View Full Version : Is a Springfield Pro $1000 more gun than a TRP?
I have a stainless TRP, and it's really nice. It chokes on JHP ammo once in a while, so it has a warranty trip to the shop coming up in the near future.
I was considering weeding out some stuff from my collection and financing a Pro, so my question is, am I going to see $1000 more value over my TRP?
Singlestack Wonder
09-05-12, 08:53
I have a stainless TRP, and it's really nice. It chokes on JHP ammo once in a while, so it has a warranty trip to the shop coming up in the near future.
I was considering weeding out some stuff from my collection and financing a Pro, so my question is, am I going to see $1000 more value over my TRP?
Other than not having MIM parts, no. If I were going to spend top dollars on a 1911, Wilson Combat would be getting my business.
I have a stainless TRP, and it's really nice. It chokes on JHP ammo once in a while, so it has a warranty trip to the shop coming up in the near future.
I was considering weeding out some stuff from my collection and financing a Pro, so my question is, am I going to see $1000 more value over my TRP?
Probably not. The Pro's are real nice and to some $1000 is small change, to others not so small. If I wanted a Pro, I would do it.. but not on the basis of it being a $1000 better pistol.
On the TRP.. It should not be failing on JHP. How many rounds has it seen? Ron
Probably not. The Pro's are real nice and to some $1000 is small change, to others not so small. If I wanted a Pro, I would do it.. but not on the basis of it being a $1000 better pistol.
On the TRP.. It should not be failing on JHP. How many rounds has it seen? Ron
It's got north of 2k I estimate. However, it's always had the jhp issue. I've just been lazy about sending it back for repairs.
Other than not having MIM parts, no. If I were going to spend top dollars on a 1911, Wilson Combat would be getting my business.
Wilson would be my choice, too.
As it is, my TRP has been chugging away reliably with any ammo I use & with all my Wilson, Chip Mc, & SA mags. It's also far more accurate than me. While I could come up with the money for a Wilson, I doubt it would improve my scores, or my ability. The very small practical part of my brain tells me to save my money & try to wear out the TRP.
Bolt_Overide
09-05-12, 10:38
if I were buying a semi-custom production 1911 in that price range, wilson would be getting my money as well, a close second is nighthawk.
Yes, it is. Fitting takes time, time cost money. The Pro is a very solid 1911.
That said Wilson, Les Baer and Nighthawk also make excellent 1911's, so they are worth checking out before you jump into the deep end.
My TRP is my oldest 1911 and has never malf'd. Send it back. I drink Springer Koolaid. Yes, for what it is, the Pro is worth it to me. The only question, is it worth it to you.
Not a smith or anything, but I did just finish a 1911 armorer's course last month - and I pumped the instructor for a lot of additional info.
The reason I would avoid the TRP is the bull barrel and lack of bushing. In his experience - they are quite accurate for x amount of rounds - then crap out quickly. Bushing based guns - not so.
Again - not MY personal experience - just that of someone with a lot of experience with 1911s. I'm sure some will disagree - others, not:)
So - I would go the Pro or Wilson route if I was looking. (As I mentioned in a different post a few weeks/months back - I bought a Dan Wesson Valor a few months back, and it has turned out to be everything I want in a 1911. OK - except for those damned hex head grip screws - an easy fix.)
john
VooDoo6Actual
09-14-12, 12:19
Yes, My FBI CRG is worth every penny. I have owned & shot SA TRP as well.
That does not tarnish any other brands, species etc.
The reason I would avoid the TRP is the bull barrel and lack of bushing. In his experience - they are quite accurate for x amount of rounds - then crap out quickly. Bushing based guns - not so.
Again - not MY personal experience - just that of someone with a lot of experience with 1911s. I'm sure some will disagree - others, not:)
john
Some TRP have Bulls others not. Keep taking classes. ;)
I have owned a Springfield Custom Shop Gun until late last year. They are worth the $. (I owned a TRP a few years back too)
I've looked at Wilsons and Nighthawks, and prev owned an Ed Brown and Custom Shop Springer. If I ever buy a high end 1911 again, it will be a Pro.
I have a stainless TRP, and it's really nice. It chokes on JHP ammo once in a while, so it has a warranty trip to the shop coming up in the near future.
I was considering weeding out some stuff from my collection and financing a Pro, so my question is, am I going to see $1000 more value over my TRP?
As with most things, there's a diminishing return at some point and the more you $$$ the less you get back. The Pro gets thumbs up from most of the BTDT 1911 experts (Yam, LAV, etc) and to a man, everyone I know who has one loves it.
At that price, you also have some other choices to consider, but by all accounts, the Pro is top tier quality in production custom guns.
Whether it's worth the additional 1k over the TRP is up to you. I can say, those I trust as authorities in 1911s will generally say yes, it's worth it.
It would be on the short list if I was looking for a top shelf production custom 1911 and my experience with them screamed quality and attention to detail, etc the TRP did not.
Not a smith or anything, but I did just finish a 1911 armorer's course last month - and I pumped the instructor for a lot of additional info.
The reason I would avoid the TRP is the bull barrel and lack of bushing. In his experience - they are quite accurate for x amount of rounds - then crap out quickly. Bushing based guns - not so.
Again - not MY personal experience - just that of someone with a lot of experience with 1911s. I'm sure some will disagree - others, not:)
So - I would go the Pro or Wilson route if I was looking. (As I mentioned in a different post a few weeks/months back - I bought a Dan Wesson Valor a few months back, and it has turned out to be everything I want in a 1911. OK - except for those damned hex head grip screws - an easy fix.)
john
The TRP Operator has a bull barrel and the slide is cut for a bushing/guide rod plug if you want to swap out for a conventional barrel set up. Who did you take the course from?
FWIW, I have a TRP Operator and it has been excellent. Functionally (accuracy/reliability), I'd put it up against any custom. I also have an MC Operator that I haven't shot enough to have an opinion on. They are both well made. I'd love a Pro but a custom 1911 is a relatively low priority for me at the moment as my production pieces are answering the mail.
From my experience I would buy any Dan Wesson 1911 or a Wilson. Buy once cry once.
You could have Wilson Bulletproof internals and external safety of your choice plus Meloniting for less than a grand.
That is the approach I would take after you get it running JHP. BTW, 200 grain JHP has been an issue with some guns so PERHAPS if you have it set up run that it will digest anything (LAV? Someone in the know?)
Just a thought.
In a word, no. It is not 1000 dollars better than a TRP.
You can get a better built gun for the same money as a Pro.
To me it was, for what you get the Pro isnt really that expensive.
The longer I spend with 1911s, it seems that I learn to appreciate the little things, and notice how they start to add up.
The trigger, the accuracy and the handfitting are all things you will notice that the Pro has over the TRP.
unclestevie45
10-07-12, 23:26
I own both. Well, the PRO is a SA Custom shop build on a plain Jane SA Government model I bought second hand and sent to them. The TRP is factory.
I love the TRP and feel it is a great value. Mine is accurate and reliable and I carried it a lot. I would buy another.
I had the PRO built six years ago with my re enlistment bonus. It is a better built gun than the TRP. Much better. Tighter, more accurate, just as reliable. Having the two side by each, it's obvious that the PRO has is hand built. I would buy another of these also.
It is worth the extra money in my opinion.
I've owned the standard and railed PRO's for about 8 years now. They are excellent in terms of reliability and accuracy. The only issue that I have is the checkered front strap - it was designed for gloves and is very aggressive at 20 LPI. Be prepared for some rough skin if you shoot more than 200-300 round with bare hands.
I own both. Well, the PRO is a SA Custom shop build on a plain Jane SA Government model I bought second hand and sent to them. The TRP is factory.
I love the TRP and feel it is a great value. Mine is accurate and reliable and I carried it a lot. I would buy another.
I had the PRO built six years ago with my re enlistment bonus. It is a better built gun than the TRP. Much better. Tighter, more accurate, just as reliable. Having the two side by each, it's obvious that the PRO has is hand built. I would buy another of these also.
It is worth the extra money in my opinion.
I am in the same boat here. Own both, would buy both again. I have an older TRP, kind of feel like it was made better than most. The slide to frame fit is perfect. Never failed me. I love it. I might buy a stainless.
I've never owned a SA Pro but I've got a TRP and I've built some pretty nice uber reliable 45's in the past. I looked at the Pro but decided on the TRP because I wanted a project. It's a really nice gun stock but there's enough to upgrade and fiddle with to keep me happy for a while.
Eventually I want a railed 1911 (never had one) so I'll go SACS for that.
so my question is, am I going to see $1000 more value over my TRP?
Yes...only custom out there that you can shoot the snot out of and sell it for more than you paid...
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/8231/006rtv.jpg
The Pro is a excellant gun. There is more hand fitting that goes into it than the TRP. Unfortunately some of the features of their lower priced guns such as MIM parts and the "Glued" in ejector has filtered into the Pro models. For the price it should have no MIM and the ejector should be pinned.
Maryland_Shooter
10-10-12, 06:11
I have a stainless TRP, and it's really nice. It chokes on JHP ammo once in a while, so it has a warranty trip to the shop coming up in the near future.
I was considering weeding out some stuff from my collection and financing a Pro, so my question is, am I going to see $1000 more value over my TRP?
SA will fix/pay shipping. Call them - thy will send FedEx to your house to get the pistol. Let them fix it so JHPs run and then run the thing HARD. IMHO a TRP is more pistol than most people need.
Have it corrected to run all ammo and I think all thoughts of dropping another grand will exit your thoughts.
If not, TRPs sell fast, drop the extra coin and move to the Pro.
Me? I gulp the SA cool-aid.
I would say no, you will not notice the extra $1000. I used to own a SA loaded, and a freind let me shoot his wilson combat for a day. Could I feel a difference, yes. But a difference that cost more then double my gun, no.
Love my DW, and loved my Nighthawk, love the WC, but for me the Brown I have is just straight awesome ..... I do love a good 1911.
I would say no, you will not notice the extra $1000. I used to own a SA loaded, and a freind let me shoot his wilson combat for a day. Could I feel a difference, yes. But a difference that cost more then double my gun, no.
So, how would rate your shooting experience with the PRO ;)?
I own 3 Springfield pistols: 2 PRO's and a 1995 era NM. The PRO is worth the extra grand.
I've owned the standard and railed PRO's for about 8 years now. They are excellent in terms of reliability and accuracy. The only issue that I have is the checkered front strap - it was designed for gloves and is very aggressive at 20 LPI. Be prepared for some rough skin if you shoot more than 200-300 round with bare hands.
This echos my experience. I earned Larry Vickers' ire by putting Pachmayr wraparound grips on my Springfield Pro.
theJanitor
10-11-12, 21:54
I love 20lpi, but it takes awhile to season your hands. now I grab my guns with 30lpi, and they do not feel aggressive enough.
I know it's not as sexy as a PRO, but If your trp is going back to Springfield, use the thousand bucks on sensible upgrades. I doubt you'll use it all, and you'll have a great gun.
It's MY personal opinion, after owning alot of custom 1911s, that for an off-the-shelf gun, the Wilson CQB is the gold standard. other than that, every other 1911 I have, has been worked over by a very good, reputable, smith
So, how would rate your shooting experience with the PRO ;)?
I own 3 Springfield pistols: 2 PRO's and a 1995 era NM. The PRO is worth the extra grand.
Did not shoot the pro. I am sure that his close to 3k wilson combat was in the same ball park. Having shot the high end 1911s, I never had one do anything more then a mid level other then "feel" smoother. If that is worth the extra bucks to you, then fine, but I would prefer to save my money and buy more ammo or training.
QuickStrike
10-12-12, 06:50
Did not shoot the pro. I am sure that his close to 3k wilson combat was in the same ball park. Having shot the high end 1911s, I never had one do anything more then a mid level other then "feel" smoother. If that is worth the extra bucks to you, then fine, but I would prefer to save my money and buy more ammo or training.
So you think you can tell all the difference just based on feel? :confused:
So you think you can tell all the difference just based on feel? :confused:
I used to be like that. My friends were buying Wilson's and Baer. I'd keep trying to convince myself my Loadeds and Colts were just as good. It took awhile to realize even with a couple hundred bucks of work done to them they weren't.
I have two Pros, a railed and a non. What you get in the Pro over the TRP is the Black-T coating, hand fitted barrel and bushing, hand fitted and lapped in slide to frame, better internals, and reliability testing and adjustment. They are not really semi-custom. They are full custom guns from the custom shop built for the FBI to their specs. If you approached them and asked for this or that, the custom shop would build it for you, but it wouldn't be any better. The Pro is as good as it gets.
I find these threads strange and always made more complex than needed.
Is the pro better than the TRP? 100% yes. Anyone can't tell the difference honestly has no business being around 1911s. :cool:
Is the pro worth the extra? That's a subjective issue. Can one say it's worth an extra $995 but not $1000?
It's the difference between a true custom production vs non, and the former always costs more.
TRP an excellent value by most accounts from those who really know 1911s, but those same gents (LAV, Yam, et al) would not risk their lives on anything but top tier quality 1911s, and they consider the pro (or at least did...) in that category. TRP, not so much.
If it's to be a hard use, CCW, combat, tool gun, then choice is easy. If you don't want to spend that type $$$ for a gun that fits that need, get a Glock, M&P, etc. and spend the rest on ammo and training.
If fun gun, plinker, base gun, comp gun, etc, TRP very well may fit those needs.
If that does not tell the non 1911 expert what they need to know to make smart choices, then I don't know what does.
Me, not a 1911 expert, but I make a habit of listening to those who are (in their given area of expertise) and actually take their advice.
I'm funny like that. ;)
I am going to get flamed but here's my take. Having owned and owning baers, Wilson's and a couple Ed Browns, I feel I can honestly say the 2 ,YES 2 PRO's I bought were not worth the money.
First I don't think ANY custom gun should have MIM parts and the PRO has 6! Not looking to debate the merits of MIM just expressing my opinion.
More than half the Pro's I've handled ( my friend is a SA dealer and gets 4 -6 a year, I fondle them all) , mine included had poorly fitted ambi's, the right side being loose.
I think the TRP for the money is an excellent gun , however as of late they seem to be nearing $1400+ ....$300 more and you can get a baer UTC.?!
the Pro for it's price puts you in Wilson and Ed Brown territory , having owned 3 Wilson's and currently owning a couple Browns, my money would go there before a PRO. All steel, no MIM , etc.
I spent 30+ years as an electro mechanical engineer...I look for imperfections and of the several Wilson's and Browns ( esp the Brown's) they are by far and away the finest semi production 1911's out there.
And don't kid yourself the PRO is NOT a custom gun!
You want custom think Yost, Christiansen(sp), Jim Hoag of Hoag Gun Works ( yeah I'm an old fart), etc.
I DO agree about the resale value , that said you buying it to shoot or resell?? The PRO has it's following but that dosen't make it golden.
Bullseye-777
10-23-12, 19:08
I am going to get flamed but here's my take. Having owned and owning baers, Wilson's and a couple Ed Browns, I feel I can honestly say the 2 ,YES 2 PRO's I bought were not worth the money.
First I don't think ANY custom gun should have MIM parts and the PRO has 6! Not looking to debate the merits of MIM just expressing my opinion.
More than half the Pro's I've handled ( my friend is a SA dealer and gets 4 -6 a year, I fondle them all) , mine included had poorly fitted ambi's, the right side being loose.
I think the TRP for the money is an excellent gun , however as of late they seem to be nearing $1400+ ....$300 more and you can get a baer UTC.?!
the Pro for it's price puts you in Wilson and Ed Brown territory , having owned 3 Wilson's and currently owning a couple Browns, my money would go there before a PRO. All steel, no MIM , etc.
I spent 30+ years as an electro mechanical engineer...I look for imperfections and of the several Wilson's and Browns ( esp the Brown's) they are by far and away the finest semi production 1911's out there.
And don't kid yourself the PRO is NOT a custom gun!
You want custom think Yost, Christiansen(sp), Jim Hoag of Hoag Gun Works ( yeah I'm an old fart), etc.
I DO agree about the resale value , that said you buying it to shoot or resell?? The PRO has it's following but that dosen't make it golden.
What? 6 MIM parts in the Pro? Which parts are you talking about?
I am going to get flamed but here's my take. Having owned and owning baers, Wilson's and a couple Ed Browns, I feel I can honestly say the 2 ,YES 2 PRO's I bought were not worth the money.
First I don't think ANY custom gun should have MIM parts and the PRO has 6! Not looking to debate the merits of MIM just expressing my opinion.
More than half the Pro's I've handled ( my friend is a SA dealer and gets 4 -6 a year, I fondle them all) , mine included had poorly fitted ambi's, the right side being loose.
I think the TRP for the money is an excellent gun , however as of late they seem to be nearing $1400+ ....$300 more and you can get a baer UTC.?!
the Pro for it's price puts you in Wilson and Ed Brown territory , having owned 3 Wilson's and currently owning a couple Browns, my money would go there before a PRO. All steel, no MIM , etc.
I spent 30+ years as an electro mechanical engineer...I look for imperfections and of the several Wilson's and Browns ( esp the Brown's) they are by far and away the finest semi production 1911's out there.
And don't kid yourself the PRO is NOT a custom gun!
You want custom think Yost, Christiansen(sp), Jim Hoag of Hoag Gun Works ( yeah I'm an old fart), etc.
I DO agree about the resale value , that said you buying it to shoot or resell?? The PRO has it's following but that dosen't make it golden.
I had Hoag checker the front strap of one of my Springers. He ain't all that, trust me.
The Pro has a much better short block than Brown or Wilson. The cuts on the barrel are straight and crisp and they are fitted for near zero clearance. Wilsons and Browns are much looser.
Pros have MIM slide stops, mag releases, thumb safeties, and maybe the disconnectors, I'm not sure. But those parts can be replaced. The short block can't be made better. Once the metal is gone, it is gone.
Don't even get me started on the Wilsons. Had a CQB. had to send it back. What they did to it made me sell it.
theJanitor
10-23-12, 21:21
not really relevant to the overall conversation, but in his prime, I don't think anyone built a nicer pistol than Jim Hoag and his mastergrade. Well, maybe the Pachmayr CS and Signature Model
Carry on
Bullseye-777
10-23-12, 21:58
I had Hoag checker the front strap of one of my Springers. He ain't all that, trust me.
The Pro has a much better short block than Brown or Wilson. The cuts on the barrel are straight and crisp and they are fitted for near zero clearance. Wilsons and Browns are much looser.
Pros have MIM slide stops, mag releases, thumb safeties, and maybe the disconnectors, I'm not sure. But those parts can be replaced. The short block can't be made better. Once the metal is gone, it is gone.
The new ones might but not the older ones.
'not the older ones' ..... how old are we talking?? I bought 2, seven years ago and they had MIM!!
Don't believe it call SA they'll confirm the MIM parts.
Bullseye-777
10-23-12, 23:30
'not the older ones' ..... how old are we talking?? I bought 2, seven years ago and they had MIM!!
Don't believe it call SA they'll confirm the MIM parts.
Real early, around 1999. CRG 2xx.
The first pros used Wilson slide stops and they all still use Wilson safety's.
Mag release, slide stop, firing pin stop, and disconector are all MIM. Everything else is cast/machined. Email Deb at the custom shop and she can confirm.
The first pros used Wilson slide stops and they all still use Wilson safety's.
Mag release, slide stop, firing pin stop, and disconector are all MIM. Everything else is cast/machined. Email Deb at the custom shop and she can confirm.
How new is the addition of the MIM parts? I recall they stated no MIM on their web site etc at one point, Been a long time since I checked however.
They have been using selected MIM parts (which they have established do not compromise their reliability in those selected parts) for at LEAST several years. Dave Williams at Springfield Custom told me this 4 years ago in a phone conversation when I had a 1911 being modded there. To get the EXACT year they started doing this, you can contact Springfield Custom shop as mentioned, or ask the hardcore guys in the Springfield forum (http://forums.1911forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=29) at 1911 forums.
....my question is, am I going to see $1000 more value over my TRP?
Absolutely. If this gun is to be used/carried for serious purposes including CCW, get the Pro. If it's a range toy/fun-gun, the TRP may suffice.
How new is the addition of the MIM parts? I recall they stated no MIM on their web site etc at one point, Been a long time since I checked however.
IIRC, the very first Pros from the late 90's may have been all machined/cast with mostly Wilson Parts. I'm not sure when they moved to the Springfield slide stop...
Copied and pasted this from the 1911 forum Springfield Pro discussion thread that was started in '06:
1. Thumb safety on the TRP is a Springfield part, that on the Pro is a Wilson tactical model.
2. Grips are a higher grade Cocobolo made by a US vendor (Altamont).
3. Grip screws are GI slot spec and finished in Black-T, those on the TRP have a narrower slot (which allows complete disassembly of a Pro with nothing more than a cartridge and perhaps a toothpick).
4. Pro hammer and sear are tool steel, those on the TRP are MIM.
5. FP stop on the Pro is marked and finished differently than that on the TRP, it is not the same part.
6. Recoil spring guide and plug on the Pro is GI spec, and the plug is hand checkered. The TRP uses a guide rod and open plug.
7. Plungers and springs are definitely not the same.
8. Ejector on the Pro is a tool steel part, that on the TRP is a MIM part.
MIM is not an issue if it is high quality production and limited to low stress parts. There are thousands of PRO's in circulation and plenty of them are being used by high volume shooters on the HRT and regional SWAT teams. Can anyone recall specific examples of these MIM parts prematurely failing in PRO's? Even a single report of an MIM part going down before say 20K rounds?
If the answer is 'no,' then the MIM is good to go. :D
Only failure on the pros has been the nowlin barrel, feebees changed the spec and now all pros supposedly come with ramped barrels....
Only failure on the pros has been the nowlin barrel, feebees changed the spec and now all pros supposedly come with ramped barrels....
I knew about the barrel situation in the past and intentionally limited to question to MIM parts since it seems to be the main point of contention.
I knew about the barrel situation in the past and intentionally limited to question to MIM parts since it seems to be the main point of contention.
Good point. The MIM thing is of such little concern to me because it's easily correctable. People also need to remember that the early Wilson CQB's used MIM and wasn't until recently that they started using all machined/cast parts.
MIM has become the boogieman of the decade, and to some degree it is for a good reason. A number of pistol manufacturers such as Kimber, Sig, and now Glock began using substandard MIM manufacturing for high-stress small parts such as extractors. The result of this has been a predictable decline in the durability and reliability of these weapons.
On the other hand, high quality MIM in low stress parts such as the mag release is not going to hamper durability. Would I prefer all cast parts? Sure, but I'm not worried about select parts being MIM provided that they are manufactured properly.
Back to the OP's question:
This is a great description of the differences.
Copied and pasted this from the 1911 forum Springfield Pro discussion thread that was started in '06:
1. Thumb safety on the TRP is a Springfield part, that on the Pro is a Wilson tactical model.
2. Grips are a higher grade Cocobolo made by a US vendor (Altamont).
3. Grip screws are GI slot spec and finished in Black-T, those on the TRP have a narrower slot (which allows complete disassembly of a Pro with nothing more than a cartridge and perhaps a toothpick).
4. Pro hammer and sear are tool steel, those on the TRP are MIM.
5. FP stop on the Pro is marked and finished differently than that on the TRP, it is not the same part.
6. Recoil spring guide and plug on the Pro is GI spec, and the plug is hand checkered. The TRP uses a guide rod and open plug.
7. Plungers and springs are definitely not the same.
8. Ejector on the Pro is a tool steel part, that on the TRP is a MIM part.
If you plan to change out PRO parts AND want a light rail model with a standard novak cut instead of an adjustable sight on the TRP it's still a good buy. You would have under 100 dollars in removing the mim plus labor.
If you can grab a TRP for cheap, around 1100, and plan on replacing everything you would have around 500-600 dollars in parts depending on what you want plus labor. Just my 2 cents..
Back to the OP's question:
This is a great description of the differences.
If you plan to change out PRO parts AND want a light rail model with a standard novak cut instead of an adjustable sight on the TRP it's still a good buy. You would have under 100 dollars in removing the mim plus labor.
If you can grab a TRP for cheap, around 1100, and plan on replacing everything you would have around 500-600 dollars in parts depending on what you want plus labor. Just my 2 cents..
Another point to consider is the warranty. I believe that Springfield still boasts a lifetime warranty on all of its pistols. I've sent one of my PRO's back when I started to have extraction problems at about 15,000 rounds. The Custom Shop had it back in my hands within 2 weeks with a new parts no questions asked. I'm not sure what happens when you take a Springfield Loaded and send it to a smith to have parts swapped.
Another point to consider is the warranty. I believe that Springfield still boasts a lifetime warranty on all of its pistols. I've sent one of my PRO's back when I started to have extraction problems at about 15,000 rounds. The Custom Shop had it back in my hands within 2 weeks with a new parts no questions asked. I'm not sure what happens when you take a Springfield Loaded and send it to a smith to have parts swapped.
SA customer service is second to none no doubt, I have used it on my MC Operator and I was not the original owner. Also, if you send a loaded/trp/mil spec to SACS and have them do the work with THEIR parts the warranty remains!
I've owned quite a few off-the-shelf 1911's that ran North of $2500 from all the usual suspects and a fair number of full-custom 1911's that took 3-4 years to have built. If a person has the checkbook, I don't think the SA Pro can be outdone by another off-the-shelf 1911. Some makers go for cosmetics, others with 50y guarantee's, etc. Line them all up and the Pro will probably shoot as well as any, day-in/day-out. I no longer own any Pro's (I've had six in all) but if I had to buy a 1911 that wasn't a full-custom build, that'd be the go-to model.
Bullseye-777
10-24-12, 19:09
As stated, made around 1999. CRG 2xx.
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q252/Franklin-Avenue/My-Springfield-PRO.jpg
Only failure on the pros has been the nowlin barrel, feebees changed the spec and now all pros supposedly come with ramped barrels....
No, some agencies spec a ramped barrel but the standard is still a standard.
Pro is DEFINITELY worth the extra funds if the pistol is going to be used hard or used as a duty pistol.
I have had a few PRO's carried them on Duty for a number of years.
Mandated a Glock now :rolleyes:
I have also owned a few TRPs and Semi's by Wilson,Baer and Ed Brown.
I have owned a number of Custom 1911's built by Yost, Chuck Rogers, Heinie and Larry Vickers would be the high spots amongst others.
The Pro is a better gun than the TRP (it has heavier frame rails and the frame is matched to the slide amongst the things mentioned). I would put the PRO up against any of the Custom guns and i prefer it to the Baer or Brown guns. I would say it was on an equal footing as the CQB Elite I owned for a few years. Had over 30K rounds through one of my PRO's with no issues at all except minor finish wear.
I've shot Nighthawk and Wilson, held Baer, Brown, and the PRO. The Pro is the nicest pistol to ever hit my hand.
I've has SACS rework 3 guns for me, you end up with an amazing gun that is one of kind with the upgrades you want. I think this is the way to go personally. But to your original question I say yes!
The TRP is a nice 1911, but I wanted to get away from the MIM parts in my 1911 and did NOT want to mortgage my house to get a nice 1911 so I went with the Dan Wesson Valor.
It was a great relief to finally get a nice 1911 that is fitted so well, shoots lights-out and is reliable.....all for under $1800.
Looked at Fusion Customs because I could have had one built for just under $2000......and a few other high-end 1911s but I can't justify paying over $2000 for a 1911 when there are 1911s like the Dan Wesson Valor....and other Wesson models that are everything one would want in a quality 1911.
CZ is making the Valor under the Dan Wesson name and they're doing an excellent job....worth every penny IMHO.
TurretGunner
12-12-12, 10:01
I had Hoag checker the front strap of one of my Springers. He ain't all that, trust me.
The Pro has a much better short block than Brown or Wilson. The cuts on the barrel are straight and crisp and they are fitted for near zero clearance. Wilsons and Browns are much looser.
Pros have MIM slide stops, mag releases, thumb safeties, and maybe the disconnectors, I'm not sure. But those parts can be replaced. The short block can't be made better. Once the metal is gone, it is gone.
Don't even get me started on the Wilsons. Had a CQB. had to send it back. What they did to it made me sell it.
No offesne, but if your paying $3k For a semi-custom/production you should not be replacing any parts beacuse they are subpar.
Preference, yeah I understand that. If you want it right the first time get a Wilson/NH or if you dont want to spend as much, a DW.
TurretGunner
12-12-12, 10:16
I've owned quite a few off-the-shelf 1911's that ran North of $2500 from all the usual suspects and a fair number of full-custom 1911's that took 3-4 years to have built. If a person has the checkbook, I don't think the SA Pro can be outdone by another off-the-shelf 1911. Some makers go for cosmetics, others with 50y guarantee's, etc. Line them all up and the Pro will probably shoot as well as any, day-in/day-out. I no longer own any Pro's (I've had six in all) but if I had to buy a 1911 that wasn't a full-custom build, that'd be the go-to model.
You should read this:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=321236
When a gun half the price has better accuracy and seemingly higher quality parts, you know there is an issue.
If it was my money (3 grand+) I would stick with someone who doesnt cut corners like Wilson/NHC.
Good thing SA has that warrante, beacuse based on all of the production 1911's I have seen them put out, your going to need it.
You should read this:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=321236
When a gun half the price has better accuracy and seemingly higher quality parts, you know there is an issue.
If it was my money (3 grand+) I would stick with someone who doesnt cut corners like Wilson/NHC.
Good thing SA has that warrante, beacuse based on all of the production 1911's I have seen them put out, your going to need it.
First, thank you for that link to 1911forum.com. That was easily the single best review posting that I have ever seen on ANY forum - ever.
However, I'm going to point out that the review only covered one aspect of the PRO's performance - accuracy out of the box. Interestingly, it essentially met the accuracy requirement of 1.5" at 25 yards even thought it was conducted with ammo other than the FBI issue. It never tested the other 50% of the PRO's accuracy reputation which is persistent performance after high round counts. Thus, to get the other 50% of the accuracy story we need to perform an endurance test similar to the FBI's protocol:
"While all of the FBI's requirements were demanding, the most rigorous was accuracy. Chosen at random, two of the five guns had to shoot no more than 1.5" at 25 yards for three 10-shot groups from a Ransom Rest. Then the guns would be shot for 20,000 rounds in an endurance test, after which a second accuracy test would be conducted with no more than 15 percent degradation in accuracy being acceptable.
Once this is accomplished, we need to look at reliability. After all, do you want a gun that shoot 0.5" groups but has twice the failure rate of the gun that shoots 1.5" groups?
Does DW make a great gun? Absolutely. Do we know how each of these contenders fairs in an endurance test of accuracy AND reliability? Not really since the PRO is the only one to have passed such a test. Thus, I'd be hesitant the choose one manufacturer over the other until we know the other 50% of the story.
TurretGunner
12-13-12, 11:44
First, thank you for that link to 1911forum.com. That was easily the single best review posting that I have ever seen on ANY forum - ever.
However, I'm going to point out that the review only covered one aspect of the PRO's performance - accuracy out of the box. Interestingly, it essentially met the accuracy requirement of 1.5" at 25 yards even thought it was conducted with ammo other than the FBI issue. It never tested the other 50% of the PRO's accuracy reputation which is persistent performance after high round counts. Thus, to get the other 50% of the accuracy story we need to perform an endurance test similar to the FBI's protocol:
"While all of the FBI's requirements were demanding, the most rigorous was accuracy. Chosen at random, two of the five guns had to shoot no more than 1.5" at 25 yards for three 10-shot groups from a Ransom Rest. Then the guns would be shot for 20,000 rounds in an endurance test, after which a second accuracy test would be conducted with no more than 15 percent degradation in accuracy being acceptable.
Once this is accomplished, we need to look at reliability. After all, do you want a gun that shoot 0.5" groups but has twice the failure rate of the fun that shoots 1.5" groups?
Does DW make a great gun? Absolutely. Do we know how each of these contenders fairs in an endurance test of accuracy AND reliability? Not really since the PRO is the only one to have passed such a test. Thus, I'd be hesitant the choose one manufacturer over the other until we know the other 50% of the story.
Very good points. It would be interesting to see a tourture test of sorts with quality mags and ammo.
It would most likley be cost prohibitive, and as you know the *majority* of people that own expensive semi and customs dont exactly run them like a fighting weapon.
If you have handled semi/custom than you know how smooth they are, how well fitted and the amount of labor involved to get them into that state. What you don't know is how that translates into high round count reliability.
I take the FBI's RFP and selection with a grain of salt. As someone who works in government procurement, its not always the best product/value/solution that gets the award. Did NHC/Wilson/Les/ect all submit canidates and bids for the solicitation? I honestly don't know.
Did NHC/Wilson/Les/ect all submit canidates and bids for the solicitation? I honestly don't know.
Most of the major manufactures made submissions. Les Baer actually held the contract before the RFP. However, there were significant problems with the LB pistols, and only 75 out of the requested 250 were delivered before the contract was cancelled. Colt, Wilson, and Kimber were eliminated due to the accuracy requirement. As usual, Colt filed a protest but was denied. Of the three accuracy failures, Kimber faired the worst with > 3" groups after the endurance test. At the end of the accuracy test, only Springfield and Professional Gunsmithing Inc. (Matt Gish) met the standard. However, Gish could not meet the contract numbers or the 50,000 round service requirements.
It should be noted that Nighthawk did not exist as independent company when the selection process was completed. All of their smiths were still working at Wilson during that period.
I understand the Ed Brown and Les Baer submissions were eliminated during the testing, but I'm not sure why. Rumor has it that many submissions had problems with the accuracy requirement that specified Remington Golden Saber ammo.
TurretGunner
12-13-12, 16:15
Most of the major manufactures made submissions. Les Baer actually held the contract before the RFP. However, there were significant problems with the LB pistols, and only 75 out of the requested 250 were delivered before the contract was cancelled. Colt, Wilson, and Kimber were eliminated due to the accuracy requirement. As usual, Colt filed a protest but was denied. Of the three accuracy failures, Kimber faired the worst with > 3" groups after the endurance test. At the end of the accuracy test, only Springfield and Professional Gunsmithing Inc. (Matt Gish) met the standard. However, Gish could not meet the contract numbers or the 50,000 round service requirements.
It should be noted that Nighthawk did not exist as independent company when the selection process was completed. All of their smiths were still working at Wilson during that period.
I understand the Ed Brown and Les Baer submissions were eliminated during the testing, but I'm not sure why. Rumor has it that many submissions had problems with the accuracy requirement that specified Remington Golden Saber ammo.
Thanks for the info. I decided to do some research and dug this up. I don't know how reliable the source is, so this post is based on that being fact. Here are some things that jump out to me:
1. Initial AFP was for a double stack 1911. There were limited firms who could produce this, and Les had some issues with gunsmiths leaving and meeting the contractual obligations.
2. For whatever reason, they decided to terminate the contract for cause and reissue a solicitation for single stack 1911.
3. I know this was 15 years ago, but its important to point out that the requirement was for golden sabre ammo. Anyone who has shot remington pistol ammo, knows there are issues with QC and as a result, reliability. Poor choice in ammo (another issue) for the agency.
4. It sounds like another firm (which I would assume is small business) also met the standards but was not awarded because there was doubt they could fullfil the contract. I find this questionable as they only requires 200 pistols a year plus warranty and support. It's pretty obvious they would have been able to take on additional labor and capital to expand should they have been awarded. Having seen a metric shit on of proposals, almost all of the ones coming from inherit smaller firms have schedule for expansion as consideration of the award.
It bassically comes down to this. FBI put out some very specific requirements, that were obviously tailored to certain products. They were most likely scared of getting into another situation like the one with Les where the contract would be in jeapordy and they might not get the pistols and support needed for them to complete their mission. Part of this is Les's fault and part of this is the governments fault for not managing their contract closer and working with the vendor to come up with solutions to satisfy the contract. It is MUCH cheaper and time intensive to step in and work with the vendor and fix the issues than to kill the contract and start over from scratch. It sounds like from the begining they wanted SA in part because of their size and support network.
I have an issue with people claiming that the SA Pro is the best 1911 based on situations like this. Change the ammo and would they still come out on top? Did they even come out on top in accuracy and reliability or was that looked over in favor of price and support? It won a very specific battery of tests, in a controlled enviroment with very questionable metrics. This does not translate to it being better than a NHC or Wilson, ect in real world situations, with high round counts, and modern quality ammo. That is why I was saying earlier how nice it would be for a high end endurance test to see how they line up. This however is not going to happen beacuse there is much more to lose than gain for the majority( those who come up short).
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/fbi_1911.htm
Battlepack
12-13-12, 18:21
Very intriguing reading on the selection of the Pro by the FBI. Interestingly enough with regards to the original thread title, I have the best of both worlds. It's a 10-8 Operator built by SACS to Hilton Yam's specs, and is a cross between the Pro and TRP. It has been a wonderful pistola to date.
I have an issue with people claiming that the SA Pro is the best 1911 based on situations like this. Change the ammo and would they still come out on top? Did they even come out on top in accuracy and reliability or was that looked over in favor of price and support? It won a very specific battery of tests, in a controlled enviroment with very questionable metrics.
How about this:
They are the best based on the following-
1. Fit- they are fitted for zero clearance. The barrel hood cuts, for example, are square and precise and done on a mill. The slide has no play in or out of battery. They are fitted like a Sig P210. Now, rabid Glock owners will say that tight clearances are detrimental to reliability. They need to read point #5.
2. Quality components- forged slide, frame, barrel is excellent quality and so are the small parts.
3. Finish- Black T is a great finish.
4. Price- reasonable for what you get.
5. Reliability- mine run 100% with low-power SWC or high-power JHP.
TurretGunner
12-16-12, 17:52
How about this:
They are the best based on the following-
1. Fit- they are fitted for zero clearance. The barrel hood cuts, for example, are square and precise and done on a mill. The slide has no play in or out of battery. They are fitted like a Sig P210. Now, rabid Glock owners will say that tight clearances are detrimental to reliability. They need to read point #5.
2. Quality components- forged slide, frame, barrel is excellent quality and so are the small parts.
3. Finish- Black T is a great finish.
4. Price- reasonable for what you get.
5. Reliability- mine run 100% with low-power SWC or high-power JHP.
1. Many high end 1911's have this. My DW Specialists is AS tight as any 1911 I have ever handled besides a Les Baer.
2. Like I said, most high end 1911's use quality forged parts. However Springfield finds it acceptable to use MIM parts on a $3300 Pistol. That is unacceptable.
3. Many high end 1911 makers, including productions guns like the DW Valor/Specialist also have a melonite/tenifer/salt nitrate finish.
4. Not even close to a reasonable value. $3300 + 15 month wait for a gun that uses MIM parts and is bottom of the barrel for accuracy among the other custom/semi custom manufactures.
5. Most high end 1911's are reliable. Its all relative.
With all that being said, people are free to buy what they want. However I will shop elsewhere and get more product for my money or a better value. I could care less what some group of federal agents choose as sidearm, much less what the US military choose as a sidearm. Hint * They were cheaper and were not even the best candidate.
1. Many high-end 1911's do not have this. In fact, no other high end 1911, other than a full blown custom gun, has this.
2. They use MIM in areas where MIM deficits do not matter. Those MIM parts are easily replaced for a nominal cost if one is so inclined. If one pays $3300 for a pistol and has to wait a year, he can send SA his non-MIM parts to build the gun with. In the greater scheme of things, this task is inconsequential. Having owned Baers, Colts, and a Wilson I can safely say the superb craftsmanship in the rest of the gun is well worth it.
I prefer Wilson Combat. I own a Colt Series 70 Gold Cup that was initially stamped by Wilson Combat on the frame THEN by Novak's on the slide when it was sent in for a refresh. I own a Nighthawk that was a personal R&D pistol used by LAV during his eval for Nighthawk. It is a slick piece to say the list and I know Larry had to have performed his suite of upgrades he spec's for 1911's. Last but not least, my first entry into the semi-custom market, the Ed Brown Special Forces. I used this pistol for a few a few LAV classes as well as plenty of my own range time and it has been flawless thru everything.
So, I guess one can say I enjoy the platform. From what I've gathered intel wise, magazines are a critical component in weapon reliability. Bad mags can make an awesome gun choke. Not a good situation. Next thing I would after buying some Wilson Combat 47d's and newer 500's is replace your recoil spring with an 18 lb Wolff. Last but not least (and this should actually be number one on the list) is to keep that baby properly lubricated. That is another critical facet to weapon reliability.
If that doesn't do the trick...I hate to say it but maybe thin the herd a little and use the money to invest in another 1911 that's a step or two up the ladder money wise. If it were my money, I'd look for a Wilson Combat CQB Enhanced. If my budget wasn't that high, look for one second hand. Then again, my Ed Brown SF 1911 is the heat for it's price point and ridiculously high performance in the area's of reliability and accuracy. I never ransom rested the EB for accuracy but she alway places a round exactly where I point. Her only thrown shot's are when I snatch my trigger so its operator era there.
Whatever your decision, I'm sure you'll be pleased with it OP. Let us know how the situation develops. Lee
TurretGunner
12-16-12, 19:23
1. Many high-end 1911's do not have this. In fact, no other high end 1911, other than a full blown custom gun, has this.
2. They use MIM in areas where MIM deficits do not matter. Those MIM parts are easily replaced for a nominal cost if one is so inclined. If one pays $3300 for a pistol and has to wait a year, he can send SA his non-MIM parts to build the gun with. In the greater scheme of things, this task is inconsequential. Having owned Baers, Colts, and a Wilson I can safely say the superb craftsmanship in the rest of the gun is well worth it.
So a SA Pro is tighter than a Les Baer? Its tighter than all the others? Get real. You cannot get any tighter without destroying reliabiliy.
There is no reason whatsover to use MIM in pistol of this price. Why the **** would someone spend $3000+ on a custom pistol, wait over a year, just so they can send it out to someone to fix the shit that should be been right the first time. You know how insane that sounds right?
If Les and DW can build pistols using all forged and barstock parts, and still sell them for less than $2K, then why can't SA at over 150% of their price?
It is tighter than a Les Baer. SA Custom Shop machines the frames to fit the slides based on individual slide dimensions, then they lap them in. This way there is near zero clearance which is easily confirmed by placing the frame and slide assembly in a vice and measuring the side to side and up/down movement with a dial indicator.
Les Baers seem tight until you remove the barrel from the equation. Then they are no tighter than Wilson, Brown, Night Hawk, or the other semi-customs.
Les Baers are not all forged and barstock.
Hogsgunwild
12-25-12, 06:42
So a SA Pro is tighter than a Les Baer? Its tighter than all the others? Get real. You cannot get any tighter without destroying reliabiliy.
There is no reason whatsover to use MIM in pistol of this price. Why the **** would someone spend $3000+ on a custom pistol, wait over a year, just so they can send it out to someone to fix the shit that should be been right the first time. You know how insane that sounds right?
If Les and DW can build pistols using all forged and barstock parts, and still sell them for less than $2K, then why can't SA at over 150% of their price?
I picked my Pro after fingering three new ones in stock at the Scottsdale Gun Club. All three were so tight that there was only one gripping method that any of us that were there could use to get the slide back. After running over a hundred rounds through my Pro, you could begin to be able to cycle the slide in a normal manner.
My Pro was easily tighter than the Les Baer SRP that I also ordered new from LB.
Quality? My gunsmith (Nelson Ford) had both the Pro and SRP in front of him. We took the slides off and he pointed out about six items that he found that were sloppy or poorly done on the SRP. He said some would lead to problems in time. He was impressed with the quality of the Pro and found nothing lacking.
The SRP was fairly reliable (except for an extractor issue that some bending fixed) but it just seemed so much cruder than my Pro.
I sold the SRP (Baer's top of the line, by the way) as it just never did it for me after my experience with it and the Pro. They both cost about the same. The Pro easily out-classed the SRP.
I have had complete lemons from Nighthawk and Wilson. Both required two trips each back to the factories. Wilson never did get it right and I paid Nelson for a reliability job so that I would not screw whoever bought it from me. No more semi-customs for me. It is either a reputable gunsmith or the Springfield Custom Shop for me.
I don't own a TRP and have never shot one. I just picked up a Pro and have to say that I am very happy so far. I own a couple of Nighthawks and they have been great but the fitting is les stellar than the Pro. Extremely tight and runs like a race horse out of the box. It has become my favorite 1911, second to my Volkmann which is absolutely amazing!
"...I have had complete lemons from Nighthawk and Wilson. Both required two trips each back to the factories. Wilson never did get it right..."
i know we're talking about a small sample size here, but i don't get this. how can a shop that hand assembles and tests stuff put out complete lemons. i believe you. I just shake my head at this in general. Seems those folks who have functional 1911's "got lucky", if 2 top brands producing > $2000 pistols both provided you with sub-par products that required multiple return service. I know this is the 1911 forum, and i'm not bashing, just shaking my head.
Other than not having MIM parts, no. If I were going to spend top dollars on a 1911, Wilson Combat would be getting my business.
Except that the Pro does have some MIM parts as another member pointed out. The Pro probably receives more TLC in the fitment, but a lot of TRPs come out very well.
Wilsons are tremendous, but one pays dearly.
Dan Wesson 1911s are true non-MIM examples and they are priced reasonably for what they are.
TurretGunner
01-22-13, 17:33
Except that the Pro does have some MIM parts as another member pointed out. The Pro probably receives more TLC in the fitment, but a lot of TRPs come out very well.
Wilsons are tremendous, but one pays dearly.
Dan Wesson 1911s are true non-MIM examples and they are priced reasonably for what they are.
Yep, I dont think there is a better value out there than the DW Valor/Specialists. Mine is tighter than the virgin Mary.
lolz at people who think that MIM is the defining factor in whether a pistol is good or not.
lolz at people who think that MIM is the defining factor in whether a pistol is good or not.
I didn't see anyone assert as much on this thread.
TurretGunner
01-23-13, 16:25
lolz at people who think that MIM is the defining factor in whether a pistol is good or not.
There is no reason whatsoever it should be used on a $1500+ Pistol. That is the issue.
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