View Full Version : What's everyone beef with DPMS?
I have been looking at some threads and it doesn't seem like anyone likes DPMS. I'm not trying to start a words war, I just want to know what's the beef with DPMS?
Don Robison
01-30-08, 21:36
Crap parts
Edit: I forgot crap assembly.
It not only DPMS it Olympic Arms, Double Star etc manufacturers who produce substandard parts that fail.
223 chambers even though marked 5.56
ricky_arthur
01-30-08, 22:41
I have been looking at some threads and it doesn't seem like anyone likes DPMS. I'm not trying to start a words war, I just want to know what's the beef with DPMS?
Some people like them,... I do. I have several and know where lots of others are that have happy owners. The biggest problem with DPMS is that they don't say COLT on the side.;) Some people think anything that is not Colt Noveski or LMT is garbage. Granted you do get what you pay for and for those whose life is on the line It makes sense to cover your bets and get the BEST. But, don't let any one fool you, Even Colt, Noveski and LMT fail, break down and have a lemon slip out from time to time. OTOH there are many thousands of average joe plinkers who would be wasting money to spend extra. Every time I pull the trigger on one of my DPMS's it goes bang and they are more accurate than most people can shoot. If you have the Need and/or the means spend a crap load of money and get something better than the Middle teir Ar's. If you just want a fun gun to shoot get a DPMS or whatever and don't look back.
Ricky
Some people like them,... I do. I have several and know where lots of others are that have happy owners. The biggest problem with DPMS is that they don't say COLT on the side.;) Some people think anything that is not Colt Noveski or LMT is garbage. Granted you do get what you pay for and for those whose life is on the line It makes sense to cover your bets and get the BEST. but don't let any one fool you, Even the Colt, Noveski and LMT fail, break down and have a lemon slip out from time to time. OTOH there are many thousands of average joe plinkers who would be wasting money to spend extra. Every time I pull the trigger on one of my DPMS's it goes bang and they are more accurate than most people can shoot. If you have the Need and/or the means spend a crap load of money and get something better than the Middle teir Ar's. If you just want a fun gun to shoot get a DPMS or whatever and don't look back.
Ricky
:rolleyes:
I couldn't even read half of what you wrote.
ETA: No reason to take this as a chance to complain that you can't afford better stuff which was it seems you are doing.
DPMS doesn't have a lemon slip out when they label .223 chambers as 5.56 or they somehow manufacture a rifle that won't accept KAC parts.
Don Robison
01-30-08, 22:59
The biggest problem with DPMS is that they don't say COLT on the side.
Actually the biggest problem with them is they use garbage parts. Compare one of their LPKs side by side with a CMT, LMT or Colt LPK and you'll see the difference. Then do the same with a BCG. It's more that what is stamped on the side.
Some people think anything that is not Colt Noveski or LMT is garbage.
There are others that put out rifles in the same price point as DPMS that are significantly better weapons. The three you mentioned just happen to consistently put out a quality product. That means something to some folks.
Granted you do get what you pay for and for those whose life is on the line It makes sense to cover your bets and get the BEST. but don't let any one fool you, Even the Colt, Noveski and LMT fail, break down and have a lemon slip out from time to time.
Why not talk about what great fit and finish DPMS has as well. Every manufacturer puts out a bad whatever it is they make from time to time. How they handle the bad product and how consistent they put out a good product is what separates the junk from the quality.
OTOH there are many thousands of average joe plinkers who would be wasting money to spend extra. Every time I pull the trigger on one of my DPMS's it goes bang and they are more accurate than most people can shoot.
If you have the Need and/or the means spend a crap load of money and get something better than the Middle teir Ar's.
Advising people to buy quality vs inferior is wasting their money?:confused: I always thought buying inferior and paying money fixing it was a waste of money.
BTW: DPMS isn't a mid tier AR.
If you just want a fun gun to plink get anything except a DPMS or Oly and don't look back.
Ricky
Fixed that one for you.
My dad was a proffesional mechanic ( really good one). His tool box was full of high dollar Snap On tools (when they were really good). He always told me if you make a living with your tools buy the best you'll never regret it. The other stuff was for novices or week end (back yard mechs).
So where as Colt, LMT, etc. would be the Snap on (make living with tool....). The DPMS would be the Craftman ( weekend warrior, novice etc.......)
Its all good. Depends what you want and "CAN" afford. Lots of mechanics start out with the craftman tool. Then work their way up to the GOOD stuff............
Buy the best you can afford, and if you can't afford the best, save up a little longer.
A firearm is a tool, and it is a tool that when you need it to work...IT NEEDS TO WORK. Period.
Don't skimp.
Buy the best you can afford, and if you can't afford the best, save up a little longer.
A firearm is a tool, and it is a tool that when you need it to work...IT NEEDS TO WORK. Period.
Don't skimp.
Yes sir...great advice. For those who may be able to afford whatever they want!!!
But what about the guy/gal who is on minimum wage who has saved 6 bills to buy an AR and it would take and year or two more to save up for the "Best".
Wouldn't it be better for him/her to at least be in the ball game with a DPMS.
My bet is those users wouldn not shoot their weapon as hard as most of us do.
With proper breakin and maintance I think it would be better then nothing.
Kinda like being stuck out in the middle of nowhere with a flat and no lug wrench.......A cresent wrench could save the day........
Yes sir...great advice. For those who may be able to afford whatever they want!!!
But what about the guy/gal who is on minimum wage who has saved 6 bills to buy an AR and it would take and year or two more to save up for the "Best".
Wouldn't it be better for him/her to at least be in the ball game with a DPMS.
My bet is those users wouldn not shoot their weapon as hard as most of us do.
With proper breakin and maintance I think it would be better then nothing.
Kinda like being stuck out in the middle of nowhere with a flat and no lug wrench.......A cresent wrench could save the day........
Build one from quality parts then.
ricky_arthur
01-31-08, 05:18
:rolleyes:
I couldn't even read half of what you wrote.
Maybe I typed too fast, Try reading slower. lol
DPMS ain't no Craftsman. That's for damn
Sure. BM is craftsman with their warranty etc.
Build one from quality parts then.
Some folks can't change a tire.......
Come on now. You understand.
You would'nt deny honest hard working folks the ability to defend themself and family or put food on the table..... would you? If there were only horsey stamps running around you would do just that.
DPMS, BM and others mentioned exist for the same reason Wal Mart and McDonalds exist.......
Bash them all you want they aren't going away.
The three worst of the worst:
1. Model 1 sales
2. Oly arms
3. DPMS
The problem with these companies is not only the sub-standard parts and production, it's the fact that they ask a premium for their products.
You people are discussing the worst AR manufacturers and NOBODY even mentions Vulcan?
This thread sucks! :p
Seriously - I don't have much experience with DPMS, but the lower on my Del-Ton M4 is a DPMS, and I believe that Del-Ton's LPKs are basically DPMS LPKs. I've had absolutely no issues with it. The fit and finish on the lower is fine - everything is flush.
But I haven't fired entire DPMS rifles so I can't say much else, but yeah.
Failure2Stop
01-31-08, 11:14
Take all that has been written here and think about the following:
The closest thing DPMS makes to an entry-level M4gery is the AP4, which prices on Impact Guns at $799. This comes complete with (2) 30 round mags, cleaning kit, sling, substandard parts and questionable assembly.
G&R Tactical sells the ADS (link to thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7235)) for $825. This comes complete with a hard case, D&H Magazine, check-up by Grant, properly tested parts, proper staking, and black extractor buffer.
$26 isn't much for that kind of service, and that much of a step up in quality. But hey, that's just me.
I have seen three broken bolts in person. All three were DPMS. All three cracked at the cam pin hole. One was at less than 300rounds when it occured.
5.56mm chambers are essential for reliability in the AR platform in my experience. DPMS chambers have consistantly been closer to the .223 Remington spec.
Can DPMS overcome their past shortcomings? Sure they can.
Have they to any degree? I don't know, because I'm going to let someone else go spend their money on testing that out.
Well I started the post so I guess I should put something. I have 2 DPMS rifles, one is the 308 LR-308AP4. I have shot about 2500 rounds with it and the only thing that has ever happened with it is the bolt didn't completely catch the round. The reason for that was I didn't push the mag all the way up(sounds stupid I know).My seconds DPMS is a 55.6 AP4 Carbine, I have shot around 2000 rounds with it and have yet to have ANY problem with it. I know everyone is going to ask if I have really put the guns to the test. I have, Rapid fire, not cleaned them, different loads and they have always fired just fine for me. So in my eyes I don't think they are as bad as everyone is saying, but that's just me.
Jay Cunningham
01-31-08, 15:19
Well I started the post so I guess I should put something. I have 2 DPMS rifles, one is the 308 LR-308AP4. I have shot about 2500 rounds with it and the only thing that has ever happened with it is the bolt didn't completely catch the round. The reason for that was I didn't push the mag all the way up(sounds stupid I know).My seconds DPMS is a 55.6 AP4 Carbine, I have shot around 2000 rounds with it and have yet to have ANY problem with it. I know everyone is going to ask if I have really put the guns to the test. I have, Rapid fire, not cleaned them, different loads and they have always fired just fine for me. So in my eyes I don't think they are as bad as everyone is saying, but that's just me.
That's fine but your statistical sample size of:
2
does not really hold up when you look at civilian contract trainers and organizations that see hundreds and thousands of units. If yours run for you then rock on, brother!
I have been looking at some threads and it doesn't seem like anyone likes DPMS. I'm not trying to start a words war, I just want to know what's the beef with DPMS?
Can you tell us what is good about DPMS?
C4
Well I started the post so I guess I should put something. I have 2 DPMS rifles, one is the 308 LR-308AP4. I have shot about 2500 rounds with it and the only thing that has ever happened with it is the bolt didn't completely catch the round. The reason for that was I didn't push the mag all the way up(sounds stupid I know).My seconds DPMS is a 55.6 AP4 Carbine, I have shot around 2000 rounds with it and have yet to have ANY problem with it. I know everyone is going to ask if I have really put the guns to the test. I have, Rapid fire, not cleaned them, different loads and they have always fired just fine for me. So in my eyes I don't think they are as bad as everyone is saying, but that's just me.
Your round count is low and was most likely shot over 1+ years. Take some carbine schools and report back when you have 5-6K through them.
C4
in this same forum is a user who can't get a KAC M4 RAS to install on his DPMS AP4 without "modification" from his gunsmith... that alone is enough reason for me to avoid them...
Here's the pricelist from my latest AR build (taking advantage of sales, which if you are saving up for a year is plenty of time to find something similar):
LMT 16" Upper Receiver - $389
LMT FA BCG - $100
LMT BUIS - $80
Stag Lower - $90
Stag LPK - $60
Magpul CTR Stock Kit OD - $140
Magpul MIAD Kit OD - $40
Magpul Winter Trigger Guard - $20
Magpul PMAG OD - $15
CMT Charging Handle - $0 (parts box)
CavArms Handguards OD - $20
Grand Total: $954
$155 over the DPMS AP4 gets me:
1/7 Twist
chromelined barrel and chamber
5.56mm NATO chamber
HPT/MPI tested bolt and barrel
properly staked gas key
correct F height FSB
carbine extractor spring and crane o-ring
upgraded stock, grip, and trigger guard.
optics compatible rear sights
if for the sake of argument i used a standard M4 stock (-$60), A2 grip (-$30), standard trigger guard (-$20), and a detachable carry handle (-$35), the total price drops to $809, a $10 difference from the DPMS A4. ;)
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee119/sincity425/AR15/OD_1_800.jpg
I have had the opportunity to handle, disassemble, and reassemble some DPMS' and have seen some substandard things. I bought a Bushy simply because I got a smoking deal from a dealer who gives LE a great discount, and it was what I could afford at the time. This dealer who has been praised in the LE community, and even on here, speaks pretty well of Bushmaster. Considering he used to work for HK that says something. I don't have a high round count yet. But I am sure I will have an issue or three come up. I am already looking to buy a better weapon or at least parts to build a better AR. I am hoping my agency will work something out with getting HK 416 uppers(even if we as SERT members have to pay), and I will buy an LMT, or comparable lower. So I kinda understand the buy what you can afford statement. But, for me to own a DPMS I would have had to pay $600 or less. Now everyone can start the Bushy bashing.:D
Your round count is low and was most likely shot over 1+ years. Take some carbine schools and report back when you have 5-6K through them.
C4
Grant,
So whats the round count on the ADS's? How hard have they been worked?
As a new comer to the AR world their pricing may be a lead in. What do you think?
It will be interesting to see how they do.
You asked....What's good about DPMS? Well..........their marketing is great....It seems I can't visit a gun store without someone asking about them. Seems they have lots of satified customer too.......
I have one DPMS, a AP4 .308. It shoots right out of the box. I had 10 cases of .308 SA when I bought it and have less then 4 cases left. It has yet to malfunction, I can't say that about all 5 of the AR10s Ive owned & sold............
Grant,
So whats the round count on the ADS's? How hard have they been worked?
As a new comer to the AR world their pricing may be a lead in. What do you think?
It will be interesting to see how they do.
You asked....What's good about DPMS? Well..........their marketing is great....It seems I can't visit a gun store without someone asking about them. Seems they have lots of satified customer too.......
I have one DPMS, a AP4 .308. It shoots right out of the box. I had 10 cases of .308 SA when I bought it and have less then 4 cases left. It has yet to malfunction, I can't say that about all 5 of the AR10s Ive owned & sold............
I have about 500rds through it so far.
You can really tell a lot about an AR by how it is assembled and where they buy their components. This is why ADS is such a winner, everything on the weapon is quality.
Their marketing is great? Do you believe what politicians tell you as well? ;)
I know of no serious shooter that likes DPMS. I do know of a lot of safe queens that think they are the "best."
Their 308s are better than their baseline AR's IMHO.
Here is a little clue about AR's. If your AR has NEVER had a malfunction, then you have not pushed it hard enough. Point being that EVERY AR that I have ever owned (including the high dollar ones that we build for ourselves and take to training classes) has had a malfunction at some time.
C4
Robb Jensen
01-31-08, 18:03
Right now I can think of one thing that I actually like about DPMS. The thing I like is that they support USPSA, 3gun and some other shooting sports.
Other than that I find their stripped lowers acceptable. Everything else is questionable.
I have about 500rds through it so far.
You can really tell a lot about an AR by how it is assembled and where they buy their components. This is why ADS is such a winner, everything on the weapon is quality.
There marketing is great? Do you believe what politicians tell you as well? ;)
I know of no serious shooter that likes DPMS. I do know of a lot of safe queens that think they are the "best."
Their 308s are better than their baseline AR's IMHO.
Here is a little clue about AR's. If your AR has NEVER had a malfunction, then you have not pushed it hard enough. Point being that EVERY AR that I have ever owned (including the high dollar ones that we build for ourselves and take to training classes) has had a malfunction at some time.
C4
LOL
Someone believes the Politicians, look at the mess we are in....;)
You wanted to know something good about DPMS so I gave you one.
You are right on the AR's malfunction bit....I don't run my DPMS hard but I never ran any of my AR 10s hard either. And YES the DPMS has not malfuctioned yet!!! I do run several of my other weapons quite hard.
I never said I liked DPMS but I don't hate them and dismiss them as useless. Heck I even own one.
How many classes does one have to take to be a serious shooter? Does a "M" on several shooting organizations classification cards count? Does hunting in some of the harshes conditions with an AR count?
With that all said I learn a lot from all you folks here. I know very little compared to many of you.
I respect your thoughts on the ADS's.
I won't sell my DPMS AP4 .308 though.
LOL
Someone believes the Politicians, look at the mess we are in....;)
You wanted to know something good about DPMS so I gave you one.
You are right on the AR's malfunction bit....I don't run my DPMS hard but I never ran any of my AR 10s hard either. And YES the DPMS has not malfuctioned yet!!! I do run several of my other weapons quite hard.
I never said I liked DPMS but I don't hate them and dismiss them as useless. Heck I even own one.
How many classes does one have to take to be a serious shooter? Does a "M" on several shooting organizations classification cards count? Does hunting in some of the harshes conditions with an AR count?
With that all said I learn a lot from all you folks here. I know very little compared to many of you.
I respect your thoughts on the ADS's.
I won't sell my DPMS AP4 .308 though.
Run your DPMS AR10 hard, and see if it is 100% relible.
I personally do not hate anything, I just cannot recommend DPMS to anyone that is serious about shooting and protecting ones life with a firearm.
A serious shooter is usually defined by the following:
1. Military HSLD type
2. LE/SWAT (that trains a lot)
3. Civy that is defensive minded and trains a lot
No one asked you to sell your DPMS and in all honesty, you most likely have one of the best AR10's out there.
C4
No offense to original poster, but I wished this site could avoid such conversations as these that keep coming up over and over in recent months. There are different tiers of weapons manufacturers, we know that. We don't have to have a thread/day of "Why does everyone hate Bushmaster?" "What's wrong with Olyies?". This site should be a cut above TOS, and I guess I feel that this site should not have the countless over and over again posting of topics listed above. I know I will sound like an a$$ saying this, and I don't mean too, but lets stay on topics that we can actually learn something from. I think that if one comes to this site, they need to read and search for at least a month, soak up that knowledge that others who know have taken the time to post, then ask your questions.
To the original poster, I am not picking on just you, so don't take it personal.
I was suprised to find out just how many companies make AR's. It seems like a new outfit pops up every week. The first time I saw a LMT on Gunbroker (several years ago) my first thought was who are these guys. I thought Colt, Bushmaster, and RR were the big names you always hear in LE in my area. Luckily I ask questions.:D But a lot of LEO agencies in my area that have bought AR's have bought Bushmaster. I now find myself wondering why since Bushmaster seems to be less than mediocre.
I was suprised to find out just how many companies make AR's. It seems like a new outfit pops up every week. The first time I saw a LMT on Gunbroker (several years ago) my first thought was who are these guys. I thought Colt, Bushmaster, and RR were the big names you always hear in LE in my area. Luckily I ask questions.:D But a lot of LEO agencies in my area that have bought AR's have bought Bushmaster. I now find myself wondering why since Bushmaster seems to be less than mediocre.
They buy Bushmasters because someone in accounting makes the decision on what partol rifle should be issued. Bean counters have no idea of what is best.
I think most likely the bean counters want to get the largest quantity of the best rifle that can fit into there budget. Theory being 100 Bushmasters in the hands of officers vs. 70 more exspensive brand rifles in the hands of officers.
I think most likely the bean counters want to get the largest quantity of the best rifle that can fit into there budget. Theory being 100 Bushmasters in the hands of officers vs. 70 more exspensive brand rifles in the hands of officers.
Then figure out the cost of replacement parts that will need to be bought, when the non-MPI bolts go to breaking and Gas keys come loose, or when the rifle Ka-booms from having a 5.56mm shot out of a .223 chamber, among other things that could have been prevented by buying a better brand. The cost per rifle for a department purchase will not be that significant between brands for the department to justify the cost of fixing the lesser quality guns in the long run. Departments don't pay what you or I pay for these rifles.
I'd hate to know that I took part in buying just 1 rifle for an officer that might go down on him when he needed it most, no matter what.
Jay Cunningham
01-31-08, 22:47
Another thing to keep in mind is that LE rifles don't get run hard. At all. SWAT is different but patrol rifles don't see much action. Non-milspec is probably fine for them (hate to say it....)
Another thing to keep in mind is that LE rifles don't get run hard. At all. SWAT is different but patrol rifles don't see much action. Non-milspec is probably fine for them (hate to say it....)
Very true. Our patrol guys that carry rifles usually shoot 100 rounds a year to qualify and thats it. But our agency doesn't buy rifles for you. We have 25-30 Viet Nam era M-16's that are on loan from Uncle Sam, and a handful of M-14's.
I found it! Skintop was the author. I have a printout of this review in my nightstand that I occasionally run across and read. I didn't print the author though!
Some interesting observations on the DPMS rifles.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7625
I found it! Skintop was the author. I have a printout of this review in my nightstand that I occasionally run across and read. I didn't print the author though!
Some interesting observations on the DPMS rifles.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7625
mark, you can lead a horse to water....
i was at an action shoot a month ago, and they were planning on doing a carbine shoot... of course my ears perked up... immediately it started with some "ex-USMC NRA instructor" bashing Colt and singing the praises of lower end DPMS and Olympic rifles... his argument was although you might see more issues they are cheaper, and if they keep the round count low in each stage of the match, it should keep malfunctions to a minimum.
i stayed home that day.
his argument was although you might see more issues they are cheaper, and if they keep the round count low in each stage of the match, it should keep malfunctions to a minimum.
That's SOME logic! :eek:
Right now I can think of one thing that I actually like about DPMS. The thing I like is that they support USPSA, 3gun and some other shooting sports.
Other than that I find their stripped lowers acceptable. Everything else is questionable.
Good point Robb! Support for shooting is HUGE in my book and DPMS does not have to support us (for example, Kimber won't give a dime to us or IDPA).
I don't doubt the problems you saw at all though - you see far more AR products up close than I ever will - AND I don't own a DPMS rifle.
The one product from them I do own is a slick-side upper I bought to mill for a side-charging handle from Fultom Armory out of Maryland (its the one pictured in the competition section of m4carbine.net - thanks for the fame!).
While it works well, I found out the hard way that some if not all DPMS uppers will not fit in the normal AR-15 upper receiver holding blocks; this is not really a defect per se; its just that the DPMS uppers are larger. Don't make the mistake I did & expect it to fit.
Luckily, the flat top DPMS upper could be clamped in an aluminum lined mill vice. The price was right.
There are some 3gunners who are happy with the accuracy that they are getting with RECENT manufacture DPMS barrels; I don't think any of them said who's bolt, carrier, or upper they are using.
For the money though, I'd likely buy an Armalite barrel before I risked a DPMS or an Oly.
BTW, anyone notice that both DPMS and Bushmaster are now owned by Cerberus? Any chnce they will merge?
As a gunsmith I have had several beefs with DPMS over the years.
The first incident involved a stripped receiver I bought about 5 years ago. The bolt stop pin hole was drilled crooked. I mean way off. I called them about the problem and they pretty much laughed at me. The person on the phone had no interest in any type of factory support.
The second incident involved a .308 I ordered for a friend of mine. It was equipped with a crooked free float tube which had hard contact with the gas block. Again, the factory had no interest in helping my friend. We removed the tube and machined it a bit shorter on the lathe to provide clearance.
The third incident involved the same .308. The plastic magazines were crap. If you touched the plastic mag at all while firing the gun jammed. The factory claimed that steel mags were on the verge of release and the new mags would solve the problem. It took two years for new mags to hit the market.
Another incident involves their 7.62x39 rifles. They know the plastic mags supplied with the rifles don't work but they continue to sell the rifles and shrug off complaints.
I won't say I have never used any DPMS parts but any company that won't back up their products with customer service won't get my recommendation or respect.
Combat_Diver
02-01-08, 23:30
BTW, anyone notice that both DPMS and Bushmaster are now owned by Cerberus? Any chnce they will merge?
Don't forget that Cerberus also owns Remington Arms now. My only experience with DPMS is a flat top upper that fit fine on my old OLY/SGW lower reciever. That gun has been run hard by me over the years, keeping up on my drills on my own dime between deployments and been 100% reliabile with 5.56mm (the M261 .22LR conversion kit was another problem)
CD
By the way let me introduce myself. I've been reading here for over a month now and post on several other gun sites with same name. I just retired from over 24 yrs of Special Forces service with the Army
Deadcenter45
02-02-08, 00:12
*SNIP*
CD
By the way let me introduce myself. I've been reading here for over a month now and post on several other gun sites with same name. I just retired from over 24 yrs of Special Forces service with the Army
Thank you for your service! ( and welcome to the forum )
Failure2Stop
02-02-08, 11:54
The bolt stop pin hole was drilled crooked.
Are you referring to the bolt catch pin hole in the lower receiver?
I am not being nit-picky about terminology here, just making sure I understand what you are talking about.
Are you referring to the bolt catch pin hole in the lower receiver?
I am not being nit-picky about terminology here, just making sure I understand what you are talking about.
Yes. You know what I meant.
Take all that has been written here and think about the following:
The closest thing DPMS makes to an entry-level M4gery is the AP4, which prices on Impact Guns at $799. This comes complete with (2) 30 round mags, cleaning kit, sling, substandard parts and questionable assembly.
G&R Tactical sells the ADS (link to thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7235)) for $825. This comes complete with a hard case, D&H Magazine, check-up by Grant, properly tested parts, proper staking, and black extractor buffer.
$26 isn't much for that kind of service, and that much of a step up in quality. But hey, that's just me.
That's good advice. If only this forum was required reading before making an AR purchase. The problem is that most people are not here reading, and our local gun shops are stocked full of low end AR's being pushed by dealers who either don't know or don't care.
But you're right - there is no reason for the informed AR buyer to purchase anything substandard - good deals on good AR's are out there if you know where to look.
Thanks for the INFO on this.
Hootie,
You nailed it on the head. I see this over here all the time. Bean counters count money that's it. Most have no weapons knowledge or practical knowledge of what is needed in the field. Ideally if I was running the show I would change things like gas rings, gas tubes, etc...before they break or cause problems. That is called preventative maintenance. All they see is the initial cost of a good weapon and the not what it will save in the long run. So then the cutting begins. Unfortunately the price that is paid down the road in replacement parts or the life of an officer, service member or whatever who is killed because of that crap is much higher.
Then figure out the cost of replacement parts that will need to be bought, when the non-MPI bolts go to breaking and Gas keys come loose, or when the rifle Ka-booms from having a 5.56mm shot out of a .223 chamber, among other things that could have been prevented by buying a better brand. The cost per rifle for a department purchase will not be that significant between brands for the department to justify the cost of fixing the lesser quality guns in the long run. Departments don't pay what you or I pay for these rifles.
I'd hate to know that I took part in buying just 1 rifle for an officer that might go down on him when he needed it most, no matter what.
Poor quality control and/or poor barrels. DPMS replaced the extremely poor barrel on my brand new AP4 at no charge, but such a piss poor barrel should never have gotten past any responsible manufacturer's QC checks. Of course, I was not compensated for headaches, lost time, lost range expenses, ammo expenses, or even shipping costs. Best bench group with .308 Fed Gold Match was 8+inches at 28 yards. A very bad experience.
KYPD,
A friend of mine had the same issue and after (2) different barrels he just said **** it and got another. Disappointing to say the least.
CleverNickname
02-03-08, 17:17
Other than that I find their stripped lowers acceptable. Everything else is questionable.
I bought a couple stripped DPMS lowers awhile back and I found their magwells to be too tight. My Hahn 9mm magwell drops right into my Bushmaster lowers but it took a lot of work to insert or remove the magwell from any of the DPMS lowers. Guess which lowers got sold later? :D
Hey A DPMS is a 100% viable "weapon" if it shot 100 rounds a year and kept in the safe. It is also noce to show your buddies tha you got
"one of dem M4's"!
You get what you pay for!
I guess my experience has been different. My DPMS is heading into 4000 rounds and I haven't had a single problem with it. It shoots one-hole groups and I consider it the best $700 I ever spent.
Having said that, there are some improvements I'm going to make to it, based on some of the advice I have seen on this board.
Overall, I am very satisfied with my rifle, and I think it was a good buy.
http://www.pakieser.com/firearms/dissy_800.JPG
I guess my experience has been different. My DPMS is heading into 4000 rounds and I haven't had a single problem with it. It shoots one-hole groups and I consider it the best $700 I ever spent.
Having said that, there are some improvements I'm going to make to it, based on some of the advice I have seen on this board.
Overall, I am very satisfied with my rifle, and I think it was a good buy.
http://www.pakieser.com/firearms/dissy_800.JPG
Over what time period was those 4000rds rired? How hard have you pushed the weapon?
abnartyguy
02-04-08, 16:00
Bottom line from my experience, use what parts you want, as long as a compitant gun smith looks at what he is using and its a good part then it will work. My experience says DPMS parts are fine if assembled by someone that knows what they are doing, their QC has had their issues, bottom line, you get what you paid for. later
Remember911
02-04-08, 17:16
I have said that time and time again it is the one that puts the gun togther along with good parts that makes the build work (or not.) keep in mind I said good parts.
QuickStrike
02-04-08, 19:15
Refer to the wonderful chart by Rob S. :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/Wolf_Spyder/071120-AR-Comparison-Chart.jpg
IMO, DPMS is freakin' expensive for what it is... :mad:
Over what time period was those 4000rds rired? How hard have you pushed the weapon?
I've had the gun for about 2-1/2 years. Now that I am thinking of it, I probably have over 4000 rounds because I usually bring around 250 rounds to the range. Last range day I fired 700 rounds without any problems.
During the winter I shoot indoors at scaled AQT targets, I do more shooting in the summer. Seems like a waste of money to shoot an AR15 on an indoor range.
I also used DPMS rifles on the Corrections SORT team I was on and working towers. Never had any problems with accuracy or reliability. We used the flattop 20" with the ACOG there.
Like I said, best $700 I ever spent. YMMV.
I also like to support DPMS not just for their commitment to shooting sports, but to veterans as well. They go out of their way to hire veterans. As a veteran myself, I have a lot of respect for that.
I've had the gun for about 2-1/2 years. Now that I am thinking of it, I probably have over 4000 rounds because I usually bring around 250 rounds to the range. Last range day I fired 700 rounds without any problems.
During the winter I shoot indoors at scaled AQT targets, I do more shooting in the summer. Seems like a waste of money to shoot an AR15 on an indoor range.
I also used DPMS rifles on the Corrections SORT team I was on and working towers. Never had any problems with accuracy or reliability. We used the flattop 20" with the ACOG there.
Like I said, best $700 I ever spent. YMMV.
I also like to support DPMS not just for their commitment to shooting sports, but to veterans as well. They go out of their way to hire veterans. As a veteran myself, I have a lot of respect for that.
Take a look at the chart above or in the sticky section and it will tell you what you have. Im a dealer and see lots AR's. DPMS rifles and its parts are truly at the bottom of the barrel. I wont even order one for someone any longer, the same goes for a few other companies.
DPMS -- Didn't Pass Military Spec
Several of their LPK's wont fit real guns.
Brittle Bolts.
I've had a very nice DPMS upper than ran well -- and a Chrome M16 bolt carrier I uses in my SR16 here --- however I've seen WAY more dog's and givne their history I would advise people to look elsewhere.
TheGhostRider
02-08-08, 18:11
If DPMS is so bad..........
Why does Bravo Company Manufacturing sell DPMS products?
I'm curious.
Don Robison
02-08-08, 18:22
If DPMS is so bad..........
Why does Bravo Company Manufacturing sell DPMS products?
I'm curious.
I can't speak for him, but I would have to guess profit margin and steady supply.
If DPMS is so bad..........
Why does Bravo Company Manufacturing sell DPMS products?
I'm curious.
Hey dont blame the guy selling the product, blame the one buying it.
If DPMS is so bad..........
Why does Bravo Company Manufacturing sell DPMS products?
I'm curious.
Well if you look at the items they stock, they are BEST of what DPMS does. The items on the Bravo Company website for DPMS are as follows:
Lower parts
308 Mags
Receiver Block (which I personally use as well).
Offset pin for Colt AR's
Notice that there are NO DPMS AR's, barrels, lower, stock, etc. This should be a clue. ;)
As much as I dislike RRA, I stock their 9mm AR's because I think they are pretty good. I do not stock any of their other stuff (again a clue).
C4
Im a noob.
I am looking for a AR15
I will mostly be hunting in AK (Harsh cold is a mainstay) This is going to be my predator/trap line rifle. I was thinking about a DPMS Panter 20 but I am glad I read this first. What do you guy suggest? Its not going to be a service rifle, but I do want it to perform and I am going to use it at the range quite a bit. I want something I can mount optics on so a flat top is a must.
Thanks.
wow. maybe I just got lucky. I got a used DPMS about 6 weeks ago. the previous owner sold it to buy another DPMS. I have only shot 400-500 rounds through it but it works like it should. acurate and reliable. the trigger sucks but aside from that I am very pleased with the weapon thus far. granted I haven't owned it a long time.
wow. maybe I just got lucky. I got a used DPMS about 6 weeks ago. the previous owner sold it to buy another DPMS. I have only shot 400-500 rounds through it but it works like it should. acurate and reliable. the trigger sucks but aside from that I am very pleased with the weapon thus far. granted I haven't owned it a long time.
Run it through a high round training class that shhots the rounds in a short amount f time and then report back on its reliability and if your lucky.
Run it through a high round training class that shhots the rounds in a short amount f time and then report back on its reliability and if your lucky.
I'll do that
I will admit that I haven't shot it very much but you seem to focus only on the bad reports and shrug off the storys of people who have had a good experiance. someone said they had 4,000 rounds through his without a single hickup and it was dismised because it was over a long stretch. thats not as hard on a rifle as running through a few thousand in a few weeks or even months ibut t's still 4,000 rounds. would you pay high book value for a car with 200,000 miles on it even if you knew it was all highway cruising and no hauling? no because it still got a lot of miles on it.
I'm not trying to say DPMS is as good as brand x or brand y or anything but I have talked to pleanty of people with positive feedback for them.
What's everyone beef with DPMS?
Because Bushmaster and Colt are better.
They use substandard materials, assembled poorly and incorrectly.
Most people have few problems with their low end rifles, as they never shoot them much.
Start pushing them them hard, they have major problems and will not go "bang" when they should.
This has been shown over, and over, and over again . . . ad naseum.
As for me (and others on this board), I HAVE to have hard use tools that work EVERY time so I can depend on them to defend my life and the lives of others.
johnson601
03-07-08, 11:02
When I got out of the Army the first thing I wanted to do was buy my very own M4 style rifle (like I had in the service). Coming from the Army I thought only Colt made these kind of weapons. So I went to a local gun shop to buy an AR15. The dumbass behind the counter told me that the Colt 6920 was good, but if I wanted a great rifle to look at this dpms. The dpms had all the fancy shit on it and he told me that they were by far the best AR's you could buy.... He handed me the dpms a-4 or something (don't remember what model it was), at that time I was certain that this guy was full of it. I knew nothing about AR's at that time, but I did know military weapons and that dpms felt nothing like the "real thing". My point is, I carried a real weapon 24/7 for about a year and a half (while in Iraq) and I could tell dpms was complete garbage just by holding it. That to me is very bad quality. To this day I have never fired a dpms or know anyone that has one, this is just my personal opinion.
It has been fun keeping up with this thread because of, if nothing else, the civil tone not usually seen on certain other boards. I have a DPMS .308 carbine and I wish I had 2K rounds to devote to disturbing the neighbors at the local range in the shortest time I could manage so I could speak to the ruggedness or lack thereof through personal experience. However the AR-15 is a Colt because as much as I like the fit, finish and function of the DPMS in .308, I felt the Colt offered the best chance to work now without having to spend time and money sorting it out.
I knew nothing about AR's at that time, but I did know military weapons and that dpms felt nothing like the "real thing". My point is, I carried a real weapon 24/7 for about a year and a half (while in Iraq) and I could tell dpms was complete garbage just by holding it. That to me is very bad quality. To this day I have never fired a dpms or know anyone that has one, this is just my personal opinion.
I think that say's it all. A valid opinion from someone who has used the real thing.
Alaskapopo
03-07-08, 19:29
Some people like them,... I do. I have several and know where lots of others are that have happy owners. The biggest problem with DPMS is that they don't say COLT on the side.;) Some people think anything that is not Colt Noveski or LMT is garbage. Granted you do get what you pay for and for those whose life is on the line It makes sense to cover your bets and get the BEST. But, don't let any one fool you, Even Colt, Noveski and LMT fail, break down and have a lemon slip out from time to time. OTOH there are many thousands of average joe plinkers who would be wasting money to spend extra. Every time I pull the trigger on one of my DPMS's it goes bang and they are more accurate than most people can shoot. If you have the Need and/or the means spend a crap load of money and get something better than the Middle teir Ar's. If you just want a fun gun to shoot get a DPMS or whatever and don't look back.
Ricky
As a firearms instructor and armorer for an agency that issues them I will concur they are total crap. I have had a lot of issues with these rifles and I carry a personally owned Colt because I do not trust the departments DPMS crap rifles.
Pat
Alaskapopo
03-07-08, 19:37
I'll do that
I will admit that I haven't shot it very much but you seem to focus only on the bad reports and shrug off the storys of people who have had a good experiance. someone said they had 4,000 rounds through his without a single hickup and it was dismised because it was over a long stretch. thats not as hard on a rifle as running through a few thousand in a few weeks or even months ibut t's still 4,000 rounds. would you pay high book value for a car with 200,000 miles on it even if you knew it was all highway cruising and no hauling? no because it still got a lot of miles on it.
I'm not trying to say DPMS is as good as brand x or brand y or anything but I have talked to pleanty of people with positive feedback for them.
What type of people are reporting back positive. People who shoot at the range once a year or people who use them as tools whose lives depend on them.
Pat
wezalsgunsupply
03-07-08, 19:57
A couple things to consider. First buy the best you can afford. Whatever brand that be. Second. What do you want it for. Weekend fun for a couple hundred rounds? Dpms will hold up. Serios hardcore shooting. Get a higher quality rifle. Just buy the best you can. If that takes a couple extra days of overtime to do it. Work it. For a little more cash you can get a Rock River. Avoid Olympic Arms. Cmmg sells bulk used barrel guns for $570 bucks. Thay are all Double Star, CMMG, and so on. Thats the good buy for a new guy starting out. Don't buy high end unless you are serios about it. Why pay a grand for a gun that might get 500 rounds a year? Start out by deciding how you want to shoot then research the best gun for you.
Buy cheap, get cheap.
Buy cheap, buy twice.
I would not even have one as a plinker, as I would want even a plinker to run reliably.
Coworker of mine bought a DPMS carbine (similar in appearance to a Colt 6520) and brought to the range. It wouldn't make it through a mag. Changed mags and and ammo to mine, not his (Black Hills 55 FMJ and Colt 30 round mags with SAW enhanced springs and green followers that work in all my AR15s).
Same result.
On disassembling the carbine and close inspection, guess what? Not even an attempt to stake the bolts on the carrier key. Furthermore, the castle nut was loose, and the extractor spring insert was not the correct carbine insert, but a rifle insert.
If you don't make a lot of $$$, bet that you could save for a few more paydays and get a quality product that you can plink with, take a HSLD class with, and depend on to save your life with.
Alaskapopo
03-08-08, 02:05
A couple things to consider. First buy the best you can afford. Whatever brand that be. Second. What do you want it for. Weekend fun for a couple hundred rounds? Dpms will hold up. Serios hardcore shooting. Get a higher quality rifle. Just buy the best you can. If that takes a couple extra days of overtime to do it. Work it. For a little more cash you can get a Rock River. Avoid Olympic Arms. Cmmg sells bulk used barrel guns for $570 bucks. Thay are all Double Star, CMMG, and so on. Thats the good buy for a new guy starting out. Don't buy high end unless you are serios about it. Why pay a grand for a gun that might get 500 rounds a year? Start out by deciding how you want to shoot then research the best gun for you.
Don't buy substandard equipment its not worth the aggravation. Even if the gun is just for plinking buy quality. If you buy crap you will just have to pay more money in the long run.
Pat
johnson601
03-08-08, 03:49
A couple things to consider. First buy the best you can afford. Whatever brand that be. Second. What do you want it for. Weekend fun for a couple hundred rounds? Dpms will hold up. Serios hardcore shooting. Get a higher quality rifle. Just buy the best you can. If that takes a couple extra days of overtime to do it. Work it. For a little more cash you can get a Rock River. Avoid Olympic Arms. Cmmg sells bulk used barrel guns for $570 bucks. Thay are all Double Star, CMMG, and so on. Thats the good buy for a new guy starting out. Don't buy high end unless you are serios about it. Why pay a grand for a gun that might get 500 rounds a year? Start out by deciding how you want to shoot then research the best gun for you.
Just buy quality, bottom line. If your AR is a "safe queen" that only gets used for weekend fun for a couple hundred rounds that is fine. Save yourself time and trouble by avoiding guns like dpms. I looked around for some pricing on a dpms ap4 panther carbine, the price range is from $850-$1100. My biggest problem is people say they get these because they will just be used for plinking and they are affordable. Why not buy a LMT complete lower for $330, BCM M4 upper $450, CMT BCG $130, charging handle $20, BCM handgaurds $25 and a BCM carry handle $110. That comes out to $1065, the choice should be very clear.
I bought one DPMS stripped lower & found no problems with it. BUT I used other non-DPMS parts to complete the lower such as a RRA 2-stage trigger & a CMT LPK.
was gona do a dpms build that was the orginal plan (build on a budget) but when i got my lpk for them and the kit was missing the trigger and hammer pin dpms went out the door...and $1300 later im happy with spending more for a weekend plinking tool that i know that can stand up to the fight..
just my .02
just bought a dpms lpk from brownells (c&r + 10% discount makes it really cheap)
I'll compare it to my LMT and STAG parts
I'll do that
I will admit that I haven't shot it very much but you seem to focus only on the bad reports and shrug off the storys of people who have had a good experiance. .
Read through the website here and if you still dont get it let me know.
I bought one DPMS stripped lower & found no problems with it. BUT I used other non-DPMS parts to complete the lower such as a RRA 2-stage trigger & a CMT LPK.
A stripped lower is just a shel and unless its out of spec there isnt much to go wrong with it.
Read through the website here and if you still dont get it let me know.
dpms is the anitchrist, got it.
RAM Engineer
03-09-08, 19:10
dpms is the anitchrist, got it.
Actually, Olympic arms is the Anti-Christ, which leaves DPMS as the Whore of Babylon.:D
buying DPMS is not a guarantee that you will get a piece of crap.
buying an LMT is not a guarantee that you will get a flawless machine.
However, each has STRONG proclivities toward their respective ends of the quality spectrum. Mostly brought about by materials and QC.
product reputations do not materialize out of thin air. are some reputations blown out of proportion? sure.....but they are almost always based in truth, fact and actual occurrences.
buying DPMS is not a guarantee that you will get a piece of crap.
buying an LMT is not a guarantee that you will get a flawless machine.
However, each has STRONG proclivities toward their respective ends of the quality spectrum. Mostly brought about by materials and QC.
product reputations do not materialize out of thin air. are some reputations blown out of proportion? sure.....but they are almost always based in truth, fact and actual occurrences.
That sums it up nicely. Mind if I borrow that for the Springfield Armory M1A/LRB M14 debate? I'll give you full credit. There are likely thousands of uber-reliable DPMS rifles out there, but my guess is there are thousands of DPMS rifles that do not pass muster. Certainly, issues put forth on the Internet can magnify reputation, (for the good and the bad), but enough issues seem to be cropping up to make DPMS worth a second looking over when choosing a rifle to bet your life on...Before I read a single word, I had the same feelings about a recently manufactured RRA Entry I took a look at on the range. It was not close to the experience I had when I handled an early model RRA - even to a laymen like me, it was obvious that RRA had slipped in their build quality - at least on this rifle. Though not an AR-15, sprinkled in between the Springfield Armory bashing threads, I have read about LRB and SEI built M-14 clones that were less than stellar, so it happens - even among the "holy grail".
03humpalot
03-13-08, 12:15
I purchased a DPMS 6.8 M4gery upper a few years ago to see if i liked the CARTRIDGE or not. When i get to the states here in a few weeks im going to shoot the piece of shit with my Noveske upper and throw it in the lake.
You MAY get a rifle that will work for a while but the numbers are against you.
HELL!! dont do that!!! send it to me!!! there are plenty servicable parts in a DPMS rifle!
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