View Full Version : Bren Ten revived and improved...by Vltor
militarymoron
01-31-08, 08:29
here's a first look/preview of Vltor's new Fortis pistol project. more info at SHOT.
http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/fortis.html
Robb Jensen
01-31-08, 08:31
Damn cool ! :D
I always get excited when I see MM has started a new thread... :D
I wanted one of these back in the 80's, I hope this comes to pass.
Hopefully, they learned and will have magazines available and at a reasonable price.
militarymoron
01-31-08, 09:31
Hopefully, they learned and will have magazines available and at a reasonable price.
it's vltor, not the original company. :)
they'll have the magazines covered.
you know...when the Fortis comes out, someone will HAVE to shoot IDPA with it in a white suit, pastel t-shirt and no socks with his loafers.
you know...when the Fortis comes out, someone will HAVE to shoot IDPA with it in a white suit, pastel t-shirt and no socks with his loafers.
Sweet
I've always liked the looks of the original Bren Ten. Would love to see a small frame full sized version in 9mm.....If not I'll have to settle on a .45 acp (I'm sure that will become available)
it's vltor, not the original company. :)
they'll have the magazines covered.
you know...when the Fortis comes out, someone will HAVE to shoot IDPA with it in a white suit, pastel t-shirt and no socks with his loafers.
Now that would be some funny stuff right there. :D
it's vltor, not the original company. :)
they'll have the magazines covered.
you know...when the Fortis comes out, someone will HAVE to shoot IDPA with it in a white suit, pastel t-shirt and no socks with his loafers.
I'd have to try it. :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/scb.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/scb2.jpg
...and a toothbrush in his pocket.
Is 10mm making a comeback Im not aware of?
Is 10mm making a comeback Im not aware of?
Not yet, but after Shot Show...
;)
militarymoron
01-31-08, 10:48
other calibers will be available...
I actually got to handle Col. Cooper's Bren. Talk about a double whammy - checking out the Bren, AND it was the Colonels personal weapon! The Bren fit my hand like the proverbial glove.
jm
PS - And yes, I actually saw a Glock in his arms room!!!!! :)
Not yet, but after Shot Show...
;)
And this will do what? Make 10mm ammo cheaper and more readily available in quantity in most places?
RAM Engineer
01-31-08, 11:26
It's too early for an April fools day joke...
No...wait...
really?
other calibers will be available...
GOOD!
Jay Cunningham
01-31-08, 12:46
Could one of you fine pistol enthusiasts (and apparently Miami Vice fans) please let me in on the real reason that one might be filled with enthusiasm over this news? I mean the technical aspect. Because I am not seeing it.
Not trying to piss in Wheaties, but there's obviously something over my head here.
Robb Jensen
01-31-08, 12:49
Could one of you fine pistol enthusiasts (and apparently Miami Vice fans) please let me in on the real reason that one might be filled with enthusiasm over this news? I mean the technical aspect. Because I am not seeing it.
Not trying to piss in Wheaties, but there's obviously something over my head here.
Dude don't you know, chicks just dig Sonny Crockett and 10 mms! ;)
you know...when the Fortis comes out, someone will HAVE to shoot IDPA with it in a white suit, pastel t-shirt and no socks with his loafers.
You guys sponsor me with the gun, ammo, and suit and I'll do it ALL SEASON LONG.
I'd even shoot some sanctioned matches that way.
Could one of you fine pistol enthusiasts (and apparently Miami Vice fans) please let me in on the real reason that one might be filled with enthusiasm over this news? I mean the technical aspect. Because I am not seeing it.
Not trying to piss in Wheaties, but there's obviously something over my head here.
I tend to agree. I mean... it's not like this pistol is going to be cheap... There's just no mathematical way it could be. And I wonder if they'll be able to work out the bugs that Bren never quite did.
John_Wayne777
01-31-08, 12:58
I knew I hung on to those wicker shoes for a reason!
PS - And yes, I actually saw a Glock in his arms room!!!!! :)
Was he using it to prop the door open?
This is pretty cool news. I loved MV when I was younger. I actually bought a S&W 645 because Crockett used it. And if Crockett used it, it must be good.
I love that even the .45acp blank conversion that they filmed with would often jam up! You could see it in the final takes from time to time.
I wanted one of these back in the 80's, I hope this comes to pass.
So, Mr. Sonny Crocket?
As one who was only a few #s away from having theirs built before D&D closed their doors I am excited about this. Looks like they are leaving off the cross bolt safety which I like, thought that looked stupid and would have never used it.
Not trying to piss in Wheaties, but there's obviously something over my head here.
Or not ... :cool:
The 10mm is my favorite auto round and another 10mm is always a good thing. I wouldn't mind having one to compliment my Glock 20.
Good move Vltor!
The CZ-75 is an excellent design and the Bren - 10 was a cool execution of the design (it was a CZ-75 clone).
We are all too familiar with the clones of Colt's Model of 1911 and they are all just called "1911"
Unfortunately, many folks don't realize that the CZ is almost as widely copied even though it did not exist before 1975.
CZ-75 copies made or sold by US companies include:
-Dornaus and Dixon Bren Ten
-Colt Z-40 (a Czech CZ with Colt markings)
-Springfield Armory P-9 (an Italian Tanfoglio with Springfield markings)
-Armalite AR-24 (a turkish Huglu with Armalite markings)
But the clones also include:
JSL(Hereford) Ltd Spitfire (UK)
IMI Jericho 941 (Israel but cast by Tanfoglio)
ITM AT-88 (Solothurn, Switzerland)
Tanfoglio TZ-75, T-90, and T-95 (Italy)
Norinco NZ-75 (China)
Sphinx M2000 (Switzerland)
Springfield P9 (Italy)
Sarsilmaz M2000 (Turkey)
Renato Gamba G90 (?)
EAA Witness Elite Gold (Italy)
Canik55 Pirhana, Shark (?)
BUL-Transmark Storm (Israel)
Rock Island/Armscor 9mm (Philippines)
I am sure there are others, including several Russian derivatives, and some domestic S.American copies from either Chile, Brazil or Argentina.
Robb Jensen
01-31-08, 14:37
Doug,
Now if it would just make us shoot like Eric Grauffel ! :D That would be cool.
At least its something other than ANOTHER 1911!
Name's Burnett... Sonny Burnett....
BAM BAM BAM!!!
Miami 3, Druggies 0
I love that show. I am curious how much they are going to be.
Name's Burnett... Sonny Burnett....
BAM BAM BAM!!!
Miami 3, Druggies 0
I love that show. I am curious how much they are going to be.
Crocket, Sonny Crocket :p
I think Burnett was one of his under cover names.
For those who missed the introduction of the original Bren 10, the story goes that Jeff Cooper liked the CZ75 platform but not the minor caliber. So when the engineers at D&D designed their pistol, they based it on the CZ but gave it the then new 10mm caliber for better punch. So it's basically a product improved CZ75 on steroid. Cooper approved it and the pistols had the Gunsite logo on them. The gun was supposed to be more power than the 1911(.45), with better ergonomics and more reliable. D&D just didn't deliver enough magazines with the few guns that left the factory. Some owners never got a magazine with their guns.
In the late 80s I got to shoot one of the few Brens. A guy with our USPSA club had one, even with a magazine. It was a horse to handle in 10mm.
If the price is reasonable and with plenty supply of magazines, I would buy the new Vltor.
James "Sonny" Crocket used the alias Sonny Burnett when he was "undercover" ... suggesting that the drug cartels working in Miami in the 80's had the absolute worst counter-intel program in the history of mankind.
But at least they did a good job casting Don Johnson in the role. I mean, they could have done something ridiculous and chosen someone completely inappropriate. In modern terms, think someone like ... oh, I don't know ... Colin Farrell. Now that would be ridiculous.
Yes, but we all know and love them as "Crockett and Tubbs"
If the price is reasonable and with plenty supply of magazines, I would buy the new Vltor.
I will too. Call me silly, but I've always really liked the 10mm.
YukonGlocker
01-31-08, 18:29
Another 10mm fan here.
Although I would rather see a 10mm M&P, I welcome any new 10mm.:)
RogerinTPA
01-31-08, 18:33
here's a first look/preview of Vltor's new Fortis pistol project. more info at SHOT.
http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/fortis.html
That is awesome! I've always loved the Bren 10mm back in the day but had way too many problems with that platform. I sure hope they worked all of the bugs out of the revitalized Bren. I'd be interested in getting one if they did. If any member buys one, do a range report, include picks with your Sonny Crocket outfit too. :cool:
Barry in IN
01-31-08, 19:02
I REALLY hope this succeeds!
I'd like to have another.
I had a Bren Ten Marksman Special for a while. That model was a special run in .45ACP for a gun shop (The Marksman Shop) in the Chicago area.
My overall impression of it: An excellent design, but somewhat poorly made/finished in places.
Too bad about that. I had always hoped it would return... built by someone who could do it justice.
It had the best DA trigger I've ever tried on an auto. And, unlike some DA autos I've tried, the SA pull was great also. Most seem to have either one of the other.
It had some unique features. Some were useful, but some were not so useful but interesting just the same.
It reminded me of a Browning-designed gun, in the way that some parts acted as tools for other components, and just the way the gun went together.
-The magazine floorplate's forward extension acted as a bushing wrench. The barrel bushing was sort-of castleated, and the toe of the floorplate fit the notches to unscrew it.
-The recoil spring guide had a flat tip on it's front end, which served as a screwdriver. It fit grip the screws and a magazine "stop" that could be deactivated with a twist of a screw.
-That magazine "stop" was sorta like a screw that went in the left side of the grip frame and applied pressure against the mag. When ejected the mag would be partially ejected, but not fall free. Presumably, this was to meet some military requirement, but was normally locked out.
It performed a similar function as the CZ75's mag brake, but did it in a different way.
-The rear sight was adjustable for windage, but in an odd way. It rocks like a teeter totter, and has a set screw at the front and at the rear. You loosened one and tightened the other to get it where you wanted it, then left them tight. It was meant to be set and left set- not adjusted to change loads often. It was fairly well protected by being in a "well" of sorts.
I like them.
I hope we can get a regular production Bren X, so I can get another and shoot it without feeling guilty.
And yes Rhino, if I get one, I will shoot it in matches. I still have a holster.
I don't have the suit though. The sunglasses, but not the suit.
:cool:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P_dbZyuG0RU
Robb Jensen
01-31-08, 19:07
:cool:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=P_dbZyuG0RU
Ah, I do miss the Corvette with Daytona Ferrari kit!
Business_Casual
01-31-08, 19:34
You'll need one of these:
http://www.usgalco.com/Catalog/large/MCII_Silo.jpg
:cool:
M_P
Robb Jensen
01-31-08, 19:42
You'll need one of these:
http://www.usgalco.com/Catalog/large/MCII_Silo.jpg
:cool:
M_P
Yep the Galco Miami Classic, formerly from the Jack Ass leather company.
Yep the Galco Miami Classic, formerly from the Jack Ass leather company.
Ah yes, the best of the medievil torture devices known as shoulder holsters, the bane of barrel chested burley men and range officers everywhere.
here's a first look/preview of Vltor's new Fortis pistol project. more info at SHOT.
http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/fortis.html
You snake..... :D
Did you see the size of that cell phone in the vid??!!
My, how times have changed.
Ah yes, the best of the medievil torture devices known as shoulder holsters, the bane of barrel chested burley men and range officers everywhere.
And Helicoppers.
militarymoron
02-01-08, 09:22
Could one of you fine pistol enthusiasts (and apparently Miami Vice fans) please let me in on the real reason that one might be filled with enthusiasm over this news? I mean the technical aspect. Because I am not seeing it.
Not trying to piss in Wheaties, but there's obviously something over my head here.
enthusiasm for every new/upcoming product posted in threads on this forum isn't a requirement :) heaven forbid - i'd be broke!
with the bren ten/fortis, the "real reason" is more than just the technical aspect. for me, personally, the bren ten is on my list of guns i'd have liked to own, but missed the boat on before prices became more than i wanted to pay. also, if i got an original, i'd be worried about spare parts availability, mags etc.
i've always liked the look of it, and like the idea of a new and improved version with good engineering behind it, and product support, that i won't have to worry about getting spare parts for or losing collector value if i shoot it.
think of a gun that you've always wanted in the past, but missed the chance to own, for whatever reason. then someone ressurects it and makes a new version available.
also, some of us still get excited when a new 1911 pistol comes out with pretty much no changes to the original design. it's the execution of the work that we appreciate, more than the technical aspect in many of those cases.
MadcapMagician
02-01-08, 10:13
I forsee a rise in the consumption and use of white suits and shoulder holsters with this one...
Where do I sign up? :D
I forsee a rise in the consumption and use of white suits and shoulder holsters with this one...
Where do I sign up? :D
I'll save money on socks too! But those unfiltered cigarettes are going to kill me! :(
Hopefully VLTOR will package each pistol with a kilo of Peruvian snow flake.
I'd just like to see it with black, pebble grain, polymer grips. Good for Vltor!
Barry in IN
02-01-08, 18:08
I'd just like to see it with black, pebble grain, polymer grips.
Maybe Hogue still has the molds???
And yes Rhino, if I get one, I will shoot it in matches. I still have a holster.
I don't have the suit though. The sunglasses, but not the suit.
We'll make sure to find or load some ammo to the original Norma specs for you too. A 200gr bullet at 1200 fps.
Color me crazy, but I also want a Smith & Wesson 1076. I've seen them for not much money in the used counter in Plainfield over the years, but never when I've had any $$$.
Barry in IN
02-02-08, 10:31
For Pete's sake, what else WOULD I shoot in a Ben Ten?
To get you started- As I recall, 800X was good at getting close to the original load!
I'm with you on the 1076 thing. I can't explain why either.
I had a 1006 for a while, but it's not the same. I too have often wondered why I didn't get a 1076 when he had them on a regular basis back about 1995 or so.
Of course it would be long gone by now if I had.
Barry in IN
02-02-08, 10:43
Rhino-
Just in case you were wondering, I would use my belt holster rather than hunting down a shoulder rig and having everyone clear the line for safety reasons.
Speaking of that Miami Classic Galco/Jackass/whatever rig that was being talked about earlier:
I used to look in on a Bren Ten forum now and then (yes, there is one), and remember they were trying to get Galco to make another run of that holster :rolleyes: .
The answers from Galco varied according to who they talked to at Galco, from current price plus $50, to current price +$300 and a minimum order of something like 200 holsters.
But they were upset because the holster or harness was slightly changed since the original.
Sigh.
Ted Blocker made one for the show also. Don't ask me how I know these things.
Could one of you fine pistol enthusiasts (and apparently Miami Vice fans) please let me in on the real reason that one might be filled with enthusiasm over this news? I mean the technical aspect. Because I am not seeing it.
Not trying to piss in Wheaties, but there's obviously something over my head here.
It was an (arguably) ergonomic design based on the CZ 75, which allowed standard double action or cocked & locked carry. I think for many, myself included, it's just a bit of nostalgia.
I remember a lot of excitement at the time because of the new 10mm and personal endorsement/involvement by Jeff Cooper.
For Pete's sake, what else WOULD I shoot in a Ben Ten?
To get you started- As I recall, 800X was good at getting close to the original load!
I'm with you on the 1076 thing. I can't explain why either.
I had a 1006 for a while, but it's not the same. I too have often wondered why I didn't get a 1076 when he had them on a regular basis back about 1995 or so.
Of course it would be long gone by now if I had.
I think the SIG-style frame-mounted decocker the FBI mandated for the 1076 made it a better gun that the 1006 with its conventional S&W-style safety/decocker. No need for a standard safety on a crunch-n-ticker in my opinion.
I like the triggers on 3rd generation S&W pistolas too. The double action is really smooth, and the reset is incredibly short for a conventional double action gun. I don't know of any others that come close (unmodified), although I'd like to take a look at the new SIG--Sauer short reset trigger.
Getting back to the Bren 10 ... did it have a trigger pull and single action reset similar to the CZ?
Barry in IN
02-04-08, 12:10
Getting back to the Bren 10 ... did it have a trigger pull and single action reset similar to the CZ?
It has been about 10 years since I owned my Bren Ten, and I've only had one CZ and that was briefly. I didn't own them at the same time, but real close to it.
As I said earlier, the trigger (both SA and DA) was the most impressive feature of the Bren Ten I had, so I feel I remember it well.
As I recall:
The SA trigger was almost the same on both. About equal in reset and pull weight. I would say my CZ had more creep, and it didn't have much.
So- slight edge to the Bren Ten there, but the average gun from each place may be about the same.
The DA trigger of the Bren Ten was excellent. The best I've ever felt on a DA, and the only DA trigger I really liked. I usually hate them, but I've had some I could live with. I actually liked that Bren Ten's DA.
The best way I can describe it is by comparing it to the tuned DA trigger of a PPC revolver. No kidding.
But that was my gun. I have no idea what the average Bren was like.
I've only played around with two other Bren Tens besides mine but they had triggers that were virtually the same as my gun's.
Edit: Bob at Plainfield had one of the other Bren Tens I've looked at. Maybe he still has it and you can give it a squeeze.
(Then maybe he'll let you see the Bren! Yuk Yuk Yuk)
I remember when it came out the first time. One of the guys in my IPSC club (pre-comp/red dot/etc days) had one of the first ones. We all shot it - single shot ! He had no mags for it.
I'd be in for one, either with the .45acp conversion, or just in .45. Never saw much sense in 10mm myself.
Too cool, though...;)
I'm going to have to buy one of these things.
:D
Original Bren Ten;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/brenx-sfd4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/bren_ten.jpg
Edit: Bob at Plainfield had one of the other Bren Tens I've looked at. Maybe he still has it and you can give it a squeeze.
(Then maybe he'll let you see the Bren! Yuk Yuk Yuk)
Wise guy, eh?
Bob's is where I've seen S&W 10mm guns too.
Never saw much sense in 10mm myself.
What if you're attacked by a madman wielding a '69 Plymouth Fury or a '71 Pontiac Catalina? You're going to need a bigger gun, and 10mm fills the bill. :D
Barry in IN
02-06-08, 16:51
Nice stuff, VA Dinger. Yours?
I sent Vltor an email a few days ago, and just got a reply back. Not much new in there, but there were a couple of small things so I'm sharing.
Please note that the "Fortis" web address given in the email takes you to Vltor's homepage...for now anyway.
_______________________________________________________________
Dear Fortis Enthusiast,
Due to the overwhelming and positive response to the Fortis Pistol Project, we would like to address some of the questions, comments and concerns that we received from the 2008 Shot Show.
First and foremost, the Fortis Pistol is neither a concept nor a “market study”; we are moving forward with the Fortis. As many people saw at the show, we have finished a great deal of the design work and are evaluating prototype design models now. We are taking every possible step to ensure that the Fortis will incorporate the absolute best materials and manufacture technique available.
As part of a leading aerospace manufacturer, Vltor is able to use state of the art computer simulations for design testing, stress analysis, and geometric dimension and tolerance testing; furthermore, the Fortis will undergo extensive range testing and evaluation, to ensure that the final release product is worthy of the place it will take in the handgun world.
We are not yet ready to commit to a release date for the Fortis… we have learned from others in the industry that announcing a release date this early most often leads to one of two things: The release date is missed, causing discouragement and anxiety in buyers, or the product becomes a “rush job” to meet the release date. We will avoid the old axiom that there is never time to do it right, but always time to do it over – and take the time to ensure that the Fortis is done right the first time. With that said, we expect that the first release of the Fortis will be around the end of the year.
As for the estimated price of the Fortis, this can set the same type of trap as guessing a release date – or goal is to bring the base level Fortis to the market, at a price that is competitive with a mid-level 1911 style pistol.
The First release of the Fortis is being developed in both 10mm Auto and .45ACP, there will be other calibers available in the future. Also, while identical in appearance and feel, the first release will not be a 100% reproduction of the original Bren-Ten pistol; there are design modifications to improve the strength, safety and reliability of the pistol. It is too early to say what parts will be interchangeable between the Fortis and the original Bren-Ten.
After the first release of the Fortis, we will offer other models and levels of finish in the Fortis line. In addition to compact, tactical and lightweight designs, we will offer an exact reproduction of the original Bren-Ten as a legacy collector.
It has always been a policy of Vltor Weapons to avoid certain ad hoc news venues; while internet forums and public message boards are great for much of the information they provide, it is all to often impossible to establish what information is accurate and what is not – therefore, any news about the Fortis that comes from rumor control is exactly that: rumor.
We have established an official website at www.fortispistol.com that will be the only official source of information on the Fortis Pistol Project – we will update the information there as needed, and will try our best to keep you up to date as development and manufacture continues. Please check there for any questions you might have in the future and thank you for you interest in the Fortis and your support in making an American dream happen. This message was automatically generated and we hope that it answers any questions you may have. Please do not reply to this email, all you will get is this same auto-generated message.
Thank you for your interest.
Respectfully,
Eric S. Kincel
General Manager
Vltor Weapon Systems.
Sounds like it will run 1200 - 1500 dollars.
Nice stuff, VA Dinger. Yours?
No unfortunately, but I'm looking forward to buying a Vltor version. No question about it.
Sounds like it will run 1200 - 1500 dollars.
That depends on what you consider a mid-level 1911......I'm hoping for something closer to $700 like a Springfield loaded or many Kimbers. From a production 1911 standpoint, I'm thinking RIA (for example) as low level, Kimber as mid-level, and Wilson, Baer, Ed Brown, Nighthawk as high level.....Who knows what Vltor considers mid-level though.
That depends on what you consider a mid-level 1911......I'm hoping for something closer to $700 like a Springfield loaded or many Kimbers.
Well I consider 2500-3500 high end 1911, 5-600 base 1911, so 1200ish would be low/mid range.
I don't realistically see this pistol coming in under $1,000. If it did, I'd wonder what corners they cut to get it there. The volume is just not there like a glock or sig. I see it as a niche gun. Most non-enthusiasts don't know what a Bren Ten is, let alone a Fortis.
Well I consider 2500-3500 high end 1911, 5-600 base 1911, so 1200ish would be low/mid range.
I don't realistically see this pistol coming in under $1,000. If it did, I'd wonder what corners they cut to get it there. The volume is just not there like a glock or sig. I see it as a niche gun. Most non-enthusiasts don't know what a Bren Ten is, let alone a Fortis.
The end of the world truly is near, I am in complete agreement with Markam. Oops, demigod.
I never knew we disagreed. :D
Barry in IN
02-26-08, 10:47
There is a book on the Bren Ten that came out a year or so ago. I had put off buying it, but this Bren Ten ressurection talk got me all fired up and I ordered a copy.
It's called "Bren Ten: The Heir Apparent" by Ronald A. Carillo.
You would think there woudn't be much to write about.
You'd be wrong.
Holy crap, this thing is thorough.
My copy just arrived yesterday, but I was up late last night reading pieces from it. It goes back to the development of .40/10mm cartridges like the .40 G&A by Whit Collins and Paul Liebenberg's Centimeter, covers the whole Wondernine tale to include the CZ75, and of course the Bren Ten/10mm saga. It gives nearly as much attention to the 10mm cartridge (and other similar rounds) as the gun itself.
It has lengthy interviews with Jeff Cooper, Tom Dornhuas, Mike Dixon, Paul Liebenberg, Whit Collins, Chuck Taylor, and others.
It also covers recent attempts at reviving the gun, like the Peregrine Falcon and Triton Cartridge's "feeling out" of the idea.
Whether you give a rat's butt about the Bren Ten or not, its interesting what goes into getting a new gun into production.
Reading this, I really don't see how D&D got any guns built. What a challenge, especially for a new company that has not built a gun before. I didn't realize just how much of D&D's production was subcontracted out. More headaches.
Honestly, seeing how tough it was has dimmed my hopes for the new Vltor Fortis. I'm not ready to give up yet, and I've always known it's a lot bigger than making up a set up prints and feeding steel into a machine, but I am more pessimistic about a late 2008 release than I was.
It's 289 pages, and doesn't have a lot of pictures. The lack of pictures might be my biggest criticism so far. Ordinarily, more words and less photos would be good, but I find myself wishing for a picture at times to illustrate some point or feature.
The book is availble direct from the author at $22.95 plus $3.50 S&H.
Circle Ten Publishing, LLC
PO Box 277
Grand Junction, CO 81502
http://www.bren-ten.com/website/id85.html
well Vltor isn't new at this game so let's give them the benifit of the doubt.
RAM Engineer
02-26-08, 11:41
Barry,
Thanks for the tip on the book. I'll have to add it to the library.
Jason
militarymoron
02-27-08, 10:55
Honestly, seeing how tough it was has dimmed my hopes for the new Vltor Fortis. I'm not ready to give up yet, and I've always known it's a lot bigger than making up a set up prints and feeding steel into a machine, but I am more pessimistic about a late 2008 release than I was.
you're right - it's not that easy. but vltor has the resources to do it right - along with solid engineering, finite element analysis and lessons learned from the original bren ten projects and clones. they're not starting from scratch, and have the past to see where the mistakes were made, and the chance to improve upon them. as for a release date, vltor has not committed to one (smart of them). the fact that's it's vltor makes me optimistic.
Barry in IN
02-27-08, 13:52
Oh, I never said they couldn't do it. I just won't be looking for it as soon as I had hoped. If it arrives sooner, so much the better.
I'm sure Vltor can do it. A lot of places could.
Hell, D&D got guns built, and they were a cluster of the highest order.
Something that makes me optomistic is that Vltor has already said they would not be making a 100% reproduction, at least at first.
From what I gather from the book, the Ben Ten could have been on the market a lot sooner had D&D not done some things with the gun that they did. For example- The crossbolt safety (which I don't see in the Vltor CAD drawings) was the result of lawyers' concerns (big surprise) over lowering the hammer on a chambered round. It caused delays and expenses added to the gun when they were already out of money and time.
Since I've started...here's some more:
According to D&D, they read Jeff Cooper's 1977 article on the CZ-75 which suggested some changes (not the least of which was chambering) and being Jeff Coper fans, they wanted to make "Jeff Cooper's gun"...regardless. And that brought difficulties.
To hear their story, they wanted so badly to keep it true to Jeff Cooper's ideal that they did some things that were more trouble than they were worth. Jeff Cooper made no claims to being a production engineer and said they asked suggestions and he gave them. And D&D often implemented them whether it was the best business decision or not.
One example is the thumb safety location. The orignal CZ-like location was OK, but felt different from the 1911, which is what Jeff Cooper preferred. So D&D moved it...at a claimed near 18 month delay due to the amount of internal mods needed. You move one thing and if effects 17 others.
How true these things are, I don't know. But I suppose there is plenty of evidence that D&D's Bren Ten operation wasn't the best planned endeavor. They tried to build a gun with little capital, operating on deposits, and dealing with subcontractors out from under their control. I don't know if that has ever been successful in any business.
And I sure don't see Vltor doing it that way.
militarymoron
02-27-08, 14:03
that's the beauty of CAD/solid modeling/FEA etc. you can determine parts fit, clearances, tolerances, mechanism functioning, angles and such, and the stresses put on them before you cut metal. it really saves time nowadays when used correctly, and puts you much closer to a final prototype design when you DO cut metal than 20 years ago.
that bren ten book sounds VERY interesting - might have to pick me up a copy. thanks for the heads up on it.
i'm with you - i'd have like a fortis YESTERDAY. i'm that impatient. :)
As a 10mm fan, I look forward to this gun coming to fruition....heck, I might purchase one too when they do.
Interesting.
May be a small niche market for it, but I don't think it has any future in the LE/MIL market or as a big commercial success for the same reasons the 10mm didn't and still doesn't.
The full power 10mm is more than most want/need, and pistols built to take many rounds of full power 10s are big and heavy. The CZ97 in 45 is a honkin' huge heater too. A 1911 w 45 +P and/or a CZ75 in 40 is a better fit for most in size and power level.
I wish 'em well though.
I think there will be a bigger market than you think. There was a lot of us on a waiting list for one.
Any word on this pistol? :confused:
I realize this is probably missing the point (the nostalgia of the Bren), but as Mike O already hinted, why not just get a CZ-75 chambered in .40 S&W? At around $500, this would be a lot cheaper than the $1200 that the Bren is supposed to go for. With the CZ-75 you'd get virtually all the advantages of the Bren, in a more established and tested design where you have current market support, holsters, etc. And with places like DoubleTap loading up the .40 really hot, you can get reasonably good .40 loads these days, well beyond the .40 "short & weak" as originally conceived.
I personally love the CZ-75/85/SP01 design, own several of them, and like them just fine in 9mm.
Guys, I hate to be skeptical, but other than scratching a nostalgia itch, exactly what is this project supposed to accomplish? In .both 40 and .45 ACP, the last time I checked CZ themselves (among others...) have that arena pretty well covered, and in 10mm, other than in hunting an perhaps long-distance shooting, why do we need a heavy gun with hefty recoil characteristics-especially when there's a lighter, more pragmatic, well fielded and established Glock 20 available?
What comes immediately to mind were Stoeger's and Mauser's re-creations of the P.08 Luger...which were not exactly overwhelmingly received (or successful, or arguably needed).
Best, Jon
Maybe the nostolgia itch is in itself enough reason. If you don't get it then don't buy one. Obviously Vltor thinks it is worth it.
CZ makes one great pistol but it is not a Bren and there are people who want and will pay for a Bren.
I see Vltor has a blog dedicated to the pistol. It appears that they're still moving along, but the blog hasn't been updated in months.
threeheadeddog
09-20-08, 12:29
What is the need or nich for this pistol?.... Well as a 10mm guy I can answer that quite easily.
The 10mm crowd wants...NEEDS... a full size double stack STEEL framed pistol. While the glock is an established design there are a large number of people who simply do not shoot it well or it does not point naturally for them. 10mm shooters would really be happy with any SOLID designed double stack and have been fantasizing about a M&P or similar pistol but if you look at the type of people who are often 10mm shooters you will see alot of 1911 guys and yes CZ guys, which are of course steel framed pistols. There are a metric ton of custom high dollar 10mm 1911's out there beause the 10mm crowd is willing to invest money into a pistol(and with a 1911 often has to) to get something to shoot their beloved 10mm cardridge. You will also see this with the 10mm glock crowd with the custom longslides and the tuned(for performance since the glock is generally reliable) glock 20's.
Sorry for the rant but the 10mm crowd is, like any obscure crowd, a dedicated lot and sometimes for those who are on the outside looking in we dont make particular sense.
K.L. Davis
09-20-08, 13:41
Posted on the Fortis Blog (http://vltor.wordpress.com/)
Shadow1198
09-21-08, 04:21
What is the need or nich for this pistol?.... Well as a 10mm guy I can answer that quite easily.
The 10mm crowd wants...NEEDS... a full size double stack STEEL framed pistol. While the glock is an established design there are a large number of people who simply do not shoot it well or it does not point naturally for them. 10mm shooters would really be happy with any SOLID designed double stack and have been fantasizing about a M&P or similar pistol but if you look at the type of people who are often 10mm shooters you will see alot of 1911 guys and yes CZ guys, which are of course steel framed pistols. There are a metric ton of custom high dollar 10mm 1911's out there beause the 10mm crowd is willing to invest money into a pistol(and with a 1911 often has to) to get something to shoot their beloved 10mm cardridge. You will also see this with the 10mm glock crowd with the custom longslides and the tuned(for performance since the glock is generally reliable) glock 20's.
Sorry for the rant but the 10mm crowd is, like any obscure crowd, a dedicated lot and sometimes for those who are on the outside looking in we dont make particular sense.
At the risk of getting OT, am I missing something? You can find 10mm EAA Witness' on Gunbroker for under $400-450 NEW and all steel. I've never owned one but, is there something bad about them that you're not considering them an option? I have long considered going with one of those when I finally decide to jump into the 10mm arena.
You are the 2nd person in a couple of days to say "am I missing something?" If you don't get it, it probably cannot be explained to you as it is not a rational thing. If you do get it, you want it and are thrilled Vltor is bringing it back.
This not meant to be a smartass answer, it is just the way it is. It is in the same vein as trying to explain your high dollar 1911 that you waited months to years for to someone who loves and appreciates the simplicity and reliability of a Glock.
And, since I am betting most on this website love firearms and the 2nd Ammendment, why does it have to be any reason other than I WANT IT :D
... If you don't get it, it probably cannot be explained to you as it is not a rational thing. If you do get it, you want it and are thrilled Vltor is bringing it back.
....
It isn't rational at all. Anymore than having more than one AR, one 1911, and one Super 90. Or some other combination of your favorite three. All have their place/specialty, but you can only shoot one at a time. So why would/how could you justify owning more than a single example of each. You either want one or you don't. Me, I don't want a Glock. I've shot a couple and at best for me they're "OK". But I know several folks with several examples of Glocks, just different calibers. And that's just fine by me. Don't understand it, but it's their money and desire to own that's driven them to buy them. Good for them! Let's set up some targets and start blasting! There's plenty of room on the firing line....
Nathan_Bell
08-31-09, 10:55
News?
Last I heard is they are aiming for taking orders at SHOT. Of course I was on vicodin for a back injury when I had that conversation, so maybe I was just having hopeful hallucinations :cool:
I was geeking out on them at SHOT bad enough that my g/f went wandering to go look at shiny sharp steel things.
:cool:
It's been 3 years since the original announcement and no updates to their blog. I wouldn't hold my breath any longer. Vltor is probably focusing on other projects.
http://vltor.wordpress.com/
Last updated in June. Something about grenade launchers. :haha:
dookie1481
02-08-11, 12:47
My buddy and I were talking about getting these and dressing up like Crockett and Tubbs for an IDPA match.
I got to hold one in my hand at Vltor... but it doesn't sound like the Bren Ten will be available any time soon.
There's no question that I want one.
The gun magazines were so full of them back in the day. You couldn't walk into a book store and not see one being promoted as high tech. Too bad I did not get one.
The gun magazines were so full of them back in the day. You couldn't walk into a book store and not see one being promoted as high tech. Too bad I did not get one.
Vltor will get the project right... It'll be worth the wait. There's a lot of solid brain cells under their roof.
News?
Ha! Dude really?
First post 2-08
Last post 2-11
Nero post 8-12
I'm pretty sure you can stop waiting.
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