View Full Version : Air Soft Training - Viable?
Guys I got a question.
I shot an Airsoft pistol for the first time yesterday, and had this thought.
Can airsoft pistol be used as a tool to improve out of the concealed holster draw to on target first shot time/accuracy? Obviously and follow up shots are not going to simulate crap. Especially since a lot of ranges (at least near me) will run you off if you try any holster work. So the only time I get real range holster work is either in a class/IDPA.
thoughts?
gtmtnbiker98
09-03-12, 10:26
Just buy a blue gun or better yet, a SIRT - assuming you run a Glock.
They are a supplement, not a replacement. They have a use but it is not a universal training aid, it is merely a part of the training equation.
Airsoft pistols excel over a SIRT or a blue gun because you can to a limited degree work sight tracking.
The SIRT pistol and the blue gun will not allow you to do this because of non reciprocating slides.
In a perfect world, your supplemental training tool list would look like this:
1. Blue gun.
2. Sirt pistol
3. Airsoft pistol replica.
Some notes.
If you are training with Airsoft be sure to work at realistic ranges so you have decent feedback as to whether or not your sights were actually lined up. Never exceed 10 yards with these toys. Most of your training should be seven yards and in.
Also, ensure that you are using BLACK bb's. Never, EVER use white bb's as you will find yourself losing your sight focus and tracking the flight path of the bb.
If your gun has an adjustable hopup (the mechanism that supplies backspin to the bb via the Bernoulli principle.) ensure that you zero the pistol so that you have a LEVEL flight path at your MAXIMUM distance. IE, your POA should be your POA at seven yards if that is where you are doing your training.
Group the pistol so you are aware of how horrifically inaccurate they are. I have seen alot of shooters pick up Airsoft pistols for the first time and become frustrated with them because they are ignorant of the limitations of the system. It is a toy...they suck...hard. Be aware of this and work around it.
IF at all possible, try and pick up a CO2 powered pistol. These are a little more expensive to run but they tend to output a higher FPS which usually (note i say usually) means a more consistent flight path at limited ranges. Again, generally speaking they also have a more forceful blowback action which will make tracking the sights as the slide reciprocates a little more in line with firing a real pistol.
Any questions, fire away.
A number of law enforcement agencies use Airsoft as a complement to or replacement for marking rounds. There are some advantages such as the ability to use less protective gear and, of course, the expense.
That said (and Magsz, you may have better information), most seem to use Airsoft for tactics training rather than weapon-handling skills.
A number of law enforcement agencies use Airsoft as a complement to or replacement for marking rounds. There are some advantages such as the ability to use less protective gear and, of course, the expense.
That said (and Magsz, you may have better information), most seem to use Airsoft for tactics training rather than weapon-handling skills.
The problem with Airsoft in force on force situation is that it can promote BAD habits.
Most of the guns do not have significant mechanisms powering them which means kinetic energy is simply not there. Even with a long sleeve uniform shirt feeling hits unless they are contact shots is VERY hard. Programs must be HEAVILY supervised and regulated if training is to be effective. Throw in armor and unless you have a moderator calling hits, people will not feel the impacts.
Just look at any hobbyist Airsoft video on the internet. The fear of death, dismemberment or simple pain is not there which results in a bunch of Captain America's running around. Sure, these people are untrained but i have seen the same behavior from "trained" individuals.
I think it stands to reason that the quality of the program will dictate how effective the equipment is.
my main question is do you think air soft is a viable training tool for out of the holster first shot on target work.
Yes,
Although a SIRT pistol is better.
Agree with the above. (Post 5)
There was another thread recently on this topic, and like I said there, I think it's a good training tool, one that I've done before, but a gas blowback air soft pistol is much more realistic. Also, if I were putting some FoF training together that involved airsoft, it would be in a "shoot house" setting (preferably low/no light) and light T-shirts would be mandated so you get some immediate (painful) feedback if you do something stupid and get shot. :D
I been kicking around the idea of the air soft glock pistol as a cheap way to get a lot of practice coming out of my concealment holster with a shot on target at 7 yards.
but my next question is are there air soft guns out there with a similar trigger pull
best I can do at local ranges is low ready practice, so that's my thought behind this option..
I think it has some merit. as long as it is used as a supplement and used realistically. I too have kicked around buying an airsoft glock.
The trigger pulls on these pistols always suck on anything but some of the KWA brand 1911's.
There is a CZ75 replica made by KWA that has a passable trigger but it is WAY too light.
All Glock replicas on the market are garbage when it comes to trigger feel.
Having said this, they are about on par with the SIRT, ie not that great but workable.
This was posted on Todd G's forum. Looks pretty promising. Much better than airsoft for the OPs use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmXd2kxdDFU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
packinaglock
09-03-12, 17:33
I try to practice shooting on the move at a target with mine. Since your not allowed to do that at the range.
I have used airsoft in the past & am currently trying the SIRT.
The main disadvantage with the airsoft were
1) I broke 3 of them (actually broke more times, but airsoft store was able to repair them)
2) There are plastic BB's all over my basement. My last airsoft broke about 2 yrs ago & I am still finding BB's.
I started with the SIRT about a month ago & I am pleased with it so far. The company has many video on how to properly train with it. Time will tell if I see any improvement in my shooting.
The interior construction looks cheap, but from other owners that have posted their experiences, they seem to hold up & if they don't the company stands behind their product.
I also like that I am not restricted to the basement by the wife. I practice while watching TV every evening. My fireplace has 3 circular cut out in the wood frame that make excellent targets for practicing transitions.
anyone have experience with something like this?
http://www.amazon.com/Laserlyte-Laser-Trainer-9-mm-Cartridge/dp/B004NKY23E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346718203&sr=8-1&keywords=laserlyte+9mm
The problem with Airsoft in force on force situation is that it can promote BAD habits.
Just look at any hobbyist Airsoft video on the internet. The fear of death, dismemberment or simple pain is not there which results in a bunch of Captain America's running around. Sure, these people are untrained but i have seen the same behavior from "trained" individuals.
Yeah, fear management is unnecessary because there is no fear. And it's the fear keeps you from doing stupid sh*t. But there really is almost no way to get this if your only source of defense training is firearm. It isn't just airsoft that's a problem, it's the necessity of widening your defense capabilities and experiences. Being able to think and continue fighting when you're pretty badly injured is something you gain from experience provided you have the capability to do it in the first place, which some do not.
Regarding other aspects of airsoft, I think Magsz covered it pretty well. It's a great training tool. I like the fact that if I'm tired I can step into my garage and get some practice in without having to load up my gear and go to the range. In honesty, the harsh trigger is kind of helpful because it makes you concentrate harder on your trigger mechanics and for the people who can't work from a holster at the range,airsoft is really of value. Didn't I read somewhere awhile back where someone in Japan trained for gun games using airsoft; came over here, shot some competitions and did really well? Like everything else, it's a another tool that's useful for certain things.
If you do decide to do airsoft, use a box with the open end toward you and about 3-4 layers of cardboard in the back. This way the box acts as a catch for most of the pellets and the extra cardboard prevents most of the pellets from going through the back of the box.
As someone who has played airsoft for almost a decade and still does custom work/repairs/builds of airsoft replicas, I'd like to throw my $0.02 in.
As I've transitioned from playing with airsoft replica's and further into my firearm training, I believe airsoft can be(though not always) used as a viable training source. In a nutshell I agree with everything that Magsz has stated already.
I have seen and participated in training events where LEO/Mil have utilized airsoft replicas effectively. It can be whatever you make of it. Will an airsoft replica ever be a complete 100% copy of the real deal? No, but you can use it as a substitute training aide if you so desire. I think Travis Haley had a good video explaining pro's and con's of what he called Airsoft Cross Training that may be beneficial to you.
With the latest airsoft equipment that is hitting the market these days, you are no longer limited to gas pistols for training but rifles as well. Again, no airsoft replica will ever be the same as the real thing, but it can be beneficial to some as a training supplement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoHA-rhGeG4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Mr. haleys thoughts on the subject
I think airsoft can help, specially if you run around with all the gear they have on.
Full Chest Rigs and Hydration systems, the "weapons" themselves have a "gen" weight sometimes.
I played, and it helped me alot.
People spend crazy money on air soft guns. As much as real guns!
My cousin who was a Ranger is heavy into it.
People spend crazy money on air soft guns. As much as real guns!
My cousin who was a Ranger is heavy into it.
I use to be heavy into it, I had 1600$ into my blaster, 600 into my secondary, roughly 3k into my gear...
pretty expensive for an unemployed student eh? then I got a mustang and I stopped playing, and sold the stuff off to fund my 400 HP n/a monster :D
I use to be heavy into it, I had 1600$ into my blaster, 600 into my secondary, roughly 3k into my gear...
pretty expensive for an unemployed student eh? then I got a mustang and I stopped playing, and sold the stuff off to fund my 400 HP n/a monster :D
I've still got all the stuff - I was in threefold of where you were at.
The real problem is that the cheap, readily available stuff is so junky it's only really worthwhile to train with out to rock throwing distances, and the enthusiast grade stuff that is a lot more realistic is in the same price range as a .22 trainer to use - hard to justify on something that still comes with a bright orange tip and probably has to be ordered from a mail order or overseas toy store.
I've got more wrapped up in my favorite airsoft 1911 than I do in one of my .45 ACP ones, and I've converted an NHC to look just like it. Partially crazy: yes, but I've also put about 30,000 rounds through that dumb airsoft pistol, and learned how to perform proper draws under stress from 6004 holsters using it - it's been worthwhile.
Also, don't discount the utility for getting kids up to speed - airsoft is a cheaper, lower risk way to get them up to speed on handling and range procedures as well. It helps if you also use airsoft stuff as a supplement to dry fire work, at least with handguns, since you can work draws, presentations, and weapons manipulation with a decent airsoft gun, even dry.
I've still got all the stuff - I was in threefold of where you were at.
The real problem is that the cheap, readily available stuff is so junky it's only really worthwhile to train with out to rock throwing distances, and the enthusiast grade stuff that is a lot more realistic is in the same price range as a .22 trainer to use - hard to justify on something that still comes with a bright orange tip and probably has to be ordered from a mail order or overseas toy store.
I've got more wrapped up in my favorite airsoft 1911 than I do in one of my .45 ACP ones, and I've converted an NHC to look just like it. Partially crazy: yes, but I've also put about 30,000 rounds through that dumb airsoft pistol, and learned how to perform proper draws under stress from 6004 holsters using it - it's been worthwhile.
Also, don't discount the utility for getting kids up to speed - airsoft is a cheaper, lower risk way to get them up to speed on handling and range procedures as well. It helps if you also use airsoft stuff as a supplement to dry fire work, at least with handguns, since you can work draws, presentations, and weapons manipulation with a decent airsoft gun, even dry.
Thats actually why I picked up the sport, I was told (since i was way young at the time....) that I was not allowed to be in a class or train because I was to young so I started playing airsoft, practiced there, of course in order to be relstic (to my standards) I bought a Western arms Gas blowback M4, and started playing/training like that.
eventually the sport (in my area) flooded with little kids (granted I was as young or younger as these guys) I assume from the release ofcall of duty modern warfare...and I stopped playing because I could tolerate getting shot in the staging area because some kid removed his mag but left a bb in the "chamber".
luckily that was right arund my 18th birthday so I bought some ammo for the RS and went to the local range.
The trigger pulls on these pistols always suck on anything but some of the KWA brand 1911's.
There is a CZ75 replica made by KWA that has a passable trigger but it is WAY too light.
All Glock replicas on the market are garbage when it comes to trigger feel.
Having said this, they are about on par with the SIRT, ie not that great but workable.
Forget about that CZ 75 by kwa. The base plates on mags are held on by boogers, you have to gently push them in otherwise they snap and fall off.
It must be useful to some people. In the competative world of USPSA (IPSC), there is/was a competitor (uk name) from Japan that practiced primarilly using Airsoft guns, since real guns are impossible to find in Japan. He came to the US, practiced a little with a borrowed/rented gun, then and won the match. I dont remember the division but it was a big match, possibly Nationals or World Shoot.
In a sport where 90% is gun handling ie draw, index, move sights from target to target, then move from point to point, typically while shooting and reloading on the move, most of the practice can be done with Airsoft.
Now if your sport is PPC or target shooting, it would a very limited help in training.
As an asside, my Dept uses Airsoft guns in training. Not training how to shoot but room clearing tactics etc. The Airsoft adds the needed factor of "punishment" for bad tactics and help everyone get involved emotionally.
Airsoft can definitely help practice and learn tactics. It is useless in teaching marksmanship.
I airsofted for 7 years, and im glad that i did because i learned alot. But it has its limitations.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.