View Full Version : Work rifle?
Would you trust your life and use, if accepted by the armorer, rifles from compaies on the lower end of the price point?
A LEO/Military environment to companies like...
DPMS
Doublestar
Surplus Arms and Ammo
Stag
The list goes on, but would you be ok with it at work trusing your life to it?
Thanks
These are always tricky threads because guys like what they own and can be easily offended if they think someone's being critical of their gear and, by extension, critical of them for choosing it.
Having said that, there is a difference between what a rifle owned by the average enthusiast is exposed to compared to one that lives its life in and out of a patrol vehicle. There is also a certain premium I place on accuracy and reliability, criteria that don't always translate to budget rifles.
We have a proflific patrol rifle program at my agency. It's been around since 1998 and we have ~400 individually owned AR/M4 rifles on the street today; not bad considering we're an 800 man department.
After much initial debate, the decision to allow Bushmaster, Rock River and a few other more affordable rifles onto the authorized list was made in part because cops typically aren't well heeled and can't/won't afford a Noveske or LWRC for a duty gun.
If given alternate choices (e.g. Colt, Daniel Defense and some others), nothing on your list would be something I'd be willing to carry into harm's way.
I've carried both DD and Colt at work. I've settled on the Colt. And we probably have more Colts on the street than any other brand.
For what it's worth...
Isn't Stag CMT's commercial retail side? Doesn't CMT make parts for Noveske and Colt?
Or maybe I'm completely mistaken.
These are always tricky threads because guys like what they own and can be easily offended if they think someone's being critical of their gear and, by extension, critical of them for choosing it.
Having said that, there is a difference between what a rifle owned by the average enthusiast is exposed to compared to one that lives its life in and out of a patrol vehicle. There is also a certain premium I place on accuracy and reliability, criteria that don't always translate to budget rifles.
We have a proflific patrol rifle program at my agency. It's been around since 1998 and we have ~400 individually owned AR/M4 rifles on the street today; not bad considering we're an 800 man department.
After much initial debate, the decision to allow Bushmaster, Rock River and a few other more affordable rifles onto the authorized list was made in part because cops typically aren't well heeled and can't/won't afford a Noveske or LWRC for a duty gun.
If given alternate choices (e.g. Colt, Daniel Defense and some others), nothing on your list would be something I'd be willing to carry into harm's way.
I've carried both DD and Colt at work. I've settled on the Colt. And we probably have more Colts on the street than any other brand.
For what it's worth...
Great post. Thanks.
Basically I am looking to build a few rifles. I am trying to decide between a few higher end receivers like Noveske, Daniel Defense, LaRue, or get receivers from companies like Aero Precision, SA&A, Stag. The internals will all be top quality no matter the receiver. These rifles will be work riles, and I want quality stuff that can take a beating and still survive daily work and rifle classes/training. It just seems the mindset in a lot of people is its just a roll mark, and a waste of money, as receivers are receivers and they all are quality. I guess I am trying to see what peoples opinions on receivers are on here.
Thanks again
Difficult to answer, but probably no. I have met numerous so-called armorers who have had little to no training and were pushed into their positions for various reasons. They made mods to weapons that were actually unsafe and the weapons didn't always function right.
Some of them didn't even understand the cycle of operation and clearly said things like, "Colts are unreliable and you are paying for the price only", etc... etc..
When I hear that I know that they are tools and have no understanding.
When I hear that I know that they are tools and have no understanding.
Or are mislead by someone they THINK know what they are talking about.
I would say that in this area, I see more substandard brands like the OP has listed more than I see the good brands. People who make the decisions usually do not make the correct choices due to their reasoning for making the purchase.
For example, Stag and Bushmaster are most prominent around here due to the big bosses reading the advertisements on gun and police magazines that are sent to the stations.
The rough M4C approved list, based on a shit ton of accumulated experience, is(in no particular order):
KAC, Noveske, DD, LaRue, Colt, BCM, and LMT. NCPatrol has let us know the NC HP has had good results with the S&W AR's but, IIRC, they did need some minor work(could be wrong).
Would I trust my life on the manufacturer's you mentioned? No. I'm a firm believer of buy once, cry once. If your dept. had a master armorer like IG(which I doubt) he would be able to fix some of the issues that typically arise in lower tier guns such as staking, inferior bolt, etc. if he had the budget.
The_War_Wagon
09-03-12, 16:58
Would I prefer a Bus-hamster, to a pointy stick? Yes. :rolleyes:
Since we're not DOWN to JUST pointy sticks yet, I'll stick with BCM, until such a point in time comes to pass...
The rough M4C approved list, based on a shit ton of accumulated experience, is(in no particular order):
KAC, Noveske, DD, LaRue, Colt, BCM, and LMT. NCPatrol has let us know the NC HP has had good results with the S&W AR's but, IIRC, they did need some minor work(could be wrong).
Would I trust my life on the manufacturer's you mentioned? No. I'm a firm believer of buy once, cry once. If your dept. had a master armorer like IG(which I doubt) he would be able to fix some of the issues that typically arise in lower tier guns such as staking, inferior bolt, etc. if he had the budget.
Is CMMG on that list and is it considered good? My choices are....
Cmmg, spikes, noveske, and S&W. They have 1 of each.
Only you can answer that question. Don't get me wrong I do beleive that there are scales of quality when it comes to firearms materials, construction, etc., but instead of looing at the weak link as the department armorer, you should look to yourself.
If you buy a weapon for duty uses, and you base that descision onjust an approved list and an armorers word, SHAME ON YOU!
Its your job to buy what you feel is $$ reasonable if on the list, then get to know the tool. Shoot it, train with it, and yes even break it or wear it out. Only then will you know the limits of that weapon, brand, etc.
I've shot, and owned numerous brands. Some high dollar items gave me nothing but grief, some cheapos have out shot my desire to pull the trigger.
I've never let a name brand make me feel secure, only time on the range with that nam can do that.
The balls in your court.
Only you can answer that question. Don't get me wrong I do beleive that there are scales of quality when it comes to firearms materials, construction, etc., but instead of looing at the weak link as the department armorer, you should look to yourself.
If you buy a weapon for duty uses, and you base that descision onjust an approved list and an armorers word, SHAME ON YOU!
Its your job to buy what you feel is $$ reasonable if on the list, then get to know the tool. Shoot it, train with it, and yes even break it or wear it out. Only then will you know the limits of that weapon, brand, etc.
I've shot, and owned numerous brands. Some high dollar items gave me nothing but grief, some cheapos have out shot my desire to pull the trigger.
I've never let a name brand make me feel secure, only time on the range with that nam can do that.
The balls in your court.
You do realize that unless the armorer approves it and it is on the list you cannot use it at work? It has to be on the list. I agree about range time, but again, it could be $550 complete rifle that runs perfectly, but I cant use it therefore it doesn't make sense.
Noveske all day. Don't think you'll get any disagreement from M4C.
This is predicated on you personally running the gun hard through multiple range sessions, verifying the mags as well. If at all possible, I'd also try to take a quality training course with that same rifle as well.
Great post. Thanks.
Basically I am looking to build a few rifles. I am trying to decide between a few higher end receivers like Noveske, Daniel Defense, LaRue, or get receivers from companies like Aero Precision, SA&A, Stag. The internals will all be top quality no matter the receiver. These rifles will be work riles, and I want quality stuff that can take a beating and still survive daily work and rifle classes/training. It just seems the mindset in a lot of people is its just a roll mark, and a waste of money, as receivers are receivers and they all are quality. I guess I am trying to see what peoples opinions on receivers are on here.
Thanks again
So you arent looking for a factory rifle? I think some of the replies seem confused........with lowers there are QC issues you can research too. Seems some companies have issues manufacturing magwells in spec and the like........
There only a few companies that produce their own uppers and lowers and then parts. The vast majority of receivers are made at only a few locations and then roll marks are put on later. If you look around a tad, you'll find that CMT (Continential Machine and Tool) makes receivers for a bunch of companies. Regardless of the name on the side, check to see who really made it. Here is an old list:
LMT = LMT, Lauer(old), DS Arms, PWA, Eagle, Knights Armament, Barrett, Bushmaster (?)
CMT = Stag, RRA, High Standard, Noveske (old), Century (current), Global Tactical, CLE, S&W(now made in house), MGI (1st batch), Wilson Tactical, Ratworx
LAR = Grizzly, Bushmaster (L Prefix), Ameetech, (?)DPMS, CMMG, Double Star, Fulton, Spike's Tactical, Noveske (new)
MMS = Mega, Gunsmoke, Dalphon, POF (forged), Alexander Arms, Stinger, Spike's Tactical(old)
JVP = Double Star, LRB
Olympic = Olypmic, SGW, Tromix, Palmetto, Dalphon, Frankford, (old) Century
Superior = Superior Arms, Lauer (current)
Grenadier Precision
Sabre Defence (?)
There only a few companies that produce their own uppers and lowers and then parts. The vast majority of receivers are made at only a few locations and then roll marks are put on later. If you look around a tad, you'll find that CMT (Continential Machine and Tool) makes receivers for a bunch of companies. Regardless of the name on the side, check to see who really made it. Here is an old list:
LMT = LMT, Lauer(old), DS Arms, PWA, Eagle, Knights Armament, Barrett, Bushmaster (?)
CMT = Stag, RRA, High Standard, Noveske (old), Century (current), Global Tactical, CLE, S&W(now made in house), MGI (1st batch), Wilson Tactical, Ratworx
LAR = Grizzly, Bushmaster (L Prefix), Ameetech, (?)DPMS, CMMG, Double Star, Fulton, Spike's Tactical, Noveske (new)
MMS = Mega, Gunsmoke, Dalphon, POF (forged), Alexander Arms, Stinger, Spike's Tactical(old)
JVP = Double Star, LRB
Olympic = Olypmic, SGW, Tromix, Palmetto, Dalphon, Frankford, (old) Century
Superior = Superior Arms, Lauer (current)
Grenadier Precision
Sabre Defence (?)
Thank you for this post. I see the new Noveske stuff is made by LAR who also makes Double Star. One would think there would have to be differences in the process to justify the cost. Right? There has to be something to offset it no?
Thanks again
Would I accept those choices, not if were my keister on the line. My former dept was a colt only setup, we had very few if any problems that couldn't be traced to an older magazine.
New dept is getting Smith and Wesson M&P 15T, would it be my first choice especially when our rifle funds were basically unlimted from seizure money no. On the other hand it is still equiping 107 officers with rifles and we were given the ok on pmags eotech and some other goodies that were speced with the rifle.
I had put in for options including Noveske, Knights, DD, Colt and FN. But we all know how recommendations from most who actually know are never headed, oh well.
Am I very disappointed in the Smith and Wesson choice, not at all. I think it will serve well, sure would love a Noveske or Knights though.
Basically I'm ok with the Smiths, its not a bushmaster or DPMS and it puts more rifles on the roads.
There only a few companies that produce their own uppers and lowers and then parts. The vast majority of receivers are made at only a few locations and then roll marks are put on later. If you look around a tad, you'll find that CMT (Continential Machine and Tool) makes receivers for a bunch of companies. Regardless of the name on the side, check to see who really made it. Here is an old list:
LMT = LMT, Lauer(old), DS Arms, PWA, Eagle, Knights Armament, Barrett, Bushmaster (?)
CMT = Stag, RRA, High Standard, Noveske (old), Century (current), Global Tactical, CLE, S&W(now made in house), MGI (1st batch), Wilson Tactical, Ratworx
LAR = Grizzly, Bushmaster (L Prefix), Ameetech, (?)DPMS, CMMG, Double Star, Fulton, Spike's Tactical, Noveske (new)
MMS = Mega, Gunsmoke, Dalphon, POF (forged), Alexander Arms, Stinger, Spike's Tactical(old)
JVP = Double Star, LRB
Olympic = Olypmic, SGW, Tromix, Palmetto, Dalphon, Frankford, (old) Century
Superior = Superior Arms, Lauer (current)
Grenadier Precision
Sabre Defence (?)
I'll buy into some of that....Now take a look at this:
http://aopmfg.com/index.php/industries/firearms/
"AO Precision supplies many of the most respected of the AR-15 rifle producers. These include Alexander Arms, Bulldog Barrels, Del-Ton, DSA, Krieger Barrels, Lothar Walther, LaRue Tactical, LWRC, Noveske, O.F. Mossberg, Primary Weapons Systems, Rock River Arms, SIG Sauer, E.R. Shaw Barrels, Smith & Wesson, Spike’s Tactical, Wilson Arms and Wilson Combat. Our critical parts – bolts, carriers, barrel extensions and receivers – are considered the best available."
"AO Precision is a major provider for the M16 and M4 parts contract for upper receivers, bolts, carriers and barrel extensions. We are also sole source to the U.S. Government for breech bolt assemblies for the M61A1 20mm Vulcan cannon. The company produces parts for the M249 SAW and M240 Machine gun and USSOCOM suppressor components."
.
Moonlight Again
09-03-12, 19:04
Assuming a) a qualified armorer who b) checks over the rifle and certs it as good to go, heck yes. Subject, of course, to c) using the rifle for training to see how it runs under pressure. And, d) documenting all rounds fired and any problems.
Traveshamockery
09-03-12, 19:10
Thank you for this post. I see the new Noveske stuff is made by LAR who also makes Double Star. One would think there would have to be differences in the process to justify the cost. Right? There has to be something to offset it no?
Thanks again
Please don't read too far into the whole "they're made in the same factory" message. Products of quite different performance can be built to their respective specifications on the same assembly line.
Companies don't produce only a single quality level. If company A wants 4150 barrel steel and company B specifies 4140, there will be a difference in the end product, even though they came from the same factory.
There are many parts in an AR, and company A may source their FCG from Supplier X while company B gets their BCG from Company X. They're sharing the same supplier, but not buying the same parts.
Maybe the OP can clear up some confusion. Are you with an agency that only allows you to use what's on their approved list? You mentioned CMMG, Spikes, Noveske, and S&W are on the list and that "They" have one of each to pick from? Then you state you are building a few rifles. Your agency/department allows you to build a weapon for work and then has an armorer check it out and approves it for duty use? I'm not tracking this thread. :confused:
Economics are a reality in todays LEO world as in everything else. To me it really depends on who says it's good to go. Cops guns take a beating but are generally not shot enough to even break them in. My issued rifle is a full auto Bushmaster that has never malfunctioned. It came from the 2010 purchase and is far superior in my opinion to the older Bushmasters we have issued out. With that said I haven't had it out of the vault in many months. I decided to carry my own build and have for awhile.
I can't remember who posted the how to on basic inferior gun inspection and repair. Grant or IG I think. Anyway, I do this to all of our department AR's and it has worked well. My biggest issue is keeping the damned 10.5's running from the SWAT team. Since I order them now we do not order 10.5's. You could have someone you trust inspect whatever you are issued.
But if you are talking about building your own I'd make sure you're not violating any department policies. One other thing to remember, a lower is the gun company in the eyes of the law and 99% of all armorers as well. My 2 daily carry rifles say on BCM(entry) and Noveske(precision) on the lowers and to most that's all that matters.
Please list all the approved makers, and if you can purchase your own if made by someone not on the list.
If the list is small and doesn't include the top manufactures,
I would bUy the upper from one of the top makers as well as the BCG and lpk.
Then buy a lower from one of the approved makers, gut it, then use the quality BCG and lpk.
The approving armorer would probably approve it if the lower says Bushmaster etc. and not know any better.
When my dept.started an approved rifle program the list included Bushmaster, Stag, Rock River, and Spikes,and Yes Olympic Arms. The SWAT team purchased OLYMPIC ARMS, against the advice of myself and another officer.
Well that was a TOTAL abortion. We got Colt approved. No one ever heard of Noveske, DD,LMT, BCM, or KAC. I got Noveske approved and I'm working on KAC.
Believe me it's like pulling teeth, I provided "the chart" along with other documentation showing that they approved more rifles at the end of the chart than at the top?????
Still fighting for KAC, BCM,DD, and LMT.
But LWRC was approved because the head firearms instructor bought one!!!????
What I did was get a Noveske complete rifle. Prior to getting Noveske on the list I got 3 striped Spikes lowers. Got DD lpk's, and Geissele triggers, BCM bcg's and gunfighter charging handles.
I then got my own uppers from BCM, Noveske, with VLTOR MUR's, KAC sights.
The armorer approves it as long as the roll mark on the lower matches one on the approved list.
I also got them to approve Aimpoints, and variable scopes.
OP- Armorers are like the ARs they're working on... You have to get beyond the brand name and the cosmetics, down to the raw material, assembly, testing, and QC to determine value. Some are worth their weight in gold. Some are certificate collectors who like guns.
Your armorer should be using an acceptance, inspection, and PM protocol of some sort. Ask about it. If you get a blank stare, he's likely among the latter, not the former. Such documents and procedures help keep things running as they should, regardless of brand name.
I know some folks running some good-as brands. Little about them is as it came from the factory. That is as it should be, and I would carry one of those guns. It's all about standards.
LE purchasing is price-driven, rather than value-driven. A good bean counter or procurement agent is also worth their weight in gold, if they are value-minded. Update your price quotes and bids regularly, diversify your vendors, and stay in touch with your factory reps. You'll find that you can get solid guns from GTG manufacturers for close to the same price as others buying good-as.
WTF does that have to do with this thread?
***this comment is directed at a now deleted comment***
Thanks for posting that. You saved me the trouble.
I'll buy into some of that....Now take a look at this:
http://aopmfg.com/index.php/industries/firearms/
"AO Precision supplies many of the most respected of the AR-15 rifle producers. These include Alexander Arms, Bulldog Barrels, Del-Ton, DSA, Krieger Barrels, Lothar Walther, LaRue Tactical, LWRC, Noveske, O.F. Mossberg, Primary Weapons Systems, Rock River Arms, SIG Sauer, E.R. Shaw Barrels, Smith & Wesson, Spike’s Tactical, Wilson Arms and Wilson Combat. Our critical parts – bolts, carriers, barrel extensions and receivers – are considered the best available."
"AO Precision is a major provider for the M16 and M4 parts contract for upper receivers, bolts, carriers and barrel extensions. We are also sole source to the U.S. Government for breech bolt assemblies for the M61A1 20mm Vulcan cannon. The company produces parts for the M249 SAW and M240 Machine gun and USSOCOM suppressor components."
.
The difference is in the QC process of the final end user(company) of the receiver. What DPMS says is ok, Colt may say no way(Just a made up example for illustration).
deputy tom
09-04-12, 15:19
Isn't Stag CMT's commercial retail side? Doesn't CMT make parts for Noveske and Colt?
Or maybe I'm completely mistaken.
This is what I have thought to be fact.Lots of LEO's that I know have chosen Stag as their go to guns. I did note that a certain plumber from the south hills prefers something better. I think that maybe the post above saying the Bushnmaster ads in LEO magazines might sway the Chief's of Police toward them at least locally. Who knows?tom.
dangertree
09-05-12, 19:05
Would you trust your life and use, if accepted by the armorer, rifles from compaies on the lower end of the price point?
A LEO/Military environment to companies like...
DPMS
Doublestar
Surplus Arms and Ammo
Stag
The list goes on, but would you be ok with it at work trusing your life to it?
Thanks
How does Stag Arms end up on that list?
They have 40 years of M16 manufacturing.
Price alone?
Surplus Arms and Ammo?
My Colts came from Kitchener and probably cost about the same as the average Stag LE.
My armorer trusts both.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.