Help me select my first SBR

[flynnstone]

Ive been looking into purchasing my first SBR, that i can eventually add a can to.

It seems that Daniel Defense and Noveske are two manufacturers mentioned most often, for their overall reputation for quality.

Between these two companies, which would you guys go with for a 10.5" AR? I like both the Noveske CQB with the NSR rail, and the DD Mk18.

Ill probably buy the complete upper first, then find a lower.


Thanks

[rjacobs]

This will probably get moved over to the NFA section and you will be told to do a search.

Buying a short upper before you have a registered lower in your hands is generally a bad idea. Can be construed as constructive intent if you have other non-registered or non-pistol lowers in your possession. That can be argued to death though.

So you have 2 options:

Get a lower and Form 1 it into an SBR then when you have your stamp back order the upper. Generally NFA stuff(short uppers in particular) arent in as high of demand as 16" upper so they are generally pretty easy to get ahold of when the time comes. At least that has been my experience.

Get a complete SBR(Noveske, DD, LMT, etc...), have it transferred to your local SOT via Form 3 from the manufacturer(or other dealer) and then submit the Form 4 for it.


There are plus's and minus's to both options. Option 1 generally can be cheaper or I guess I might say you can spread those costs out over a greater period of time. The minus is that you have to engrave the lower with your info in it making that lower always yours, which to me, isnt a big deal. Factory SBR's generally cost more because you have to pay the excise tax. However resale on factory guns is generally much higher due to From 1 guns resale(except for the upper) being basically non existent.

Search around the NFA section. Search around silencertalk.com. Those are probably the two areas I got the most information from.

[flynnstone]

This will probably get moved over to the NFA section and you will be told to do a search.

Buying a short upper before you have a registered lower in your hands is generally a bad idea. Can be construed as constructive intent if you have other non-registered or non-pistol lowers in your possession. That can be argued to death though.

So you have 2 options:

Get a lower and Form 1 it into an SBR then when you have your stamp back order the upper. Generally NFA stuff(short uppers in particular) arent in as high of demand as 16" upper so they are generally pretty easy to get ahold of when the time comes. At least that has been my experience.

Get a complete SBR(Noveske, DD, LMT, etc...), have it transferred to your local SOT via Form 3 from the manufacturer(or other dealer) and then submit the Form 4 for it.


There are plus's and minus's to both options. Option 1 generally can be cheaper or I guess I might say you can spread those costs out over a greater period of time. The minus is that you have to engrave the lower with your info in it making that lower always yours, which to me, isnt a big deal. Factory SBR's generally cost more because you have to pay the excise tax. However resale on factory guns is generally much higher due to From 1 guns resale(except for the upper) being basically non existent.

Search around the NFA section. Search around silencertalk.com. Those are probably the two areas I got the most information from.

Thanks for the advice.

[calviroman]

I would recommend a factory Colt 6933. You can buy them for about $1150 + transfer fee & tax stamp. Excellent startig point and base rifle. It is however a 11.5" pencil barrel, so if your stuck on 10.5 its not a good option.

[RGoose]

You can always make your existing lower and SBR, follow the guidance under the NFA subforum. You really can't go wrong with a BCM 11.5" or 12.5" upper. As others will tell you a factory Daniel Defense is a good bet. If you want to spend coin, go with Noveske.

[flynnstone]

So i found a DD Mk18 upper, with 10.3" barrel and low pro gas block. What cans would work best with this setup, and is the low pro gas block ok for a suppressed rifle?

Its been difficult to find a complete DD sbr upper lately, and i just want to make sure that im choosing the right platform to meet my future goals to suppress. I dont want to invest $1100 in a complete upper then have to work backwards. :laugh:

[Stangman]

So i found a DD Mk18 upper, with 10.3" barrel and low pro gas block. What cans would work best with this setup, and is the low pro gas block ok for a suppressed rifle?

Its been difficult to find a complete DD sbr upper lately, and i just want to make sure that im choosing the right platform to meet my future goals to suppress. I dont want to invest $1100 in a complete upper then have to work backwards. :laugh:


Don't get a thread on can with the MK18, there is about an 1/8th inch gap between the end of the threading of the barrel & the end of the rail. So, if you were to get a thread on can, you'll have to use a shim of some sort, ie peel washer etc. If you do get the MK18, you'll want to use a quick attach muzzle device & can.

[flynnstone]

Is there any benefit to the DD and their low pro gas block vs the Noveske with the adjustable block when running a can?

[wilco423]

Is there any benefit to the DD and their low pro gas block vs the Noveske with the adjustable block when running a can?

Not to be rude, but you clearly need to do some research on this subject before asking more questions. There is a huge amount of info here and on other internet sources on the switchblock and other things related to SBRs and cans. You are about to make a large investment - take some time to research. Your lower will take 5-6 mo to register anyway, so you have lots of time :)

[flynnstone]

Not to be rude, but you clearly need to do some research on this subject before asking more questions. There is a huge amount of info here and on other internet sources on the switchblock and other things related to SBRs and cans. You are about to make a large investment - take some time to research. Your lower will take 5-6 mo to register anyway, so you have lots of time :)

Thanks. I've been doing quite a bit of research here, and on several other black rifle forums. Unfortunately, i've been unable to find a clear answer as to whether the cost of the adjustable block is worth it when compared to the low pro block. If both will adequately function when suppressed, but the adjustable is just a "nice to have", then i'm pretty sure i know what my next steps will be.

If people didn't ask questions and start new posts, would there really be a need for this forum? :smile:

[Stangman]

The only thing that will determine "if the cost is worth it" is what you're going to use the rifle for and if you're going to use it suppressed & non-suppressed. Only you can make that distinction.

If you're going to be shooting it 50/50 with & without a can, then yeah, it would probably be worth it. If you're shooting a dedicated suppressor gun, you can just throw in a heavier buffer and a gas buster charging handle (bought or made) in there & have at it. So, probably not worth the cost if that's the case.

[nickhaaa]

Great upper and build quality. Ran flawlessly. Just want to buy a new car.

The switchblock is great. It works and you can try each setting and notice gas output differences, less gas, etc. That being said, running a can is still dirty regardless of what kind of glas block you have, adjustable or not. My friend always ran his MK18 with a standard low profile gasblock and had no issues running suppressed.

My advice, register your current lower on a form 1 now and just keep an eye out for an upper you're interested in during your wait. If you decide on either 10.5" or 11.5" you'll be fine. It probably won't be your last. Good luck.

[Iraqgunz]

Constructive intent is by an large internet mythology and I don't believe that anyone who was truly not breaking the law has ever been charged with it.


This will probably get moved over to the NFA section and you will be told to do a search.

Buying a short upper before you have a registered lower in your hands is generally a bad idea. Can be construed as constructive intent if you have other non-registered or non-pistol lowers in your possession. That can be argued to death though.

So you have 2 options:

Get a lower and Form 1 it into an SBR then when you have your stamp back order the upper. Generally NFA stuff(short uppers in particular) arent in as high of demand as 16" upper so they are generally pretty easy to get ahold of when the time comes. At least that has been my experience.

Get a complete SBR(Noveske, DD, LMT, etc...), have it transferred to your local SOT via Form 3 from the manufacturer(or other dealer) and then submit the Form 4 for it.


There are plus's and minus's to both options. Option 1 generally can be cheaper or I guess I might say you can spread those costs out over a greater period of time. The minus is that you have to engrave the lower with your info in it making that lower always yours, which to me, isnt a big deal. Factory SBR's generally cost more because you have to pay the excise tax. However resale on factory guns is generally much higher due to From 1 guns resale(except for the upper) being basically non existent.

Search around the NFA section. Search around silencertalk.com. Those are probably the two areas I got the most information from.

[rjacobs]

Constructive intent is by an large internet mythology and I don't believe that anyone who was truly not breaking the law has ever been charged with it.

I agree with you and was actually thinking about you when I posted that.

Like I said it could be argued to death(and has been).

[JoshNC]

Henderson Defense has Colt 6933s for $1049. That is what I would buy were I in the market for an AR SBR.

[WS6]

Constructive intent is by an large internet mythology and I don't believe that anyone who was truly not breaking the law has ever been charged with it.

Agreed. What's to stop you from putting an SBR length upper on one of your non-registered lowers? You would have to have ALL of your lowers registered if you even had one SBR length upper, if this were true.

[Magic_Salad0892]

For me it'd be Colt 6943, KAC Block III SBR, or Centurion 11.5'', on a KAC lower.

[Koshinn]

Constructive intent is by an large internet mythology and I don't believe that anyone who was truly not breaking the law has ever been charged with it.

It's actually "constructive possession" which is a solid legal principle. But unless you're bring raided for another reason, the atf will never check on you. You'd probably be able to get away with an unregistered SBR for your entire life too, even though you'd be committing a federal felony the entire time. But don't do that, you don't want to be caught at a range and lose your fire arm rights for the rest of your life and go to jail. There's a difference between "illegal" and "likely to be caught." Both constructive and actual possession of an unregistered sbr are illegal, but one is harder to catch.

But if you have a sbr upper, a rifle lower, and no registered sbr lower, you are in constructive possession of an NFA firearm, regardless if they are attached and if they're in separate locations but still under your control (car trunk and in the house for example).

[6933]

Colt 6933. Adding a rail, stock, etc. makes it a fun project.

[markm]

But if you have a sbr upper, a rifle lower, and no registered sbr lower, you are in constructive possession of an NFA firearm, regardless if they are attached and if they're in separate locations but still under your control (car trunk and in the house for example).

Christ. I had an SBR upper for a long time before I got around to registering a lower and building a shorty.

ATF could make any one of our lives hell if they wanted to... even if you don't have any NFA components. They can parade your guns out on a folding table and just say they exectued a warrant. The media will assume you're in the wrong and that you have an arsenal of illegal stuff.

The constructive whatever B.S. isn't something I give a second thought to. If they want to toast your weiner, they will.

[flynnstone]

But if you have a sbr upper, a rifle lower, and no registered sbr lower, you are in constructive possession of an NFA firearm, regardless if they are attached and if they're in separate locations but still under your control (car trunk and in the house for example).

That's an interesting outlook but i disagree. The ruling against the BATF in United States v. Thompson-Center Arms Company sets somewhat of a precedence.

If someone were to own a fully assembled lower receiver with a rifle stock, and a complete SBR upper, without a stamp, it seems that you could be considered to be in constructive possession of an NFA firearm.

Simply owning a stripped lower receiver, and a complete SBR upper does not appear to violate any existing laws, even if you're the owner of other complete AR15's. They would be hard pressed to prove constructive intent, unless you've really done something else wrong, in which case, good luck to you!

[ImmortalArms]

To clear up any confusion on "constructive possession" and the belief that there is no such thing. There is established case law.

In United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992), the United States Supreme Court examined whether a short-barreled rifle was “made” under the NFA when a carbine-conversion kit consisting of a single-shot “Contender” pistol was designed so that its handle and barrel could be removed from its receiver, and was packaged with a 21-inch barrel, a rifle stock, and a wooden fore-end. The Court held that, where aggregated parts could convert a pistol into either a regulated short-barreled rifle, or an unregulated rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, the NFA was ambiguous and applied the “rule of lenity” (i.e., ambiguities in criminal statutes should be resolved in favor of the defendant) so that the pistol and carbine kit, when packaged together, were not considered a “short-barreled rifle” for purposes of the NFA.

However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (b) convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13.

ATF SBR Ruling 2011-4 (http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf)

[Iraqgunz]

Maybe you should read more and post less. Most all of us are well aware of that one single case. As it has been discussed numerous times before.


To clear up any confusion on "constructive possession" and the belief that there is no such thing. There is established case law.

In United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992), the United States Supreme Court examined whether a short-barreled rifle was “made” under the NFA when a carbine-conversion kit consisting of a single-shot “Contender” pistol was designed so that its handle and barrel could be removed from its receiver, and was packaged with a 21-inch barrel, a rifle stock, and a wooden fore-end. The Court held that, where aggregated parts could convert a pistol into either a regulated short-barreled rifle, or an unregulated rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, the NFA was ambiguous and applied the “rule of lenity” (i.e., ambiguities in criminal statutes should be resolved in favor of the defendant) so that the pistol and carbine kit, when packaged together, were not considered a “short-barreled rifle” for purposes of the NFA.

However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (b) convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13.

ATF SBR Ruling 2011-4 (http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf)

[Iraqgunz]

The wonderful thing about living in Amerika is we can all disagree.

What if I had a lower fully assembled, with no buttstocK? I could easily claim that I have an AR pistol.

But, then again I won't be doing anything that will have the BATFE knocking on my door either.


It's actually "constructive possession" which is a solid legal principle. But unless you're bring raided for another reason, the atf will never check on you. You'd probably be able to get away with an unregistered SBR for your entire life too, even though you'd be committing a federal felony the entire time. But don't do that, you don't want to be caught at a range and lose your fire arm rights for the rest of your life and go to jail. There's a difference between "illegal" and "likely to be caught." Both constructive and actual possession of an unregistered sbr are illegal, but one is harder to catch.

But if you have a sbr upper, a rifle lower, and no registered sbr lower, you are in constructive possession of an NFA firearm, regardless if they are attached and if they're in separate locations but still under your control (car trunk and in the house for example).

[markm]

But, then again I won't be doing anything that will have the BATFE knocking on my door either.

You're never home anyway! :D

[mig1nc]

What if you have a complete rifle and an sbr upper but no spare lower? That is to say you have two uppers and one lower where the full length rifle upper is attached to the rifle lower?

Sent from my T7575 using Board Express

[Iraqgunz]

13414

I'M NOT ALWAYS AT HOME, BUT WHEN I AM I DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE BATFE.



You're never home anyway! :D

[everyusernametaken]

Haha, that's hilarious!