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MH64
08-27-12, 14:15
Am thinking of adding a 357 revolver and lever rifle to our armory for camping and hiking and wondering about recommendations on the 357 revolver?

My wife can shoot a 357 reasonably well, but not a 44. So thats why my choice in 357.

RyanB
08-27-12, 14:24
6" 686 with new sights.

Straight Shooter
08-27-12, 14:34
I absolutely love my 3" SP101. Very accurate, after about 300 or so rounds, plus a good bit of dry fire, the trigger is great.
Very solid built revolver.

Cagemonkey
08-27-12, 18:04
IMHO go with a Ruger S/steel GP100 with a 4" barrel. These pistols are built like tanks and can handle heavy/hot loads repeatedly. Also the grip design absorbs recoil well since the grip encloses the grip frame in rubber.

tpd223
08-27-12, 18:09
Stainless Ruger GP100 4" is a good gun for this role.

So is a S&W pre lock 681 or 686

Frailer
08-27-12, 18:40
If size and weight are an issue, I'd opt for a 3" S&W Model 60-10. If not, I'd probably go for a 4" 7-shot 686.

Nothing at all wrong with a GP-100. I just happen to prefer Smiths.

mkmckinley
08-28-12, 18:38
I'd look for a 4" 686, something pre-MIM pre-lock. However unless you have a lot of experience running a wheel gun under stress a Glock 20 might be worth a look. I love my revolvers but when it comes down to it I shoot a Glock better, which is good, because it's also lighter, holds more rounds, can take a flashlight, and is more resistant to the elements than my revolvers.

goodoleboy
08-28-12, 19:46
I'd look for a 4" 686, something pre-MIM pre-lock. However unless you have a lot of experience running a wheel gun under stress a Glock 20 might be worth a look. I love my revolvers but when it comes down to it I shoot a Glock better, which is good, because it's also lighter, holds more rounds, can take a flashlight, and is more resistant to the elements than my revolvers.

+1

Glock 20 is not a bad option for a backpack gun. The ammo is a little high, but the 10mm is an impressive round. Plus, that's 15+1 compared to 6. If you are familiar with the Glock platform, I would give one of those a try before trying to learn a wheel gun. That being said, the 686 is a Hell of a choice for a wheel gun, if you decide to go that route.

matemike
08-28-12, 19:56
I absolutely love my 6" Ruger GP100 and Marlin 1894C setup.

I have easily taken Texas deer and hogs with each of those guns. Would carry them anywhere but the African brush...

good luck finding a lever action now though. Marlin has discontinued thier line of pistol caliber carbines, and others are hard to come by I understand

http://i436.photobucket.com/albums/qq86/matemike05/IMG_0806.jpg

jmart
08-28-12, 20:58
Are you leaning toward DA or SA?

Are you referring to TX back country or will you and your wife travel to other locales with bigger, toothier critters?

rackham1
08-28-12, 21:26
When is the pre-lock, post-lock distinction for the 686 (what year)?

chadbag
08-28-12, 22:31
My aunt married an Alaskan backwoods homesteader. If you ask then where they live, they will say "8 hours downriver from Eagle."

He wanted a bear gun for when they are out working in the woods. He had me find him a 357 and I ended up finding a good deal on a used GP100 4" stainless.

His saying was that he wanted something he could stick on the bears chest/neck/head/gut (where ever he could) and empty the cylinder...


---

fn1889m
08-29-12, 02:03
If you are hiking, weight matters. The pistol is for carry more than range shooting. Also, a 4 inch is easier to carry than a 6 inch revolver.

My choices for hiking are:
Used S&W 66
New Model Ruger Vaquaro 4 5/8 barrel
Used Ruger Security Six or Service Six

The S&W 686 is a very nice gun, probably the best all round revolver ever made, and it is my woods gun. But it and the Ruger GP100 are both on the heavy side. If you are carrying a pack, sleeping bag and tent, it will make a difference. Not huge, but noticable. Also, look at single actions. Bears don't know the difference between double and single action.

Matt C.
08-29-12, 08:35
For hiking where weight is always a concern I vote for 3" SP101.

ST911
08-29-12, 11:04
What are the threats you're expecting, or needs you need to meet with a fiream, in the areas you're going? Perhaps a modern autoloader that carries easily, with smartly chosen ammunition, that you are already familiar with, will suffice?

WillBrink
08-29-12, 11:31
The S&W 686 is a very nice gun, probably the best all round revolver ever made, and it is my woods gun.

Yes and yes. Do you use different loads when in the woods?

Landpimp
08-29-12, 11:58
packing an all steel wheelgun while hiking can get old pretty fast.

when I go into the woods I typically carry my S&W 386 Night Guard(357mag), its super light and 7 rds and its damn accurate, its one you will be able to carry all the time and as a bonus its a great carry gun.

MH64
08-29-12, 13:33
Texas, New Mexico and Colorado are the states in which the wife and will be in so bear and mountain lion are what we could run into.

Figure the weapon will be more for a sense of security rather than actual need.
But will have something and not needing it will bejust fine. But will still have something.

cobb1873
08-30-12, 00:38
Smith made some model 60's with 5inch barrels recently, that could be light handy and good sight radius. I've not used the new model Ruger black hawks but that is another choice I'm not sure if the grip frames are steel or aluminum so weight might be a consideration.

Alaskapopo
08-30-12, 01:29
Am thinking of adding a 357 revolver and lever rifle to our armory for camping and hiking and wondering about recommendations on the 357 revolver?

My wife can shoot a 357 reasonably well, but not a 44. So thats why my choice in 357.

I would rather download the 44 till she can handle it. But if bears are not a concern it really does not matter what caliber you pick. A Glock 20 with good loads beats the pants off a 357 revolver as a woods gun in my opinion.
Pat

RyanB
08-30-12, 01:56
If you're unlikely to meet a grizzly a 9mm is enough. Black bears can be large too though. The one I shot was 400 pounds.

Alaskapopo
08-30-12, 05:14
If you're unlikely to meet a grizzly a 9mm is enough. Black bears can be large too though. The one I shot was 400 pounds.

Having shot my share of black bears I can tell you a 9mm is not enough to reliably stop a black bear. Nor would I trust any service pistol round.
Pat

Watrdawg
08-30-12, 09:11
GP100 or the 4" 686 can't be beat. Try both if possible and pick what she likes best. I wouldn't go for a single action revolver. The situation, if there is one, will be very stressful and having to work a single action takes a bit more thought. She would be better off with a double action and just having to pull the trigger. A whole lot less to think about doing.

SW-Shooter
08-30-12, 17:35
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z253/dhsgman/DSC01403-1.jpg

Shabazz
08-30-12, 19:26
Those Rugers are flipping heavy. Give me a scandium frame S&W.

SW-Shooter
08-30-12, 19:49
Those Rugers are flipping heavy. Give me a scandium frame S&W.

Go ahead a shoot a heavy .357 load in a light frame, I bet your range session will be a short one.

Straight Shooter
08-30-12, 20:26
Sw-Shooter,
You are damn right! While at the range today with my new G17, I was shooting my 3" SP101 with 125gr. .357 Gold Dots.
Even with the most excellent Trausch grips...I couldnt do more than 30 or so. I got flinching so bad, I stopped halfway thru a cylinder..just said **** IT!!
I cannot IMAGINE firing heavy, "bear-killin loads" in a lightweight revolver.
I AINT doing, thats fo' sho'.

gunnut284
08-31-12, 01:44
I have a stainless 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk .357 to use as a woods gun though I generally just end up with a .22 since I'm generally carrying a centerfire rifle. I have a S&W .44 Mag and think a 4" 629 would be a good choice but mine is a 6.5" and doesn't get carried unless I'm hunting with it. If I was buying something new for the woods role I would probably go with a .44 Mag (the wife can shoot .44 Specials if needed) or a Glock 20SF.

skyugo
08-31-12, 15:11
hows a 3" 357 mag compare to a 4" 9mm?

It seems to me that last time i did any research on the matter 357 didn't really come into its own until you get to a longer barrel...

Alaskapopo
08-31-12, 16:24
hows a 3" 357 mag compare to a 4" 9mm?

It seems to me that last time i did any research on the matter 357 didn't really come into its own until you get to a longer barrel...

Thats not true. There is no particular barrel length where the 357 suddenly starts to perform. It did fine for years in police revovlers with 3 and 4 inch barrels. The 357 mag has more case capacity than the 9mm and with equal barrel lengths will always be faster despite the revolvers cylinder gap. That said the 9mm with good ammo is just fine.
pat

Business_Casual
08-31-12, 20:36
Pat,

I just compared a 125 gr. .357 load to a 180 gr. 40S&W load in Golden Saber on the Remington website.

The 40S&W is one pound of energy shy of the 357 at the muzzle and has more energy at the longer ranges. It leaves the muzzle 65 fps slower, not really much difference there. Seems to me 15 rounds in a lighter package that is similar to a carry gun would make a lot of sense.

And - you don't have the expense of the 10mm round.

I met a DNR guy who put down a couple of black bears with a 40S&W. Do you find it adequate or what do you think? [eh - looks like you already said you don't trust a duty caliber]

tpd223
08-31-12, 20:45
IIRC the 180gr FP FMJ .40 loads have a lot of penetration in gelatin testing, I often thought I'd probably rather have a G22 or M&P than a .357mag if I had to rely on factory ammo.

I do think some of the .357 specialty loads like the stuff from Buffalo Bore would have more penetration though.

I find this interesting as well;
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=67

RyanB
08-31-12, 21:41
Pat,

I just compared a 125 gr. .357 load to a 180 gr. 40S&W load in Golden Saber on the Remington website.

The 40S&W is one pound of energy shy of the 357 at the muzzle and has more energy at the longer ranges. It leaves the muzzle 65 fps slower, not really much difference there. Seems to me 15 rounds in a lighter package that is similar to a carry gun would make a lot of sense.

And - you don't have the expense of the 10mm round.

I met a DNR guy who put down a couple of black bears with a 40S&W. Do you find it adequate or what do you think? [eh - looks like you already said you don't trust a duty caliber]

Your selected .357 load is light.

A 158 at 1500 is more like it.

Alaskapopo
08-31-12, 21:53
Pat,

I just compared a 125 gr. .357 load to a 180 gr. 40S&W load in Golden Saber on the Remington website.

The 40S&W is one pound of energy shy of the 357 at the muzzle and has more energy at the longer ranges. It leaves the muzzle 65 fps slower, not really much difference there. Seems to me 15 rounds in a lighter package that is similar to a carry gun would make a lot of sense.

And - you don't have the expense of the 10mm round.

I met a DNR guy who put down a couple of black bears with a 40S&W. Do you find it adequate or what do you think? [eh - looks like you already said you don't trust a duty caliber]

The 40sw is a lot shy of a full house 357 mag and a full power 10mm. About 200 fps or more. Plus you should not be using JHP rounds if bears are a threat. You want deep penetrating FMJ's or hard cast lead bullets. Bears have been put down with .22 long rifles with a lot of luck however I would not bet my life to it.
Pat

RyanB
08-31-12, 22:00
Having shot my share of black bears I can tell you a 9mm is not enough to reliably stop a black bear. Nor would I trust any service pistol round.
Pat

Wouldn't be my choice in bear country but for the recoils/weight limited it might be a reasonable compromise.

Alaskapopo
08-31-12, 22:20
Wouldn't be my choice in bear country but for the recoils/weight limited it might be a reasonable compromise.
Its better than a sharp stick but I would say either a Glock 20 or a 4 inch 629 makes a better compromise.
Pat

RyanB
09-01-12, 00:54
I've carried both and agree.

Business_Casual
09-01-12, 07:04
Your selected .357 load is light.

A 158 at 1500 is more like it.

I couldn't find anything like that, most I could find was around 1,200 fps. with about 535 f/lb of energy.

BC

montanadave
09-01-12, 09:24
I've got a SP101 which I had tuned up by Gemini Customs which is a heck of a nice little gun. But if I'm wandering around in bear country I take the 4" Redhawk with some 300gr. Buffalo Bore loads.

Once that bear gets done gnawing on me, I want to make damn sure I put myself out of my misery with one shot!

Another helpful hint is to file the rough edges of the front sight so it doesn't hurt as bad when the bear shoves it up your ass. :laugh:

WillBrink
09-01-12, 10:15
Go ahead a shoot a heavy .357 load in a light frame, I bet your range session will be a short one.

Been there done that. Sold the scandium framed fancy gun, kept the "heavy" 4" 686.

fn1889m
09-01-12, 23:21
Yes and yes. Do you use different loads when in the woods?

I use FMJ RN, and not hollow point. But I live in the lower 48. I have seen a number of black bear, but they have always ran as soon as they saw me. If you shoot a full size grizzly with a .357, I have read that they will die, eventually, maybe the next day. Maybe. But not soon enough to do you any good.

On the other hand, I found a guy tied to a tree one morning. He had been held up at gunpoint at a National Park trail head. People are a bigger threat than any other animal.

As for the 686, I have two - one 686-1, all original, nice gun. The other 686-3 was all beat up, had some kind of black finish over stainless steel that looked very bad, etc. I had it bead blasted and hard chrome plated. It is a bit heavy, but it has the scars to be a working gun. The other is an old model Ruger Vaquaro, same principle. The more honest wear it gets, the better it looks. Those are my two non-safe queens, and in a way, the best looking. Like patina on old silver.

WillBrink
09-02-12, 07:36
I use FMJ RN, and not hollow point. But I live in the lower 48. I have seen a number of black bear, but they have always ran as soon as they saw me. If you shoot a full size grizzly with a .357, I have read that they will die, eventually, maybe the next day. Maybe. But not soon enough to do you any good.

On the other hand, I found a guy tied to a tree one morning. He had been held up at gunpoint at a National Park trail head. People are a bigger threat than any other animal.

As for the 686, I have two - one 686-1, all original, nice gun. The other 686-3 was all beat up, had some kind of black finish over stainless steel that looked very bad, etc. I had it bead blasted and hard chrome plated. It is a bit heavy, but it has the scars to be a working gun. The other is an old model Ruger Vaquaro, same principle. The more honest wear it gets, the better it looks. Those are my two non-safe queens, and in a way, the best looking. Like patina on old silver.

Regardless of where I am, I know my chances of attack from 2 leg varmints higher than those on 4 legs.

Landpimp
09-02-12, 10:32
its not allot of fun, but I have been shooting a 340PD(12oz 357mag) for years with 357mag, the 386 NG is twice the weight.......and if you need to use it.......your not going to notice the pain. Or you could go to the 327NG its a bit heavier but its a N frame


Go ahead a shoot a heavy .357 load in a light frame, I bet your range session will be a short one.

RFB
09-02-12, 15:02
I live in an environment with quite a bit of variety; not as dangerous as AK but we have our share of wolves, cougar, black bear (which are more dangerous than some people think), etc.

My wife runs a GP100 and I a S&W model 28 with these

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

as sidearms whenever we go out of the house for walking to the barn, shop or garage. Hiking becomes rifle duty.

SteveS
09-02-12, 16:04
The nice thing about a revolver over a semi is that you do not have brass scattered all over. Leave no trace IMO is especially important in well used areas.

kingsford
09-03-12, 19:42
A model 60 with a 3 " barrel and a marlin 94 lever with 158 grain round nose lead bullets should do the trick for you. the model 60 is lighter has an adjustable rear sight a raised front sight and with a Houg one grip full power loads will be very manageable. A wheel gun will be more tolerant of the woods, dust and dirt then a semi auto. Shot placement is the key, close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.

Heavy Metal
09-03-12, 20:06
Having shot my share of black bears I can tell you a 9mm is not enough to reliably stop a black bear. Nor would I trust any service pistol round.
Pat

Fortunately for me, my Blackies are generally a good bit smaller.

Heavy Metal
09-03-12, 20:08
Don't compare GA Black Bears with Alaska Black Bears.



Pat,

I just compared a 125 gr. .357 load to a 180 gr. 40S&W load in Golden Saber on the Remington website.

The 40S&W is one pound of energy shy of the 357 at the muzzle and has more energy at the longer ranges. It leaves the muzzle 65 fps slower, not really much difference there. Seems to me 15 rounds in a lighter package that is similar to a carry gun would make a lot of sense.

And - you don't have the expense of the 10mm round.

I met a DNR guy who put down a couple of black bears with a 40S&W. Do you find it adequate or what do you think? [eh - looks like you already said you don't trust a duty caliber]

Alaskapopo
09-03-12, 20:08
A model 60 with a 3 " barrel and a marlin 94 lever with 158 grain round nose lead bullets should do the trick for you. the model 60 is lighter has an adjustable rear sight a raised front sight and with a Houg one grip full power loads will be very manageable. A wheel gun will be more tolerant of the woods, dust and dirt then a semi auto. Shot placement is the key, close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades.

I would disagree. A 3 inch Barrel J frame is not a a good woods gun for defense against dangerous animals. People fine in a pinch. Critters no way in hell. And actually a service auto is more tolerant to abuse than a revolver.
Pat

francis
09-03-12, 20:10
My hiking gun is a Ruger Security six .357 of 1978 vintage. Its stainless.

Business_Casual
09-04-12, 20:25
Don't compare GA Black Bears with Alaska Black Bears.

They weren't GA black bears, but thank you. You have a nice day, now.

Watrdawg
09-05-12, 09:46
Just a side note. Our coastal black bears here in NC will put many Grizzlies to shame. State record and world record black bear is 880lbs. A 647 pounder shot last year was only the 17th largest bear shot here.

RWK
09-05-12, 10:21
Don't compare GA Black Bears with Alaska Black Bears.

East coast black bears can easily tip the scales at over 600 lbs. In addition to what Watrdawg posted about the ones in NC, many other states have also seen their share of near-record black bears. The carcass of a black bear that was found in UT in 1975 was so big that it was sent to the Smithsonian to verify that it was in fact a black bear.

If you go anywhere there are bears, you have a chance of encountering a big one. I used to be of the opinion that a .357 Magnum was enough for a black bear-defense sidearm. As I've learned more, I've since changed my mind and acquired a S&W 629 for a camp gun in bear country. This one (http://lh5.ggpht.com/-EdBm3JOlxnQ/TLhTmduHAKI/AAAAAAAAEDs/LyzPu6v6utw/s1024/100_2731.JPG) is mine.

MH64
09-05-12, 22:28
So then maybe a 10mm Glock for more power and lighter weight?

Heavy Metal
09-05-12, 23:00
I called a local DNR Officer I have worked with before and asked him about Black Bear sizes in Southern WV and he said about 350lbs is the biggest I would expect to encounter wth most much smaller.

RWK
09-05-12, 23:56
I called a local DNR Officer I have worked with before and asked him about Black Bear sizes in Southern WV and he said about 350lbs is the biggest I would expect to encounter wth most much smaller.

Did he happen to also mention that black bears weighing over 500 lbs. have been harvested in WV? One taken last year was close to 600 lbs.

RWK
09-06-12, 00:17
So then maybe a 10mm Glock for more power and lighter weight?

The 10mm and .357 Magnum both fall into the same general category for suitability for various types/sizes of game.

Alaskapopo
09-06-12, 00:30
The 10mm and .357 Magnum both fall into the same general category for suitability for various types/sizes of game.

Thats true but the 10mm does have much more magazine capacity which is an plus.
Pat

Heavy Metal
09-06-12, 11:14
Did he happen to also mention that black bears weighing over 500 lbs. have been harvested in WV? One taken last year was close to 600 lbs.

He mentioned those were damn rare.

The most fearsome thing I ever encountered hiking was an Angus Bull that easily topped 1000lbs. Fortunately, it was not in an agressive state.

Heavy Metal
09-06-12, 11:15
Thats true but the 10mm does have much more magazine capacity which is an plus.
Pat

....and the same manual of arms and the same trigger as every other Glock too.

RWK
09-06-12, 12:55
Thats true but the 10mm does have much more magazine capacity which is an plus.

For those multiple-bear attacks where one has to bust out an El Presidente...? :sarcastic:

skyugo
09-07-12, 03:16
Thats not true. There is no particular barrel length where the 357 suddenly starts to perform. It did fine for years in police revovlers with 3 and 4 inch barrels. The 357 mag has more case capacity than the 9mm and with equal barrel lengths will always be faster despite the revolvers cylinder gap. That said the 9mm with good ammo is just fine.
pat

The maximum pressure for a 357 mag is lower than a 9mm. (37500 vs 45000 i believe) Not that it suddenly starts to perform, but the 9mm's incremental velocity gain in barrels longer than ~4" seems to drop off while 357 is still cooking out of 6+ inch barrels.

The extra case capacity lets you load more slow burning powder which can achieve a higher velocity, but you're still limited to the max saami pressure.

RyanB
09-07-12, 03:24
9mm is 35k ish. 10mm is 37.5k.

Alaskapopo
09-07-12, 04:52
The maximum pressure for a 357 mag is lower than a 9mm. (37500 vs 45000 i believe) Not that it suddenly starts to perform, but the 9mm's incremental velocity gain in barrels longer than ~4" seems to drop off while 357 is still cooking out of 6+ inch barrels.

The extra case capacity lets you load more slow burning powder which can achieve a higher velocity, but you're still limited to the max saami pressure.

9mm and the .357 are in the same pressure range 35000 cup. Now its true with the .357 you can use slow burning powders and get more velocity from longer barrels.
Pat

CobraBG
09-07-12, 13:05
I like my Winchester Model 94 Trapper in .44 Magnum and Ruger Vaquero in .44 Magnum. I know the OP said no to the .44, but I like the combo... a compact lever action carbine and a dependable single action revolver using the same ammo. When I am not bringing the rifle I bring my Glock 21SF instead of the Vaquero.

Alaskapopo
09-07-12, 13:11
I like my Winchester Model 94 Trapper in .44 Magnum and Ruger Vaquero in .44 Magnum. I know the OP said no to the .44, but I like the combo... a compact lever action carbine and a dependable single action revolver using the same ammo. When I am not bringing the rifle I bring my Glock 21SF instead of the Vaquero.

A single action is a poor choice for a self defense revolver in the woods. The main reason being its very slow and difficult to fire one handed while your being mauled. Its also very slow to reload. Leave the single actions for Cowboy Action Shooting.
Pat

CobraBG
09-07-12, 16:43
A single action is a poor choice for a self defense revolver in the woods. The main reason being its very slow and difficult to fire one handed while your being mauled. Its also very slow to reload. Leave the single actions for Cowboy Action Shooting.
Pat

You are correct sir. That is exactly why I have been carrying my 21SF more often. I am hoping to get a Ruger Redhawk in .44 Magnum or maybe a S&W 629. Just haven't yet and the Vaquero is the only .44 Magnum revolver I have for now. I really like the 94 Trapper and like to carry something that uses the same ammo.

RWK
09-08-12, 11:42
When I am not bringing the rifle I bring my Glock 21SF instead of the Vaquero.

Why would you downgrade your handgun when not carrying a rifle? I'm not following the logic...:confused:

tpd223
09-08-12, 12:10
Why would you downgrade your handgun when not carrying a rifle? I'm not following the logic...:confused:

With the right ammo a .45acp is pushing the type of penetration you'd see from a standard old school .45Colt.

Elmer Keith wrote at length about bullets of this size/weight/velocity range shooting clean through things like elk.

Nothing to sneeze at if you pick your bullet well.

CobraBG
09-08-12, 17:17
Why would you downgrade your handgun when not carrying a rifle? I'm not following the logic...:confused:

I do understand your question and maybe I'm not making a very smart choice. I like to rely on the rifle first and the Vaquero is thought to be a back up to the rifle if things get close. As has been pointed out, up close the Vaquero may be a little slower to fire since it is single action and slow to reload. Because of that when carrying a handgun only I choose the 21SF. I load it with 185 grn. JHP and feel that it offers acceptable stopping power, plus with 13 +1 and 2 extra mags I feel prepared.

A few years ago I was stupid and traded my S&W 629 Mountain Gun... I have regretted it ever since.:sad: I hope to be able to replace it soon.

Alaskapopo
09-08-12, 17:30
I do understand your question and maybe I'm not making a very smart choice. I like to rely on the rifle first and the Vaquero is thought to be a back up to the rifle if things get close. As has been pointed out, up close the Vaquero may be a little slower to fire since it is single action and slow to reload. Because of that when carrying a handgun only I choose the 21SF. I load it with 185 grn. JHP and feel that it offers acceptable stopping power, plus with 13 +1 and 2 extra mags I feel prepared.

A few years ago I was stupid and traded my S&W 629 Mountain Gun... I have regretted it ever since.:sad: I hope to be able to replace it soon.

If your worried about bears don't use a 45 acp with JHP's they will not penetrate enough. Even ball in 45 acp is not really enough unless you had a 45 super conversion on your gun.
Pat

kingsford
09-09-12, 22:37
Whatever gun you choose to carry in the woods and if a bears get aggressive you are going to have to use well places shots. There is a lot of bone to get threw for a head shot, Bears have a lot of muscle bones mass to get threw for a full on chest or shoulder shots so you are going to need big heavy hard case bullets to get through the bone and muscle to do any organ damage. Alaskapoop should know that. And if in bear country I would be carrying bear spray as my first line of defense with a rifle or handgun as a last resort. a single action pistol can be fired quickly and accurately, they have fought wars and gone hunting and done their job well long before the glock came along. Having a Clip with 17 round lends it's self to the spray and pray shooting while a 6 shoot revelover teachs shot placement. I live in an area with small black bear, lucky to get over 500 lbs. Much of my information comes from guys who have hunted big black and brown bears. The OP was talking about hiking right not hunting right?

Alaskapopo
09-10-12, 00:22
Whatever gun you choose to carry in the woods and if a bears get aggressive you are going to have to use well places shots. There is a lot of bone to get threw for a head shot, Bears have a lot of muscle bones mass to get threw for a full on chest or shoulder shots so you are going to need big heavy hard case bullets to get through the bone and muscle to do any organ damage. Alaskapoop should know that. And if in bear country I would be carrying bear spray as my first line of defense with a rifle or handgun as a last resort. a single action pistol can be fired quickly and accurately, they have fought wars and gone hunting and done their job well long before the glock came along. Having a Clip with 17 round lends it's self to the spray and pray shooting while a 6 shoot revelover teachs shot placement. I live in an area with small black bear, lucky to get over 500 lbs. Much of my information comes from guys who have hunted big black and brown bears. The OP was talking about hiking right not hunting right?

My biggest problem with the single action is the worst case scenario with the bear having you down and mauling you. Its going to be a lot harder to cock the hammer and fire vs a double action. Also having more ammo does not mean you spray and pray it just gives you more of a chance to get that round into the vitals with well placed but rapid fire. I can say that having more ammo is better. When I had a black bear charge me from less than 20 feet I ran my 870 dry. Luckily I had done enough damage at that point to stop its charge but it was still alive and limping past me, A Trooper who was backing me up was able to shot it in the spine and kill it. That click sound was not a good one.

A 10mm will penetrate the skull of a brown bear. It does not have as much power as the big bore revolvers however. I think its a toss up between rate of fire and portability vs raw power. As for spray its better than nothing but having used it on people and having it fail at times I would not rely on it for bear. I am still on the fence between the Glock 20 with hot FMJ loads and my 5 shot Bowen Redhawk.
Pat

MH64
09-10-12, 02:20
For my situation the single action would not be a good option.
The wife has no experience with single action revolvers and do not want to throw that into the mix.

We will try some 357 revolvers and will give the Glock 20SF/21SF a try and see how those fit/feel.

Possibly nowleaning more towards the Glock as it would be alot lighter and the wife has alot of experience with semi autos.

Once again you guys have provided alot of good food for thought.
Thanks

Heavy Metal
09-10-12, 10:26
Ran into a Black Bear I estimate to have been around 200lbs Wednesday while doing an evening hike.

Popped out of the woods and onto the road. He was on the road. He was about 15 feet from me. Once he saw me, he hauled ass with a vengance. I bet he didn't stand still for more than three seconds.

Beat Trash
09-10-12, 14:01
What kind of loads are recommended for those using a Glock 20? How does the recoil of the Glock 20 using these loads compare to a 4" model 686 using 158 gr loads.

My bear concerns are centered around black bears in the Smokey Mountains.

Though I'm much more concerned about encountering a two legged threat while on vacation and hiking in the woods.

RyanB
09-10-12, 14:07
200-230gr hard cast at 1100-1300 fps. Recoil is lighter than .357.

Beat Trash
09-10-12, 15:08
Thanks.

SW-Shooter
09-10-12, 15:52
For my situation the single action would not be a good option.
The wife has no experience with single action revolvers and do not want to throw that into the mix.

We will try some 357 revolvers and will give the Glock 20SF/21SF a try and see how those fit/feel.

Possibly nowleaning more towards the Glock as it would be alot lighter and the wife has alot of experience with semi autos.

Once again you guys have provided alot of good food for thought.
Thanks


People say Caribou/Elk cannot be taken with a .223 but I know for a fact that they can be taken with one shot, and drop dead right there.

I also know that .45 ACP has also taken brown and black bear, so don't let anyone try and sell you on that caliber not being able to get the job done.

tpd223
09-10-12, 15:53
What kind of loads are recommended for those using a Glock 20? How does the recoil of the Glock 20 using these loads compare to a 4" model 686 using 158 gr loads.

My bear concerns are centered around black bears in the Smokey Mountains.

Though I'm much more concerned about encountering a two legged threat while on vacation and hiking in the woods.

Loads such as what you might want are something like this;
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=24

I have seen G20s start to have fails-to-feed problems when running the really heavy loads, similar to what many people see when running a G22 with a light mounted.
Same issue, excessive slide velocity.

ericb
09-10-12, 17:54
I carry a 4" model 19 combat magnum with 158 grain LSWCHP. Big enough to take care of any critters in the lower southwest. I highly doubt if I have a bear about to eat me that recoil is going to be the first thing on my mind.

If I were to venture up north where the bears are a lot bigger, I would carry a .308 :sarcastic: or at the very least one of those .454 and bigger hand cannons.

DMR
09-11-12, 07:47
Does anyone have any experance using the Hornady Leverlution (http://m.hornady.com/assets/files/sell-sheets/2009/44_Mag-357_Mag.pdf) ammo out of their revolvers?

RWK
09-11-12, 11:57
I also know that .45 ACP has also taken brown and black bear, so don't let anyone try and sell you on that caliber not being able to get the job done.

There's a tremendous difference between hunting and defense shootings. These caliber arguments are becoming as tedious as the ".22 LR for personal defense" topics.

youngAR
09-11-12, 21:50
Ruger GP100. An excellent choice would be the Wiley Clapp model.

Jake'sDad
09-22-12, 01:04
With the right ammo a .45acp is pushing the type of penetration you'd see from a standard old school .45Colt.

Elmer Keith wrote at length about bullets of this size/weight/velocity range shooting clean through things like elk.

Nothing to sneeze at if you pick your bullet well.

If your gun will shoot it, this one is a dilly...

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214

Alaskapopo
09-22-12, 02:25
People say Caribou/Elk cannot be taken with a .223 but I know for a fact that they can be taken with one shot, and drop dead right there.

I also know that .45 ACP has also taken brown and black bear, so don't let anyone try and sell you on that caliber not being able to get the job done.

The 45 is not up to the task. Sure you can get lucky. Bears have been killed with 22 long rifles and sharpened speers but its not a good idea. I personally have takena bear with a 5.56 with 75 grain Tap it was a head shot but I used it only because the shotguns loaded with slugs were not up to the shot placement needed at that time.

People have killed dangerious animals with bows but I would not want to shoot a charging bear with one.

kingsford
09-28-12, 00:50
for a revolver forum there sure was a lot talk about glock and semi autos. A good 357 like a 686 with seven shots and a heavy hard case bullet would be a good choice as back up for the OP rifle loaded with the same round.

Alaskapopo
09-28-12, 02:07
for a revolver forum there sure was a lot talk about glock and semi autos. A good 357 like a 686 with seven shots and a heavy hard case bullet would be a good choice as back up for the OP rifle loaded with the same round.

A .357 mag in a rifle or a handgun is a poor choice if bears are in the area.
Pat

DeltaSierra
09-28-12, 20:20
A .357 mag in a rifle or a handgun is a poor choice if bears are in the area.
Pat

yah...

chadbag
09-29-12, 00:17
A .357 mag in a rifle or a handgun is a poor choice if bears are in the area.
Pat

My uncle is an Alaskan homesteader 8 hours downriver from Eagle out in the middle of no where. He chose a 357 for his sidearm when he is out an about tending traps or the fish wheel or whatever else he does out in the middle of no where.


--

Alaskapopo
09-29-12, 00:59
My uncle is an Alaskan homesteader 8 hours downriver from Eagle out in the middle of no where. He chose a 357 for his sidearm when he is out an about tending traps or the fish wheel or whatever else he does out in the middle of no where.


--

Trapping is generally done in the winter months when bears are hibernating and in fact a lot of trappers use .22 pistols just to kill any animals in their traps that may still be alive. A .357 is not a good bear defense round. In fact no handgun really is but a .357 is not a good choice.
Pat

Vash1023
09-29-12, 01:15
i agree, if its gonna be for possible defense in the bush, get a 454 or a 500.

chadbag
09-29-12, 10:41
Trapping is generally done in the winter months when bears are hibernating and in fact a lot of trappers use .22 pistols just to kill any animals in their traps that may still be alive. A .357 is not a good bear defense round. In fact no handgun really is but a .357 is not a good choice.
Pat

I am not saying he thinks it the ideal bear killer. But it is what he chose, and he lives out in the middle of no-where 24/7x365. And not just for winter activities either. Fish wheel, hunting, gardening, and whatever else he does. They are legally subsistence homesteaders. I am not even sure they trap anymore.

I don't think he is under any illusions. He has been living out in the bush of Alaska for probably 35-40 years. He should be in his 60s now (he is not my blood uncle -- he married my aunt some 20 or 25 years ago after his first wife died of cancer and he has been living out in the bush since sometime in his 20s I think, or early 30s IIRC). He made the joke of being eaten by a bear and in the midst of that process sticking the gun in the belly of the bear and firing off all 6.

ETA: in practical terms, he has killed a lot of bears, but they also usually have a 30-30 or other rifle nearby and I think their bear they have killed aren't grizzly and were taken with the rifle. The 357 is for last ditch efforts. ETA^2: Actually they have also killed Grizzly as my aunt showed me an individual bear claw (an individual digit and nail) from a grizzly that they had killed and compared it to a bunch of black bear individual black bear claws



--

Sarge45
10-07-12, 00:27
Does anyone have any experance using the Hornady Leverlution (http://m.hornady.com/assets/files/sell-sheets/2009/44_Mag-357_Mag.pdf) ammo out of their revolvers?

Yes. And in a 5" 629 Classic they are HOT.

Jack-O
10-07-12, 12:40
Having shot my share of black bears I can tell you a 9mm is not enough to reliably stop a black bear. Nor would I trust any service pistol round.
Pat


yes, but those were not internet bears...:rolleyes:

SquarePizza
10-11-12, 21:53
My main carry gun when I am not worried about printing is a 3" 686+. But I can tell you, that carrying this weekend on a 8 mile hike, the weight got old fast. Even running a decent holster, I was constantly fidgeting with it to make it comfy.

Combined with carrying a backpack for food and water, I wished I had carried my detective special or 22mag in a drop holster instead.

Broadway
10-30-12, 15:37
Am thinking of adding a 357 revolver and lever rifle to our armory for camping and hiking and wondering about recommendations on the 357 revolver?

My wife can shoot a 357 reasonably well, but not a 44. So thats why my choice in 357.

Getting back to the original question (top page 1) I would say yes on the revolver with the right ammunition choice (for the reason you stated) and no for the lever action rifle. First, using a pistol caliber for protection against a large predator puts you way behind the power curve to begin with. For a rifle even a common 30-30 would put you well up the ladder thus affording you a better chance of survival.

As for choosing the pistol where I live we have black bear, large cats, coyotes, and a growing number of wild dogs hunting in packs. I carry with idea being that I have to defeat a large, heavily muscled predator with a significant skeletal structure who has never watched a TV shooting.

Personal considerations aside, the laws of physics will always apply. Choose a barrel length that actually allows the chosen caliber to perform effectively (fully burn powder/produce velocity)and a bullet that will be effective against the perceived threat.

Balance your comfort against those factors and choose accordingly. Being in predator country is akin to a two way range. The realities are different and judgements can be harsh.

groot
10-31-12, 09:55
4 5/8" SAA or equivalent in. 357mag or. 38-40 for an adrenaline rush...

GunnutAF
12-06-12, 00:33
Buisness Casual
Here you go!:D Kind of makes the Short and Weak 40 just that weak!:D

357 Mag
158 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon H4227 .357" 1.580" 14.5 1402 34,600 CUP 16.0 1520 42,600 CUP

158 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Lil'Gun .357" 1.580" 16.0 1504 24,100 CUP 18.0 1577 25,800 CUP

158 GR. HDY XTP Winchester 296 .357" 1.580" 15.0 1418 28,600 CUP 16.7 1591 40,700 CUP

And when you match the short and weak grain fo grain even weaker!:dance3:
357 mag
180 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon Lil'Gun .357" 1.575" 13.0 1279 27,500 CUP 15.0 1422 34,500 CUP
40 S&W
180 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon Longshot .400" 1.125" 6.5 1009 25,000 PSI 8.0 1159 32,300 PSI

JonInWA
12-06-12, 12:26
In a .357 Magnum revolver, my personal choice/recommendation is for the Ruger revolvers. A good compromise regarding weight, durability and usability for both the original poster and his wife woud be a Ruger Security Six in stainless steel. My personal one, like that mentioned earlier, is a 1978 vintage 4" with a Millett Orange Bar front sight and a set of Trausch TJ84R grips (made by Trausch for a round-butt Speed and/or Service Six, but easily and happily modified by Jacques Trausch for the square-butt Security Six (he also modified the left grip to make it more amenable for speedloaders). Here's a link to the Trausch website: (click on the "Menu" icon in the upper left to accesss a drop-down leading to the "Grips" selector)
http://www.trausch.com/form/accueilA.htm

And some images of my Security Six:

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Ruger%20Security%20Six/DSCN1028.jpg

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Ruger%20Security%20Six/DSCN1029.jpg

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Ruger%20Security%20Six/DSCN1030.jpg

For concealed carry I have a Blade-Tech IWB kydex holster; for wilderness use, I have a Bianchi UM84R flap holster (the flap is removable if desired), a Hunter traditional leather holster, and the pictured reproduction of a WWII Naval aviator's shoulder holster (by Pacific Canvas and Leather).

A GP100 is a great choice as well, albeit a bit heavier, with the attendant pros and cons of the additional weight. Mine has been extensively reworked by a GP100 expert, and also has the Millet Orange Bar front sight, a MIllett adjustable rear sight, and usually wears the smaller Ruger grip that Ruger used as OEM issue for their fixed-sight GP100s. For carry I have a Kramer horsehide IWB holster, and also the previously mentioned Bianchi UM84R.

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Ruger%20GP100/DSCN1287.jpg

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Ruger%20GP100/DSCN1289.jpg

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Ruger%20GP100/DSCN1290.jpg

As others have mentioned, a Glock would also be very high on my list for wilderness carry, due to their light weight, imperviousness to weather, and ease of instinctive use. While I don't have a G20 in 10mm (which would be a great choice), I'd probably go to my G21 in .45 ACP or G34 in 9mm, loaded with Winchester 127 gr +P+ rounds to take advantage of the velocity derivable from the longer barrel in the G34.

Best, Jon

GunnutAF
12-06-12, 17:09
JonInWA
I've been carrying my GP100 6" around for the last couple days, find it very easily carried. I fact I feel it's very comfortable and don't even notice it at all! I can OC here so just a hoslter on the hip is the way it will be carried. I have a good leather hip hoslter coming right now it's a nylon rig. I haven't try it in my shoulder rig yet.:D

Broadway
12-06-12, 20:28
There's a tremendous difference between hunting and defense shootings. These caliber arguments are becoming as tedious as the ".22 LR for personal defense" topics.

I could not agree more. In law enforcement we would all be carrying rifles if we knew there was an impending gunfight around the corner. We use pistols strictly due to the fact that they are easily carried on our belts....period. Hunting is about lying in ambush for a prey that does not know we are their normally. We get to pick our shot and often times a sub par caliber is effective due strictly to shot placement.

Defensive shooting against a dangerous adversary (animal or human) is completely different. It has often surprised us, is moving or attacking, and not making a perfect shot means more then a maimed animal running off to die in the brush (.223 for elk). Not stopping the attack means you or possibly a loved one are about to be that maimed animal left to die in the brush so choose your firearms accordingly.

GunnutAF
12-06-12, 23:46
Broadway
So true! Where I live we have Griz (Eastern Idaho) , Black bear, Cougar, and wolves. And all four would be on you before you ever heard them if they wanted too. When in there home I usually carry a rifle the very min is a pistol and it's normally a 357 mag with hardcast reloads which will zip through all even the very biggest of them. :D When in Griz country my Rossi '92 454 Casull usually gets the nod!:)

Rockchuck
12-14-12, 14:20
packing an all steel wheelgun while hiking can get old pretty fast.

If packing an extra 2 - 2.5 pounds gets old that fast, I recommend a bit more exercise than lifting 12 ounces at a time. I carry an SP101 around in my back pocket on the farm and don't even notice the extra weight. Out hiking I use a Wilderness Safepacker holster that fits on the waist belt of my backpack. It carries well enough that I can't tell it's there.

Jake'sDad
12-15-12, 10:49
Smith made some model 60's with 5inch barrels recently, that could be light handy and good sight radius. I've not used the new model Ruger black hawks but that is another choice I'm not sure if the grip frames are steel or aluminum so weight might be a consideration.

They're steel, but the gun is still only a little over 25 ounces. Not bad for a 5" barrel gun.

Jake'sDad
12-15-12, 11:35
If packing an extra 2 - 2.5 pounds gets old that fast, I recommend a bit more exercise than lifting 12 ounces at a time.

I'm 6-4 and not exactly known as a weakling, and I prefer lightweight guns for woods carry as well.

HKGuns
12-18-12, 19:17
This is what I bring with me when .357 is the right medicine.

http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s3/v25/p1249019476-4.jpg

When larger medicine is in order I pack this one in a Dirty Harry style under the arm pit holster.

http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s1/v54/p1076973608-5.jpg