View Full Version : Free Float vs Non-Free Float
I am about to start on my 6th build. Yes, I have the AR bug bad.
But my question is whether free floating actually has any value to accuracy.
Regular: Upper >> Barrel nut >> Delta ring >> Hand guard cap >> Barrel
Free Float: Upper >> Barrel nut >>
Both must hold on to the barrel nut (factory or not) and must connect to either the wobbly upper or not.
So I don't see how free floating helps with accuracy since ultimately you end up holding the rifle via the hand guard and if you have any wobble in the upper you could already be off by 1 MOA.
Any insight would be great. Thanks.
Free floating improves accuracy definitely. FF forearm is isolated from the abrrel, whereas regular build entails front end of HGs contacting the barrel. Any sling pressures get transferred to barrel ,barel harmonics are impacted, etc.
FF has been a staple of the HP crowd for eons, and they wouldn't go through those efforts if there were no benefit.
SomeOtherGuy
08-26-12, 11:23
Free floating can, and on an AR usually does, help in two ways:
1) Eliminating any variable pressures on the barrel, like sling or bipod, to avoid bending the barrel and changing POI relative to how you zeroed the rifle; and
2) Eliminating interference with barrel harmonics so that the barrel vibrates the same way with each shot.
The amount of benefit will depend on how stiff the barrel is (largely a factor of its length and diameter) and how you use it. Someone using a 1" bull barrel the exact same way for each shot might see relatively little benefit, while someone using a pencil barrel in varied positions, with and without sling pressure/bipod/barricade support might see a major benefit.
It's notable that many non-AR rifles, such as the M1A and many boltguns, will get best accuracy with only part of the barrel floating, and the rest bedded to a rigid stock. That's not generally practical with an AR, while the AR design makes it fairly easy to free float the whole barrel, so the AR recipe is usually to be fully free floating.
I am about to start on my 6th build. Yes, I have the AR bug bad.
But my question is whether free floating actually has any value to accuracy.
Regular: Upper >> Barrel nut >> Delta ring >> Hand guard cap >> Barrel
Free Float: Upper >> Barrel nut >>
Both must hold on to the barrel nut (factory or not) and must connect to either the wobbly upper or not.
So I don't see how free floating helps with accuracy since ultimately you end up holding the rifle via the hand guard and if you have any wobble in the upper you could already be off by 1 MOA.
Any insight would be great. Thanks.
By wobble, are you referring to the play between the upper and lower? I'm not sure where 1 MOA came from, but as your sights are attached to the upper, not the lower, you can disregard it.
Free floating improves accuracy definitely. FF forearm is isolated from the abrrel, whereas regular build entails front end of HGs contacting the barrel. Any sling pressures get transferred to barrel ,barel harmonics are impacted, etc.
FF has been a staple of the HP crowd for eons, and they wouldn't go through those efforts if there were no benefit.
This is largely correct, but both of these posts talk about accuracy. That's not really what free floating addresses. A free float tube is about repeatability; it removes (well, minimizes) variables.
I'll use your example of highpower shooters. If sling tension was consistent, then it could be accounted for. "Cranking down on my sling moves POI X amount. I'll adjust my sights X amount." But its not consistent. The barrel may still have the same inherent accuracy, but its getting aimed at a different point each time. By using a FF tube, you remove the varying influence of the sling on the barrel.
This applies to anything that would apply a force on the barrel through the non-FF handguard: using a bipod, resting the handguard on a support, getting a really firm grip on the gun, etc.
If you will never use a sling to provide support and you don't intend to shoot past 100-200 Meters a free-float tube or rail is an expense you should probably forego for an optic that will help you point better, or ammunition.
sinlessorrow
08-26-12, 12:05
I have also read that a FF rail can increase bolt life under certain circumstances like FA fire with lots on the rails. It keeps strain off the barrel which can affect the alignment of the barrel extension.
I have also read that a FF rail can increase bolt life under certain circumstances like FA fire with lots on the rails. It keeps strain off the barrel which can affect the alignment of the barrel extension.
errrrrrrrr.... wut?
sinlessorrow
08-27-12, 11:34
errrrrrrrr.... wut?
Give me a minute to dig it up and ill edit.
ETA:
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-7766.html
"Additonally longer bolt life and increased reliability.
*According to a telecon I had with Gus Taylor"
"I beleive that even a steel bbl nut affixed onto the rail will act as a heatsink to some extent.
The advantages to the FF system (depending on mount type) can allieviate the pressure on the barrel from a vert grip etc.
All weight on the barrel will contribute to forcing the barrel/barrel extension slightly out of alignment - thus forcing more pressure on one side of the bolt - especially on unlocking the locking lugs of the bolt will have unequal pressure exterted upon them - and thus lead to reduced bolt life.
With a more uniform pressure/lock, this then decreases wear and inturn leads to great life and reliability. Additionally this is another place where thin barrels with suppressors suffer greater bolt failure than thicker barrels.
Crane had a metric ton of data on this stuff for those with access who are curious."
Studying bolt stress was part of how Vltor came up with the MUR upper. The wanted a flat top that reduced receiver flex so the bolt went straight into battery all the time.
Jake.g.dpms
08-27-12, 11:48
I'm in the same boat, anyone have any input on brand and ff or non ff?
I'm in the same boat, anyone have any input on brand and ff or non ff?
For what length?
For carbine non FF, I like the KAC RAS all day long. $150 for a great rail.
For FF, there's a ton of options.
Jake.g.dpms
08-27-12, 11:58
For what length?
For carbine non FF, I like the KAC RAS all day long. $150 for a great rail.
For FF, there's a ton of options.
I have a carbine, but I'm lookin to put a 12 inch ff on it, I looked at Troy, MI, and yankee hill, they're all within my price range
No barrel can truly be free floating as long as there is a gas tube.
AlphaKoncepts
08-27-12, 12:30
But my question is whether free floating actually has any value to accuracy.
Regular: Upper >> Barrel nut >> Delta ring >> Hand guard cap >> Barrel
Free Float: Upper >> Barrel nut >>
Both must hold on to the barrel nut (factory or not) and must connect to either the wobbly upper or not.
So I don't see how free floating helps with accuracy since ultimately you end up holding the rifle via the hand guard and if you have any wobble in the upper you could already be off by 1 MOA.
Any insight would be great. Thanks.
Depends what distance you are shooting. 100 yards or less, you're fine with a hand guard. Heck even past 100 yards you're fine with a hand guard unless youw ant to put two bullets through the same hole. There is a difference between accurate and combat accurate.
What I am going to say has already been said, but I will say it anyways :) The reason to free floating barrels is so that there is only one point of contact at the barrel nut. The hand guard gas block creates a 2nd point of contact.
If you are pulling on your sling and your sling is attached in some way to your barrel, that has an affect. If your hand guard is resting on a sand bag and your handguard attached to your barrel, that has an affect. In short, someone used the word repeatability, and that's the perfect word to describe it. With a free floated barrel you will get the most repeatable results. Free floating won't turn a chit barrel into a .001 moa barrel.
AlphaKoncepts
08-27-12, 12:32
I'm in the same boat, anyone have any input on brand and ff or non ff?
For free float, I like the Daniel Defense MFR (available in 9 and 12") or the Troy Alpha rail (available in 7-15"). Both are free float with a continuous top rail, and modular side and bottom rails.
Jake.g.dpms
08-27-12, 12:41
For free float, I like the Daniel Defense MFR (available in 9 and 12") or the Troy Alpha rail (available in 7-15"). Both are free float with a continuous top rail, and modular side and bottom rails.
Any opinion on MI or Yankee hill? I like Troy, but dd is too expensive
Any opinion on MI or Yankee hill? I like Troy, but dd is too expensive
Buy once, cry once applies here. I wouldn't buy another MI, and YHM has a so-so reputation.
You won't regret saving for a good rail.
No barrel can truly be free floating as long as there is a gas tube.
lul...wut?
Jake.g.dpms
08-27-12, 13:09
Buy once, cry once applies here. I wouldn't buy another MI, and YHM has a so-so reputation.
You won't regret saving for a good rail.
How much does a Troy run for?
No idea. I'd look at Centurian Arms, DD, even... LaRue.
At this point in time rifles should just come floated. The difference in price between free and non free floating rails is minor if even present. Combine that with the ability to hold the rifle farther out and FF is win win.
Whitebrad25
08-27-12, 14:44
I prefer free float. some say they don't need it but, in reality, the cost, to me, is justified.
lul...wut?
Think about it.
What about pws rifles? They use their proprietary non-free float rails and their accuracy reviews have been excellent. Maybe they hit the right combination of materials and technology?
Jake.g.dpms
08-27-12, 15:36
No idea. I'd look at Centurian Arms, DD, even... LaRue.
The dd is nice and priced good, but the mid length is a bit pricey, which size would be best to get?
sinlessorrow
08-27-12, 15:46
What about pws rifles? They use their proprietary non-free float rails and their accuracy reviews have been excellent. Maybe they hit the right combination of materials and technology?
They use very nice SS barrels.
How much does a Troy run for?
i got the 15" troy alpha rail for just under $200.00 using the" nutnfancy" discount code when i ordered through troy`s website.i believe it was 10% off total.i love mine on my 300 blackout build.13373
Jake.g.dpms
08-27-12, 19:08
How does the Daniel defense connect to the barrel but if you don't have to change anything?
Jake.g.dpms
08-27-12, 19:21
I meant barrel nut damn autocorrect
totenkopf_u64
08-27-12, 19:31
No barrel can truly be free floating as long as there is a gas tube.
The gas tube is not fastened to the receiver. Also, weighing a fraction of the gas block, I doubt it has any bearing on what the barrel does.
OP, I just installed an 11" Troy Alpha. Simple to hook up, affordable, and pretty light. I can recommend it on those points alone as the rifle isn't finished yet.
Any opinion on MI or Yankee hill? I like Troy, but dd is too expensive
Yankee Hill is obsolete, MI is decent and quality has improved, but of the 3 listed Troy is my choice. If you dont want to spend $300 for a Centurion, Daniel Defense, KAC, or Larue, Troy seems to be the next best option.
Here is my Troy Alpha rail 13"
http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u440/Jason_Prisbrey/jasonsar004.jpg
Jake.g.dpms
08-27-12, 20:53
Thanks for the input, I'm seeing dd omega 7s for 150 on eBay, are they legit?
sinlessorrow
08-27-12, 21:43
Thanks for the input, I'm seeing dd omega 7s for 150 on eBay, are they legit?
probably not, here is another one to check outhttp://troyind.com/%20/rail-systemsaccessories/rails/ar15m16-rails/drop-in-rails/troy-battlerail-charlie
probably not, here is another one to check outhttp://troyind.com/%20/rail-systemsaccessories/rails/ar15m16-rails/drop-in-rails/troy-battlerail-charlie
The Charlie really interests me, it looks pretty sleek. I may have to try one on my 6920.
Jake.g.dpms
08-27-12, 23:27
probably not, here is another one to check outhttp://troyind.com/%20/rail-systemsaccessories/rails/ar15m16-rails/drop-in-rails/troy-battlerail-charlie
Those are cool but I'm getting a low pro gas block so that would make that kinda useless, the alphas seem to be the best option
No barrel can truly be free floating as long as there is a gas tube.
? What about the gas block (if you want to make that argument)? The gas tube more or less floats in the upper, so it doesn't affect anything, and the gas block is essentially part of the barrel.
Buy once, cry once applies here. I wouldn't buy another MI, and YHM has a so-so reputation.
You won't regret saving for a good rail.
As a huge fan of Daniel Defense rails, I will say I am nothing short of impressed with the Midwest Industries Free Float Gen 2 SS. The weight alone is enough reason for one to choose it over a Troy. It has a solid barrel mount, rails are in spec, and the rail segments (though requiring LocTite) are much easier to install than the competition.
They use very nice SS barrels.
Plus when your shooting at the same target off the bench, free float matters little.
If you run a thinner profile barrel, do any bipod shooting, sling shooting, dynamic shooting off barriers, or want to squeeze a little more accuracy - free float is a good idea.
With the influx of minimalist tube add-a-rail handguards at a much lower price than traditional quad rails, I don't see much reason not to free float an AR. Unless you just shoot zombie targets 50 yards and in static at your local range.
There are a lot worse things you could spend your money on. IMHO, all you need is a good carbine, sling, light, optic, and free float rail. If funds are low, get them on that order.
The Army Marksmanship Unit chose to use free float handguards when building the Squad Designated Marksman M16A4 rifles for 3ID. They are very experienced and they chose free float for a reason(s).
It's been well discussed already in this thread, but I thought I would add evidence from SMEs.
Jake.g.dpms
08-28-12, 12:10
With he Troy, do I have to romove the delta ring and get a new barrel nut or just use my existing barrel nut? And does anybody have any videos on how to mount it?
With he Troy, do I have to romove the delta ring and get a new barrel nut or just use my existing barrel nut? And does anybody have any videos on how to mount it?
you will have to remove the delta ring,but will retain the stock barrel nut,or even better;get the core 15 barrel nut!
Jake.g.dpms
08-28-12, 12:39
you will have to remove the delta ring,but will retain the stock barrel nut,or even better;get the core 15 barrel nut!
How exactly does it mount to the barrel nut? It seems like it wouldn't hold up, the MI gen 1SS has a jam nut along with the barrel nut, and I've ears good things about those, and input on those?
jonbondave
08-28-12, 17:59
I've got one on ebay listed for 160 buyout that is definately legit.
Thanks for the input, I'm seeing dd omega 7s for 150 on eBay, are they legit?
OP, troy has a ff handguard, the alpha, with a version with a built in front sight for $270. I would opt for that or get a regular one and add some magpul buis if you are getting a good red dot. That would be about $240for everything... and a hacksaw/dremmal to cut off delta ring.
Think about it.
I did, and it seems you think a. that the gas tube is attatched to something in the upper, which its not. And b. that the gas tube is a rigid object, which its not.
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