Stag Model 3

[BattleReady]

Just recently bought my first AR/M4. What's everyone's opinion on the Stag model 3?

[Airhasz]

Are you not suppose to ask that ? before purchase?

[polymorpheous]

For the money you could have done much better.

Read the sticky threads at the top of each sub-forum.

[BattleReady]

I wasn't expecting yo buy an AR, but got what I thought was a good deal. Paid $742 out the door from a local dealer. At that price I kinda figured I was not getting a LWRC or anything close. As a entry level rifle the Stag 3 get great reviews . I'm not going to run hard just a few hundred rounds a month.
What is the cons of the model 3? What if anything should be changed to make the rifle completely mil-spec?

[BattleReady]

Are you not suppose to ask that ? before purchase?

If I was a member, I would have. Seems to be a lot of knowledgeable folks on here. Plus I wasn't even planning on getting an AR. Shot my brothers and fell in love :)

[polymorpheous]

Use the orange search button up top.
You will find your answers there.

[BattleReady]

Use the orange search button up top.
You will find your answers there.

Tried that, this is what pops up.
rch: 1. Invalid User specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administr

[polymorpheous]

https://www.m4carbine.net/gtsearch.php?cx=003496919632624929056%3Adhiwgm0hbaa&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=STAG&siteurl=www.m4carbine.net%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D1377873%23post1377873&ref=&ss=23564j190757336j4

[BattleReady]

Thanks, that's exactly what I needed.

[dangertree]

Guys that sell other brands hate them, but they work great.

[jonconsiglio]

I'm not sure about the post above since most members here are not salesmen, but end users....

Anyway OP, a Stag would not be my first choice, but since you already have it, there are a few things you can do to assure reliability. Accuracy should be on par with others it's reliably that is the big thing here. The link below will tell you what to look for and you can go from there.

Many years ago, I went through a number of less than stellar rifles. Once I learned what to look for, it was possible to keep them running well. The bad part was, not only did I spend as much for the rifle as I would a BCM or Colt (in today's standards. Back then BCM wasn't around and Colt's were actually more expensive) but I then had to dump more money into it to get it running properly.

For the past 6 years or so, I've decided to avoid the extra cost and work and just buy something a little better up front. Sometimes when we don't know better and there's a deal in front of us, we jump on it without researching it properly.

Read the link. Ask questions. Good luck. Next time ask first before buying. The price differences aren't what they used to be, so there's few times where buying a commercial grade rifle is a benefit considering the amount of money we spend on ammo, kit, fixes, etc.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376

[bluecanary]

you get what you pay for.

In my experience, Stags tend to be over-gased.

Their feed ramps are shallow, and their gas key staking is sub par.

Hopefully you got one that was not built on a Monday.

[dangertree]

You get more than you pay for.

Gas port the same size as Colt uses, so same gas. Over-gassed is a myth.

Their ramps are identical to Colt, rather than the non-spec deep cuts seen on some other brands. Their key staking is works great.

If you ever do have a problem, you have a lifetime warranty.

Enjoy your new rifle.

[totenkopf_u64]

Gas port the same size as Colt uses, so same gas. Over-gassed is a myth.

If you ever do have a problem, you have a lifetime warranty.

Enjoy your new rifle.

the over gassed thing may be more of a QC deal than a Spec sheet thing.

The warranty is a plus though. how are they as far as customer service goes? ever dealt with em?

[dangertree]

I wasn't expecting yo buy an AR, but got what I thought was a good deal. Paid $742 out the door from a local dealer. At that price I kinda figured I was not getting a LWRC or anything close. As a entry level rifle the Stag 3 get great reviews . I'm not going to run hard just a few hundred rounds a month.
What is the cons of the model 3? What if anything should be changed to make the rifle completely mil-spec?

Run it as hard as you want. Functionally, mil-spec would entail a 1/7 4150 CMV barrel as on the plus package. If you generally shoot 55 or 62, 1/9 is where you want to be anyway. The Stag Arms 1/9 measures out to about 1/8.25" twist by my tape measure. This may explain why I shoot 77SMK accurately.

[VIP3R 237]

Stag's are decent rifles, could you have done better for the money? Sure, but you could have also done much worse.


You get more than you pay for.

Gas port the same size as Colt uses, so same gas. Over-gassed is a myth.


The Stag i owned a couple years ago used a ar15 carrier and a standard carbine buffer compared to Colt's m16 carrier and H buffer. So the GP may be the same but with the lesser mass weight the stag would act overgassed.

[jonconsiglio]

Commercial grade rifles geared towards the occasional shooter like the Stag are often referred too as over gassed because they leave the factory set up with expectation most of the owners will shoot lower powered target ammo. Regardless of gas port size (Bushmaster claims spec as well but MANY measure out much larger), a bump to at least an H buffer might be a good idea.

My 1/7 rifles, which include BCM, Colt 6720, LMT 10.5" and both KAC SR15's all shoot 55gr m193 for 10 rounds at 100 yards with an Aimpoint and 3x or ACOG TA31 between 2 and 3.5 moa, depending on rifle and variances in ammo.

62gr can be very accurate in 1/7 twist rifles. On the other side, I've fired a lot of 77gr back in the day when I had 1/9 barrels. Worked fine. I don't know why anyone would "want" to be running a 1/9 if they shoot a 1/9 barrel. It'll be fine, but not better and that pretty much applies to 55gr as well. I'd rather loose the ability to shoot 45gr ammo by running a 1/7 than running a 1/9 and run the risk of giving up the ability to run the 70gr TSX.

It's length, not weight that affects stability. The 70gr TSX is longer than most 77gr bullets. 50gr and 70gr TSX is my choice for defensive use and hog/coyote hunting, so that may not apply to everyone. 75gr TAP 5.56 is my other choice for a defensive round, but at those distances, stability is not a major issue.

[krypto]

My Cousin bought a Stag about 3 years ago, thinking it was top of the line. Obviously he has yet to grasp the full learning potential of the WorldWideWeb :) That said, he bought it as a plinker and has approx. 1000 rounds through it without a single hiccup, running .223 only as far as I know.

Certainly there are many here who know the real facts about quality and design, but if I had just bought a Stag model 3 as a plinker I'd shoot it till it died.

[dangertree]

the over gassed thing may be more of a QC deal than a Spec sheet thing.

The warranty is a plus though. how are they as far as customer service goes? ever dealt with em?

I think the over gassed thing is a cultivated myth.

As this is the only place I see it being discussed, and it has been said to me, here, by an employee of another brand, I have to wonder... :secret:

I have never had to deal with them for warranty, but as they manufacture basically the entire rifle, warranty shouldn't be an issue.
I like that its a lifetime warranty backed by a company with almost 40 years of M16 manufacturing.

[Shabazz]

Just recently bought my first AR/M4. What's everyone's opinion on the Stag model 3?

Plinker gun.

[dangertree]

Stag's are decent rifles, could you have done better for the money? Sure, but you could have also done much worse.



The Stag i owned a couple years ago used a ar15 carrier and a standard carbine buffer compared to Colt's m16 carrier and H buffer. So the GP may be the same but with the lesser mass weight the stag would act overgassed.

Fair enough I guess. But having a lighter buffer doesn't make a barrel over gassed. If the gas port is the same size (mine are), then they are the same.

Changing the buffer does entail cost (more tungsten), but, an M16 carrier doesn't cost (or shouldn't cost) more than a AR15 carrier. Other than the sear trip removal, they are the same part. 1" less machining on the M16 version. The weight difference is truly negligible, vs say, the difference in weights between Carbine, H and H2 buffers, whose weight move in unison with the bolt as one reciprocating mass.

Buffers are $20 differences, not $100 differences, I guess.

ETA: I was not aware that high volume civilian shooters shoot more expensive ammunition than lower volume shooters. I wish I could afford to shoot high dollar ammo more often. If I'm putting holes in paper or hitting targets at 5-100m, as fast as possible, on my dime, I'm shooting whatever is cheap and works consistently. Right now I'm fighting the urge to not pick up a 1600 pack of Norinco 556NATO 55gn vs my normal American Eagle/Federal/ and yes, Remington 55 FMJ. I find myself hoarding 'the good stuff' and putting everything ELSE downrange. :LOL:


All the best.

[polymorpheous]

Fair enough I guess. But having a lighter buffer doesn't make a barrel over gassed. If the gas port is the same size (mine are), then they are the same.

Changing the buffer does entail cost (more tungsten), but, an M16 carrier doesn't cost (or shouldn't cost) more than a AR15 carrier. Other than the sear trip sq inch removal, they are the same part. 1" less machining on the M16 version. The weight difference (1 sq inch bar steel?) is truly negligible, vs say, the difference in weights between Carbine, H and H2 buffers, whose weight move in unison with the bolt as one reciprocating mass.

Buffers are $20 differences, not $100 differences, I guess.

All the best.

What is the dollar amount on correct chamber dimensions?

[dangertree]

What is the dollar amount on correct chamber dimensions?

Included.

[jonconsiglio]

Fair enough I guess. But having a lighter buffer doesn't make a barrel over gassed. If the gas port is the same size (mine are), then they are the same.

All the best.

Right, but it does make the rifle over gassed. The problem is, moat people don't even know what this means. Again, the typical Stag buyer, from what I've seen, isn't buying it as a duty rifle or even advanced training, they're usually buying it for plinking now and then. That's fine with me.

I still don't see spending $1,000 on any Stag when you can buy a complete BCM or Colt for the same price, or within $75.

The big thing I always look at is what rifles are being used at quality training classes and how they perform. Without fail, Bushmaster, DPMS, Stag, Olympic, Model 1, etc., though not seen in numbers like those manufacturers producing rifles with the professional in mind, they have a higher percentage of failures.

And for me, that's what it comes down to. I have no doubt I could buy a Stag off the shelf, check a few things, change a thing or two with parts I own and get it to run fine. But why? Why would I not just buy a BCM first for the same price and have the reliability I had to work for with the Stag?

Again, most are not going to see any difference as they just don't shoot that much or their shooting takes place on a comfy bench somewhere while they slowly fire a few rounds down range to see how small they can get their groups. Again, that's cool with me. But, if you are defending life, your own, the public's or my country's, then I would think we'd want the best to start with.

If I remember correctly, they were using 4140 barrels and batch testing as well. These are things that are permanent unless you replace the carrier group and barrel.

Also, what bothers me the most, is they won't just make all their rifles the same. They basically have the "Professional package" and the standard "hobby package". This makes no sense to me.

In my experience, those that say certain things don't matter and one brand is "good enough" wither don't shoot enough or don't have anything to compare it to. I've yet to meet someone that trains hard and regulary that has owned both hobby and pro grade weapons and has stated that the hobby rifle was good enough. The only time I ever hear that is from those that own the hobby rifle they're defending and typically, though not always, are not high round count shooters, but more bench shooters. That's all good, just something I've noticed.

For me, the fact that I may need my weapon at work and home and thai train with them numerous times weekly, there is absolutely no reason in this world that I should skimp on quality in any way, just to save $100.... especially when I shoot up that difference 5 times over on a monthly basis.

Dangertree, I'm speaking in general here, not towards you directly. For all I know, you're very experienced mil and LE. Just wanted to make that clear since there all always exceptions to the rule. I'm also not in any way saying your personal experience is wrong. I'm looking at large numbers here. I know numerous guys that beat the hell out of Bushmasters that are still running strong with a couple small tweaks. But, in the big picture, I know of many more that are not as they fail more often than others. I know an experience with a few can always be far different than an experience with hundreds.

Also, I know Noveske uses CMT lower parts. I don't know if they're the same as Stag or not. I also know Stag may individually test parts now. I think testing argument is a bit much, but it's often mentioned. Just wanted to clear a few things up...

[Grand58742]

I wasn't expecting yo buy an AR, but got what I thought was a good deal. Paid $742 out the door from a local dealer.

For that price it isn't a bad deal.


As a entry level rifle the Stag 3 get great reviews . I'm not going to run hard just a few hundred rounds a month.

For that purpose, it'll work fine.


What is the cons of the model 3? What if anything should be changed to make the rifle completely mil-spec?

Besides everyone on here telling you how much you suck because you bought a rifle that sucks and should have asked on here first and suck because you didn't...there are no cons so to speak if you know up front what the limitations are. It's a 1/9 twist with a standard carbine buffer and AR15 bolt carrier.

The 1/9 won't reliably stabilize the heavy rounds (greater than 68 grain) most of the time. So you are stuck with 68 grain or less.

The chamber may or may not be 5.56. Getting a gunsmith to check the chamber via a gauge will solve this mystery. Until said time, you are limited to .223 ammo.

Carbine buffer will allow more felt recoil. AR15 bolt carrier isn't as heavy as the M16 bolt carrier and will allow for, again, more perceived felt recoil. However, being said it is an AR and the recoil is nothing to worry about so this is really a moot point. Change to an H buffer and call it a day.

There's your limitations. If the damn thing breaks in the first couple hundred rounds, send it back to Stag to fix.

What should you do to bring it to mil-spec? Frankly, nothing at first. Learn to shoot it, use it, find things you like/dislike and over time replace parts. Eventually you will find/learn what should be replace and or could be replaced. But the first thing you should do it shoot the darn thing and stop worrying about what others on here tell you about how much the rifle sucks and you got robbed. $750ish is not a bad price to pay for a lower level AR especially when Bushmaster, DPMS and others are selling at $1000 or greater and dealers can't keep them on the shelf. You did perfectly fine. Chances are you'll never shoot the barrel out of it or have a heavy enough firing schedule to break it coming straight out of the box. Otherwise, this post is what you need to look for:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=75568&postcount=1

Do yourself a favor and don't get wrapped up in what other's think on here or tell you "you should have bought a BCM/Colt!" which happens to be the standard response when these threads come up. Before you end up spending $500+ more getting a mil-spec receiver extension and stock, Bravo Company BCG, and 4150 HP/MP barrel in 1/7 twist (along with the assorted costs of a gunsmith to replace said extension and barrel), go out, grab a bunch of ammo and shoot the thing. Figure out what works, what doesn't and read up on this site about what parts you can replace over the long run.

And in the end, you learn what can be replaced and even get a second rifle of a higher "tier" so to speak like said Colt or BCM. ARs are typically like rabbits, when you get one, somehow more end up appearing in your safe. And after the first "entry level" rifle you figure out what to look for in your second, third, etc.

At $742, you did fine.

But to reiterate one last time, go out and shoot the thing and stop worrying about what will bring it into "mil spec" before even putting one round downrange. You'll figure it out along the way.

[LostinKY]

"Do yourself a favor and don't get wrapped up in what other's think on here or tell you..."

At $742, you did fine.


You post does contain a lot of reasonable opinions, but

The OP asked for opinions, so obviously "Do yourself a favor and don't get wrapped up in what other's think on here..." is an opinion
...but not a very respectful or reasonable one.

Again, to the OP, although I don't think $742 is good deal, it is ultimately up to you to decide.

[jonconsiglio]

I don't remember telling anyone they sucked. I didn't know it was purchased for $750.

[BattleReady]

I'm kinda glad I didn't pay $1,100 for a Colt or BCM. The money ($350) I saved can put in my Stag, IMO I'll have a lot nicer rifle then either of them are right of the shelf


https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=75568&postcount=1

Thanks a lot, that link covered everything I was looking for.

[krypto]

I'm kinda glad I didn't pay $1,100 for a Colt or BCM. The money ($350) I saved can put in my Stag, IMO I'll have a lot nicer rifle then either of them are right of the shelf

Thanks a lot, that link covered everything I was looking for.


NO NO NO!!!! Put the $350 in ammo and go shooting :D

[dangertree]

I'm kinda glad I didn't pay $1,100 for a Colt or BCM. The money ($350) I saved can put in my Stag, IMO I'll have a lot nicer rifle then either of them are right of the shelf

Thanks a lot, that link covered everything I was looking for.

Buy ammo and shoot.

Throw a Geissele SSA-E in it when you have the dough. ;)

[VIP3R 237]

NO NO NO!!!! Put the $350 in ammo and go shooting :D

Exactly. Dont blow the saved money on tacticool shit.

[Hydguy]

I'm kinda glad I didn't pay $1,100 for a Colt or BCM. The money ($350) I saved can put in my Stag, IMO I'll have a lot nicer rifle then either of them are right of the shelf

Thanks a lot, that link covered everything I was looking for.

No, the $350 you saved cannot be spent making your rifle 'a lot nicer'. It can be spent on the way, but you will still have to spend more.

Unless you have all the tools to do a barrel swap you come out far behind in cost to make something close to equivalent.
A good torque wench alone is at a minimum half the cost of what you saved, then the barrel, buffer, barrel wrench, and so on and so forth.
Or you can pay someone else to do all that, and still end up spending more than the $350.

That said, Stag is owned by CMT, who makes forgings for Colt, and just about everyone else, as there are only a few companies that make them. So the lower and upper SHOULD be perfectly mil-spec, but I have no idea if they use a commercial or mil-spec buffer tube, stock and so on. We know the barrel isn't mil-spec, but what else isn't? All that stuff adds up..

And as long as you have the Stag Arms lower, you will always have stupid roll mark, and we all know that a cool roll mark is what really matters...

[polymorpheous]

No, the $350 you saved cannot be spent making your rifle 'a lot nicer'. It can be spent on the way, but you will still have to spend more.

Unless you have all the tools to do a barrel swap you come out far behind in cost to make something close to equivalent.
A good torque wench alone is at a minimum half the cost of what you saved, then the barrel, buffer, barrel wrench, and so on and so forth.
Or you can pay someone else to do all that, and still end up spending more than the $350.

That said, Stag is owned by CMT, who makes forgings for Colt, and just about everyone else, as there are only a few companies that make them. So the lower and upper SHOULD be perfectly mil-spec, but I have no idea if they use a commercial or mil-spec buffer tube, stock and so on. We know the barrel isn't mil-spec, but what else isn't? All that stuff adds up..

And as long as you have the Stag Arms lower, you will always have stupid roll mark, and we all know that a cool roll mark is what really matters...


Please list your source that CMT makes raw forgings for Colt, or at all for that matter.

[jonconsiglio]

Please list your source that CMT makes raw forgings for Colt, or at all for that matter.

Thats the first I've heard anyone state that. I knew the Noveske/CMT thing, but I've never heard the Colt stuff.

[polymorpheous]

As far as I know, CMT does not manufacture raw forgings.

I know Colt machines their own uppers and lowers from forgings.
I have a Colt upper with a Cerro forge mark.

[dangertree]

Right, but it does make the rifle over gassed. The problem is, moat people don't even know what this means. Again, the typical Stag buyer, from what I've seen, isn't buying it as a duty rifle or even advanced training, they're usually buying it for plinking now and then. That's fine with me.

If the buffer is too light for a particular batch of ammunition, and the gas port is .625", then technically the ammo has made the rifle overgassed, (if I'm following along correctly, in my books a rifle that is cycling properly and ejecting at 2-5 oclock is operating correctly?)
The question is, is the gas port .625 or not? I have not seen a Stag 14.5" or 16" that was not.

Our experience differs on who we see as the typical Stag user. In Canada (where I am), Stag Arms have been selling their LE/GOV line since 2005, similar to what is now the Plus Package in the USA, 4150, 1/7, and competes vs Colt Canada for LE contracts, and sells guns. I do suspect they did not have dance around the M4/AR15 line for export rifles. I know that they are listed as 'in use by CF/NATO forces' and are thus eligible to compete for almost any LE/GOV contract up here. Colt Canada, Colt USA, HK and FN pretty much round out that list.

I shoot. I have 23 years of living with the "C7 FOW", how much that matter, I really don't know. Less than many, more than some? I know what makes an AR go and stop. I know good parts, and I know shit parts. I read reports. Stag Arms (CMT), in my experience, makes good parts that go together well and last as long as anything.

I have had to assemble guns privately using some other brands, and have had to put parts on the lathe to fit them. This does not happen with Colt or Stag parts.

I do keep in touch with shooters across the country in CIV, MIL and LE circles. I can say that lots of shooting instructors use Stag Arms carbines with very high round counts. Lots of their students are shooting Stag Arms and specifically NOT having failures. Lots of Stag Arms shooters winning Service Rifle matches with 20" Govt Profile Stag Arms (some on C7 lowers), again, high round counts. Police Depts that interchange supressed 10" C8CQB and Stag Arms Mk18 10.3" on Entry teams, etc. LE Patrol Rifles. Lefties in CF useage. Lots of serious civilian shooters no doubt, and CF members buying personal firearms for personal use, but probably as much LE/Gov use as not.

That is the Stag Arms I know. I guess I see a disconnect from what I see and hear from shooters of these firearms and what I see and read on this site.

To failures, I know of one batch of disconnects (10) recalled by the manufacturer. Stag Arms have been, and are seen as extremely reliable.

To why Stag Arms, personally. I like who they are. I like how they handle themselves. Good guns. Consistently great parts. Their own parts = accountability. No bullshit. Long M16 manufacturing history. The American Dream. They don't bang their own drum nearly as much as they could.

I wonder if their position as a branded manufacturer and an OEM parts manufacturer puts them in a unique position? Not sure. I do know that many brands promoted here also use their parts. I don't get the argument/ suggested explanation that maybe they would sell themselves bad parts, thus being cheaper, (vs being cheaper because they themselves are the massive OEM manufacturer perhaps?) Never seen any evidence of this, and why would they anyway?

My 9c at this point. :o

All the best.

[dangertree]

As far as I know, CMT does not manufacture raw forgings.

I know Colt machines their own uppers and lowers from forgings.
I have a Colt upper with a Cerro forge mark.

No one that cuts AR15 parts makes their own forgings in house. They are not aluminum forges. Colt buys their 7075-T6 forged receivers from forge houses, like Cerro, and others. They have the forgings manufactured with their own C mark. It is otherwise not a different part from any other forging Cerro (or others) sell to anyone. It is the cutting of that forging that counts.

[Iraqgunz]

Enough of the Stag Wars saga. Their reputation is well known and if you feel well served by your Stag then rock on.