PDA

View Full Version : Appleseed Shoot Question



Shrike9
01-30-08, 13:39
Our oldest daughter is in JROTC and I've been playing with the idea of taking her to a appleseed shoot to ensure she knows the AR platform and is comfortable with it (she wants to go in the Army as a officer) but I am not convinced it's as good as I've read on the web site http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ and was wondering if anybody has ever been to one?

Nice thing is the price is cheap and easy to afford

TY44934
01-30-08, 16:58
Hi Shrike9 - I remember reading a fairly comprehensive review on the "other" site about the Appleseed shoot. I think the guy's heart is in the right place. That being said, it seems to boil down to:

-3 position shooting with irons.

And that is OK I guess. It seems to follow the "National Match/Camp Perry/Service Rifle doctrine.

While that competition is fun, current "service rifle" rules don't seem to allow M4s or optics - which strikes me as odd. And postition shooting - while a fun skill to learn, doesn't seem to fit with everything our military folks are actually doing overseas these days.

I guess that explains why I chose not to investigate appleseed any further. I'll let the vets explain whether they think it would help your daughter as she goes through basic.

Regards,

TY44934

Ed L.
01-30-08, 23:46
It's high power shooting oriented.

Appleseed shoots do allow the use of optics.

Having said that, the orientation is high power shooting which is really geared toward WW1 style combat. You have a tight sling on your non-dominant arm to the point wher eyou can only do mag changes with your master arm. This is completely opposite of what is taught in modern carbine classes.

Grin Reaper
02-04-08, 22:11
Shrike, first let me thank you for getting your young person (and a daughter, no less) involved in learning to shoot safely and effectively. Not every parent, or even every parent sho is a shooter, does that.
And you're right, the price is hard to beat.

So what do you get for your money?
Here's how I've described it on some other forums:
There are a lot of tactical carbine courses out there right now, and that's great. People like to enroll in them and they teach some valuable skills, skills that are important if you find yourself shooting at smelly bearded men at distances of 'across the room' out to 50 or 100 yards.
Then there are tactical rifle/sniping courses, but these emphasize using a scoped rifle with a bipod to shoot things really far away, 400 yards and usually farther.

The problem is, there's a lot of distance between 100 and 400 yards, and not every Real World situation will allow you to use your bipod. Shooting at these distances is the sort of thing attendees at Appleseeds cover. In addition to shooting offhand, we cover shooting from the seated/kneeling positions and prone (seems redundant to us, I know, but you'll find very few people outside of this forum who routinely shoot without the support of a bench and/or bipod).

Both types of the aforementioned tactical courses are very imformative and provide A LOT of useful skills. But not all of them are really well-suited for a beginning shooter, whereas Appleseed is. Fortunately, with the high-power-based shooting that's emphasized at the Appleseeds, Pat Rogers and the other fine instructors on this board don't have to be worried that Appleseed is going to give them any competition ;) .

In addition to marksmanship, Appleseed attendees get a healthy dose of Revolutionary War history, plus we try to get them involved in keeping their 2nd Amendment rights safe -- contacting their elected reps and such.

Shooters at Appleseed Shoots may use iron sights or their optic of choice; the 'no scopes' idea is a VERY common misconception.

I instruct at Appleseed Shoots, so if I can help answer any other questions, please let me know.

Link to some Kind Words on the Internet (also see the Feb. '08 issue of SWAT): http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=112.0

Schedule at http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=1043.0

Ed L.
02-05-08, 01:53
There are a lot of tactical carbine courses out there right now, and that's great. People like to enroll in them and they teach some valuable skills, skills that are important if you find yourself shooting at smelly bearded men at distances of 'across the room' out to 50 or 100 yards.

Or in dealing with a home invaders in your own home.

Grin Reaper
02-05-08, 12:39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grin Reaper
There are a lot of tactical carbine courses out there right now, and that's great. People like to enroll in them and they teach some valuable skills, skills that are important if you find yourself shooting at smelly bearded men at distances of 'across the room' out to 50 or 100 yards.

Or in dealing with a home invaders in your own home.
Yes, that also. I'll leave teaching stuff like that to people who are good at it, which I'm not.

Now, if you're interested in hitting human-sized targets out to 400-500 yards without needing a scope, bipod, or a specialized rifle/ammo, then that's the sort of shooting you'll learn at Appleseed. Like I said earlier, we're not trying to compete with the tactical course guys, we're just offering another tool for your skills toolbox.

Harv
02-05-08, 16:31
So What qualifies a person to be an Instructor??

I realize they are volunteers. But Where do THEY get there training.
How do I know there not teaching some antiquated unrealistic techniques and methods . Who taught them? Is there any prerequisites?

I know lots of Nice guys who would Happily volunteer there time to teach others to shoot.. But there clueless and don't have the skill set to do that.

Grin Reaper
02-05-08, 17:11
Candidates attend a week-long shooting event called a Rifleman's Boot Camp (I know, the name's a bit over the top; I didn't name it). During this, they work on refining their own shooting as well as learning how to teach it to others. Boot Camps are run by 2 or more CMP master instructors, there may be more depending on how many attendees there are.
At the weekend following it, there's a 2-day Appleseed Shoot where the new instructors (under the supervision of 4-6 more senior instructors) manage the instruction of Appleseed attendees.
After that, the new instructors are supervised at at least 3 more shoots before they instruct on their own.

I know lots of Nice guys who would Happily volunteer there time to teach others to shoot.. But there clueless and don't have the skill set to do that. I know quite a lot of gentlemen like that also; they're not a part of this program.

How do I know there not teaching some antiquated unrealistic techniques and methods I'm not quite sure how one would respond to that.
Just remember what I have been saying about the program: this is not a tactical course. We won't be covering SBS Prone or Room-Clearing (both fine skills, just too much for a 2-day beginner's course). This is Basic Rifle Marksmanship. This is Rifle 101. This is a program devoted to getting regular Joes proficient with their rifles, without needing expensive scopes & such (those are still fine, they're just not a requirement). This is How to Shoot Man-Sized Targets (4moa), and how to do it out to 400-500 yards.

And I seem to have run on a bit. Thanks for indulging me.

Shrike9
02-05-08, 21:09
Been doing some research on the appleseed shoots and like Ed L was saying it appears as if they are teaching the old WWI and WWII style of marksmanship.

I'm assuming its along the lines of a camp perry shoot, only with a bunch of novice shooters learning the fundamentals and basics of rifle marksmanship.

Seems they want at least 100 shooters on the line, that's a shit pot of shooters to watch over and instruct, but depending on how many relays ya can do it while having lots of down time.

Have not been able to find a course of fire or a syllabus yet and I'd like to look one over before committing to a class.

Also found a thread where some people doing the instructing at appleseed shoots do not like optics like the EoTech (not a direct quote) or VFG's but these people seem to be in the minority.

Looks like it would be a good basic course teaching the fundamentals of marksmanship but without attending a shoot I can only assume.

I've got lots of time to research the subject and learn more :D :D

Shrike9
02-05-08, 21:26
I can imagine this is what an Appleseed shoot is like :D :D

http://www.archive.org/details/Rifle_Marksmanship_with_M1_Rifle_Part_1

Grin Reaper
02-05-08, 21:37
Seems they want at least 100 shooters on the line, that's a shit pot of shooters to watch over and instruct, but depending on how many relays ya can do it while having lots of down time.
The average is around 30-something shooters at most shoots, but there have been 2 that actually broke the 100-mark. Fortunately, we knew those would be big ones ahead of time & were able to arrange large enough ranges that there were no relays needed. In spite of numbers like this, there have still been around 2000 attendees since the program started 2 years ago.

Shrike, I may have an old course of fire on my harddrive at home; if it's still there, I can email it your way.


Looks like it would be a good basic course teaching the fundamentals of marksmanship That's what it's intended for.

Ed L.
02-06-08, 00:38
How do I know there not teaching some antiquated unrealistic techniques and methods.

They teach high power oriented shooting, which by this board's definition would be considered antiquated, since it is really geared toward WW1 type shooting conditions. The sling is tight on your support arm to the point where it cannot be used to load magazines into your gun, so they use their firing arm to do so, etc. The shooting stances are the High Power ones where you are almost standing sideways to the target, not the modern carbine stance as I was taught at a number of classes.

To their credit, they are not claiming to teach things that are suitable for Fallujah, or modern combat. Their whole premise is using High Power type shooting as a vehicle to rekindle America's interest in riflery and as a byproduct hopefully get them more interested in protecting their gun rights.

The bottom line is that they work very hard at doing something they believe strongly in and are understandbly proud of what their efforts yield.

I am not a part of their organization, but I went to one of their functions in 2006. They had about 3 coaches for each 20 shooters. I believe about 75 shooters showed up. I had a good time, especially since the 5.56mm ammo that I used for the shoot cost me about $100 for 500 rounds back when I bought it. No one bothered me about my using an Aimpoint.

Barry in IN
02-07-08, 10:39
I recently signed up for one in April.

I shot NRA Highpower for several years, then shifted gears and started taking defense/tactical oriented training to develop new skill sets and habits.

Now, I find my rifle skills have slipped considerably at any deliberate, or distance, shooting. Maybe a couple of days of this class will serve as a refresher.

I'd like to keep both types of skills up if I can. Both are good to have. As the saying goes: Specialization is for insects.
The $70 for the class is relatively cheap if it will help on the more sedate/distance/fine accuracy end of my rifle shooting.

And if it really does get people out shooting, and actually working on improving SOMETHING, then that is a worthy endeavor in itself. Maybe it encourages people to go on with other training, be it tactical, long-range, or Highpower-esqe. If so, that's good too.

I'll probably post a report after the class.

Hootiewho
02-07-08, 21:56
I think it would be a good way to get a child into shooting. I signed up for an upcoming class and will be taking my future brother in law who is 11. I am mainly going to take him.

Failure2Stop
02-08-08, 08:51
People tend to bash events like this. I don't really know why, but it is certainly misplaced and misunderstood. Inter-personal bullet exchanges do not occur at only 100 meters and under.

The skill-set ingrained by long-distance marksmanship is invaluable. The skills required for precision/long-range proficiency are the fundamentals of marksmanship. Lack of these skills preclude effectiveness with a rifle. As the distance to target gets shorter we simply compress the fundamentals to speed up shot delivery.

I do have issue with high-power standing and sitting positions, but they are still good skills to have. It is not a combat simulation shoot, or a realistic evaluation of combative marksmanship, but it is an excellent training tool, if taken in the correct context.

Submariner
02-09-08, 01:17
The shooting stances are the High Power ones where you are almost standing sideways to the target, not the modern carbine stance as I was taught at a number of classes.

To their credit, they are not claiming to teach things that are suitable for Fallujah, or modern combat. Their whole premise is using High Power type shooting as a vehicle to rekindle America's interest in riflery and as a byproduct hopefully get them more interested in protecting their gun rights.

Great and noble goals. Maybe kindle some interest in learning things suitable for modern combat as well. Like mindset and manipulation.

Q. What do you call someone who stands up to shoot off hand in combat?

A. A casualty.

Pat Rogers

Can I still say his name here?

lowprone
02-11-08, 00:52
Mastering the fundamentals prevents the I can't miss fast enough to catch up.
Remember, if you don't shoot well, shoot often.

Alpha Sierra
02-11-08, 05:44
How do I know there not teaching some antiquated unrealistic techniques and methods
What is antiquated and unrealistic depends on the context in which the techniques are used.

Within the context of what the Appleseed program is trying to accomplish, what they teach is neither antiquated nor unrealistic.

Not all training involves stacking into a room or doing Monicas.

Failure2Stop
02-11-08, 07:30
One of the concepts that work from goes as such-

"Learn to shoot your pistol as fast as you can.
Learn to reload your shotgun as fast as you can.
Learn to shoot your rifle as accurately as you can."
-Jason Jones

Can we shoot shotguns and rifles fast? Can we reload pistols and rifles fast? Can we shoot pistols and shotguns accurately? Sure, but to maximize the ability of each platform, following these concepts will allow you to perform excellently.

There are pleantly of venues that train/force fast shooting and reloading, but few that really work on the accuracy that a rifle/rifleman should be caipable of.

Barbara
02-20-08, 17:19
I shot my first Garand match this past weekend and have been looking at these..not the same as shooting a carbine..different rifle, different purpose, different techniques..but I had a great time and have plenty of room for improvement. I don't think anyone is arguing that shooting an M1 is practical in combat these days, but there's still value in doing it.

I'd love to try out their bootcamp weeklong classes but can't fit it in the schedule this year. In the meantime, I'm looking at one of the weekend Indiana or Ohio classes.

I'll be shooting an M1 with iron sights, but probably bring an AR with optic as a backup. Looks like you can shoot whatever you want, including .22, but that its geared towards vintage rifles.

Steve
02-21-08, 08:27
Good for you barb,

not everybody is a HSLD going to the top of the mountiansomethingstan

get as much as you can when you can there is no reason not to on learning basics. and applying to many other things. breathing and trigger control and sights still are a good thing

Barry in IN
02-21-08, 08:33
I'm bringing an M1 also, almost certainly one of my 7.62 ones. I figured I'd make it a throwback weekend, and I would even wear one of my dad's WWII uniforms if mom hadn't thrown them out 20 years ago (I still want to cry over that).

I didn't really see the sense of using a .22 (for part of it or all of it), but now I am starting to. If it's about basics, then a .22 will do the job. And do it cheaper.
The shoot I'm going to (Freedom, IN) will be held mostly, if not entirely, at 25 meters according to someone I talked to who is instructing it.

sapper36
02-21-08, 22:48
I think the Appleseed idea is great. If you are a parent that does not know alot about shooting or know how to teach a child how to shoot its perfect. Both of my children (son 9 and daughter 6) are starting to learn how to shoot, and they are learning marksmanship first. Which is with a rifle shooting from the sitting, prone, kneeling and off hand postitions. Once they have those basics down, then they can start to learn how to compress them and apply them to more fluid situations. But if you dont have the basics everything else is wasting time IMHO. I am lucky that I grew up shooting and been teaching Marines how to shoot for the last 12-13 years so they have a few years before they exceed what I can teach them and I have to send them off to Vickers class:D

Barry in IN
04-21-08, 10:35
I said I would report back after my Appleseed, so I will try.

The one I went to was held this past weekend. They held several others (13?) across the country in observation of the events of 4-19-1775 when the first shots in the American revolution were fired.

I'm having a hard time coming up with a way to express what I thought. I have a lot of mixed feelings. I have a lot of "On the one hand this, but on the other hand that" and I'm not sure where it leaves them in my mind.
Even if I tried to make it simple and give it a letter grade or score it on a 1 to 10 scale, I don't know what I'd give it.

There is some good being done, or at least attempted, here.
I really and truly appreciate what they are trying to accomplish.
They encourage kids, and allow them to shoot for free.
They get people to a class who would never have gone otherwise.
Good for them for these things.

But I can't see that I would go again.

My biggest complaint is that they try to get people all stirred up into some kind of spirtual thing, like they are sweeping across the land changing the face of shooting and converting souls of the masses along with it. But I didn't see anything that couldn't be gained from a gun club's Highpower clinic or new shooter clinic.
Not that that isn't a great thing.
But they get so carried away. Part of the instruction was held under the roof of the range's shelter house, and I couldn't help but feel like being at an old tent revival. I was expecting to see old ladies start forward and swoon.
We got T-shirts that proclaimed "I was there, for the adventure. I was there, for the rebirth..."
Just a little too much for me. Too much drama.

But on the other hand...
If that is what it took to get people out and interested in trying to shoot better, then I can see the reasoning behind it.
I may not get swept away in the wave of emotion, but I understand that if they had stuck to the dry facts and labled it a "Basic Learn Your Rifle Event", "Highpower-like Instruction", or "Beginner's Clinic", they wouldn't have had near the interest. I know that I've ran across a lot of people who could benefit from something like this, but know that getting them there is something else. If whipping them into a frenzy is what does it, then it's a cunning plan.

And the people did come. I think we had 63 shooters.
We had six instructors. One was the "Shoot Boss" and I think one other was a "full" instructor, but the rest were Instructors In Training (IITs). I found that they vary, but more on that later. They split off 15 new (or close to it) shooters and put them on one range with one instructor and an IIT, and the other 48 of us went with the remaining instructor and three IITs.

I've been to classes with a 12 to 1 student/instructor ratio before and it went well, but the instructor was excellent in those cases. Here, the instructor was fine, but the IITs varied. Due to the layout of the line, our IIT was assigned to ten of us. I really can't say what my IIT on Saturday was like because I didn't see him much. After shooting a string, we would head downrange and the instructors would go down the line analyzing targets. Ours would only be to the fourth or fifth target/shooter when we would all be called back to the line. The rest of us were left to self-analysis, I guess. He got a little better late in the day, and would catch us all if it was a long break, but he wasn't that much help when he did. The little briefings by the main instructor on positions during breaks were OK, but when on the line, I might as well have spent a day at the range alone.
But-
They shuffled instructors and IITs on Sunday and we got a good one. He was making quick, concise corrections as we shot a string, then made good analysis at the targets. And he did that very quickly because he had read our shooting at the line and knew what to expect- like a good instructor will do.
Unfortunately, Sunday was a shorter day, so we didn't get the good guy that long.

I didn't complain about the IIT on Saturday because, for all I knew, he was typical or as good as it got. I don't know, and can't say, which of the two instructors I had were more typical of what you get at an Appleseed. I get the impression it can go either way, but don't know that.
And that brings me to the instructor selection and/or training process. Their training process was outlined by Grin Reaper in an earlier post. I dont know about that. I understand they are all volunteers and it wouldn't happen without them, so we should be lucky to have any...but it has to make it difficult to get the level of instructor desired. The "boot camp" that makes up the bulk of instructor requirements sounds a lot like a five-day Appleseed to me. Our Sunday IIT said he brought 1600 rounds to his, but didn't shoot it all.
How many of us have had five days of training somewhere and shot up 1500 rounds in the process?
Now how many of us feel that made us and our classmates qualified to teach there? I never have felt that way after five days of training from anyone.
If they want to hold a bunch of these things all over the country at the some time, they are going to need a lot of instructors who are willing to do it for nothing. I understand that they can't be that choosy.
But it couldn't happen at all without them, so I don't know how else they could do it. Well, at least, not get the numbers they want. I would rather see fewer shoots with a lower student-to-instructor ratio. But they seem to be heavy into numbers (We had almost 500 shooters across the nation this weekend! Next year- a Thousand!).

One high point for me might be that they read a recount of the events on April 19, 1775 at Lexington, Concord, and Acton, Mass (last weekend being the anniversary of that). I'm kind of a history nut, so enjoyed hearing the account.

I don't know how to sum it up.
It's no Gunsite, Blackwater, YFA or Cumberland Tactics course. It doesn't claim to be, either.
What it is, is a Highpower clinic held at a reduced course of 25 meters with some shorter time limits in some stages and a bonus history lesson. It doesn't claim to be that either, but that's what it is.
It doesn't cost as much as Gunsite or the others either, at $70 (kids and active military free).
But that's more than most Highpower clinics.
That $70 is still cheap for training, but I'm having trouble figuring out where $70 went with volunteer instructors, a donated range, scrap cardboard backers, and volunteers posting flyers and spreading the word. I shot up eight paper targets this weekend. Let's say that as much as 25% of the 63 shooters at mine were "free shooters"- it still would have generated almost $3,300. I can't imagine it cost that much to hold.

Did I learn anything and/or improve?
Learn? I used to shoot Highpower, so nothing was really new to me. Had I never shot Highpower, then yes, I probably would have.
But it's nothing that can't be picked up at one of many club Highpower clinics held at the start of every season. I got as much from a HP clinic I took ten years ago, but it cost under $10 and didn't come with all the dramatics in the presentation.
Improve? I have to ask myself if I had just spent the time at the range, would I would have gained as much? If I asked that after most classes, the answer would be easy because I gained many times more at the class, but in THIS case, I'm having to think before I can even say yes or no. Maybe that answers the question.
Sunday, everybody showed improvement as the day went on. But the day consisted of: We checked zero on 1" squares (All shooting was done at 25M), did some ball and dummy drills, then shot the AQT (25M Army Qualification Test) four times. Everybody around me that I could see showed steady improvement as we went. No great leaps, but steady inching up.
But if you shoot the same course four times in a row, that's what most people see.

I just don't know what to say.
It's a worthy endeavor. They are getting people out and making some or most of them shoot better. There are other clinics doing about the same thing, but the difference is that these Appleseeds are making themselves visible and drawing people in who otherwise would never go to any class. If I thought it would be the spark to get them to proceed into other training, I would be happier, but it appears that many swallow the evangelistic bait and keep taking Appleseeds over and over. Nothing wrong with that if it helps them, but I think you can find the same thing with less drama and back-patting by checking with your state association's Highpower committee or area gun clubs.

I thought it might be good for if/when my kids show some interest in shooting, but after having gone, I'm not so sure. I think it is probably enjoyable for some kids, and not at all for others. I have the feeling that the overdramatic presentation will make a lot of kids sit back, look at their Dad, and say "Dad, this is dumb, can we go home now?" There was a Dad and daughter next to me on the line Saturday who did not return on Sunday. From hearing them talk throughout the day, I'm pretty sure that's what happened there.
But some kids probably like it. I would rather the presenters chilled a bit, and although some kids might not like it as much, others wouldn't be turned off by it and leave or never even go to begin with.

Shrike9
04-21-08, 11:20
Barry, thanks for the excellent review.

I've been extremly leery of going to one for a while, but the oldest daughter really want to "give it a shot" :p :p and since she shoots "free" I figure why not and we will make it a father daughter weekend.

If nothing else at least we will have spent quality time together out on a range.

Since I won't be shooting I can play coach if needed to the extent of my abilities.

Is there anything you see you needed at the range ya did not bring, or brought extra of? The range we are going to is several hours away and we have no idea what to bring other than a little of everything along with what they recommend.

Barry in IN
04-21-08, 12:44
A day at the range is always good. Two days are even better. Two days at the range with your kid must be the best.

Take a staple gun. A lot of people didn't have one, so they got passed around a lot. And that leads to two more things- put your name on it, and bring plenty of staples.

Bring something to cover your stuff with if it rains. Bring two or three rain covers for each of you. They want you to keep your extra gear behind the line about ten feet so they can walk the line easily checking open bolts/safeties on/chamber flags in, so I had my shooting mat with rifle and ammo on it to cover, plus I had other gear behind the line to cover.
Some people put tarps under their shooting mats as the ground was a little muddy.

I don't remember how many mags they suggest and what capacity, but ten rounds is the most you shoot in MOST strings. Somewhere I thought I saw that two 5-rd mags would do, but one target (the Redcoat target) is 13 rounds and timed, so if you can avoid having to change mags it would save you some time that you can use to shoot.
I mostly used an M1 Garand, so got along fine with one 2-rd and a bunch of 8-rd clips.
There were an awful lot of 10-22s on the line.

Other than that, follow their list. Rifle, ammo, mags, sling, and a mat of some kind to lay on are the main things.
I haven't counted it up yet, but I shot somewhere between 200 and 300 rounds. Edit: I shot 302 rds.