View Full Version : Lowers with right side bolt release
Which have them?
I can think of:
KAC SR-15
AXTS AX556
Lancer L15
AR15.com / Magpul billet lower
Seekins Precision
LWRC M6 IC
Mega Arms
Colt Sp901 (sort of lol)
Is the right side bolt release necessary? It doesn't seem standardized but most of them seem to be in the same location and work on the same principle. Is it worth paying an extra couple hundred of dollars for this feature?
MikeCLeonard
08-24-12, 16:39
I bought a couple of the AXTS lowers because I liked the ambi features and figured that if it doesn't hurt anything, then why not? They're really really nice lowers and all the ambi-controls are setup very intuitively, but they're certainly not necessary. A $600 Aimpoint, $300 weapon-light, or even $1,200 AR15 is not necessary for anything in my life personally...but they're nice to have, and I have fun with it.
If you're on a strict budget, the extra money could easily go toward something more critical such as sights, optics, a light, ammo, sling, etc.
I personally don't see any downside other than cost...so if cost is not an issue, go for it.
BAD lever and be done with it.
justin_247
08-24-12, 20:42
It's completely unnecessary.
It's completely unnecessary.
How do you release the bolt when doing left handed drills? I can't actually reach the top of the bolt release/catch with my left hand without almost letting go of the pistol grip.
I guess I could just turn the entire weapon over and slap the bolt release with my right hand or I guess run a BAD lever.
justin_247
08-24-12, 21:52
How do you release the bolt when doing left handed drills? I can't actually reach the top of the bolt release/catch with my left hand without almost letting go of the pistol grip.
I guess I could just turn the entire weapon over and slap the bolt release with my right hand or I guess run a BAD lever.
To ME (with emphasis... you may find a better way of doing this), I rotate the rifle to the left (magwell facing to the right), drop the mag with my support hand thumb (the right hand), insert a new mag, and then reach up and around the magwell with my support hand and drop the bolt.
NOTE: I'm a righty and rarely shoot this way. I need to practice more.
If you're a lefty, a BAD may help, but it causes malfunctions on some rifles. Generally, I think one should shy away from things that can cause malfunctions. I'm not a big fan of "racing guns."
Practice.
Presuming you don't have extremely short hands/fingers, once you insert/seat the mag with your right hand, continue to slide your right hand up the mag while sliding your fingers around the magwell, keeping your thumb on the right side of the receiver until your index or middle finger can reach the bolt release, then press. Bolt slams home, then move your right hand out to your froward grip. Rinse and repeat.
Go to the range, load all your mags with one round and do about 60 reps.
Both advanced carbine classes that I took (Mike Panonne and Pat MacNamera) drilled home the necessity to not waste motion and time doing anything.
If you are a left handed shooter, then it is in your interest to get a rifle outfitted for left hand, but you need to learn how to operate a right hand rifle.
I have all manner of ambi crap on my rifle, and made a point to be proficient in not using them (thank you Mike Pannone) in the unlikely event that I may have to ditch my rifle for another that does not have those features.
...
Is the right side bolt release necessary? ... Is it worth paying an extra couple hundred of dollars for this feature?
I don't believe it is necessary since the design lasted over a half century without one.
Is it worth it? To me no, but it may be to you.
Army Chief
08-25-12, 08:00
I've more or less standardized on the KAC SR-15E3 and AXTS AX556 lowers, and find both to be incredibly useful from the southpaw perspective. While not needed, after some 30 years of adhering to the standardization thing in the Army, I've shifted positions a bit, and gained a fresh appreciation for rifles optimized according to my own purposes and preferences. Having also owned one of the "unobtainable" Magpul MPLA lowers for many years, I would also add it to your original list, though the AX556 strikes me as the better solution in many ways.
AC
Practice.
Presuming you don't have extremely short hands/fingers, once you insert/seat the mag with your right hand, continue to slide your right hand up the mag while sliding your fingers around the magwell, keeping your thumb on the right side of the receiver until your index or middle finger can reach the bolt release, then press. Bolt slams home, then move your right hand out to your froward grip. Rinse and repeat.
Go to the range, load all your mags with one round and do about 60 reps.
Both advanced carbine classes that I took (Mike Panonne and Pat MacNamera) drilled home the necessity to not waste motion and time doing anything.
If you are a left handed shooter, then it is in your interest to get a rifle outfitted for left hand, but you need to learn how to operate a right hand rifle.
I have all manner of ambi crap on my rifle, and made a point to be proficient in not using them (thank you Mike Pannone) in the unlikely event that I may have to ditch my rifle for another that does not have those features.
That same argument could be made for owning an AK or any other weapon- that you should be proficient in all other manner of common fire arms because you may have to ditch it. So while the ar platform is indeed extremely popular and you may have to ditch your scar/m1/ak/sr-15, I don't see a reason not to have a "better" (subject to opinion) platform until that unlikely scenario happens ... Unless you're le/mil. I am mil, but I'm as rear echelon as you can get.
But thanks sticks for the comment, I will definitely practice with reps on my regular lower.
I don't find the right side bolt release to be useful at all. Being able to lock the bolt to the rear with your right hand would be somewhat useful .
I think too much of the what ifs take place in these discussions with too little realistic threat assessment. Most don't have training time to get good enough shooting LH around cover to use it for real and would be better off making hits RH.
I have all manner of ambi crap on my rifle, and made a point to be proficient in not using them (thank you Mike Pannone) in the unlikely event that I may have to ditch my rifle for another that does not have those features.
Army Chief
08-25-12, 19:03
Todd obviously knows what he is talking about here, but keep in mind that it is a largely right-handed perspective. If you're a left-shouldered rifleman, the advantages become infinitely more significant in my view -- not because the weapon cannot be effectively manipulated without ambi controls, but because it becomes a far more fluid and intuitive process with them.
AC
a BAD may help, but it causes malfunctions on some rifles. Generally, I think one should shy away from things that can cause malfunctions. I'm not a big fan of "racing guns."
From what I read on all the malfunctions they were mostly(from what I remember searching a year + ago before I put my BAD levers on) traced back to either out of spec springs(not stiff enough) or out of spec bolt catches.
Is it an ideal solution for a lefty, not really since its more designed for a righty to be able to lock the bolt back easier, but it doesnt give a way to manipulate the bolt catch from the right side of the gun.
militarymoron
08-25-12, 19:37
If you're a left-shouldered rifleman, the advantages become infinitely more significant in my view -- not because the weapon cannot be effectively manipulated without ambi controls, but because it becomes a far more fluid and intuitive process with them.
AC
as a lefty, i strongly agree with this.
i've learned how to manipulate/shoot different weapons, but i've always set up my own to be as efficient as possible for me.
by the way, both the AX556 and A-DAC-F allow the right handed rifleman to lock the bolt to the rear with the right index finger.
Don Robison
08-25-12, 19:39
as a lefty, i strongly agree with this.
Same here; when I retired one of the first things I did was start exploring ambi-friendly controls and lowers.
Todd obviously knows what he is talking about here, but keep in mind that it is a largely right-handed perspective.
To be fair I'm left handed, mostly... I write and eat LH, but am right eye dominant and learned to shoot RH.
Because so few are LH and the OP didn't specify I did comment just on RH operation. I'm not opposed to LH shooters putting LH controls on, as long as they are quality. I think it's worth trying LH controls unless you have a job with a real need to be able to use a team mates standard carbine.
As a lefty ambi lowers make things easier and smoother to operate.
I have small hands/ fingers. With the bolt release on the right side after inserting a fresh mag, my thumb is in the perfect position to hit the bolt release.
When I use my left hand I have to rotate my hand from the pistol grip to hit the standard bolt release then require the proper hand placement on the grip.
Off topic slightly, I just sold all of my BCM mod 4 charging handles to replace them with the Ranier Arms raptor.
I've been waiting 23 years for a good to go ambi charging handle, I think I finally found it with the raptor. If your a lefty you need to get one to try it out.
I don't believe it is necessary since the design lasted over a half century without one.
Is it worth it? To me no, but it may be to you.
All the .mil firearms instructors I've had basically teach this, "the M4 is a very ergonomic weapon if you're right handed. If you're left handed, shoot right handed."
If you're on a strict budget, the extra money could easily go toward something more critical such as sights, optics, a light, ammo, sling, etc.
I personally don't see any downside other than cost...so if cost is not an issue, go for it.
I'm with this guy... There really isn't any valid argument to this topic. Yeah sure you can always adapt and overcome with practice.
But if price isn't a factor to you, it kind of seems like a no shit decision to make. Why not just optimize your weapon for your needs.
Even if your a righty and you have the extra coin laying around it seems like it would be a good idea. Better to have it and not need it than not have it at.
All the .mil firearms instructors I've had basically teach this, "the M4 is a very ergonomic weapon if you're right handed. If you're left handed, shoot right handed."
During my time in the military i have NEVER heard that from any instructor.
I know many people that are right handed but left eye dominant, and every instructor/drill instructor i've ever met always tells those individuals to learn to shoot left handed.
I'm not saying you can't shoot accurately with your non dominant eye, because with practice you can. But generally speaking it's easier to shoot accurately with your dominant eye.
I know many people that are right handed but left eye dominant, and every instructor/drill instructor i've ever met always tells those individuals to learn to shoot left handed.
I'm right-handed, left-eye dominant, and spent years shooting my AR15 SP1 right-handed -- the rifle doesn't have a brass deflector and I was tired of getting hit in the face with every shot.
I shoot my new SP6920 left-handed, and boy, what a difference clear vision (and being able to keep both eyes open) makes!
I've had only slight troubles adapting to running the controls left-handed. Most of those went away with practice. To work the bolt release, I jamb the web of my right hand (between index finger and thumb) into the top front of the magwell, under the delta ring; this gives me enough reach with my index finger to get to the bolt release.
All the .mil firearms instructors I've had basically teach this, "the M4 is a very ergonomic weapon if you're right handed. If you're left handed, shoot right handed."
This sounds like an instructor who is simply too lazy to take the time to help someone deal with adjusting to shooting left-handed, and is just kicking the can down the road.
I wonder how many lives have been lost because some trainees weren't taught to maximize their skills and effectiveness, because of the attitude of instructors like these?
This sounds like an instructor who is simply too lazy to take the time to help someone deal with adjusting to shooting left-handed, and is just kicking the can down the road.
I wonder how many lives have been lost because some trainees weren't taught to maximize their skills and effectiveness, because of the attitude of instructors like these?
Whoa, that's a heavy thought...:stop:
Magic_Salad0892
08-30-12, 22:51
Knowing how to shoot offhand is good. Ambi controls helps, and there is no reason I can think of that ambi controls is a bad thing.
That idea is absurd, and for purists. IMHO. (Except for Todd K.'s reasoning. That one makes sense, even though you could solve the problem by putting ambi mag catches, and safeties on all issue M4/M16 guns...)
I'm a RH shooter, but shoot lefty from time to time. This helps.
BTW. KAC needs ambi bolt catch. Hopefully we'll see it in the next few years by them.
But downgrading for the sake of consistancy, or simplicity is the perfect way to avoid progress.
But downgrading for the sake of consistancy, or simplicity is the perfect way to avoid progress.
this is my favorite post of the day
I used a POF lower for an ambi build. I am very pleased with it.
http://www.pof-usa.com/lower/lowerreceiver.htm
Magic_Salad0892
08-31-12, 20:49
I used a POF lower for an ambi build. I am very pleased with it.
http://www.pof-usa.com/lower/lowerreceiver.htm
Are those billet?
Are those billet?
"P415, Gen III billet machined 7075 T-6 Aircraft aluminum alloy with integral oversized trigger guard"
Magic_Salad0892
09-01-12, 01:34
"P415, Gen III billet machined 7075 T-6 Aircraft aluminum alloy with integral oversized trigger guard"
I guess I can't read...
Lancer, KAC... Forged, I believe all else are billet.
Jim
To be fair I'm left handed, mostly... I write and eat LH, but am right eye dominant and learned to shoot RH.
Because so few are LH and the OP didn't specify I did comment just on RH operation. I'm not opposed to LH shooters putting LH controls on, as long as they are quality. I think it's worth trying LH controls unless you have a job with a real need to be able to use a team mates standard carbine.
yeah Todd, that's me too. I still shoot pistol left-handed as it's not a big correction but I get a lot of questions and strange looks when I step up to the line with both on different sides :blink:
Magic_Salad0892
09-01-12, 13:26
Lancer, KAC... Forged, I believe all else are billet.
Jim
AXTS lowers are forged now aren't they?
The_War_Wagon
09-01-12, 14:17
"P415, Gen III billet machined 7075 T-6 Aircraft aluminum alloy with integral oversized trigger guard"
The right side bolt release was one of the few NIFTY things about my POF. Billet lowers don't do much for me, but I'd love that bolt release button on any rifle. Less cumbersome than a BAD lever, too.
Army Chief
09-01-12, 15:35
AXTS lowers are forged now aren't they?
Yes and no. The A-DAC-F is forged; however, the AX556 is a machined billet receiver.
AC
Magic_Salad0892
09-01-12, 17:05
Yes and no. The A-DAC-F is forged; however, the AX556 is a machined billet receiver.
AC
Thanks for clearin' me up on that, Chief.
Do you have any opinions on the subject of ambi lowers? Being a lefty and being an informative poster, I'm curious as to what your opinion would be.
militarymoron
09-01-12, 19:36
Thanks for clearin' me up on that, Chief.
Do you have any opinions on the subject of ambi lowers? Being a lefty and being an informative poster, I'm curious as to what your opinion would be.
post #9 in this thread?
Army Chief
09-01-12, 19:51
Do you have any opinions on the subject of ambi lowers?
Sure. To recap some of what I posted earlier, I subscribed to the whole "standardized kit" idea for many years, and just kept my ARs stock, since that was what was always going to be in the unit arms room. Over time, I did migrate toward the Norgon mag release and ambi selector mods for my own rifles, but that was about it -- and to be honest, I only used the selector with any real consistency. These were good improvements, but nothing truly revolutionary.
My first exposure to a truly ambidextrous lower came with the MPLA (Magpul), and although it wasn't exactly a day-and-night thing for me, the duplication of controls did enable me to do some things faster and with fewer work-arounds. The ability to manipulate the gun without devoting a lot of creative thought to making it an efficient process was refreshing, and I slowly came to terms with the fact that, even in combat, I was most often just carrying a handgun (M9), anyway.
I eventually added an SR-15E3 to the mix, and it was that weapon that really made me a believer. I still have decent enough muscle memory to do things the old way, but I no longer feel like it is important to "do without" just because a battlefield pickup weapon might not be configured the same way as my SR. In the same vein, I recently invested in an AXTS AX556, and have much the same opinion of this lower. These, to my mind anyway, do represent that "leap forward" that southpaws have been waiting for; especially now that we're seeing complimentary innovations like the RA Raptor charging handle and BAD ambi selector switch.
Taken as a whole, these components have truly changed the game for left-handed riflemen, and unless you're a particularly old or stubborn warhorse, most contemporary rifle designs already are incorporating ambi features, anyway. It only makes sense to invest in the equipment which which you are the most comfortable, able to grow the most competent, and which leave you most able to focus on the job at hand, rather than upon any nagging limitations that might otherwise be associated with the tool that you are using.
AC
This was the first lower I had with a ambi bolt release. I am a southpaw and I found that as a southpaw my trigger finger jammed up against the Magpul BAD lever when I was not up on target with my finger on the trigger ( I have pretty big paws.) I liked the Spikes so much I built my next with the AR15/Magpul lower, both also have BAD selectors and Norgan's. I also just picked up a Phase 5 Tactical ambi charging handle to replace my BCM Gunfighter. Like it a lot so far.
Magic_Salad0892
09-02-12, 16:37
post #9 in this thread?
I had forgot about that.
Thanks for the post, by the way AC. :)
having trouble locating a AR15/Magpul lower. are they still produced? anyone know where i could find one?
militarymoron
09-03-12, 18:47
having trouble locating a AR15/Magpul lower. are they still produced? anyone know where i could find one?
unless you're a hardcore magpul fan and want one to collect, you're better off buying another lower like the AX-556 or SR-15E3, which has many more features.
unless you're a hardcore magpul fan and want one to collect, you're better off buying another lower like the AX-556 or SR-15E3, which has many more features.
i do have my eye on an ax556.
i do have my eye on an ax556.
Unfortunately there is a 90 day wait. Plus it has proprietary parts. I am just gonna buy a BCM lower if I can ever find one and call it good.
Unfortunately there is a 90 day wait. Plus it has proprietary parts. I am just gonna buy a BCM lower if I can ever find one and call it good.
What's bad about proprietary parts?
having trouble locating a AR15/Magpul lower. are they still produced? anyone know where i could find one?
Mixed bag answer:
The Magpul lower is not produced anymore in that configuration and rollmark. They're collectors items now.
AR15.com bought the rights to that lower from Magpul and produce the exact same product, but with their rollmark on it. It might be out of stock or something, but they still produce and sell them on their website... which is the same as their company name. At that price however, I'd rather have an AX556 lower.
Smith and Wesson recently started producing the Magpul lower without the right side bolt release. It's also forged instead of billet.
What's bad about proprietary parts?...
Proprietary parts generally means that you are married to that manufacturer and their whims for said parts, which may or may not be in stock and available when you need it.
It would suck to have your rifle down for 6 weeks because of a lost spring or stripped thread, and having to pay a hefty premium for said part.
Army Chief
09-04-12, 07:29
i do have my eye on an ax556.
Although I remain a KAC proponent as well, I see no reason to look any further than the AX556, as it strikes me as the benchmark of the class right now.
AC
Proprietary parts generally means that you are married to that manufacturer and their whims for said parts, which may or may not be in stock and available when you need it.
It would suck to have your rifle down for 6 weeks because of a lost spring or stripped thread, and having to pay a hefty premium for said part.
Yet people recommend KAC as a top tier ar manufacturer regardless of the proprietary bolt, barrel extension/chamber, barrel nut, suppressor qd mount, and lower receiver?
I mean if we only ever stuck to non proprietary parts, how would we ever advance?
Army Chief
09-04-12, 10:15
I tend to look a the proprietary parts issue against the backdrop of the manufacturer's standing in the industry and long-term growth potential. For example, Knight's Armament isn't likely to be going anywhere in our lifetimes, so my sense is that SR-15E3 components will always be available to at least some extent. Similarily, AXTS is a relatively new player, but their quality and innovation suggest that they will see similar success in the years to come. The more AX556s are fielded, the greater the likelihood that -- even if Josh did fold up the company someday -- someone else out there would tool up to meet demand.
Another way of hedging one's bets in the here and now (aside from just buying spare parts you may never actually need), is to invest in more than one example of a proprietary firearm. Owning two SR-15s or two AX556-based carbines doubles the chances that you could always keep at least one of them up, even if there were no parts to be had. Granted, that may be an extreme approach to some, but there is something to be said for type standardization in general, once you find a combination of features and major components that meet your needs particularly well. If you like your first-line carbine enough to have puchased one of them, it very often makes sense to buy another built to the same specification -- proprietary parts or no.
AC
Yet people recommend KAC as a top tier ar manufacturer regardless of the proprietary bolt, barrel extension/chamber, barrel nut, suppressor qd mount, and lower receiver?
I mean if we only ever stuck to non proprietary parts, how would we ever advance?
I agree with you on the advancement issue. My problem is paying $500 for a stripped lower I have to wait 90 days for and it comes stripped. There are proprietary parts used in the very minor (IMO) advancements. If they are 90 days behind in getting me the lower, what if I need replacement parts? KAC is on another playing field than AXTS btw in my eyes.
I agree with you on the advancement issue. My problem is paying $500 for a stripped lower I have to wait 90 days for and it comes stripped. There are proprietary parts used in the very minor (IMO) advancements. If they are 90 days behind in getting me the lower, what if I need replacement parts? KAC is on another playing field than AXTS btw in my eyes.
It is pretty far from stripped.
It is pretty far from stripped.
That's what the website said when I looked at it. I could be wrong.
That's what the website said when I looked at it. I could be wrong.
Well you get the ambi bolt catch... Which as a lefty is damn near priceless , then the ambi mag release, battle arms ambi sftey selector, some tensioning detent, anti rotation pin, ext, ext. by the time you through all that stuff into a stripped billet lower from another manufacturer you have spent 500 bucks maybe more.
So, you just need to get a FCG and take down pins & springs.
Mostly stripped.
snakedoctor
09-25-13, 11:16
Does anyone know if the AXTS556 lower compatible with the Surefire MAG-60 magazine?
Does anyone know if the AXTS556 lower compatible with the Surefire MAG-60 magazine?
According to this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=71915&page=7
It is
snakedoctor
09-25-13, 12:00
According to this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=71915&page=7
It is
Thanks Koshinn. We can also add Rainier Arms to the list of lowers with right side bolt release.
justin_247
09-25-13, 19:53
We can also add Rainier Arms to the list of lowers with right side bolt release.
Link? I don't see any Rainier Arms branded lowers on their website that have ambi controls.
Aero Precision, on the other hand:
http://aeroprecisionusa.com/shop/ar15-stripped-ambidextrous-lower
snakedoctor
09-25-13, 22:10
Link? I don't see any Rainier Arms branded lowers on their website that have ambi controls.
Aero Precision, on the other hand:
http://aeroprecisionusa.com/shop/ar15-stripped-ambidextrous-lower
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3638
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3637
justin_247
09-25-13, 23:22
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3638
https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3637
That's a Mega lower with Rainier branding. Nothing new here.
The AXTS lowers are worth every penny. Got a bunch of them. Between that lower and the Raptor charging handle (another AXTS innovation) I am changing direction back into AR's from being a AK-only guy. That said, they do have some proprietary parts. Not a bad idea to get a kit of all of them from AXTS. I'll email Abe about exactly that and report back if anybody else is interested.
snakedoctor
09-26-13, 12:30
The AXTS lowers are worth every penny. Got a bunch of them. Between that lower and the Raptor charging handle (another AXTS innovation) I am changing direction back into AR's from being a AK-only guy. That said, they do have some proprietary parts. Not a bad idea to get a kit of all of them from AXTS. I'll email Abe about exactly that and report back if anybody else is interested.
Consider me interested
Consider me interested
Just got a response from Abe -
We will be offering parts as you mentioned but all the parts right now are shipping with lowers. Hopefully within the next couple months.
Regards,
Abe Underwood
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