View Full Version : Look maw no stock!
sinlessorrow
09-01-12, 00:47
http://soldiersystems.net/2012/08/31/no-stock-needed/
Is something like this really needed?
What the hell? Needed probably not, kinda interesting, but someone has way too much time on their hands. I wouldnt mind trying one, I think a mouthguard might help.
yossarian42
09-01-12, 02:05
Violin stock
Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk
Yea, the dentists are going to love this product.
KrampusArms
09-01-12, 02:40
That looks stupid. I cant imagine this feeling comfortable. The dudes head & jaw looked like it was getting jostled.
Gimmicky crap
ETA: States designed for pistols at the end. I can see a market for the AR pistol crowd with this, but for rifles? No way.
Hey M4Carbine:I'm the guy behind the NSN (No Stock Needed).
There's been overwhelmingly negative responses from people so far. I understand the concern, and I know I won't convince everybody of the NSN's benefits. But, maybe there will be a few open minded people out there. Hopefully you're reading this now.
A couple things: it's not a gimmick, and it actually can replace the shoulder stock with something more intuitive to use. And, yes, it's definitely marketed toward people who desire a very short barrel AR/AK/MP5 in pistol format. I wouldn't advise people to ditch their shoulder stocks on a 16+" barrel rifle/shotgun and switch to the NSN, because they wouldn't gain as much as somebody with a pistol (no stock allowed and all).
The most common thing people are saying is that it would hurt, and I'm just here to say that it doesn't hurt at all. Several new and veteran shooters have sent rounds downrange with it, and every one of them has remarked that the device works as promised (faster aiming, easier transition to offhand with little practice, easy follow up shots, no pain). I will be posting videos sometime soon with footage of other people using the device. If you're ever in the western Michigan area, I'd love to have you try this device out.
I appreciate the feedback, and I look forward to what the people on M4C have to say, especially.
Thanks, and S/F, Neal.
what the flying fairytale is that thing? oh my god. You know they're trying to hard when they come out with a product as ridiculous as this, then they get some guy to dress up and cut his hair so he looks like travis haley to use in their promotional video. :help:
@badness:
Sorry you didn't like the vid or the product. That's just me in the video, and I dress like that for every shooting class with my company. I definitely didn't do anything with my hair, either, but thanks, I guess.
Hopefully I'll win you over when other people try the NSN out. Take care,
Neal
Well, the gentleman who chimed in who made the thing is from grand rapids MI, so first off, hello to a fellow person from west michigan.
For those of you who do not know, MI is a no sbr state, and I am guessing that he is marketing to people like me who cannot have an SBR. I do have an AR pistol for just that reason. Would I buy this product? I really do not know, I am perfectly happy with my AR pistol as is and have no issue hitting tartgets at 100 yrds and I really do not need more from my pistol. I also wonder how long something like that will stay legal.
That being said, the guy is being inginuitive. He has found a product that might sell, even if it is not to you or me and is giving it a go. That is part of the american spirit and wish the man good luck.
...then they get some guy to dress up and cut his hair so he looks like travis haley to use in their promotional video. :help:
Regardless of what you think of his product, the personal attack is unwarranted. I know Neal; your description of him is inaccurate.
9mm_shooter
09-01-12, 07:12
The way the NSN chinstock transfers recoil to the mandible makes we wonder what will ultimately happen to the TMJ after several thousand rounds.
That's an out of the box type idea. Like allready mentioned the man lives in Michigan, I am about to retire from the USMC and move to Michigan and have sold my SBR barrel because of the states law. However I feel that a 14.5" rifle with a stock would be a superior weapon. Who knows though I may have to stop by GR and check it out for S's and G's.
Oh yea GO GREEN!
It's a creative idea, but I'm not sure how practical it is. My main concern would be mounting and firing the rifle quickly and under stress. I imagine there will be a lot of fat lips and banged up teeth when used in action.
SpankMonkey
09-01-12, 08:51
Yes it does look silly. I'm sure people also thought cars looked silly 100 years ago too.
Neal, How many rds have you put down range with this? Have you had any jaw or neck problems come up?
What length barrel and ammo are you running in that video?
Very interesting concept.
Welcome to the Forum Neal. Looks like your product has triggered a lively discussion on its usefulness in the AR Pistol marketplace. I'm sure a similar discussion took place many years ago when Eugene Stoner presented his prototype to the militaries of the world. "What? Plastic, aluminum, .223 cartridge?!! What the hell is Stoner thinking? It'll never make it in combat. The guy's nuts!" Look how far its come in fifty years.
Further testing, evaluation, and refinement will no doubt continue in your product's evolvement. Ultimately the marketplace will determine if it's a financial success. That doesn't mean it isn't a personal success to yourself if it doesn't pan out. Keep on pushing forward. It wasn't too long ago when "ambi" selectors, mag releases, and bolt releases were boohooed as unnecessary "gimmicks" that would just gum up the whole works. Good luck.
Hey M4Carbine:I'm the guy behind the NSN (No Stock Needed).
There's been overwhelmingly negative responses from people so far. I understand the concern, and I know I won't convince everybody of the NSN's benefits. But, maybe there will be a few open minded people out there. Hopefully you're reading this now.
A couple things: it's not a gimmick, and it actually can replace the shoulder stock with something more intuitive to use. And, yes, it's definitely marketed toward people who desire a very short barrel AR/AK/MP5 in pistol format. I wouldn't advise people to ditch their shoulder stocks on a 16+" barrel rifle/shotgun and switch to the NSN, because they wouldn't gain as much as somebody with a pistol (no stock allowed and all).
The most common thing people are saying is that it would hurt, and I'm just here to say that it doesn't hurt at all. Several new and veteran shooters have sent rounds downrange with it, and every one of them has remarked that the device works as promised (faster aiming, easier transition to offhand with little practice, easy follow up shots, no pain). I will be posting videos sometime soon with footage of other people using the device. If you're ever in the western Michigan area, I'd love to have you try this device out.
I appreciate the feedback, and I look forward to what the people on M4C have to say, especially.
Thanks, and S/F, Neal.
thanks for coming here and responding Neal. you're right there's been a lot of negative so far and that's pretty brave to just walk into the lion's den.
anyway, I have a question. what kind is and where did you get that Receiver Extension???
It's hard for people who live in states that allow SBRs to understand. Here in MIchigan AR pistols, being "pistols", are allowed to be carried loaded in a vehicle. A letter from the BATF showing legal status would help potential buyers from shying away.
I'd be willing to try it. I'd like to hit the west side of the state in the next few weeks. Is there a contact email I should use?
Also pretty sure those are my mag carriers in the video...
K.L. Davis
09-01-12, 12:34
I am surprised that they were able to find a product liability carrier... there is absolutely no question that selling this will result in a personal injury lawsuit.
thanks for coming here and responding Neal. you're right there's been a lot of negative so far and that's pretty brave to just walk into the lion's den.
anyway, I have a question. what kind is and where did you get that Receiver Extension???
Not Neal, but the RE comes from Rock River.
ForTehNguyen
09-01-12, 12:57
workaround for SBR?
theblackknight
09-01-12, 13:02
I'm not a female pornstar, therefor taking it to the jaw like that isnt my idea of fun.
There are way too many people with access to CNCs,etc, making stupid stuff. Same with tactical instructors.Just bc you can dosent mean you should.
****ing stop it.
I'm not a female pornstar, therefor taking it to the jaw like that isnt my idea of fun.
There are way too many people with access to CNCs,etc, making stupid stuff. Same with tactical instructors.Just bc you can dosent mean you should.
****ing stop it.
Give the guy a break, this is America and we believe in capitalism. It will succeed or fail on it's own merits.
I have serious doubts that the atf will classify it as a pistol though. So I'm thinking as a weight saver, maybe. As an sbr workaround, probably not.
skullworks
09-01-12, 14:14
So if you want to use any other firing position than standing you're kinda SOL, correct?
I'm just waiting for the video where someone is biting into that thing whilst firing.
Tatatatatatapatalk 2
Well, it is different. You are starting your own path for sure...
It looks exquisitely uncomfortable to shoot, though. I will have to see for myself. Good luck with your products.
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback. I really appreciate the open minds...I haven't seen that anywhere else, yet. After the somewhat disastrous start on Soldier Systems / AR15news.com, maybe this is the end of the beginning? We'll see.
To answer questions from this thread and in PMs:
-I'm a Marine (1/6 Wpns Co SSP 05-09) who went to Iraq/Afghan (Ramadi and Garmsir). Some posters (on other forums/blogs) said that I probably have never shot anything in a firefight, so I have no idea what I'm talking about...I have actually fired weapons at bad guys. If you want to read about it, my sniper team and I are featured in the last chapter of Gina Cavallaro / Matt Larsen's Sniper: America's Single Shot Warriors in Iraq and Afghanistan, available on Amazon. I'm no frigging bad ass, and I do not claim that I know what's right for every shooter, but I've BTDT, I realized that it sucked to use shoulder stocks, and I wanted to come up with a more intuitive system.
-I became an NRA instructor after getting off active duty, and I came up with this idea after seeing how students would have a hard time getting a consistent cheek weld and eye alignment every time, let alone when using the offhand position. Being able to mount this on a pistol and do away with SBRs is just icing on the cake.
-I've shot more than a thousand rounds with this. My jaw has never hurt, my face has never hurt, and my neck has never hurt. So far, I've had just about ten people try out the device, and I've heard unanimous agreement that shooting 5.56 and 300BLK is pain free for them, too. I can't wait to post video of other people using the NSN and showing their reactions. I'll be sure to put it up here.
-This product was originally intended for light recoiling cartridges, and it still is. I haven't yet set any defined "upper limit" for safe handling. In the next few weeks I will be testing the NSN on a Remington 870 with the AR15 buffer tube adapter from Mesa Tactical, just to show people that the device dampens recoil pretty damn well.
-About shooting in different positions: I've had a bunch of people say that this device is only suitable for standing shooting positions. The whole point of the NSN was to make aiming easier in every position...in a video soon, I'm going to highlight the fact that the NSN does away with the need to orient one's torso in the direction of firing. That means that you can shoot in absolutely any position, as long as your face is pointing toward the target and the firearm is properly indexed against your face. That means that prone shooting, for example, is even simpler to shoot from: you can fire straight ahead, turn your face 90* to either side, and shoot just as accurately, because there is no shoulder stock that needs to brace against your body for stability's sake.
-Shooting with a gas mask: well, considering that shooting a normal M16 with a Marine-issued gas mask was crazy annoying...shooting with the NSN may be just as difficult, or it may be much easier. I haven't tried it, yet. I'll let you guys know when I do.
-Regarding legality: please read my Legal Considerations page https://halix.co/legal.html. I think a bunch of people are confused, and justifiably so, about what the definition of a pistol is. I've included links directly to the BATFE opinions. No shoulder stock, rifled barrel, designed to be used with one hand, no vertical grip (with barrel under 16")...it's a pistol.
Calling the NSN an "illegal third point of contact" and defining it as a shoulder stock is just BS. Anybody can have a bipod, "stock saddle," angled foregrip, strap attached to the foregrip, a sling, etc on their pistol. I'd love it if people perused this: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/525036_Request___Scans_of_any_letters_from_the_BATFE__that_pertain_to_AR_pistols.html and then posted their comments, but...it's the internet. Wish Rob_S were here to say it, but since he's not able to: strive to become your own subject matter expert. I've taken the time to read every line of applicable BATFE firearms memos, and I am confident that this device has nothing to with, you know...a shoulder stock...because it's designed to never touch the shoulder. LOL.
-I had a rough first three years in the Marines, and I'm used to taking considerable amounts of flak, but I try to stay honorable in everything I do. I'm not perfect. You won't see me calling people idiots who post that the NSN is the coming of the antichrist. I see this invention as a possible next step in the evolution of the firearm. Consumers decide. I'll do my best to show them what benefits the NSN has over shoulder stocks. If I'm not doing a good job, then flame on, people. You're giving me more info to work with, and information is power.
-I'm pleased to say that we have taken several orders already. Glad to see some people are as excited as I am.
Steve S. from PS Holsters- PM me, if you could, so I can get you out to the west side and have you try it out. And yes, your pouches and holster are great, sir. Dave L. couldn't have been more correct: they're perfect.
Ra2bach: receiver extension is from Palmetto State Armory
TheBlackKnight: as a random aside, no CNC was used for this product. It was 100% prototyped using 3D printing in a stainless steel / bronze alloy, until I got to the point where I ordered a full-out 17-4PH cast prototype. And I'll try not to think up anything else as crazy next time, ok? Hehe.
Neal,
Very professional, courteous, and informative reply to this topic and about yourself as well. I would love to try this out one day and see how I feel about it. Welcome to M4C and I wish you and your company the best of luck. Looking forward to more videos and other user feedback.
-Jax
again, thanks for coming here Neal. I appreciate your service and I appreciate what you are trying to do. It's obvious how you handle yourself that you're a class act. good to have you aboard and good luck in your endeavors...
With your antics in this thread and others you are skating on thin ice. Knock it off or the black Chinook will be here to extract you.
I'm not a female pornstar, therefor taking it to the jaw like that isnt my idea of fun.
There are way too many people with access to CNCs,etc, making stupid stuff. Same with tactical instructors.Just bc you can dosent mean you should.
****ing stop it.
Great post by Neal at Halix!!!! Thanks for that!
It's not for me, but I sure do appreciate innovators, risk takers and entrepreneurial-ism. Good on ya sir!
A very smart man once said to me: "A little ingenuity goes a long way"
While I certainly respect and applaud your efforts, I can't see this being the answer to a problem that may not exist. The first time someone ends up with a dislocated jaw or similar injury the civil liability suit will end this product line if the lack of interest does not.
Guys, wow. I'm honored. I've been reading M4C since I was f'ing boot, and I never thought I'd get to this point.
Krypto: I'll be honest, I have that in the back of mind whenever I have legal liability and product use / directions copy checked by my attorney. One of the things, in the next few weeks, that I will be determining is the maximum recommended cartridge for safe use. First order of business: 1oz slugs on an 870 with the NSN, no shit. Beyond that, it will be all about delivering effective, clear, and understandable information to customers about the limits for this device.
Having looked at the video I can honestly say that I don't expect it to survive. It appears to practically be a lawyers wet dream as someone will get hurt (real or faked) and the lawsuits will begin.
I say stick with the 16" carbine, love your pistol or make an AR pistol with a regular tube and practice like a mofo.
Guys, wow. I'm honored. I've been reading M4C since I was f'ing boot, and I never thought I'd get to this point.
Krypto: I'll be honest, I have that in the back of mind whenever I have legal liability and product use / directions copy checked by my attorney. One of the things, in the next few weeks, that I will be determining is the maximum recommended cartridge for safe use. First order of business: 1oz slugs on an 870 with the NSN, no shit. Beyond that, it will be all about delivering effective, clear, and understandable information to customers about the limits for this device.
Are you a doctor or an expert in medical science? Who are you to decide how much pressure John Doe can take to the chin over the next few months or years of regular use? Any such determination should be made by an expert and finding one to sign the dotted line may not be easy. Liability is no longer about writing the rules well enough to keep you financially safe...it's about having enough insurance and the proper corporate structure to keep you financially safe.
With respect
With respect
The first time someone ends up with a dislocated jaw or similar injury the civil liability suit will end this product line if the lack of interest does not.
All Neal has to do is put a disclaimer on the box saying buyer assumes all risks, right?
I too applaud ingenuity. The NSN will stand on it's own two feet if it's going to, if you dont like it/dont need it..... dont buy it. Same goes for other "doo dads", Buck Mossies light mount, Magpuls BAD lever, Redimag etc etc.
If it's really an assed up piece of gear those shaking it down will figure it out and it will dissapear.
Good luck Neal!
Split66: unfortunately, in cases of gross negligence, companies can still be held liable.
Krypto: I'm definitely not an expert in medical science. I will have clear instructions, recommended cartridge limits, an effective business structure (Halix is part of an LLC), a superb product liability insurance policy, and the best attorneys available, as long as enough consumers decide that the NSN is worth the money and I can actually get this project off the ground.
Iraqgunz: I'm doing my best to prepare my company for every eventuality, including lawsuits. That said, I can't wait for you to try this thing out, sir. I think you'll like it.
Do you, and anybody else with significant industry experience, have other recommendations?
Do you, and anybody else with significant industry experience, have other recommendations?
Yes, I would strongly urge you to submit this to BATF for a ruling. Your device is designed for supported weapon contact against the body in a manner no other pistol is.
No matter how you look at it, use of a stock allows two points of contact with the body. You are simply substituting cheek and shoulder contact for cheek and chin. It still keeps two additional points of contact, while a pistol has neither.
Regarding of what happens, I strongly applaud you for getting out of the traditional mold of making weapon components which are exactly like those of everyone else.
I'm not giving you a hard time here, but I would hate to see you go into production only to lose everything.
Likewise, my comments are written only to encourage thought. Who knows, this could turn out to be the best thing since sliced bread. You could find yourself in the world of product licensing and maybe even the recipient of patent purchase offers too good to decline, if this takes off.
I even got Stickman on here...somebody shoot me. In heaven. If this takes off, I Boy Scout-swear that I'll have you take pictures for me, if you would.
Stick, I don't mean to belabor a point, but I'd like to add this, especially for future readers:
-from what the BATFE has published that I have seen, only a shoulder stock is a shoulder stock; anything else (pistol buffer tube, carbine buffer tube, rifle buffer tube, stock saddle, cane tip) is not a shoulder stock.
-a limit on points of contact to one's body is not part of any legislation or regulation
That said, I'd love to hit up the BATFE for a concrete ruling. I've met some of their folks when I worked in a gun shop (Silver Bullet Firearms in Grand Rapids, MI) and they are decent people, even if some of them literally said that they didn't like firearms to our faces. I'll draft a letter to the tech branch.
how would this do with people like me with super sensitive teeth? something as little as getting slapped in the mouth can be enough to put me into tears sometimes, I couldn't imagine repeated blows from my ar.
Kingcobra: this is how I've explained the amount of felt recoil with 5.56/300BLK and the NSN--
-Take your index and middle finger and place them directly beneath your bottom lip and inside the "groove" above your chin
-Take your other hand, and with an open palm, tap the two fingers with the amount of force that you would use to clap your hands (not a hard, crazy clap; just a normal clap, people)
-That's it. That's approximately the "tap" from firing 5.56/300BLK with an NSN.
For everybody: is that too much force for you? Let us know.
I applaud you, And welcome to the board:-) Also welcome to Michigan, I wish you the best in your endeavors, you will sell them, especially in non SBR states such as ours. Ignore the haters, every company has them.
Fetep
Neal, I strongly recommend that you do not try and classify this based on what the AFT has decided before. First your statement that only a shoulder stock is a shoulder stock is ridiculous. There is no mention of a shoulder stock anywhere in any rifle or SBR definition. There is no official definition of a shoulder stock at all.
The definition of a rifle includes the phrase "designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder", nothing about a stock or how it is fired from the shoulder.
This NSN will not make a pistol a rifle or SBR because does not remake or redesign the firearm to be fired from the shoulder (unless you chin is on your shoulder:p). The real problem comes from the possibility that adding this to a pistol will change the pistol classification to a AOW or a simple "firearm" based on the OAL. Just like adding a VFG does.
Selling this to someone who installs it on their pistol with a OAL under 26" could create a illegal AOW. Please send a sample to the ATF with intended usage and maybe a link or copy of your video and get an official determination and classification before you start selling these.
Edit to add:
Your answer to question 9 on your FAQ page is wrong:
"Q9. What about firearms that are over 26" long, have no shoulder stocks, have a barrel under 16", and were assembled by parts manufactured as a "receiver" with the BATFE?"
"A. These are considered an "other" firearm by the BATFE. Not a rifle, pistol, shotgun, AOW, SBR...an "other." They're not able to be legally concealed, and they can have a vertical grip installed. Read this letter from the BATFE for clarification, as submitted by the smart guys at Franklin Armory."
A pistol over 26" is still just a pistol UNTIL you add a VFG. Then it changes to a "firearm".
So what happens when your muzzle runs in to something when you're moving with the gun at low-ready?
iNeXile:
-Regarding Q9: thanks for the catch.
-Regarding the AOW/firearm definition ruling from the BATFE: I appreciate the advice. I will obtain a memo from the BATFE before shipping any products to customers.
From the BATFE: "However, certain alterations to a pistol or revolver, such as the addition of a second vertical handgrip, create a weapon that
no longer meets the definition of pistol or revolver." Other than a VFG, has anyone else seen any other alterations that created "a weapon that
no longer meets the definition of pistol or revolver"?
Samuse: If you hit something directly on, the NSN butts up against your face, and the foam pad absorbs most of the shock.
Kingcobra: this is how I've explained the amount of felt recoil with 5.56/300BLK and the NSN--
-Take your index and middle finger and place them directly beneath your bottom lip and inside the "groove" above your chin
-Take your other hand, and with an open palm, tap the two fingers with the amount of force that you would use to clap your hands (not a hard, crazy clap; just a normal clap, people)
-That's it. That's approximately the "tap" from firing 5.56/300BLK with an NSN.
For everybody: is that too much force for you? Let us know.
Maybe you should talk to Goody's for investment purposes? You could include a lifetime supply of headache powder with each purchase. :D
medicman816
09-01-12, 20:22
Would first like to say that I stopped reading after the first page, so if this was already mentioned I apologize. That said:
This thing has root canal written all over it. Believe it or not the roots of your front teeth are rather long. By the looks of it this thing sits direct over top of them. This is coming from someone who has ended up with a root canal on a lower front tooth cause by a relatively minor impact (from a toothbrush, long story). A little while later my dentist discovers a fractured front root. The procedure is relatively painless, the wait to see then dentist was not. And at around $500 a pop, not cheap. Because of this, I personally wouldn't try It, not even once. Sorry.
iNeXile:
-Regarding Q9: thanks for the catch.
-Regarding the AOW/firearm definition ruling from the BATFE: I appreciate the advice. I will obtain a memo from the BATFE before shipping any products to customers.
From the BATFE: "However, certain alterations to a pistol or revolver, such as the addition of a second vertical handgrip, create a weapon that
no longer meets the definition of pistol or revolver." Other than a VFG, has anyone else seen any other alterations that created "a weapon that
no longer meets the definition of pistol or revolver"?
Samuse: If you hit something directly on, the NSN butts up against your face, and the foam pad absorbs most of the shock.
As for changing a pistol through alteration I can add:
Stock:D, smooth bore barrel, "wallet" holster, belt buckle mount, or anything that camouflages the firearm while allowing it to still fire. Any alteration to make it a machinegun (Glock 17/18 conversion...)
There is also various state restrictions, OAL (30" in your state of MI) and barrel length (over 12" in my state of TN) that I know of.
I do personally think that the ATF will rule your NSN does not change the pistol classification (just like the CCA stock saddle) but it's nothing I would bet on. Good to play it safe.
I understand about 98% of ATF rulings, classifications and the reasoning behind them, it's the 2% that makes me say WTF.
K.L. Davis
09-01-12, 21:54
Neal...
This is free, unsolicited advice... so take it for what it is worth.
1. I honestly feel that it will not survive first contact from a personal injury lawsuit, and you can bet that the first time someone lets their 14 year old son with a severe underbite shoot this... there will be a PI suit.
2. I have seen many times when a person/company interpreted the Federal Firearms Laws... and much to their chagrin, their interpretation was different from that of the Regulatory Agency's. The ATF can issue opinions, and change their mind on them just like that... you can bet they can change their mind on your opinion even faster. I strongly encourage you to get an opinion from the Tech Branch.
Please let me know via private message if you would like me to expand on this...
Seconded.
I'm not a lawyer and never even played on on TV, so I've got nothing firm to agree with Kino above, but after seeing the McDonald's coffee incident play out...
The ATF Tech Branch will be a necessity. No one wants to see you get hammered on this, and this is strictly my personal recommendation. BUT (and there is always a but) the possible penalties both financially and worse are are risk. IF the Tech Branch decides that it is infact a method of stock, then you are FUBAR. My belief is that they will view this as a method to circumvent the SBR laws, laws they are already trying to squeeze. My guess is they will say it effects the same purpose as a stock and thus creates a SBR, or AOW.
lifebreath
09-01-12, 22:23
Kingcobra: this is how I've explained the amount of felt recoil with 5.56/300BLK and the NSN--
-Take your index and middle finger and place them directly beneath your bottom lip and inside the "groove" above your chin
-Take your other hand, and with an open palm, tap the two fingers with the amount of force that you would use to clap your hands (not a hard, crazy clap; just a normal clap, people)
-That's it. That's approximately the "tap" from firing 5.56/300BLK with an NSN.
For everybody: is that too much force for you? Let us know.
Yes, actually, it is, but then again I'm almost 50 ... Regardless, that amount of repetitive force will, in my opinion, without a doubt create damage over time to the temporomandibular joint.
I actually believe you about being easy to shoot, especially from various positions. I just simulated the concept, and think it would be very intuitive and simple to use from odd positions.
Good luck, and even if it does or doesn't pan out, keep the creative spirit and drive.
Since its intended as a SBR replacement I am curious as to how well it works vs pushing the "pistol" against a sling?
A single point mounted to the receiver extension just seems like a much safer, easier, more practical, less damaging, and likely all around better technique. I listed safety and damaging separate with the thought of safety being instant major injury and damaging being something more like tooth wear (much like teeth grinding, biting fishing line, etc).
Not that I want to take sides (at least currently), although I do think it is a high risk item, will never buy one, will never use one.
MidwestRookie
09-01-12, 22:53
Like the bump-fire stock, I most likely won't be trying this out, but I do like a good story and am interested in how the ATF views it.
I have to say, I never would have imagined something like this so it gets cool points for that. However, my teeth are tingling after just watching the video..seems like you'd need something like a padded chinstrap to help the teeth/roots not get so beat up.
Either way..looking forward to seeing how this all turns out. Good luck. :)
I think that anyone who has run some serious close quarters training can tell you that they have at some point in time taken some serious jarring of the weapon that went for the most part unnoticed and absorbed into the shoulder. Even a trip or stumble where the mounted weapon muzzle struck something hard. That same type of shock into the chin, not so sure the results would be so unnoticed. Also from a DT or combatives standpoint, if that device is chin rested at a time that I plant your weapon into your face your in big trouble. Either of the mentioned scenarios are going to cause a serious broken jaw or worse. I have had my jaw broken twice and just from the look of the video, there is a good likelihood that I would have some serious lock jaw issues after a hard day of running such a device. Just some things to think about.
ETA - I just wanted to mention that I really appreciate the thought process and desire to come up with new and innovative products, so I am not trying to be overly negative, but my first impressions are not positive about the product. I will also note that just from a video and pictures it is truly difficult to get the full picture. Also thanks for having BT and DT! :)
Slvr Surfr
09-02-12, 07:21
+1, good luck with your product Neal!
Neal,
Very professional, courteous, and informative reply to this topic and about yourself as well. I would love to try this out one day and see how I feel about it. Welcome to M4C and I wish you and your company the best of luck. Looking forward to more videos and other user feedback.
-Jax
Thanks for the replies, guys.
-I mentioned this just a little earlier, but yes, I will send a letter this Monday to the BATFE tech branch, in order to see if they will create a new interpretation of existing regulations/laws for the NSN. If that's so...I'll go the way of the dodo bird and be done with this. If not, then hopefully I'll get a few more orders.:D
-Surf, and others: I understand your concerns about DT/combatives/room clearing. I'm compiling a list of stuff to include in the next video, and that issue will be addressed.
Two things I can say about your thoughts, though:
-considering this device is designed for 6-8" barreled pistols, the chances of muzzle thumping stuff during CQB is greatly lessened. It's hella fun to run around with a tiny gun like this, and I wish I had it when I was overseas.
-a "high ready" position *could include the NSN off the chin, and I will talk about that on the next vid
Neal,
At least you didn't reinvent the charging handle ;)
I'd like to give it a try when I get back just for shitz and gigz.
Regardless, good to see you on M4C man.
I applaud you for your ingenuity; this is definitely thinking outside the box. Two concerns. First, I agree with others that before you move ahead with production, you should submit a sample to ATF Tech Branch for their official blessing that this is not a stock and does not constitute an SBR. Second, as an ENT Surgeon who handles facial trauma, I believe it to be a poor idea to have one's mandible intentionally absorbing the recoil of every shot. I understand that you have a large number of rounds through yours and have allowed others to try it as well. From your previous description this is not a scientific sample or test. There are certain to be unintended consequences. And with regard to using this with a twelve gauge, that is a bad idea and very well could result in a mandible fracture.
ForTehNguyen
09-02-12, 10:38
have the feeling ATF would classify this as an AOW
yossarian42
09-02-12, 10:52
Any unnatural repetitive force on the body over time can cause issues. I didn't have a problem carrying a 30lb bag at work in my hand every day until I developed tendinitis in my wrists. 30lbs doesn't sound heavy, but it's constant strain on the tendons in the wrist repeated everyday over the course of a 8-12 hour day. Point being repetitive. The recoil might feel surprisingly light now, but check your jaw/neck in a couple months.
Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk
JoshNC: I like professional advice like that. Thanks.
Since this device is designed for 6.8SPC on down, I was going to show how it mitigated recoil well enough to be safe on higher powered cartridges. But, there's no sense potentially getting hurt to prove a point. I will have clear warnings on future videos that the NSN is for light recoiling cartridges, and I have added it more clearly to my website.
I'll skip the shotgun stuff and instead work on getting clear documentation of other user's experiences with light-recoiling cartridges.
CaptainDooley
09-02-12, 11:32
I can't help but think of the device that Steve Martin's character invented in the Jerk to fix a problem with wearing glasses that later was revealed to cause one to go cross eyed.
Optigrab
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=I4521823879758532&pid=1.8&w=231&h=137&c=7&rs=1
That's wrong guys.
But I still smiled. The Jerk reference was great.
Cool to see a product like this coming from my home state.
If I am ever in GR (which happens occasionally), is there a way to get a hold of you to try it out?
Keep up the good work Neal. Curious to hear the ruling from the BATFE.
-fixit69: I laughed too. I'll be sure to wear a pair of glasses like those in the next video.
-Chadil!ac: PM me and we can set something up.
I'm looking forward to the BATFE decision, too. I just finished the letter. Would somebody be willing to read the PDF and let me know if I'm clear enough? I plan on sending this tomorrow.
http://www.halix.co/nsnlettertobatfe.pdf
I would:
Change this: Although I have read through the available BATFE literature and opinions and have not seen
anything related to this concept, I write to you because other firearms industry representatives have
recommended that I seek your opinion on this matter.
To this: I have read through the available BATFE literature/opinions and have not been able to find anything related to this concept. I write to you in search of your professional opinion as you are the authority on such matters.
Make this a new paragraph and hope it doesn't open up a can of brain eating zombie worms:
Although I have put the accessory for sale online
as a pre-order, I will not ship any orders or test and evaluation units until I receive an opinion from
your branch, and I will refund all orders from customers if this device is determined to change the
classification of a Title 1 firearm into a Title II firearm.
Be ready for a new world of red tape and hassle to open up. If the BATFE is like any other government agency, you will have endless hoops to jump through. starting my wife's home based cake business cost me three years of my life in stress... :D
Hopefully someone else with experience in these types of matters will chime in with much better advice.
Since this device is designed for 6.8SPC on down, I was going to show how it mitigated recoil well enough to be safe on higher powered cartridges.
Judging how my SBR 6.8SPC recoils, I'd HATE to feel that type of recoil on my jaw. Just my .02
Does not look practical for long term military type engagements. I can only imagine that after several hundred rounds your jaw bone may start with negative side effects.
As former military, I cannot say that having no stock provides a tactical advantage. Also stocks are used to butt stroke people in the head :)
I think that anyone who has run some serious close quarters training can tell you that they have at some point in time taken some serious jarring of the weapon that went for the most part unnoticed and absorbed into the shoulder. Even a trip or stumble where the mounted weapon muzzle struck something hard. That same type of shock into the chin, not so sure the results would be so unnoticed. Also from a DT or combatives standpoint, if that device is chin rested at a time that I plant your weapon into your face your in big trouble. Either of the mentioned scenarios are going to cause a serious broken jaw or worse. I have had my jaw broken twice and just from the look of the video, there is a good likelihood that I would have some serious lock jaw issues after a hard day of running such a device. Just some things to think about.
ETA - I just wanted to mention that I really appreciate the thought process and desire to come up with new and innovative products, so I am not trying to be overly negative, but my first impressions are not positive about the product. I will also note that just from a video and pictures it is truly difficult to get the full picture. Also thanks for having BT and DT! :)
This. If this is intended to be a hard use piece of equipment, there will be running and shooting, bumping into things, etc. I can't see this being anything but painful, and more importantly disorienting and distracting. The pain is NOT the issue, being able to actively participate in a gunfight with something recoiling back into your face is the issue. I don't think I could do it.
Also, while I do agree with you that the ATF "should" rule with you that this is an acceptable piece of equipment that doesn't violate any rules..... Well, they don't have a tract record that exemplifies common sense.
Sorry, I'd rather save 50 bucks and just get a tax stamp.
I can see how it's intended as a work around for no-SBR states, but other than that I don't see the point. Plus I certainly don't want the repetitive stress to my jaw/neck area.
I can't disagree with the criticisms brought up in this thread so far, but with that said, I still wish you best of luck and hope you continue innovating and thinking out of the box. While IMO this is just too gimmicky, maybe your next one will truly be innovative and useful across a broad spectrum.
With all the .22's out there now...I'll bet at the very least it would work out in that application...
Clobbersauras
09-03-12, 10:27
Well I guess if someone doesn't want to go through the hassle of a tax stamp this thing might be an option....
But, if you watch the video again, notice how much the muzzle moves on recoil. It's not a stable shooting position for sure and it looks just marginally better than just using both hands. It would be better if you made a device that rests on your forehead (can't believe I just wrote that). Just sayin'.
Also, you might want to supply a mouth guard with every unit.
Seriously.
Best of luck with it.
Kingcobra: this is how I've explained the amount of felt recoil with 5.56/300BLK and the NSN--
-Take your index and middle finger and place them directly beneath your bottom lip and inside the "groove" above your chin
-Take your other hand, and with an open palm, tap the two fingers with the amount of force that you would use to clap your hands (not a hard, crazy clap; just a normal clap, people)
-That's it. That's approximately the "tap" from firing 5.56/300BLK with an NSN.
For everybody: is that too much force for you? Let us know.
Two things:
1.) My girlfriend walked in while I was doing the above demonstration.
2.) After following your directions above, I feel confident in saying that any prolonged use of this device will result in tooth/gum damage. I did thirty repetitions and I did not enjoy the sensation after the fact. My jaw muscles would be quite sore after a few mags. I agree that some PI suits are very likely.
You're creative, and that's the key to success in the absolutely flooded AR-15 aftermarket. Just realize that not all your ideas will be winners. In fact, many of them probably won't be. Don't be discouraged. Keep it up!
wtheesfeld
09-03-12, 16:01
You're creative, and that's the key to success in the absolutely flooded AR-15 aftermarket. Just realize that not all your ideas will be winners. In fact, many of them probably won't be. Don't be discouraged. Keep it up!
This.
Don't give up in general, but the face stock is just not the idea that is going to work.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
I wonder if it would be better if you made a mouth-piece stock that you actually bite down on?
I do quite a bit of boxing/mma and a mouth-piece really helps out for taking impact to the face.
Jus sayin'...
I wonder if it would be better if you made a mouth-piece stock that you actually bite down on?
I do quite a bit of boxing/mma and a mouth-piece really helps out for taking impact to the face.
Jus sayin'...
... and as we were progressing down the hallway, the suspect swung open the door of the room he was concealed in which in turn impacted the muzzle of officer Smith's weapon, which resulted in the stock of said weapon being driven through his teeth, breaking most off along with fracturing his jaw, and then continued onward to the back of his throat with sufficient force to cause the basal skull fracture that the medic on hand believe had likely killed him on the spot.
Full report to follow upon completion of full medical autopsy...
This.
Don't give up in general, but the face stock is just not the idea that is going to work.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
and now your product has a name
yossarian42
09-03-12, 18:38
What about a piece that works in conjunction with the face stock that you wear that either attaches to a helmet or some other way that the stock will rest against, instead of directly against your face. The two parts could be shaped in such a way that they guide each other into one another easily. Just an idea.
Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk
Let me know if this changes anyone's mind. http://youtu.be/QbkrrbjgHLo
wtheesfeld
09-03-12, 20:08
Let me know if this changes anyone's mind. http://youtu.be/QbkrrbjgHLo
Didn't. Truly I'm sorry but I'm sure I'm not just speaking for myself when I say this just isn't "it"
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
I don't have an AR pistol. If I did, I would sure give it a try.
wtheesfeld
09-03-12, 20:31
[QUOTE=yossarian42;1385729]What about a piece that works in conjunction with the face stock that you wear that either attaches to a helmet or some other way that the stock will rest against, instead of directly against your face. The two parts could be shaped in such a way that they guide each other into one another easily. Just an idea.
13454
This didn't do so well either
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
SpankMonkey
09-03-12, 20:43
Let me know if this changes anyone's mind. http://youtu.be/QbkrrbjgHLo
I have to give it to you, you are thinking outside the box. The above video goes a long way in showing that your device works. Time will tell.
I hope you sell a ton of these if it does not cause injury.
NSN, nice play on words, or should I say acronyms. Maybe it should come with an Adams Apple adapter for the more masochistic types.
Magic_Salad0892
09-03-12, 23:48
NSN, nice play on words, or should I say acronyms. Maybe it should come with an Adams Apple adapter for the more masochistal types.
Technically it's only an acronym if you pronounce it as another word.
Example:
SEAL = acronym.
FBI = not so much.
Appreviation.
:p
The Muzzle Flip was pretty exaggerated with the NSN, the chin/jaw brace clearly does not offer the same support as the shoulder (duh).
I have zero interest, but hey I applaud you for trying, and wish you the best.
I applaud you for thinking outside the box.
There are several downsides to the NSN as mentioned above.
… a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
the chin stock affects the "when held in one hand" aspect of the defintion of a handgun therfore making the AR15 pistol into an AOW.
… any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, . . . . . .
I'm not even going to reply to this thread....
I'm not even going to reply to this thread....
Too late.
wtheesfeld
09-04-12, 12:57
I'm not even going to reply to this thread....
You sir, deserve a beer
yossarian42
09-04-12, 13:10
Slogan idea "the NSN... Like riding a pogo stick with your face"
Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk
You guys crack me up. I'll be sure to include the pogo stick line in our next press release.
@SC-Texas: we'll see what the Tech Branch says. I sent them a letter this morning.
SpankMonkey
09-04-12, 17:50
I'm not even going to reply to this thread....
OH COME ON! We have been waiting all week for you to post. :D
SW-Shooter
09-04-12, 21:29
I'm waiting for the lawsuits from end users that suffer repeated brain trauma.
You aren't taking into consideration that the shooter is repeatedly having their head pushed back, like being popped in the chin by a jab, over, and over again. Even though 5.56 doesn't generate a lot of recoil, the shooter is still absorbing each shot by their jaw, which in my knowledge of basic anatomy has a direct effect on the heads movement, thus the brain receives the recoil impulses as well.
At least with a stock, the recoil is absorbed by the shoulder and not the head. Nice idea, but not good unless you want Parkinson's disease down the road.
OH COME ON! We have been waiting all week for you to post. :D
He must've took his meds or something. Normally he'd jump at an opportunity to add his remarks on a thread like this.
p22shooter30
09-05-12, 12:29
how does this work with a chew in your mouth?
how does this work with a chew in your mouth?
A new rush of flavor with each round fired!
Also, I am curious to what FFL status Halix has or needs to test these type of designs. I am not to up on the laws, but if ruled a short barrel or AOW, wouldn't the ATF have ability to charge the average inventor type. If someone more knowledgeable could opine...
Stay safe, and stay out of legal trouble.
Also, I am curious to what FFL status Halix has or needs to test these type of designs. I am not to up on the laws, but if ruled a short barrel or AOW, wouldn't the ATF have ability to charge the average inventor type. If someone more knowledgeable could opine...
Stay safe, and stay out of legal trouble.
Well, honestly a 07 FFL with SOT...
wtheesfeld
09-05-12, 19:37
Think of the possibilities with the face stock©....
Simulated earthquake combat drills.
Think of the possibilities with the face stock©....
Simulated earthquake combat drills.
What does this comment add to this thread?
Wrong or right Neal is trying to think outside the box. There is nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with constructive criticism. Yours is not constructive.
-Jax
wtheesfeld
09-05-12, 20:30
What does this comment add to this thread?
Wrong or right Neal is trying to think outside the box. There is nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong with constructive criticism. Yours is not constructive.
-Jax
The first few pages of this thread are nothing but constructive criticism, none of which has been heeded in any way. It has all been shrugged off as good natured ribbing and has basically proven to be pointless.
That being said, you are correct about my comment. It is uncalled for and childish. If I can't say anything constructive I shouldn't say anything, especially not childish humor at the expense of someone's idea or thought.
Neal, I hope you accept this apology for that comment.
Jax, thank you for injecting humanity back into this thread, and showing me that I should think before hitting the post button.
From a business protection stand point I would not promote it in any way related to SBR, but stick with it as pistol use only and keep a wall between the Glock version and AR pistol version. I agree with others it will be a hard sell (price) and niche market. The price should be no more than the price of a decent stock, IMO. You need to either forget cost recovery pricing from R&D/Proto or price it for reasonable sales if it passes BATFE, which I suspect it would in the AR pistol format. I completely disagree with others who think this in anyway violates ATF wording as to pistol or AOW, it clearly does not. A VFG certainly does and even that has been worked around (other category) in CA per BATFE of all places, but this is not a hand grip device. Nor is it significantly more stable than push/pull with a 1-pt cheek weld on the buffer. I see no reason for them to even notice it as it only locates the buffer tube on ones face. I'd be more concerned with the Glock version appearing "stock" like and adding a stability that does not inherently exists - certainly that's egging them on to find exception. Good luck at any rate and I appreciate your creative energy and determination.
kaiservontexas
09-05-12, 23:18
Interesting concept as a go around to the idea of the AR as a pistol.
As for that statement praise ends. I agree with many others who are concerned not only of legal ramifications with the BATFE, but also with personal injury.
Also despite the praise for being a go around . . . seriously? In a century plus of firearms development nobody has ever bothered. My jaw and teeth do not exist to absorb shock. The shoulder is a more natural inclination, but not always even polite in that regard, which depends on caliber. (I may have fun with my .30-06, but I know with a .50BMG there is a big difference in dealing with it. Truth is .300WM is my threshold for comfort and being able to really deal with it. All the same I like the SKS but hate the 7.62x39mm AKM when it comes to recoil and my shoulder.) I would hate to imagine the beating my face's jawline would take after firing many rounds of ammunition at the firing line.
Ok, I know I took a crap on your idea. Forgive me if it causes an offense to pride. My point is I see no real use need for such a product. By it's design it lacks out of the gate. In fact the AR pistol is just a toy to begin with, and yes it sucks that the 2nd Amendment is not obeyed. An SBR would make way more sense for people who need or would even just like such a set up.
BTW: I am no expert. I am a hobbyist. Yeah I have experienced some crap. Thank God nothing more, and heaven forbid any of us experience horrors period. The above though in the end is just my opinion. In fact I just make this my sig line. I know professionals exists on this board, which is why I enjoy it. Forgive me if I step on toes.
The first few pages of this thread are nothing but constructive criticism, none of which has been heeded in any way. It has all been shrugged off as good natured ribbing and has basically proven to be pointless.
That being said, you are correct about my comment. It is uncalled for and childish. If I can't say anything constructive I shouldn't say anything, especially not childish humor at the expense of someone's idea or thought.
Neal, I hope you accept this apology for that comment.
Jax, thank you for injecting humanity back into this thread, and showing me that I should think before hitting the post button.
Wow..wasn't expecting that reply. No problem here bud. This thread has gotten a little silly in making fun of this concept. Appreciate your comment.
-Jax
how does this work with a chew in your mouth?
The most disqualifying factor this thread
Watching the heads of the people in the video, I wonder physiologically what happens. After 500 rounds will people have a headache? Is this prone to causing trauma to the cervical vertebra/disks/nerves/joints to the TMJ through repeated stresses?
A few people firing a few dozen rounds is nothing. I wonder what would happen in the long-term after a few years of firing 5-10,000 rounds a year or more.
Medically, are there risks or complications from the repeated trauma, slight thought may SEEM from the "I don't hurt" standpoint.
skullworks
09-06-12, 05:46
Since I've always considered AR pistols to be mostly a novelty item (wright or wrong) the question is how many rounds will actually be fired through any firearm fitted with the NSN? For a low round-count weapon that was purchased only cause it looks cool, and is only taken to the range once a year to be fed its annual magazine, the danger for long-term wear or damage due to repeated impact should be next to nil.
As others have stated though, I can see personal injury lawsuits getting prepped all over the intrawebs...
Since I've always considered AR pistols to be mostly a novelty item (wright or wrong) the question is how many rounds will actually be fired through any firearm fitted with the NSN? For a low round-count weapon that was purchased only cause it looks cool, and is only taken to the range once a year to be fed its annual magazine, the danger for long-term wear or damage due to repeated impact should be next to nil.
As others have stated though, I can see personal injury lawsuits getting prepped all over the intrawebs...
Why waste money on it at all if it's "just for looks" and won't be shot much? You can spray and pray with the AR-pistol just fine sans any stock device, save a buffer-tube.
skullworks
09-06-12, 05:59
Why waste money on it at all if it's "just for looks" and won't be shot much? You can spray and pray with the AR-pistol just fine sans any stock device, save a buffer-tube.
Well, there are plenty of firearms and gadgets that people will sink money into for no other reason than "hey, it looks badass!" or "I had to have it." As to the AR-pistol and the NSN: I'm not a member of their preferred customer demographic so I cannot explain why would someone would chose to buy either of these products.... ;)
Well, there are plenty of firearms and gadgets that people will sink money into for no other reason than "hey, it looks badass!" or "I had to have it." As to the AR-pistol and the NSN: I'm not a member of their preferred customer demographic so I cannot explain why would someone would chose to buy either of these products.... ;)
I did not get the impression that it was intended to be "mall-ninja" gear, but rather the inventor is championing it as a serious piece of equipment for serious use. All of his promotional material is geared toward saying "This is a legitimate piece of gear, and it will improve your capabilities".
Either he is a liar and misrepresenting himself, or he really does mean this to be USED. I would never presume to call him a liar, as I do not know him, and based just on what I have seen thus far, think that would be extremely rude, so unless I have misunderstood---this is a piece of gear to be used extensively. Not a novelty item.
skullworks
09-06-12, 06:27
I would say that a lot of mall-ninja gear is marketed as intended for hard use. Product description and marketing does not always show who the manufacturer actually expects will purchase the product.
I would say that a lot of mall-ninja gear is marketed as intended for hard use. Product description and marketing does not always show who the manufacturer actually expects will purchase the product.
That wasn't the vibe I got from the inventor in any of his promotional material, but I concede that you are correct about intent being impossible to truly know.
skullworks
09-06-12, 06:46
That wasn't the vibe I got from the inventor in any of his promotional material, but I concede that you are correct about intent being impossible to truly know.
Well, I guess that goes back to my previous question; how many AR-pistols are being used in a "hard use" role?
@WS6 and Skullworks:
I'm pushing for the NSN and pistol to be taken seriously. I have no interest in selling mall ninja crap (that is: wasted gear). I expect the device to be used for hard training and real world use. I will let professional reviewers decide whether or not this thing is up to the task, and then I'll post those reviews, good or bad, on M4C.
skullworks
09-06-12, 08:15
Neal, could you please explain how you see this product being used in the real world?
wtheesfeld
09-06-12, 08:21
Neal, could please explain how you see this product being used in the real world?
And how during a firefight in real world use people could communicate vocally with their team? Calling out threats while firing, etc?
On a side note I'd like someone in law enforcement or military, etc about the use of ar15 pistols in the real world. Is this pistol ar15 ever used by any agency in any capability?
To me, this product looks like an intellectual accomplishment with a niche market in mind.
skullworks
09-06-12, 10:30
Let's begin by asking ourselves who would chose to use an AR pistol for real world use rather than a pistol, SMG or SBR?
My guess would be, if there is such a clientele, someone who wants the 5.56-punch in a small package and who intends to carry the firearm in such a way that a stock would add too much bulk (ie they intend to carry it underneath a coat or similar). Then, if this would be the case, wouldn't the NSN add too much width to the firearm, making it more uncomfortable to carry and harder to conceal than a SBR?
Also, if you're carrying the weapon concealed, then you're most likely already using some sort of sling; wouldn't it be easier to just use the old push/pull technique, and if needed just let the buffer tube touch the side of your cheek so that you can see your Aimpoint? And unless you're using a magnified sight, it won't matter if your head is 5 or 15 inches from the sight as long as you see that little red dot (and why would you chose to put a magnified scope on an AR pistol - or carry it in such a manner?).
I'm sorry, but I just have a hard time seeing what real world role the NSN fills.
threeheadeddog
09-06-12, 10:52
I didnt see it mentioned, though might have missed it. The AR (pistol/rifle) is a very broad product. What happens when someone uses this on a non 5.56 gun(.458 socom/.450 bush/.500 beu).
wtheesfeld,
From the LE perspective, I had a specific mission need for a VSBR. That is 8" barrel on standard Colt lower. No AR pistol in the world would have filled the need. Mil wise, I have never seen shooters with anything shorter than the MK18 length barrel. That is not to say that there isn't some out there.
skullworks
09-06-12, 11:12
I didnt see it mentioned, though might have missed it. The AR (pistol/rifle) is a very broad product. What happens when someone uses this on a non 5.56 gun(.458 socom/.450 bush/.500 beu).
It's not recommended for anything over 5.56 = "mama gonna knock you out!" ;)
wtheesfeld
09-06-12, 11:14
wtheesfeld,
From the LE perspective, I had a specific mission need for a VSBR. That is 8" barrel on standard Colt lower. No AR pistol in the world would have filled the need. Mil wise, I have never seen shooters with anything shorter than the MK18 length barrel. That is not to say that there isn't some out there.
Thank you! I wasn't aware that LE/mil used anything except standard length ar types.
nineteenkilo
09-06-12, 13:39
Thank you! I wasn't aware that LE/mil used anything except standard length ar types.
All the time. Weapons are frequently adapted to mission specific parameters in larger departments where they have in-house armorers that actually have a clue.
@everyone:
-You can still talk with your face touching the NSN. I'll include that with the next video.
-It's not that wide. I can still throw this in a backpack, in the back of a vehicle, or whatever. A plus is the receivers don't simply rest on the ground, now, and let in foreign debris.
-It's been tested with 5.56/300BLK. Will test up to 6.8SPC before long.
-There will be extensive documentation with every unit sold about the maximum recommended cartridge limits.
-This new shooting technique is much better than push/pull for the majority of users, and it doesn't require wearing a really tight sling that only allows a limited range of motion and extra training.
-If this ever gets accepted, then I expect that the first people to adopt this would be departments/teams that never saw the need for SBRs/SMGs before or couldn't carry them because of red tape, since the NSN is designed to be attached to regular pistols.
That, or if the reviews are as good as I'm hoping, then some teams may completely switch from stocks to the NSN, due to the device making aiming, shooting, and moving more intuitive for most shooters, not interfering with armor, and adapting to any size shooter without modification. We'll see.
Also, I'm more fond of shooting long range with the NSN now, due to not needing to worry about my torso/shoulder position and not having breathing affect my aiming as much. Since any length barrel can be attached to the pistol receiver, I could see teams (who face the red tape over BATFE registration) adopting this platform and simply swapping out uppers for different situations.
Thank you for the feedback. -Neal
Let's begin by asking ourselves who would chose to use an AR pistol for real world use rather than a pistol, SMG or SBR?
My guess would be, if there is such a clientele, someone who wants the 5.56-punch in a small package and who intends to carry the firearm in such a way that a stock would add too much bulk (ie they intend to carry it underneath a coat or similar). Then, if this would be the case, wouldn't the NSN add too much width to the firearm, making it more uncomfortable to carry and harder to conceal than a SBR?
Also, if you're carrying the weapon concealed, then you're most likely already using some sort of sling; wouldn't it be easier to just use the old push/pull technique, and if needed just let the buffer tube touch the side of your cheek so that you can see your Aimpoint? And unless you're using a magnified sight, it won't matter if your head is 5 or 15 inches from the sight as long as you see that little red dot (and why would you chose to put a magnified scope on an AR pistol - or carry it in such a manner?).
I'm sorry, but I just have a hard time seeing what real world role the NSN fills.
The owner has been very upfront that this is designed for AR PISTOLS. He isn't saying it's ideal to be mounted on M16s.
When would someone use an AR pistol over an SBR? Well, here in MI (where Halix is located) we CAN NOT have SBRs. Not just that, we CAN NOT have loaded rifles in our vehicles. However, we can have loaded pistols (even the AR type).
I'm not sold on the concept, but I can see several applications for it. For example, I'm forced to drive through Crack Central Detroit, Michigan. I can have A) a G19 on my lap or B) a loaded AR pistol on my lap. Most would want option B.
In this situation, the push / pull sling method wouldn't help if I had to fire out of my vehicle. The NSN could POSSIBLY provide a solution.
Again, I'm not for or against this product at this point. However, I can see why it was designed. I have no connection to Halix. The owner ordered some gear awhile back from us for his training company. I didn't make the connection, and have never spoken to him personally (someone here in Invoicing did at one point though - well before the NSN).
I don't think this device is the second coming of Christ, but I will admit I am intrigued simply because of the laws here in Michigan. I'm heading out to Halix's neck of the woods in November, and I'll see about trying it. Should the ATF give it the green light (and possibly the price come down a bit), I could see it having a market at least here in MI (and possibly other non-SBR states).
As for Mil / LE running it, it depends on a lot of things. For example, some departments around here will issue a full auto M4A1 lower with Mk18 upper to their SRT guys. Other departments only allow what an officer purchases personally. So in situation #2, I could see an officer possibly using the NSN if he desires a barrel under 14.5".
Time will tell. If I am able to meet up with Neal in the near future and shoot this thing, I will give honest feedback. I try very hard to be completely unbiased in life. But I can certainly say the intentions of this product do not appear to be "mall ninja affiliated".
ennbeegunny15
09-08-12, 21:17
Looks like something they'd use here in Cali, for an AR pistol. But I cannot imagine that would be very comfortable. Having been smacked in the nose with the charging handle while shooting an AR pistol I can only imagine what that would do to ones mouth or jaw.
Well it's interesting. I wouldn't mind trying one out! I live in Grand Rapids too btw, cough cough! ;)
That said, I don't get why everyone is saying it looks like it would hurt or wouldn't be comfortable. These rifles are primarily chambered in .223/5.56mm, not .300 WinMag. They don't have that much recoil. I highly doubt this would hurt.
With your antics in this thread and others you are skating on thin ice. Knock it off or the black Chinook will be here to extract you.
You got to be kidding me..he is the only one that speaks truth. Call a turd a turd and let's move on.
AND if the inventor thinks he is going to slap that on an AR pistol and avoid NFA, he is dreaming. Why not send it to the technical branch first instead of sending up trial balloons all over the net.
justlikeanyoneelse
09-09-12, 03:11
I, like others, respect your professionalism and guts in personally defending/promoting your NSN.
Aside from the previously mentioned legal and practical issues, I would like to bring up another major subject...price.
On your website, the pre-order price for a NSN is $249.98, and in your NSN description, "The invention consists of two main components: a stainless steel bracket, which mounts directly to a variety of firearms, and dual impact-absorbing foam pads, which mount to the rear of the bracket."
No disrespect intended but If you were in my shoes would you pay $249.98 for a stainless steel bracket and two foam pads?
@justlikeanyoneelse:
-If I were in your shoes, I'd have to look at the value added to my capabilities by purchasing any accessory.
Since there haven't been any reviews by professional gun blogs / magazines on the NSN, yet, it may be harder to see the value in this product at this time.
Would I pay $369.98 (or even $449.98 for the dipped version) for the SlideFire stock? Sure, if I saw the value in it; now, I personally don't, so it doesn't matter to me. I've heard through the grapevine that the few pieces of plastic cost less than $20/unit, but it delivers a unique experience, and people are buying it by the tens of thousands.
What you don't know yet, because the NSN hasn't been reviewed, is what experience the part delivers. It's less of a a direct replacement for a shoulder stock and more of a new aiming concept for pistols. So, I hope you and others don't look at it and directly say: NSN = stock, and assign value accordingly.
Other people are seeing the value in the NSN without the professional reviews, and they've pre-ordered. But, I think most people are going to wait until big name dudes say it ain't crap, and I don't blame them.
Again, everybody, let loose. Tell me how you really feel.
wtheesfeld
09-09-12, 14:57
Again, everybody, let loose. Tell me how you really feel.
Go back to Page 1 of this thread and start reading from there.
You have ignored every rational, polite piece of advice offered to you for a period of days, and played off what people "really feel" as joking around.
Someone just asked you how you validate your obscene price tag on this mess you've stepped in. You cited them the price of another pointless product on the market. Do you mean that if morons will pay that much for one piece of crap, they will pay it for yours too?
Seriously, go back and read the original couple of pages of comments. Back when this thread was civil, and you were just asking for advice, and not defending this turd to the bitter end.
http://www.history.com/shows/modern-marvels/videos/edisons-failed-inventions#edisons-failed-inventions
And if you want to selectively ignore criticism, stop asking for input. If you are looking for an atta-boy or anything, don't get your hopes up. I haven't seen anything positive and i doubt I will.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
I should have added a smiley face. I was being sarcastic, and I'm serious, just let me know what you think about this and how it could be improved.
I don't believe I've ignored anybody's questions or comments, yet, unless they were personal attacks.
"Since any length barrel can be attached to the pistol receiver, I could see teams (who face the red tape over BATFE registration) adopting this platform and simply swapping out uppers for different situations."
Seriously? What teams have you heard of that are not able to deploy SBR's due ot the ATF? Most agencies that limit SBR use is a internal issue, nothing to do with the ATF. You cannot be suggesting that a agency would approve this for duty use. Not no but hell no.
wtheesfeld
09-09-12, 15:49
I should have added a smiley face. I was being sarcastic, and I'm serious, just let me know what you think about this and how it could be improved.
Whatever.
You have reinvented the AR platform. I cannot believe stoner didn't think of this. You have created an unstoppable fighting system. You are a tactical god.
I, like others, respect your professionalism and guts in personally defending/promoting your NSN.
Aside from the previously mentioned legal and practical issues, I would like to bring up another major subject...price.
On your website, the pre-order price for a NSN is $249.98, and in your NSN description, "The invention consists of two main components: a stainless steel bracket, which mounts directly to a variety of firearms, and dual impact-absorbing foam pads, which mount to the rear of the bracket."
No disrespect intended but If you were in my shoes would you pay $249.98 for a stainless steel bracket and two foam pads?
ummmm....yea that^ For $250 it should come with someone else's mouth to bust up too.
wtheesfeld
09-09-12, 15:51
ummmm....yea that^ For $250 it should come with someone else's face to bust up too.
He's probably a dentist.
SWATcop556
09-09-12, 16:15
I think this on has run its course.
Grand58742
09-09-12, 16:17
just let me know what you think about this and how it could be improved.
Okay, here's the most pressing questions that I have not seen answered yet...
What are the long term medical problems that can (and will) come about from using this device?
What current medical problems would prohibit a person from using this device and have they been identified by a reputable medical professional?
You say there are or will be maximum limits for cartridges...what are those and why weren't they identified prior to you putting this out in the public?
It has yet to be determined whether or not this will be a violation of NFA34 and I understand you have written into the BATF for a ruling. Why take pre-orders and payments on something that might not even be allowed under current law?
And if ruled illegal, do you have plans to modify same and/or go back to the drawing board?
While I understand you have deep feelings for this and it's something out of the box in a market filled with in the box thinking, there are serious medical and legal issues that have to have the boxes checked before you put this to market. Frankly, I see this as a major lawsuit waiting to happen, but that's just me. Someone else mentioned the "Caution Beverage Hot" lids from Micky Dee's some years ago. This is the same type of item as a Styrofoam cup filled with coffee. Some people could/should know not to use it with medical problems, but they will. And find a lawyer and you spend the next two years fighting a court battle which you very well could lose since you haven't identified any medical issues that would prohibit the use of this.
So my advice? Find a reputable doctor, get a long term medical prognosis on using this item. Identify what problems could occur and mark your product with same (or packaging). Identify medical problems people might have that should avoid using this product. And honestly, I would suggest suspending pre-sales of this item until you get a ruling from the ATF. I understand production costs and whatnot have to be paid in advance sometimes, but if you get ruled illegal, there could be a lot of money returned and I hope you are prepared for that situation.
Like I said, I applaud your out of the box thinking, but sincerely, I cannot see any use for this product that cannot and will not be scrutinized by every ambulance chasing lawyer in a ten State diameter. Your tactical team reference was completely off since departments don't technically fall under the ATF restrictions. And the problems brought up in earlier posts about tactical teams bumping into something. You bump the muzzle with a stock in your shoulder, you have body armor and the mass of your chest area to take the impact. You bump with your NSN into your chin, it slips and hits your nose, you end up bleeding and with watery eyes...something you really don't want nor can afford during an entry on a high risk situation.
It's novel, it's...neat. Practical? In my opinion, no. A lawyer's wet dream for a frivolous lawsuit in which you end up spending far more than you will ever make on the NSN itself defending in court?
Absolutely.
And please don't take this as a personal attack. But these are realistic and legitimate questions that must be answered before this product hits shelves.
Enough with the personal attacks. Keep this on target or it's over.
The questions asked by myself and others that fall in suit with the questions asked by Grand58742, must be answered by you NealHALIX. Putting this to market without those answers is a fool hearted recipe for financial disaster at very least.
Maybe you sell these like hot cakes and make a lot of money...but without those answered questions...one day will come, it always does.
Do your homework. Preparation and patience are the keys to success.
@Shane1: For a big-city department, sure. But, there are plenty of SWAT/CIRT that do not get issued short barrel firearms suitable for entry duty, and are instead asked to provide their own patrol rifles, for example.
I actually have friends and employees that are in that particular position, right now. They (SWAT members) are not allowed to own SBRs per Michigan's regulations, so they do entry work with 16" rifles. They would like to have short barrel firearms, and the NSN + pistol delivers that opportunity.
Additionally, I have security team clients that are issued 16" barrel AR rifles and would rather have short barrels. However, it's that Michigan rule and the headaches related to NFA items that prevents their adoption of those firearms. Again, NSN + pistol solves it.
@Grand, thanks for the feedback. Here's what I have so far:
(What are the long term medical problems that can (and will) come about from using this device?)
There are no known long term medical problems that can (and will) come about from using this device. I've had one PA try out the NSN so far, and she did tell me that this device does not impart enough force, with light recoiling cartridges like 5.56, to cause medical problems, and she was a 4'11" lightweight. She did not, however, wish to be on camera saying that, which I understood, for liability's sake.
I intend to seek additional medical professionals' opinions after shooting with the NSN, and I will find at least one that will provide me with reasonable documentation of their opinions.
(What current medical problems would prohibit a person from using this device and have they been identified by a reputable medical professional?)
There are no medical problems that have been identified that immediately disqualify an individual from operating a firearm with an NSN. So far, I've had one individual with TMJ operate the NSN with 5.56 (as seen in one of our posted videos) and she did not encounter any pain during or after firing with the NSN. I have followed up with everyone, or their guardian, who has fired the NSN, at 5 hour and 24 hour increments, to see if anyone has encountered any pain. So far, there have been no problems reported.
(You say there are or will be maximum limits for cartridges...what are those and why weren't they identified prior to you putting this out in the public?)
The product is designed for light recoiling cartridges, i.e. intermediate cartridges, such as 5.56/7.62x39/300BLK. I have not yet identified upper limits, and at this point, it may stay that way. The reasoning is found in our disclaimer, found on our website:
"The NSN is not rated to safely absorb a specific amount of force. There are many variables that affect the amount of force delivered to the foam pad and the operator's face, including the weight of the firearm, muzzle energy of the chosen firearm, foam pad angle of impact onto the operator's face, and more.
As a general rule, we recommend using the NSN on a firearm with NO MORE muzzle energy than 5.56x45mm NATO, 300BLACKOUT, 7.62x39mm, 7.62x40mm Wilson Tactical, or 6.8SPC."
(It has yet to be determined whether or not this will be a violation of NFA34 and I understand you have written into the BATF for a ruling. Why take pre-orders and payments on something that might not even be allowed under current law?)
I started this project with the understanding that the NSN flew through the barn doors of the NFA regulations. Since this project went live, however, I've taken the advice of industry veterans and sought a ruling from the BATFE. If the BATFE decides that this device changes the classification of a firearm from Title 1 to Title 2, then I'll refund anyone's pre-order who wishes for one.
(And if ruled illegal, do you have plans to modify same and/or go back to the drawing board?)
No and yes. For the civilian market, no, I would not be terribly interested in delivering NFA restricted items at this time.
For the military market, though, I would still intend to develop the NSN for specific applications. Since I launched, some cool people have contacted me with ideas related to soldier survivability and current problems with shoulder stocks interfering with armor systems. I'll keep M4C updated if something turns out with that.
@everyone who has sent me an e-mail or PM so far: Wow. Thanks. As of the past few days, the support has been amazing. Things have definitely turned around.
Grand58742
09-09-12, 23:30
Good luck with your endeavors.
M4Carbine,
We decided today to suspend the pre-order and we have refunded our customers' money (Paypal may not release some refunds until 9/19/12).
I look forward to bringing out a new design in the near future that delivers the same capabilities and addresses most of our customers' feedback.
Thanks for the feedback on this forum, guys. I appreciated it,
Neal
M4Carbine,
We decided today to suspend the pre-order and we have refunded our customers' money (Paypal may not release some refunds until 9/19/12).
I look forward to bringing out a new design in the near future that delivers the same capabilities and addresses most of our customers' feedback.
Thanks for the feedback on this forum, guys. I appreciated it,
Neal
What gives? Did the BATFE not approve or did you just have a change of mind?
No, I haven't received anything from the BATFE.
I'm still going to work on a device that replicates the capabilities of the NSN but doesn't have the downsides that people have pointed out.
After all the feedback I received, I didn't want to use other people's money on a product that I think could be improved. So, I refunded everything and am going back to the drawing board.
I'm passionate about replacing the need for a shoulder stock to stabilize firearms. I'll be back with a product that I think more people will enjoy.
No, I haven't received anything from the BATFE.
I'm still going to work on a device that replicates the capabilities of the NSN but doesn't have the downsides that people have pointed out.
After all the feedback I received, I didn't want to use other people's money on a product that I think could be improved. So, I refunded everything and am going back to the drawing board.
I'm passionate about replacing the need for a shoulder stock to stabilize firearms. I'll be back with a product that I think more people will enjoy.
That's great! You have proven yourself to be a man of great character throughout this thread, and this decision only reinforces that. I wish you success.
That's great! You have proven yourself to be a man of great character throughout this thread, and this decision only reinforces that. I wish you success.
Deleted picture.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d734b3127ccef14b65d0ee8500000030O02AZuHLRo4ctQe3nwI/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
SpankMonkey
09-15-12, 21:31
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24669172.jpg
You really have zero class.
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24669172.jpg
That's great man. You reply to a guy that was doing nothing but giving NealHALIX a compliment on him being upstanding, responsible, and having a passion to improve upon the AR and you make this comment.
As Spankmonkey said, zero class.
NealHALIX,
I wish you the best man. Top man for what you did and how you handled everything. Looking forward to your MK2 design!
-Jax
That's great man. You reply to a guy that was doing nothing but giving NealHALIX a compliment on him being upstanding, responsible, and having a passion to improve upon the AR and you make this comment.
As Spankmonkey said, zero class.
NealHALIX,
I wish you the best man. Top man for what you did and how you handled everything. Looking forward to your MK2 design!
-Jax
Deleted picture.
Thank you for reemphasizing my statement of you. Out,
-Jax
Thank you for reemphasizing my statement of you. Out,
-Jax
No problem. Laterz.
SWATcop556
09-15-12, 23:24
Merle, knock it off. Only warning. Don't push it.
"Laterz" How old are you? Go hop back on your Xbox Call of Duty game and leave the firearms forums to grown-ups.
Anywho, like other more professional forum members have stated, you have exhibited class through alot of both ribbings as well as constructive criticism. Can't wait to see your new product and hope the best for you.
This whole thread has been a huge joke about a gimmicky product and now everyone is busting my balls over a little bit of humor that I attempted to interject. Lighten up peoeple. I'm aactually amazed this thread wasn't locked 5 pages ago.
SWATcop556
09-16-12, 01:42
It can run for however many pages it wants to when people are talking about it in a civil manner. Regardless of how gimmicky it is (which I find it to be) this is a discussion board for people to discuss topics.
Threads get locked when people act like jackoffs
This whole thread has been a huge joke about a gimmicky product and now everyone is busting my balls over a little bit of humor that I attempted to interject. Lighten up peoeple. I'm aactually amazed this thread wasn't locked 5 pages ago.
Joke or not, how about YOU as a member of this forum help to foster innovation amongst people who are willing to endeavor. Because whether or not you like the product, at least some of these folks are being creative and taking into account the constructive criticism we have to offer.
SWATcop556
09-16-12, 04:56
This one needs to get back on topic or wither on the vine. OT posts from here on out get deleted, infractions given out, and vacations/timeouts taken.
No more bullshit.
I'm sorry I made fun of this product. I wish Neal luck on his future endeavors and I apologize to the people who have posted in this thread for my childish behavior. However, the people that have made posts of praise for the product called the "No Stock Needed" which sounds to me like a play on words to give it a military sounding stamp of approval (National Stock Number), or praising the simple premise of having ingenuity by thinking outside of the box should have their head examined. I think Neal would be better served by designing an outergarment that would cushion and dissipate the recoil of the pistol receiver extension into the shoulder and it wouldn't be part of the weapon. Still gimmicky but it wouldn't cause any damage to the teeth or jaw which are kind of important parts of the body to most of us. All of the praise made me think of "The Wolf" so I posted that picture. Think of me what you will but a bad idea is a bad idea. And btw, I'm 36 but still enjoy a good joke every now and then.
Merle: I thought the picture was hilarious...must have been the mostly-dormant Marine side of me.
And thanks for the feedback. The new design won't interface with the jaw, and I'd like you to comment on the product when it actually gets released, if you feel up to it.
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