View Full Version : NEW M&P 9mms?
How are those new M&P 9mms. DID they fix the accuracy problems? I just handled one in a store and while the trigger felt great, the barrel seemed to have considerable play in the slide.
Also, how are the standard S&W night sights?
ChicagoTex
08-24-12, 13:53
Just to be clear, the 9mm M&Ps accuracy issues stem from a slow twist rate on the barrel's rifling, not anything to do with the slide/barrel relationship.
I too would be curious to know if this has finally been addressed.
Define new?
The 2012 production guns ive felt had the worst triggers ive ever felt in any M&P. They've obviously not gone over to the Shields revised trigger bar yet.
The guns had less over travel but they had more creep than a serbian rebel's AK. They were gritty and wildly inconsistent. At least prior to these guns the triggers sucked in a fairly consistent manner. (They weren't that bad, just far too much over travel in the stock system).
The brand new guns, 2012, that I messed with had great triggers.
legumeofterror
08-24-12, 14:19
Just to be clear, the 9mm M&Ps accuracy issues stem from a slow twist rate on the barrel's rifling, not anything to do with the slide/barrel relationship.
I too would be curious to know if this has finally been addressed.
They cannot revise the twist rate because they use stainless steel barrels.
As I recently reported, I am quite happy with the accuracy of the new M&P9 I got last month, in fact the accuracy is EXACTLY the same as on my newest G19. FWIW, the M&P trigger with Apex Duty Kit feels better to me than the G19 with polished OEM "-" connector and stock trigger return spring.
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7956&filename=M&P9RMR_G19H1.jpg
At 25 yds using Federal 147 gr FMJ AE9FP training ammo, both pistols shot EXACTLY the same score on an NRA B8 bull when shot freehand, as shown on the targets below.
G19:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7957&filename=G19%20H1%2025%20yd.jpg
M&P9
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7958&filename=M&P9%20RMR%2025%20yd.jpg
ChicagoTex
08-24-12, 15:00
They cannot revise the twist rate because they use stainless steel barrels.
I'm not doubting your words, but could you possibly help me understand why the use of stainless steel barrels is a factor? Is there some maximum twist rate stainless steel can support before failing or something?
DocGKR, very interesting stuff. Now I'm starting to wonder if the twist rate thing was a lie. Or is it possible they did something else entirely to compensate for the twist rate problem?
I'm not a barrel expert as you can probably tell...
http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/06/s-m-barrels.html
I don't shoot much past 15yds but my June 2012 production fullsize shoots great, has been reliable and doesn't seem to auto-forward unless I really try. Meanwhile Glock is busy screwing their guns up.
rodinal220
08-24-12, 15:29
How are those new M&P 9mms. DID they fix the accuracy problems? I just handled one in a store and while the trigger felt great, the barrel seemed to have considerable play in the slide.
Also, how are the standard S&W night sights?
Well S&W didn't fix the accuracy issue with my gun and others. My gun has poor accuracy at even 7 yards.The accuracy issue is real with the FULL SIZE M&P 9mm. There is a reason why Team S&W is running fitted Storm Lake barrels on their 9mm platform guns. Why the other caliber platform M&Ps shoot better is beyond me,but the 9mm FS guns you purchase may or may not have an issue,its a crap shoot.Most of the FS 9mm M&Ps I have shot are mediocre in accuracy with 115/124 grain bullets(standard pressure),they seem to favor 147s.Some folks get good ones and they shoot well.
I shot the FS M&P 9mm and .45 when they first came out,both were very accurate,especially the .45.The triggers were very gritty but the M&Ps I have examined lately do not have the grittiness,only heavy at 7lbs and stiff.The factory trigger can be tuned a little to smooth things out without aftermarket parts, but the weight isn't reduced. Reducing the factory trigger pull with factory parts requires altering the parts.
Its funny how a lot of folks love their M&P trigger pulls AFTER they put APEX parts in them.I'm sure when Grant hard fits those Storm Lake barrels the gun will be capable of fine accuracy and some APEX parts to boot wouldn't hurt.
I just expect a polymer framed striker fire service type pistol to shoot on average 3-4"(no more) with common types of ammo at 25 yards.If I needed to put in oversize barrels and hard fit them and replace the fire control parts I would have bought a 1911.
Maybe S&W should just sell a slide and semi stripped frame for $350 less than a new gun and I will put in the after market parts to make the gun shoot correctly.
If I can shoot my Sigs,Glocks,H&K,BHP,1911s,Xd/XDM,#213 chi-com
well enough why would the M&P be any different????
Well S&W didn't fix the accuracy issue with my gun and others. My gun has poor accuracy at even 7 yards.The accuracy issue is real with the FULL SIZE M&P 9mm. There is a reason that Team S&W is running fitted Storm Lake barrels on their 9mm platform guns. Why the other caliber platform M&Ps shoot better is beyond me,but the 9mm FS guns may or may not have an issue,its a crap shoot.Most of the FS 9mm M&Ps I have shot are mediocre in accuracy with 115/124 grain bullets(standard pressure),they seem to favor 147s.Some folks get good ones and they shoot well.
I shot the FS M&P 9mm and .45 when they first came out,both were very accurate,especially the .45.The triggers were very gritty but the M&Ps I have examined lately do not have the grittiness,only heavy at 7lbs and stiff.The factory trigger can be tuned a little to smooth things out without aftermarket parts, but the weight isn't reduced. Reducing the factory trigger pull with factory parts requires altering the parts.
Its funny how a lot of folks love their M&P trigger pulls AFTER they put APEX parts in them.I'm sure when Grant hard fits those Storm Lake barrels the gun will be capable of fine accuracy and some APEX parts to boot wouldn't hurt.
I just expect a polymer framed striker fire service type pistol to shoot on average 3-4"(no more) with common types of ammo at 25 yards.If I needed to put in oversize barrels and hard fit them and replace the fire control parts I would have bought a 1911.
Maybe S&W should just sell a slide and semi stripped frame for $350 less than a new gun and I will put in the after market parts to make the gun shoot correctly.
If I can shoot my Sigs,Glocks,H&K,BHP,1911s,Xd/XDM,#213 chi-com
well enough why whould the M&P be any different????
The new (last 2 months worth of production) has seen a great improvement to the M&P triggers. IMHO, they are equal to Glock's, but with less trigger weight (Glock's range in the 6-6.5LBS).
With that said, people mod Glock triggers all the time (after market part, polishing ,etc) so it is no different IMHO. Couple this fact that M&P's are nearly $100-$150 dollars CHEAPER than a Glock and you have room to add some aftermarket components.
It is true that the 9mm M&P accuracy is all over the place. We see some guns that are accurate and others that are not (like mine). I do agree that a duty weapon should be able to shoot 5" groups at 25yds.
C4
The brand new guns, 2012, that I messed with had great triggers.
I've observed the same thing in my 2012 m&ps (2 fs 2 compacts). good clean break and consistent noticeable reset.
accuracy has been iffy at longer distances, but the compacts are tack drivers
So... if I ask to pick up a few and pick one that has very little slide/barrel slop, I suppose it should be GTG?
That has very little to do with the problem. Read Randy Lee's comments on this issue.
It all gets frustrating.
I like the size of the G19 best. But... LE pricing is a 2 hour drive. And, I need a GFA to prevent Glock Bite. I can nail a Smith local for $455 w/NS and then get a $50 rebate (retired Mil). [That is why I asked about the NS].
Got a G19, but need to start looking at another polymer handgun or two if NOT for my youngest sons, before the 2nd Amendment gets side stepped again.
Not looking for a Compact, as I'm not a fan of the size as a "service gun". But that IS accurate - the FS seems to have issues. Too bad, because the new Smiths seem to have very good triggers, no reliability problems, AND, they offer high hand hold with NO slide bite. And, the modular grips seem to allow you to experiment with stippling, etc. The only thing holding me back is the accuracy issue...
The new (last 2 months worth of production) has seen a great improvement to the M&P triggers. IMHO, they are equal to Glock's, but with less trigger weight (Glock's range in the 6-6.5LBS).
With that said, people mod Glock triggers all the time (after market part, polishing ,etc) so it is no different IMHO. Couple this fact that M&P's are nearly $100-$150 dollars CHEAPER than a Glock and you have room to add some aftermarket components.
It is true that the 9mm M&P accuracy is all over the place. We see some guns that are accurate and others that are not (like mine). I do agree that a duty weapon should be able to shoot 5" groups at 25yds.
C4
Grant,
Do the new M&P compacts have the same trigger as the Shield?
It all gets frustrating.
I like the size of the G19 best. But... LE pricing is a 2 hour drive. And, I need a GFA to prevent Glock Bite. I can nail a Smith local for $455 w/NS and then get a $50 rebate (retired Mil). [That is why I asked about the NS].
Got a G19, but need to start looking at another polymer handgun or two if NOT for my youngest sons, before the 2nd Amendment gets side stepped again.
Not looking for a Compact, as I'm not a fan of the size as a "service gun". But that IS accurate - the FS seems to have issues. Too bad, because the new Smiths seem to have very good triggers, no reliability problems, AND, they offer high hand hold with NO slide bite. And, the modular grips seem to allow you to experiment with stippling, etc. The only thing holding me back is the accuracy issue...
I wouldn't let the accuracy issues hold you back. You might get a good one and if you do not, oversized barrels are almost here.
C4
Grant,
Do the new M&P compacts have the same trigger as the Shield?
I have not seen any new compacts so I cannot say.
C4
Another trigger question......would one of the new trigger bars solve the non-existant reset in an older M&P?
Thanks
packinaglock
08-24-12, 19:48
I recently tried out my M&P .40 fs with a stock 9mm barrel, now I've never shot a M&P 9fs. The recoil compaired to my 9mm glocks was like non existent. I can only assume that the 9mm M&P fs is the same. If this is the case I'm just itching for S&W to get things ironed out so I can pick one up.
It all gets frustrating.
I like the size of the G19 best. But... LE pricing is a 2 hour drive. And, I need a GFA to prevent Glock Bite. I can nail a Smith local for $455 w/NS and then get a $50 rebate (retired Mil). [That is why I asked about the NS].
Got a G19, but need to start looking at another polymer handgun or two if NOT for my youngest sons, before the 2nd Amendment gets side stepped again.
Not looking for a Compact, as I'm not a fan of the size as a "service gun". But that IS accurate - the FS seems to have issues. Too bad, because the new Smiths seem to have very good triggers, no reliability problems, AND, they offer high hand hold with NO slide bite. And, the modular grips seem to allow you to experiment with stippling, etc. The only thing holding me back is the accuracy issue...
for that price I would definitely get one. Have you tried the compact? it feels really similar in size to me to the glock 19. Also, I've put s&w's XGrip on my compact (allows you to put FS magazines flush in the compact) and they do a good job
As I recently reported, I am quite happy with the accuracy of the new M&P9 I got last month, in fact the accuracy is EXACTLY the same as on my newest G19. FWIW, the M&P trigger with Apex Duty Kit feels better to me than the G19 with polished OEM "-" connector and stock trigger return spring.
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=7956&filename=M&P9RMR_G19H1.jpg
Sir, could you tell me something about your G19 with the Aimpoint Micro? Are you using a rail mount or something else for it? Can you use the iron sights through the Micro? Feel free to reply privately to avoid derailing the discussion. I have tried searching the site, but couldn't find anything about it.
Thanks!
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=110751
The G19 uses the Unity Tactical ATOM mount--this is the best mount for the micro-Aimpoint. You can also install an RMR or DeltaPoint on the ATOM. The M&P9 RMR is directly milled into the slide. The BIS on both the M&P9 and G19 co-witness with the red dot.
Back to the M&P:
for that price I would definitely get one. Have you tried the compact? it feels really similar in size to me to the glock 19. Also, I've put s&w's XGrip on my compact (allows you to put FS magazines flush in the compact) and they do a good job
I have ONE issue with Compact guns in general. Does the X Grip get in the way of a clean mag drop? With gloves on? For example, on my XD 45 Compact, the 10 rounders are fine, but the mag extension on the 13 rounders sometimes gets in the way with my fat hands.
On the M&P, this MIGHT work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OikzZqGVfx0&feature=related
But now each mag gets to be a $50 proposition...
Key is to extend the capacity and contact in the front WITHOUT the contact in the rear.
Hogsgunwild
08-25-12, 10:37
Back to the M&P:
I have ONE issue with Compact guns in general. Does the X Grip get in the way of a clean mag drop? With gloves on? For example, on my XD 45 Compact, the 10 rounders are fine, but the mag extension on the 13 rounders sometimes gets in the way with my fat hands.
I have taken my M&P compact 9MM out shooting three times this week with a new X-Grip on a 17 round mag. I had no issues. I also have medium sized hands. The adapter does allow me to shoot tighter groupings, when I do my part. I say that because I am predominantly shooting and carrying my PPQs these days and I am not presently as consistent performance-wise with my M&P 9MM compact. The second time out with the X-Grip, I shot several sub-three-inch grouping at 25 yards. The very next day I was so inconsistent with the M&P that I put it away and went to my PPQ. One big factor in the PPQ's favor is it is not nearly as finicky with what type of ammo I feed it when it comes to accuracy. Luckily, both guns do very well with my favorite range load; 115gr. S&B, and my favorite carry load; 124gr. +P Gold Dot Short Barrel. Without the X-Grip, I have never done much better than about a four inch group with my compact.
I seem to be approaching the final stretch in the decision making process of which platform (M&P or PPQ) will win out for carry duty. It is a very tough choice. The day that I shot the sub three inch groups, the M&P became very appealing and it was the X-Grip that gave it so much appeal.
I think that for $12.99, you should order the X-Grip and find out about how the reloads work with your hands and with gloves. I could see the potential for an issue so you would need to find out for yourself.
Sorry about the winded platform comparison but the point is that I am really wringing the 9MM compact out and nit-picking every factor that I can and the X-Grip gave the compact a shot in the arm.
As an afterthought, I have never cared much for extended magazine in pistols. I have shot the M&P 9MM compact for hundreds of rounds using the 17 round mags and NO X-Grip and have never once had any issue reliability wise. Now, after trying the X-Grip, the set-up seems that much more stable and solid. It is a lot tighter and stable where the extension meets the frame than the grip extender I used to have for my Glock 27s.
I just steered a couple of buddies to the M&Pc. It seems from all the errornet renderings to be one of the most accurate OTB guns available.
Does the X grip stay in place for carrying and reloading from a pouch?
Just wish Smith did make a slightly more compact than FS.
Does the X grip stay in place for carrying and reloading from a pouch?
I've been wondering about this too. I didn't know about the x grip until this thread, and I am excited to try one.
Just wish Smith did make a slightly more compact than FS.
The failure to have something G19 sized seems like a pretty big oversight. Most everyone loves the size of the G19 (I personally think it is a perfect compromise in terms of concealability and handling) and it isn't uncommon to find people who chose Glock over the M&P purely because of the size of the G19.
On that note, I read elsewhere that Burwell does a chop on the FS that puts is G19ish.. anyone done that? How does that work? Sounds like it may make for a pretty neat setup.
It all gets frustrating.
I like the size of the G19 best. But... LE pricing is a 2 hour drive. And, I need a GFA to prevent Glock Bite. I can nail a Smith local for $455 w/NS and then get a $50 rebate (retired Mil). [That is why I asked about the NS].
Got a G19, but need to start looking at another polymer handgun or two if NOT for my youngest sons, before the 2nd Amendment gets side stepped again.
Not looking for a Compact, as I'm not a fan of the size as a "service gun". But that IS accurate - the FS seems to have issues. Too bad, because the new Smiths seem to have very good triggers, no reliability problems, AND, they offer high hand hold with NO slide bite. And, the modular grips seem to allow you to experiment with stippling, etc. The only thing holding me back is the accuracy issue...
You seem to have sold yourself on the M&P. If that's the case, why not just get it. Here's the thing, Gun with night sights, DCAEK trigger package and polished components is $609.00 from G&R. If you have to add the barrel, it's $200.00 additional, which is $809.00. You're squarely in the HK/Sig price range, but it's a gun you want. If you go Glock, $500.00 for the gun, $150.00 for night sights, and I hate to break this to you, but Glocks can also be very ammo centric when it comes to longer range accuracy. So you might end up having to either find the load that it likes and stick with it or you may have to put a match grade barrel in the Glock as well.
My point is that no matter how you look at it, you're probably going to be in the $800.00 range anyway. Why not get the gun you want? Btw, I don't know whether or not it's been addressed, but do you shoot this gun better than the others or just like it better, not always the same thing.
I got the FS from Grant about 2 months ago. Not sure what to think about the trigger on it. I have mostly 1911's and the trigger almost feels like a cap gun that I had as a kid. I have the DCAEK kit and will be installing it this week. It also has accuracy issues which I hope will go away after the kit install. It impressed me with the first 2 shots out of the box dropping bowling pins set at 25 and 50 yds.
I got the FS from Grant about 2 months ago. Not sure what to think about the trigger on it. I have mostly 1911's and the trigger almost feels like a cap gun that I had as a kid. I have the DCAEK kit and will be installing it this week. It also has accuracy issues which I hope will go away after the kit install. It impressed me with the first 2 shots out of the box dropping bowling pins set at 25 and 50 yds.
Um..
The DCAEK will help the software interface better with the hardware, ie you will shoot the gun better.
Your gun is most likely NOT inherently inaccurate...
That's what I am hoping for. Thanks.
It also has accuracy issues which I hope will go away after the kit install.
If the accuracy improves after the DCEAK kit is installed, you are the accuracy issue vs the gun. The kit will have no direct mechanical impact on accuracy. Good luck. :cool:
You seem to have sold yourself on the M&P. If that's the case, why not just get it. Here's the thing, Gun with night sights, DCAEK trigger package and polished components is $609.00 from G&R. If you have to add the barrel, it's $200.00 additional, which is $809.00. You're squarely in the HK/Sig price range, but it's a gun you want. If you go Glock, $500.00 for the gun, $150.00 for night sights, and I hate to break this to you, but Glocks can also be very ammo centric when it comes to longer range accuracy. So you might end up having to either find the load that it likes and stick with it or you may have to put a match grade barrel in the Glock as well.
My point is that no matter how you look at it, you're probably going to be in the $800.00 range anyway. Why not get the gun you want? Btw, I don't know whether or not it's been addressed, but do you shoot this gun better than the others or just like it better, not always the same thing.
Already have a G19 that is reliable after 600 rds - we'll see. It is accurate, but seems to have what I call 'variable trigger'. I put a GFA on it, because of Glock bite, and I do like it. I can get them from an LEO dealer for $500 w/NS 2 hours away. But, would like to see all glowing reports on the Gen 4 before I get more.
M&P can be had local for $455 w/NS. (Then the Mil rebate - its a bit too good). But... needing to add a barrel for $200 seems a tad overkill. I have read one article on 'new' barrel lockup that seems to indicate Smith is starting to deal with this. Old threads here seem to indicate that accuracy problems in an M&P is a NEW thing. Just like reliability in a Glock is a NEW thing. Interesting times.
MAYBE I'll find one that seems to have a very tight barrel, and I'll grab it.
Back in the day, I never heard an issue with S&W accuracy or Glock reliability.
Already have a G19 that is reliable after 600 rds - we'll see. It is accurate, but seems to have what I call 'variable trigger'. I put a GFA on it, because of Glock bite, and I do like it. I can get them from an LEO dealer for $500 w/NS 2 hours away. But, would like to see all glowing reports on the Gen 4 before I get more.
M&P can be had local for $455 w/NS. (Then the Mil rebate - its a bit too good). But... needing to add a barrel for $200 seems a tad overkill. I have read one article on 'new' barrel lockup that seems to indicate Smith is starting to deal with this. Old threads here seem to indicate that accuracy problems in an M&P is a NEW thing. Just like reliability in a Glock is a NEW thing. Interesting times.
MAYBE I'll find one that seems to have a very tight barrel, and I'll grab it.
Back in the day, I never heard an issue with S&W accuracy or Glock reliability.
What's variable trigger? Meaning it doesn't react the same every time?
I can see movement at the front sight while dry firing with this trigger. Wouldn't that make a difference when actually shooting? I think that it would be very erratic the further out you shot with it. But that is just my opinion and not an expert at all.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=110751
The G19 uses the Unity Tactical ATOM mount--this is the best mount for the micro-Aimpoint. You can also install an RMR or DeltaPoint on the ATOM. The M&P9 RMR is directly milled into the slide. The BIS on both the M&P9 and G19 co-witness with the red dot.
Thank you--Looks like L&M Precision is doing the actual installs.
Variable trigger refers to a bit of inconsistency. Its takeup changes as does the break sometimes. I am absolutely doomed in this regard. All my pistols have this. I pick up Glocks all the time that are utterly consistent.
Variable trigger refers to a bit of inconsistency. Its takeup changes as does the break sometimes. I am absolutely doomed in this regard. All my pistols have this. I pick up Glocks all the time that are utterly consistent.
LOL. Sorry to hear that.
Just to be clear, the 9mm M&Ps accuracy issues stem from a slow twist rate on the barrel's rifling, not anything to do with the slide/barrel relationship.
From reading the opinions of folks like Randy Lee, I've been under the impression that it's a combination of twist rate, sloppy barrel/slide lock-up, and early barrel/slide unlocking.
LOL. Sorry to hear that.
I'd have to take someone with me to buy the weapon, then, buy it from them, otherwise, I would get one with 'variable' trigger.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.