer's gun:
"Five of those were used to kill the victim, two were left in the chamber, and one was found unfired on the ground after the shootout. "
He must have had a double chambered pistol.:secret:
Doublefeed. :big_boss:
Which is?
The Middle East, Arabic, and Islamic Theology.
Why not Monterey?
Good institution, but I'd bet NYC provides more opportunity for interaction with diverse Arabic speakers (colloquial version of the language matter more than in perhaps any other language).
Plus, here I can drive 45 minutes to my friend's property and shoot out to damn near 1K. And I now have two pre-ban lowers and almost 50 pre-ban 30 round magazines. So, besides the major PITA factor of acquiring that stuff, I really have no major impediment to my shooting here (not that it's right or that I in any way condone NY laws - just being practical under less than ideal circumstances). CA would be far worse.
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