View Full Version : looking for some help from the more experienced
Im looking to pick up a bolt action gun to fill 2 roles. One role is long range precision shooting and the second is hunting.
I've been looking into 7 mm rem mag. It should have plenty of power for anything i will hunt in my life. From the research i have done it should also have plenty of gas to get me passed a thousand once my skills get there.
My questions are: is there another caliber i should be looking at? Like in the 30's.
The gun Im looking at right now is the rem 700 sendero sf II with 26" heavy fluted barrel. My next question is should this be adequate to start?
Any suggestions are welcomed. Is this a good start? would you do it different? Looking for some help Im really out of my element with bolt guns. If it matters i already re load my own ammunition so ammo price is no big deal.
mkmckinley
09-01-12, 00:11
For learning how to shoot long range .308 is an excellent round. It will force you to learn wind and range estimation while still being a very capable cartridge for long range shooting and hunting. It also has the benefit of long barrel life and easily found components.
I agree with the first part.
For learning long range shooting, a 308 is virtually unbeatable. However, a good long range hunting cartridge it is not. Far from it actually.
A 7rem mag is very good at both. It has some things going against it though.
1) It's a long action cartridge.
2) It has a belted case.
Neither of the above is a good thing if feeding from a repeater.
Take a look at the 7wsm or 300wsm. Both are excellent long range shooters, with the nod going to the 300 for long range hunting. The 300 carries a bigger payload which results in more energy on animals at distance. They match or exceed the performance of their belted originals, and do it in a short action.
AR15barrels
09-01-12, 00:45
I disagree on using a magnum as a general precision rifle cartridge unless you can keep a suppressor on the gun at all times.
My reasoning has to do with the combined effects of the recoil and the muzzle blast on the shooter.
Magnums are just downright nasty to shoot compared to the more mild members of the 308 family.
Take the typical heavy barreled magnum to the range and fire 60 rounds.
Another day, take a 308 and fire 60 rounds.
The difference at the end of the day is night-and-day.
It's going to be harder to stay consistent throughout the day with the magnum.
The magnum is also gonna eat barrels much faster.
Any of the experienced guys will agree that the best way to get good at long range shooting is to do it, a lot.
That means firing lots of rounds...
A heavy barreled gun of any caliber generally makes a poor hunting gun unless you just walk a short distance and post up for the day.
A lighter sportier profile barrel is the way to go if you are walking all day.
The best path is to have your heavy barrel target gun in say 308 or something smaller caliber if you reload, then have a hunting weight magnum for the field.
The skills you learn with the target rifle WILL transfer over to the hunting field with the hunting gun.
The only real difference will be your dope.
The hunting gun will recoil a whole bunch meor, but you won't fire nearly as many rounds through it in a day so that really won't matter.
The reason for not going 308 was that i already have a 30-06 (its a BAR) and did not want a less capable bolt gun (maybe that is a bad way to put it).
What is wrong with long action? Other than weight.
Is feeding a belted cartridge that problematic?
I Will look into the suggested cartridges. 300wsm would allow me to use some of the same bullets for reloading.
Any comments on the gun itself?
AR15barrels
09-01-12, 00:59
What is wrong with long action? Other than weight.
The increase in bolt travel causes you to lift your face off the stock between shots.
If you don't, there is a good chance of the bolt tapping your face.
This is a bad habit we see in hunters.
When we teach new precision rifle shooters with short actions, we teach them to stay on the stock through the whole process.
It's part of follow through and spotting your impacts.
You can always tell a hunter as they fire and immediately look over the top of the gun to watch their impact.
Of course, the scope is a much better tool for spotting impacts than the naked eye...
Spend much time behind a 7wsm Randall?
AR15barrels
09-01-12, 01:14
Spend much time behind a 7wsm Randall?
Not a lot, but enough to form the opinion that I don't like shooting heavy bullets or magnum muzzle blast.
That's why I stick to dtacs...
I never thought about the length of the bolt being retracted causing problems. As of now i only have shot semi autos so i almost always try to spot where a round has impacted through the scope if using one.
I have shot 300 win mag and gone through around 40 rounds in a session and i did pay for it the next couple days. So i see where extended practice can be painful.
Could i just use the 06 for practice and supplement the magnum in as needed.
For some reason Im really not wanting a 308 no idea why Im just trying to not go 308.
Is there any non magnum cartridge i should think of other then 308?
AR15barrels
09-01-12, 02:40
Is there any non magnum cartridge i should think of other then 308?
6.5 creedmoor, 260, 243
6.5 creedmoor, 260, 243
To small for hunting larger game. I've read a lot tonight on the 7wsm and it sounds like a winner. The only problems is i can not find a rifle clambered for it that i like. Im going to do a little more research, but Im almost positive i Will go for a 7 wsm and order a base rifle from gap with a few changes.
If anyone knows of a good rifle clambered in 7 wsm under 3 grand let me know. Original budget was 3 with glass and the gap Will be 3 before glass.
6.5 creedmoor, 260, 243
I'm thinking you aren't much of a long range hunter? That's not meant as a slight... but none of those cartridges are particularly good at taking deer-sized animals at distance. They are GREAT for poking paper and dinging steel... but to kill, you want something with much more authority. Hell, a 243 can barely be considered a big game cartridge as it is, at any range. It's considered "minimum" by most. I shot many mule deer with a .243 and not very many were knocked down in their tracks.
7WSM and 300WSM are king for hunting inside of about 800yds. They can get it done beyond that as well, but not with authority. Beyond that you need to look at the big boomers. 338LM, 338Edge, etc.
7WSM and 300WSM are king for hunting inside of about 800yds.
Do you have a preference?
I haven't shot enough critters with either to give you a good answer. Some friends prefer 300WSM, but I have very little personal experience.
I use 338LM. It kills things to death... so I have had no need to hunt with WSM's.
I'm thinking you aren't much of a long range hunter? That's not meant as a slight... but none of those cartridges are particularly good at taking deer-sized animals at distance. They are GREAT for poking paper and dinging steel... but to kill, you want something with much more authority. Hell, a 243 can barely be considered a big game cartridge as it is, at any range. It's considered "minimum" by most. I shot many mule deer with a .243 and not very many were knocked down in their tracks.
7WSM and 300WSM are king for hunting inside of about 800yds. They can get it done beyond that as well, but not with authority. Beyond that you need to look at the big boomers. 338LM, 338Edge, etc.
I personally witnessed my father take plenty of Utah mulies with a Model 600 6mm Remington with a 16" barrel using 90 gr Remington Bronze points. Shots were not long range, they were well under 200 yards. Each time he hit them in the vitals and even while running, they piled up when hit.
AR15Barrels also suggested two rifles- one to learn long range skills in a caliber that will not beat up the shooter, the other for hunting. For a hunting rifle, I have been very happy with a Remington Mountain rifle in 280 Remington. It's light weight make it a joy to carry and it's accurate out to ranges as my skills allow. Recoil is stout due to it's lower mass but the installation of a Decelerator makes a big difference and it is a hunting rifle
AR15barrels
09-01-12, 12:08
To small for hunting larger game.
I'm thinking you aren't much of a long range hunter?
I'm sticking to my two guns recommendation.
My 6mm and 6.5mm recommendation was for the target rifle.
I'll stick with 7wsm or 7mag for the hunting rifle of course...
Shots were not long range, they were well under 200 yards. Each time he hit them in the vitals and even while running, they piled up when hit. How exactly does that apply to long range hunting?
I also agree that 2 rifles would be better. However, if he's going to get ONE RIFLE... the little 6.5's and 243's are out of the question for long range hunting. Simple as that.
I understand the two gun option and would love two take that option but with the lack of factory options are upping the budget greatly. If i could just pick up gun listed it would be feasible to get something for target and something else for hunting.
The BAR i have shoots great with the Accubonds I've loaded for hunting so far so Im sure if i load some target bullets they will do fine for some easy on the shoulder practice.
So far my only apprehension is barrel life. From what i have been reading is life is very short for this caliber.
I use 338LM. It kills things to death...
Which brand do you use to hunt with?
Which brand do you use to hunt with? The brand I sell. DTA SRS. :)
http://www.gregd.net/pics/deer_hunting/IMG_1047.JPG
nice buck even nicer firearm.
i have found a couple factory 7wsm the one i really like and would consider getting is the Browning A-bolt M-1000 eclipse. the only thing i do not like about it is the thumb hole stock. other than that it looks like a nice rifle.
does anybody have any experience with the A-bolt M-1000? it does not have to be in the same caliber just looking for any opinions on this weapon in a short magnum if possible. if you have any info on the A-bolts in general please speak up.
the A-bolt runs around 1300 and could open up the possibilities of a second rig the gentlemen that goes by ar15 barrels. i do agree that would be the best route, and more guns is always better than less.
i also have some AR's which could also be used to learn some of the basic fundamentals of reading wind. i will have the rest of my parts to finish what will be my mid range precision AR. it is an 18" SPR w/NSR noveske upper, LRB lower, Geissele trigger, and ACS stock. this will be assembled by the end of the week.
by the end of this winter i will also have access to roughly 600 yard range in my back yard. it only a hundred right now, but the work has been started to extend to roughly 600 (i know this is not long range) just waiting for winter to burn and clear a little more. it is always windy where i live usually just breezy, but at least 3 times a month i get 10mph plus. in winter much worse with no snow just rain, and i can shoot any given day do to a medical condition and not working.
if i end up with one rifle will it be ok to use one of my semi's to learn some of the basics like reading the wind? i do understand there is no way to learn to deal with recoil other than shooting whatever magnum i end up with.
thank you to all that are helping. all the help is very much appreciated and iam taking all the info into account.
edit: can anybody recommend me someone who could build me a nice custom rifle falling in around the 3 grand area. it does not have to be right at three i can always save a little more but would like to keep rifle under 4. i do understand that quality cost money and am willing to pay for it i just do not have an unlimited budget. i would rather spend 3-4 grand and have a well built rifle that i will have forever rather than 1200-1500 and end up with an unsatisfactory rifle and end up spending 3-4 grand on top of the 12-15 hundred on something i may have to sell at a loss.
The semi's will be great for learning wind.
.223 gets pushed around by the wind a LOT. You definitely need a good read to get consistent hits out at 500+.
The Surgeon
09-01-12, 23:34
Orkan, I have finally found something we disagree on. Can you believe it? LOL The 308 is a very good long range gun! But, I will say this. For white tails and smaller the 308 is a good gun out to about 800 yards. The 308 will handle larger game but the distance will have to come down as well. It does do well out to a grand - 1200 yards for punching paper or ringing steel. That being said Orkan is right on about the 7mm in the sendero. The 7 wsm or the 300 wsm would be a lot better. I would add the the 300 WM and the 300 RUM onto that list with the 300 RUM being the better of the two 300's that I mentioned. The 300 RUM is capable of killing game out past 1200 on many north American game. I am running 230 gr bergers out of mine and the MV and energy that I am getting is nothing short of impressive.
As for the magnums being hard on barrels, yea, they are. But if your into precision shooting and long range hunting, the barrel life is a mute point. I mean really, does anyone buy a car and let it set in the drive because they're afraid of wearing out the tires? No! Tires on a car are going to wear out and they are going to be replaced, that is just the way it is. Same goes for a barrel on a gun. It is the one part of a gun that is going to wear out. Look at it this way. If your going to buy a Corvett your going to have the money to replace the tires because you're most likely going to have a heavy foot. Same goes for a $3'000 - $4,000 rifle. Your not going to park it in the safe and look at it Because you don't want to wear out the barrel to fast.
The magnums are not as unpleasant as some of the posters have stated. I have yet to see a 300 that, equipped with a good break and set up right, that was unpleasant to shoot and I have a total shoulder replacement. I am running a 300 RUM that tops the scales at about 15-17 lbs and a day of hunting out here in western Oklahoma isn't all that bad. But it all depends on you and what you are willing to tolerate. Physical conditioning goes along ways.
The magnums, set up right are a very good choice for precision work. Are there better choices out there for precision work? Yes. But you stated that you are looking for a happy medium. The 243, 260, and similar cartridges are great for precision work but for hunting the majority of north American game they are not, just that simple. They just don't have the gas to get the job done out to a grand. To get to that magic 1,000 yard mark and beyond you are going to have to step up into the magnums. Set them up right, with a weight that you can deal with, good break, good stock, and great glass you'll have an excellent precision rifle that is capable of killing the game you are after at the distances you are looking at. Weight can be a good thing, and bad if it is TO MUCH but that is up to you and how much you can tolerate. Set the weight up right and you can cut some of that recoil out.
As afar as building you a custom hunting rifle for under $4000 not including optics. Lorenzo Young from Deadly Precision Gunsmithing is probably on the top of my list and would definitely meet your needs as far as budget http://deadlyprecisiongunsmithing.com/. Tell him The Surgeon sent you. There are several smiths out there that you could look at just do a google search for "custom precision rifles" and the list is vast.
Thanks for the info surgeon i understand the barrel part of the equation. Its not a problem to replace a barrel on a custom rifle considering barrels are actually not that bad. If barrels were a grand or more that might be a different story. The high end barrels seem to run under 600 which is fine considering to get a chrome line replacement barrel for my MRP is around 340.
I read somewhere that barrel may need replacement under a thousand rounds and might be needed at a little over 500. That just did not seem realistic unless your a high level competitor shooting 3 inch groups at a thousand. In your experience what is an expected barrel life if well cared for and not abused?
The reason i wanted to go with a 7 is the high BC bullets for there weight.
I Will never be that good i know it. For me if i could keep 1 moa at a thousand eventually i would be beyond happy. The reason Im doing this now is that i can do it now, and due to medical reasons i will not be able to in the future. So i would like to start soon to give my self as much time as i can to get as proficient as i can. If i put it off anymore it may never happen.
The brand I sell. DTA SRS. :)
Awesome. I had no idea.
The high end custom makers I can think of right off the top of my head are GAP, SAC, APA and John Beanland who has fantastic customer service. There are plenty more of them out there. These are just the ones I am familiar with and you can get the custom you want at around the 3k range you are talking about. Won't have all the bells and whistles but it will be incredibly accurate. If you get up to 4k, you get whatever you want without compromises. I have a Gap 7WSM and it is good for long distance with plenty of punch. If you put strings through it and warm the barrel up, you can shoot it out in 7-800 rounds or so. A Bartlein, krieger, brux or whatever barrel that is fluted, cerakoted and or threaded for suppressor is not gonna run 600 bucks but closer to 800-1k to get re-barreled. 350 or so for barrel. 150 to thread for brake or suppressor. 250 or so for chambering. 150 for cerakote and another 150 for fluting. If you are gonna play in the high speed, long distance game, you are gonna have to pay. DTA barrels from SAC will run somewhere's around 1300 or so with extension but you can get the DTA barrels from a lot of custom makers now and if the bull pup design if for you, the DTA will deliver what you want it to. The 300 RUM is a fantastic round and shoots to whatever distance you want to go. A little harder on the shoulder than the 7wsm but carries more energy to target. Get a heavier gun with a brake and the recoil is not a problem. Can and will burn out barrels like the WSM's. Both the 7wsm and 300 RUM can be expensive to shoot and hard to find the right loads if you are buying factory but really shine if you handload. You prob won't find 162 Amax, 168 Sierra or any of the berger loads in a factory and if you did, they would be very expensive for the wsm's. The RUM with 240 sierras, 208 Amax's and 190 sierras are very good at very long distance but I don't think you can find those loads in factory rounds either. 243's with heavy bullets running high speeds are great for long shots on paper but not so much for animals at distance. Can and will burn up barrels when pushing 105, 107 and 115 grain bullets up to and past 3k fps. The 308 is still the easiest to load for and there are a multitude of factory rounds for it that are really good. It will not knock down large animals at long distance with authority but can and will take animals at reasonable ranges. Very easy on barrels and recoil is nothing. Should be very good on paper targets out to at least 800-1000 yards or so with 168 or 175 sierra's. You can also move down to 155 lapua's and pump speed up to get to 1k pretty easily. You can definitely go farther but it starts to get harder to hit at longer ranges. If I was to do it again and I prob will soon, I would go for the 7wsm or Rem saum, 300wsm or saum. I would make sure to get a long enough shank that I could re-chamber it after I shot it out, less than 300 buck to get that done and should shoot good as new. Hope this was helpful and not to much rambling.
It was not rambling just good info. For barrels i would get the brake but no need for fluting and cerekote. I won't be competing with anybody but myself.
I do re load my own ammunition so factory loads are not a worry for this project i would exclusively run my own ammunition.
When you say make sure the shank is long enough to get rebarreled. What exactly does it mean? I will check into the smiths you listed. I do not need all the bells and whistles. A factory action, nice barrel w/ brake, comfortable stock, and i should be good minus glass, rings, and a base.
Once again thanks for all the info
Orkan, I have finally found something we disagree on. Can you believe it? LOL The 308 is a very good long range gun! But, I will say this. For white tails and smaller the 308 is a good gun out to about 800 yards. The 308 will handle larger game but the distance will have to come down as well. It does do well out to a grand - 1200 yards for punching paper or ringing steel. Disagree all you like. I'm fully aware what each is capable of, and a 308 is not and never will be a considered a 1000-1200yd gun with cartridges like 7WSM around.
Doubt that fact? Come shoot against me and we'll see how you stack up.
Here's some data based on a 10mph 9 O'clock wind.
At 800yds:
7WSM - 4.6 up, 1.3 left - 1375 ft/lbs - 1955fps
308 - 6.6 up, 2.1 left - 868 ft/lbs - 1500fps
At 1200yds:
7WSM - 9.1 up, 2.2 left - 828 ft/lbs - 1520fps
308 - 14.2 up, 3.5 left - 447 ft/lbs - 1070fps
Add 1mph of wind:
7WSM 800yds - 1.3 goes to 1.4
7WSM 1200yds - 2.2 goes to 2.4
308 800yds - 2.1 goes to 2.2
308 1200yds - 3.5 goes to 4.1
Look at the difference in energy and velocity. The numbers speak for themselves. As does the reason why I shoot a 338LM.
338LM -
800yds - 5.1 up, 1.3 left - 2300 ft/lbs - 1900fps
1200yds - 9.9 up, 2.1 left - 1460 ft/lbs - 1520fps
Add 1mph wind -
800yds - 1.3 goes to 1.4
1200yds - 2.1 goes to 2.3
Killing animals at distance is about payload delivery... not just making a steel target go ding. Shoot a piece of steel at 800yds with a 308. Then shoot the same piece of steel with a 7WSM. If you tell me you can't tell the difference, you are lying through your teeth.
jstone,
Here a repost of mine from the Snipers Hide forum that you might find some value in:
There is an old adage:
Crawl before you learn to Walk; and Learn to Walk before you start to Run.
Now apply it to Long Range Precision Shooting:
Crawling: .223 Rem/5.56mm, .308 Win., 30-06
Walking: .243 Win, 260 Rem. 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x47 Lapua, 7mm-08, 284 Win, 280 Rem, et al
Running: 7mm SAUM, 7mm WSM, 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag., et al
Running as fast as your little legs can carry you: 338 Lapua, the Chey-Tac's, 50 BMG, et al
Short cuts, as trying to cut in line, doesn't work for most folks, and usually result in someone buying your lovingly built rifle at a substantial discount.
Progressing from crawling to walking usually involves learning to reload, if you don't already know how and parting with money to a gunsmith/gun builder to build you an accurate enough LR rifle.
There is an exception to the above rule, as highlighted in bold around 300 Win Mag. You can get a good Long Range 300 Win Mag, off the self, and there are a number of good factory match loads, so reloading is not a must (but a lot of cash to buy factory is a handy thing to have).
But unless your one of the 10% to 20% that is truly "recoil proof", your stay with cartridges like the 300 Win Mag for long range shooting, is usually brief, after several long shot strings. Muzzle brakes help, but generally piss off anybody that has to shoot next to you, so shooting alone a lot is in the cards.
All of this is IMHO, and YMMV, but after 42 years of shooting, I've seen more horror stories than successes, when somebody tries to walk or run, before they learn to crawl. You may be the exception that makes the rule, but I would not bet on it.
And if initial costs, and recoil, are not enough, what about the sheer number of rounds that are required to successfully read the wind......
Because reading the wind and adjusting correctly to it, requires thousands of rounds to be fired. You can buy a rifle that will shoot accurately 1200 yds or beyond, but only your individual skill in reading the wind correctly can assure you of actually hitting your target, like the vital area of a deer.
Here's an illustration of what I'm talking about:
7mm Rem Mag 162 Gr Hornady A-Max @ 3000 FPS
10 MPH cross wind
1200 Yds total drift 97.4"
12 MPH cross wind
1200 yds total drift 116.9"
So making a 2 MPH mistake in reading the wind @ 1200 yds will mean a miss of 19.5" from desired POI...
Think about it for a minute.... And then apply your desire to hit a living target @ 1200 yds and match that with your current skill level.
How about @ 600 yds with the same load??
600 yds 10 MPH Cross wind 19.9"
600 yds 12 MPH Cross Wind 23.9"
4" of difference is tolerable, which is why I recommend the "paper plate" test.
"Plates" are simply large 8" paper plates. When you can hit an
8" paper plate, cold bore, more than 50% of the time @range, in a variety of wind conditions, of the type you will encounter during your hunt, then your ready to hunt at that range....
I highlighted and underlined "cold bore" because that's exactly how your shot at game will be. Wild Game does NOT allow "sighter's" generally.
And if the above is not enough, I attended a Tactical shooting match in North Carolina a couple of years ago. The first evolution was a cold bore shot, the target was an 8" steel plate; the range was 600 yds; the wind was variable 5-10 MPH; Results: 24 shooters, and 23 misses.....and yeah I missed it too....
Best of luck to you sir...
Thanks for the info bob. I understand the crawling, walking, running analogy. I have not and will not take a shot on an animal unless i know i can make the shot 80 percent of the time. Im not recoil proof but i have shot 300 win mag a good amount. The day i put 40 rounds down range i was sore for a couple days.
I do reload and have for Roughly 7 years (not a long time but i can put together sub moa loads on a regular basis). So ammo is not going to be the problem.
I have shot at mid ranges nothing i would consider long. as far as a shooting partner i have one who has an obnoxious brake on a 300 win mag. I have dealt with the blast from his brake and am confident he Will deal with mine.
Im leaning toward sticking with the hunting i do now and get a rifle in the walking stage. To focus solely on shooting paper. Once and if i gain the confidence long range hunting and magnum will come back on the table.
Im taking all the info into account, especially all the info that is contrary to what i wanted to do. That is the reason i asked i truly did not know enough to just pull the trigger on a bolt gun let alone a large magnum rifle. It seems like the best bet may be to pick up a factory rifle of a known quality, and spend the extra money on lots of components. Im also going to get some professional instruction to get a good base. It will help to guage where Im at, and let me know what i really need to work on.
All this info has been far more then i expected to receive. It is almost overwhelming.
Thank you to everyone who took there time to help. The long range hunting is going to be shelved. Im going to pick a factory rifle in the walking category that bob posted (probably a 284 or a 7mm-08 so i can stay with a 7).
I think i thought it was to easy and could jump in with the men when i need to hang with the boys till i mature so to speak.
Ar15 barrels i was taking your advice into account i just was a little to focused on hunting rather than attaining the proper skills. I did give your info just as much thought as the others. your opinion is valued and played a great part
in my decision to go with a smaller caliber to learn with.
Orkan thanks your advice was great and hope i did not waste your time. Due to the decision of shelving the hunting was and one rifle part of it.
Once again thank you to everyone who took there time to help.
The Surgeon
09-02-12, 17:57
Disagree all you like. I'm fully aware what each is capable of, and a 308 is not and never will be a considered a 1000-1200yd gun with cartridges like 7WSM around.
Doubt that fact? Come shoot against me and we'll see how you stack up.
Here's some data based on a 10mph 9 O'clock wind.
At 800yds:
7WSM - 4.6 up, 1.3 left - 1375 ft/lbs - 1955fps
308 - 6.6 up, 2.1 left - 868 ft/lbs - 1500fps
At 1200yds:
7WSM - 9.1 up, 2.2 left - 828 ft/lbs - 1520fps
308 - 14.2 up, 3.5 left - 447 ft/lbs - 1070fps
Add 1mph of wind:
7WSM 800yds - 1.3 goes to 1.4
7WSM 1200yds - 2.2 goes to 2.4
308 800yds - 2.1 goes to 2.2
308 1200yds - 3.5 goes to 4.1
Look at the difference in energy and velocity. The numbers speak for themselves. As does the reason why I shoot a 338LM.
338LM -
800yds - 5.1 up, 1.3 left - 2300 ft/lbs - 1900fps
1200yds - 9.9 up, 2.1 left - 1460 ft/lbs - 1520fps
Add 1mph wind -
800yds - 1.3 goes to 1.4
1200yds - 2.1 goes to 2.3
Killing animals at distance is about payload delivery... not just making a steel target go ding. Shoot a piece of steel at 800yds with a 308. Then shoot the same piece of steel with a 7WSM. If you tell me you can't tell the difference, you are lying through your teeth.
Orkan I'm just poking fun at you. With the guns you have here in this quote, you are right. I'm just a die hard 308 guy and despite her short comings, I still will stick up for the 308. Oh yea there are better long range guns out there, no doubt about that. But, the old 308 is a great caliber. If it wasn't it would not have been around as long as it has. I'll be the first to admit that the 308 is a difficult round to shoot, especially at longer ranges and in the wind. But like I said, just in fun. Even if I wanted to argue that the 308 will hang with the calibers that have been mentioned by you, I could not prove or provide any relevant data in defense of the 308. I was just sticking up for the ol 308.
The Surgeon
09-02-12, 18:05
Thanks for the info surgeon i understand the barrel part of the equation. Its not a problem to replace a barrel on a custom rifle considering barrels are actually not that bad. If barrels were a grand or more that might be a different story. The high end barrels seem to run under 600 which is fine considering to get a chrome line replacement barrel for my MRP is around 340.
I read somewhere that barrel may need replacement under a thousand rounds and might be needed at a little over 500. That just did not seem realistic unless your a high level competitor shooting 3 inch groups at a thousand. In your experience what is an expected barrel life if well cared for and not abused?
The reason i wanted to go with a 7 is the high BC bullets for there weight.
I Will never be that good i know it. For me if i could keep 1 moa at a thousand eventually i would be beyond happy. The reason Im doing this now is that i can do it now, and due to medical reasons i will not be able to in the future. So i would like to start soon to give my self as much time as i can to get as proficient as i can. If i put it off anymore it may never happen.
Please clarify on what caliber you are referring to in regards of barrel life?
Don't sell your self short. A well built precision rifle can turn a horrible shooter into a good shooter and make a good shooter look great. Wait till you get behind a well built precision rifle, I believe you find that you are a better shooter than you think.
The Surgeon
09-02-12, 18:12
One other item Orkan. Money being right, I would love to come up there and shoot with you. Of course I would probably want to give that DTA a run?!?! Maybe one day, money permitting, we could get togethere and sling some lead. If I were to come up there you would try to sell me a DTA and you would probably be successful. Of course I would have to purchase a new sofa on my way back to Oklahoma. Because I would definitely be sleeping in the dog house! LOL
jstone,
I'm glad my post was helpful for you. And since you mentioned your considering other 7mm's, I though you might like this:
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm268/Shadowbobski/DSCF0706-2.jpg
My favorite hunting/LR tactical shooting rifle, caliber 7mm-08 naturally....:happy:
Orkan thanks your advice was great and hope i did not waste your time. Due to the decision of shelving the hunting was and one rifle part of it. On the contrary! I applaud your decision. I don't like it when people try "long range hunting" as soon as they start long range shooting. It results in wounded animals more often than not.
Most men are not capable of that kind of sound judgement. My hat is off to you. If there is ever anything I can do to help, just holler.
One other item Orkan. Money being right, I would love to come up there and shoot with you. Of course I would probably want to give that DTA a run?!?! Maybe one day, money permitting, we could get togethere and sling some lead. If I were to come up there you would try to sell me a DTA and you would probably be successful. Of course I would have to purchase a new sofa on my way back to Oklahoma. Because I would definitely be sleeping in the dog house! LOL lol
Anytime. Just let me know and we can put something together.
Surgeon i was looking into 7 wsm. It now Will either be 7mm-08 or .284
Bobin nice rig.
Orkan even if i would have started with the 7 wsm. I would never take a shot that i did not know i could make happen. Wounding an animal allowing it to die some where in the woods is not an option. It would have been a few seasons before i took an 800 to 1000 yard shot and it may have never happened. The intended purpose of rifle was gonna be for both. First season with it would have been around a 600 yard shot if given the chance. Distance of shots would have gained distance as i gained ability.
I am glad i started this thread, because i feel all the advice led me to make the most informed decision i could have.
The Surgeon
09-03-12, 02:10
Barrel life is going to be well above what you read on any 7mm. I had a buddy that, basically was in your exact shoes, and was looking at the 7/08. I have some research around the house here as to the 7/08, I'll have to see if I can dig it up. Off the cuff, I would have to swing my rope at the 284.
Orkan, I need to get your e-mail. I have a buddy that I was informing him about your deal with DTA. Anyway, he is interested in one. He's working on a movie set up in Bartlesville for the next 3 months and he told me to get ahold of you about the DTA and the packages that they may offer. I told him that, if the DTA is really what he wants, we need to make a drive up to your part of the country.
AR15barrels
09-04-12, 02:05
I read somewhere that barrel may need replacement under a thousand rounds and might be needed at a little over 500. That just did not seem realistic unless your a high level competitor shooting 3 inch groups at a thousand. In your experience what is an expected barrel life if well cared for and not abused?
On competition guns, we are expecting 1/3 moa performance. We are seeing 7wsm barrels open up to half moa around 700 to 900 rounds.
When you are competing and there are prizes on the table, it's just not worth running the chance of flyers from a barrel that should have been changed out already...
Same thing when hunting.
Would you trust a one moa gun at longrange when you know you could have had a 1/3moa gun with just a barrel change?
The Surgeon
09-04-12, 02:27
On competition guns, we are expecting 1/3 moa performance. We are seeing 7wsm barrels open up to half moa around 700 to 900 rounds.
When you are competing and there are prizes on the table, it's just not worth running the chance of flyers from a barrel that should have been changed out already...
Same thing when hunting.
Would you trust a one moa gun at longrange when you know you could have had a 1/3moa gun with just a barrel change?
Where are you coming up with 1 MOA out of Stones quote
AR15barrels
09-04-12, 17:29
Where are you coming up with 1 MOA out of Stones quote
Nowhere.
I was saying that the barrel life will depend on the accuracy requirement since he specifically said he was NOT talking about 1/3 moa accuracy requirement.
I was also saying that it's false economy to stretch the barrel life past the point where group sizes open up considerably larger than when the barrel was in it's prime.
My thinking was a gun that could maintain a 1 moa group at a thousand would be able to place one shot where needed. I had no idea if that is true. I was trying to figure out the life of barrel to figure out what the cost per year would be including barrels.
I had no intentions of keeping a barrel past its life. This thread was to gather information that i did not have. Thanks to the excellent posts from (ar15 barrels) and the others(Orkan, Bobin, surgeon, rundm, daveL sorry if i missed someone) i feel that i have the answers needed. I also think that i have made the right decision.
Im going to put off the long range hunting, and stick to my self imposed 400 yard limit with the 06 and 200 with 556 (small black tails).
Im going to still get a 7mm, but it will be 7-08 or .284. Im going to attend a long range shooting class, and work on my skills until i reach a high enough level of skill to move up to my goal of long range hunting with 7 wsm.
Ar15 barrels I know what you are saying that you and the competition shooters expect 1/3 moa from your 7 wsm's. I will always want to shoot the smallest groups possible, but Im not sure if 1/3 moa at a 1000 will ever be possible for me. At a thousand that is roughly 3 1/3 inch group. If i even achieve that level of skill i will try and get some of those prizes of the table.
Once again thanks to all who have helped me and maybe some day i will challenge some of you for those prizes on the table.
AR15barrels
09-05-12, 18:10
I will always want to shoot the smallest groups possible, but Im not sure if 1/3 moa at a 1000 will ever be possible for me.
It's all about mindset and equipment.
If you have already determined that you can't shoot 1/3 moa groups at 1000, then I would say you are correct.
I'm determined to do it.
I don't do it often, but I keep trying.
Here is a nice one at 600:
http://ar15barrels.com/gfx/600head.jpg
That is 3 rounds in 1.05" at 600yds with a 243.
The large hole is where they shoved the spotter after the shots were fired as a 3 shot string.
Note that the difference in group sizes between 600 and 1000 is about a factor of 3, not a factor of 1.7 as the math would have you think...
I know what you are saying about mind set. I know i can do it if given the time. Im nor sure i Will be able to shoot as long as i would like to, but Im going to go until i can not physically do it anymore.
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