View Full Version : Is the M&P too successful?
Stopped by the local gun store yesterday and checked out a few M&P 45s and 9s. The triggers were terrible! They were the worst triggers I have ever felt on an M&P. Has the line gotten so popular quality is suffering?
The newest guns (just got some in today) have the best trigger yet (as S&W has upgraded the trigger bar to give a positive reset).
So my guess is that you looked at older guns.
Keep in mind that with a LITTLE polish work (or several thousand rounds), everything cleans up very well. So I wouldn't put too much thought into it.
C4
Dos Cylindros
09-05-12, 20:05
The newest guns (just got some in today) have the best trigger yet (as S&W has upgraded the trigger bar to give a positive reset).
So my guess is that you looked at older guns.
Keep in mind that with a LITTLE polish work (or several thousand rounds), everything cleans up very well. So I wouldn't put too much thought into it.
C4
I agree 100%. I have a full size .45, and he compact, along with the full size .40 I carry on duty. None of he triggers are what I would call match quality, but in the real world of what these guns are intended for it does not matter one bit. They are fighting weapons, not target guns. That being said, aside from the fact that the reset is not "Glock like," they are fine triggers and the guns hit what you aim at.
my two 2012 m&ps have much improved triggers over my 2009 fs m&p. The take up in the beginning is "gritty" but that doesn't bother me at all. The break is crisp and there is very little creep. The reset it "tactile" but doesn't click like a glock
my generation 3 glock 19s have similar triggers but with an audible reset and no "grit." my generation 4 glock 19s (both 2012, one fde) have much more creep than I'm used to in a glock trigger.
The store I was at was one of the highest volume dealers in Washington state so they wouldn't have been sitting in the case long. I can't speak for the distributor though.
I have an M&P 9 full size and compact. My full size came with the Apex kit installed (thanks Grant!) but my compact, which is a few years old, came stock. These were all much worse than the compact. The worst was a full size 45 that had to have been at least 8 or 10 pounds and very squishy. If you've messed around with the M&P .380 it reminded me of that. With all of the talk of improvements I was surprised.
gunrunner505
09-05-12, 22:06
My M&P40 full size isn't bad at all. Trigger is pretty good all things considered for a down and dirty combat pistol.
Plus, it has been 100% dead reliable and accurate, 2 things that are probably important.
I would second what Grant said, even if you get one with the older gritty trigger, it definitely smooths up with use. My compact 9 still has the original factory trigger, and it was downright crunchy at first. Now after about 1500 rounds that thing is pretty smooth and I may never bother to put an Apex kit in it.
Also, I've noticed that if you practice, even the gritty factory triggers really don't limit your accuracy potential. They're just not quite as fun to shoot as an Apex trigger. :-)
They take a thousand rounds to break in, then they're better. If you don't have another use for those thousand rounds (training, practice, etc.) then the Apex kit is cheaper, and you get a better trigger straight out of the box. The real issue with Apex kits is the same as Giessele triggers - might as well pony up for them across each one you own.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Smith has supposedly been improving the M&P since it came out and the 45s are supposed to be the best ones. Given the trigger pull on these examples - and I'm talking the weight of the pull too, not just the grittiness, they still have a long way to go in getting a fully QC'd finished product out the door. A decent pistol shouldn't need 1,000 rounds, Apex parts, or cleanup to reach its out of the box potential.
A decent pistol shouldn't need 1,000 rounds, Apex parts, or cleanup to reach its out of the box potential.
Agreed in theory, but once you get there, they are a fine product.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Smith has supposedly been improving the M&P since it came out and the 45s are supposed to be the best ones. Given the trigger pull on these examples - and I'm talking the weight of the pull too, not just the grittiness, they still have a long way to go in getting a fully QC'd finished product out the door. A decent pistol shouldn't need 1,000 rounds, Apex parts, or cleanup to reach its out of the box potential.
I honestly don't think it does need a break in period. The QC on the 4 I own have been great, and the gun has improved since the first one I bought in 2009.
maybe the samples you tried have been sitting in the display case a long time?
I honestly don't understand the hate for the stock m&p trigger. A clean break is the most important thing to me, and the m&p (recent ones at least) has the best break of a polymer striker fired gun besides the PPQ (my opinion). There is also very little creep
the grittiness before the break is inconsequential to me, I don't get how that affects shoot-ability. The reset isn't audible, but i can still "feel" it and it doesn't slap back against my finger like others do.
The trigger is shaped better than others (doesn't come to a point due to trigger safety) and is comfortable for extended shooting sessions.
Stopped by the local gun store yesterday and checked out a few M&P 45s and 9s. The triggers were terrible! They were the worst triggers I have ever felt on an M&P. Has the line gotten so popular quality is suffering?
no quality issues here. awesome guns:cool:
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Smith has supposedly been improving the M&P since it came out and the 45s are supposed to be the best ones. Given the trigger pull on these examples - and I'm talking the weight of the pull too, not just the grittiness, they still have a long way to go in getting a fully QC'd finished product out the door. A decent pistol shouldn't need 1,000 rounds, Apex parts, or cleanup to reach its out of the box potential.
To my knowledge, about the only gun that doesn't need a break in period, polishing or ANY factory or aftermarket parts is probably the Walther PPQ.
IMHO, asking for a $400 dollar gun to be accurate, reliable and have a great trigger right out of the box is asking a bit much. With just 5-10 minutes of polishing the factory parts, the gun is an outstanding firearm.
C4
theblackknight
09-06-12, 20:23
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Smith has supposedly been improving the M&P since it came out and the 45s are supposed to be the best ones. Given the trigger pull on these examples - and I'm talking the weight of the pull too, not just the grittiness, they still have a long way to go in getting a fully QC'd finished product out the door. A decent pistol shouldn't need 1,000 rounds, Apex parts, or cleanup to reach its out of the box potential.
I didnt realize there was a perfect pistol out there.
These guns had crap triggers and the 9s were. . . Yeah.
Glocks cant eject, have horrible sights and need a grip reduction.
FNS is a new gun
Ditto for caracal, plus that weird rear sight.
Xds. .. . Lol.
Hks are overpriced and ditto for mags.
Etc etc etc but when these new smith 9s get out that are all accurate and have a decent trigger, they will still be my choice over glock.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
The newest guns (just got some in today) have the best trigger yet (as S&W has upgraded the trigger bar to give a positive reset).
Had no idea. Yay, my one gripe with the trigger has been fixed.
Pretty much any trigger related gripes can be solved with Apex parts. The Apex FFS, for example.
I've never seen M&P triggers as all that problematic, if its the pistol system you've dedicated yourself to, then just deal with it! Perfect you relationship with the firearm, and the trigger will work itself out for you.
M&P's, like Glock's, are fine guns...
brickboy240
09-07-12, 10:38
maybe
But I think that Glock and others have also gotten "too popular" and that is a reason why these two platforms have seen a shift in QC as of lately.
With the M&P...many new time pistol buyers will NEVER notice or be bothered by the things that bother us like the inaccuracy of the 9mm M&P or their lack of trigger re-set.
With the Glock 9mms...same thing. Many G19 buyers never reach the number of rounds to see the erratic ejection that many of us notice and are bothered by. They will think these quirks are normal because their scope of gun experience is small.
Most M&P 9mm full-size and Glock 17/19 buyers buy the gun brand new...take it out maybe 1-2 times a year and run a box or two through the things and that is it. The rest of the year...the things sit in their case or under someone's bed or back of dresser drawer.
The large gun makers are catering to the mass buyers and are not concerned with us picky and more experienced shooters. They probably figure people like us are going to totally mod their guns out anyways so why bother with fixing triggers, ejection problems or slight accuracy problems?
The gun makers that CATER to pickier shooters, like Wilson, Les Baer, HK and Nighthawk DO care about QC and offer only expensive guns that DO run very well right off the bat. They do not offer any lower prices mass-audience guns and don't care for that segment of the marketplace.
The larger gun makers USED to have this philosophy in their QC depts...but today...forget it...its crank them out and get them out the door fast. Their reputation is already built from their older guns and they are resting on this reputation. They are also racing to crank out guns before Obama' second term because that might spell the end of their hey days that are going on right now.
This is just a theory...but I bet there is some truth in there somewhere.
-brickboy240
To my knowledge, about the only gun that doesn't need a break in period, polishing or ANY factory or aftermarket parts is probably the Walther PPQ.
IMHO, asking for a $400 dollar gun to be accurate, reliable and have a great trigger right out of the box is asking a bit much. With just 5-10 minutes of polishing the factory parts, the gun is an outstanding firearm.
C4
Have you tried a Caracal?
Have you tried a Caracal?
I have not. Since this company is virtually an unknown, we need to see about 50 guns shot to at least 5000rds (each) before recommending them (as a hard use tool).
C4
brickboy240
09-07-12, 11:41
The Caracal is VERY tempting since it can be had for 399 at Centerfire Systems right now.
A co-worker of mine has the Caracal F and he is going to let me borrow it in a week or so. Can't wait to shoot it.
It feels really nice in the hand and is about the size of a G19. The trigger is something I can live with and has a very noticeable re-set. It has a pretty nice fit and finish. The rear sight is the only thing that I am not sure about but other than that...it looks really nice for the price. I'll know more once I run 200-300 rounds through it in a week or so.
As a long time Glock shooter (19, 17 & 22) I don't know if this is THE replacement for the other 9mms that are showing odd QC issues but for 400 bucks, I really think you could buy a much crappier 9mm service pistol.
-brickboy240
I recently bought a FS from Grant and I was not real impressed with the trigger on it. It felt like the trigger had some sand stuck in it all of the time. I just got the Apex DCAEK installed and it made a huge difference to me. I hope to get out next week and shoot it.
MiamiCracker
09-07-12, 13:57
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that Smith has supposedly been improving the M&P since it came out and the 45s are supposed to be the best ones. Given the trigger pull on these examples - and I'm talking the weight of the pull too, not just the grittiness, they still have a long way to go in getting a fully QC'd finished product out the door. A decent pistol shouldn't need 1,000 rounds, Apex parts, or cleanup to reach its out of the box potential.
That's why I ended up getting a Walther PPQ, but I still would consider the 9c as CCW.
MiamiCracker
09-07-12, 14:05
To my knowledge, about the only gun that doesn't need a break in period, polishing or ANY factory or aftermarket parts is probably the Walther PPQ
C4
Maybe some night sights but that's about it
brickboy240
09-07-12, 15:02
If Glock fixed their ejection problems and came with the factory trigger of the PPQ...we would most likely not be talking about any other 9mm pistols right now...would we?
LOL
-brickboy240
If Glock fixed their ejection problems and came with the factory trigger of the PPQ...we would most likely not be talking about any other 9mm pistols right now...would we?
LOL
-brickboy240
yea but you could say that about any handgun. All guns have issues...
and the PPQ is nice, but it's a good bit more expensive than the m&p
Stopped by the local gun store yesterday and checked out a few M&P 45s and 9s. The triggers were terrible! They were the worst triggers I have ever felt on an M&P. Has the line gotten so popular quality is suffering?
I think you're nitpicking, and what you're describing is not a quality issue. The standard M&P is not marketed as a target gun, it is marketed as a duty/self defense pistol. While you may have higher expectations of what that entails you should realize that those expectations may not be realistic.
theblackknight
09-07-12, 16:14
yea but you could say that about any handgun. All guns have issues...
NO! There is a perfect handgun out there, just no one makes it yet.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
brickboy240
09-07-12, 16:22
Around here, the full size M&P9 is $499.
The Walther PPQ 9mm is $599.
Since you have to put 100 dollars into the M&P to get anything that slightly resembles the PPQs trigger....there is simply not a huge price gap.
Now the gap between say, the P-30 and M&P...well that is huge but not between the PPQ and M&P.
-brickboy240
and the PPQ is nice, but it's a good bit more expensive than the m&p
People have reported getting a brand new PPQ for $489.
If people shoot best with an M&P or Glock, then I would at least understand the reason for wanting to pick one up, but I have a hard time believing that everyone who buys one of these wouldn't shoot just as well, or better, with a make and model of pistol that has had no reported issues.
Every time I see a comparison thread between a "not-as-popular" pistol compared with an M&P or a Glock, I always see the term "proven" being used in defense of the M&P or Glock. The M&P model line has never been problem-free, and recently produced Glocks are not doing as well as their older models used to.
I don't understand what the appeal is to these pistols. The only things that these pistols have over the "not-as-popular" pistols are more sight options, and to a lesser extent, more holster options. Is this the reason why so many people recommend pistols with known issues to so many people?
The M&P line has never been problem-free. All that it has proven, is that it has, and has always had issues. The Glock is as proven as a 1911, or any other mass-produced pistol that used to work "back then".
Why do you guys chose to buy and recommend these two "proven" pistols? I really would like to know your own personal reasons for buying and/or recommending them.
Is it because you shoot them better than other pistols with no known issues?
Is it aftermarket support only?
I see a pistol like a PPQ, and I think to myself, I don't need aftermarket extended mag releases, I don't need aftermarket extended slide releases, I don't need aftermarket grip reductions, I don't need aftermarket barrels, I don't need aftermarket trigger modifications, I don't need aftermarket extractors, I don't need aftermarket ejectors, I don't need aftermarket recoil spring assemblies,.....etc.
How much does that Glock or M&P cost after you have made it reliable, after you have made it accurate, and after you have made it fit you?
What would have had to happen for a pistol like an M&P to NOT have been considered "proven"?
What else could possibly go wrong with the design? They have had and still have accuracy issues. They have had rust issues. They have had mag catch issues. They have had sear issues. They have had striker issues. They have had magazine issues. And according to every single Apex trigger modification sold, their triggers could use some improvement.
So you buy a pistol design with well known issues because another design that has been on the market for at least a year with no reported issues, may, or may not, have some later on?
Is this the reason?
GLOCKMASTER
09-07-12, 16:49
If the problems with our 1800 pistols are any indication then I would say yes S&W's quality control has hit rock bottom and it appears it's not going to get better any time soon. They just can't seem to get their shit together and alot of it appears to be coming from the engineers side of the house. At one point I was impressed with S&W and the M&P however, after the issues we have had with our pistols that impression is long gone. I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't end up in litigation with them over our issues and their failure to resolve the issues in a timely manner.
If the problems with our 1800 pistols are any indication then I would say yes S&W's quality control has hit rock bottom and it appears it's not going to get better any time soon. They just can't seem to get their shit together and alot of it appears to be coming from the engineers side of the house. At one point I was impressed with S&W and the M&P however, after the issues we have had with our pistols that impression is long gone. I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't end up in litigation with them over our issues and their failure to resolve the issues in a timely manner.
Sir, could you elaborate on the model of M&P your organization uses and type of problems? Specifically, is there a recurring theme to the problem?
GLOCKMASTER
09-07-12, 17:19
Sir, could you elaborate on the model of M&P your organization uses and type of problems? Specifically, is there a recurring theme to the problem?
We have the M&P .357.
Until the issues are resolved I prefer not to go into detail about the issues. I will say yes there is a recurring theme to the problem that has been seen statewide. Some of the issues have been seen by other departments but they have tried blaming the ammunition when clearly that is not the problem.
I would like to go into detail about the issues but it's best for now that I not.
Our State Police have 357sig M&P's and the biggest issue they seem to have is rust on some which could be fixed with proper maintenance
GLOCKMASTER
09-07-12, 17:35
Our State Police have 357sig M&P's and the biggest issue they seem to have is rust on some which could be fixed with proper maintenance
I understand the proper maintenance comment however, the slides are not suppose to rust.
IMHO, asking for a $400 dollar gun to be accurate, reliable and have a great trigger right out of the box is asking a bit much.
THIS.
I understand the proper maintenance comment however, the slides are not suppose to rust.
You wont hear me argue against that...lol. I will say that a little Froglube goes a long way to fixing that problem.
I understand the proper maintenance comment however, the slides are not suppose to rust.
I know some early batches had some rust issues that were due to improper application of the melonite treatment. I was at S&W when a small ish PD came in and had all their slides replaced after the folks at S&W took a look at them. If you have newer guns with rust issues, then I'm out of the loop on that and I hope they make it right for you guys. It's been my experience it's very rare for S&W to blame the user for such a problem (as Glock is fond of doing but we wont go there...) so I hope that's not the case with you guys. Anyway, good luck sir!
GLOCKMASTER
09-07-12, 18:24
I know some early batches had some rust issues that were due to improper application of the melonite treatment. I was at S&W when a small ish PD came in and had all their slides replaced after the folks at S&W took a look at them. If you have newer guns with rust issues, then I'm out of the loop on that and I hope they make it right for you guys. It's been my experience it's very rare for S&W to blame the user for such a problem (as Glock is fond of doing but we wont go there...) so I hope that's not the case with you guys. Anyway, good luck sir!
S&W's custom service for the rust issue has been good as they have shipped us many replacement slides. Bad thing is that some of the replacement slides had rust on them ehen they arrived.
Hopefully they will eventually fix these issues but IMHO there will need to be some changes made in the engineering department first.
S&W's custom service for the rust issue has been good as they have shipped us many replacement slides. Bad thing is that some of the replacement slides had rust on them ehen they arrived.
Hopefully they will eventually fix these issues but IMHO there will need to be some changes made in the engineering department first.
were there other issues besides the rust?
The newest guns (just got some in today) have the best trigger yet (as S&W has upgraded the trigger bar to give a positive reset
Grant,
If I missed it in this thread or another about the reset I apologize for the redundancy but on the newer versions how close is this to the Shield's reset? Thanks,
-Jax
theblackknight
09-07-12, 20:15
How much does that Glock or M&P cost after you have made it reliable, after you have made it accurate, and after you have made it fit you?
Bought mine carry MP for 469 with a rebate for 2 free mags(60$)
and a 50$ rebate.The gun is now 359$. Shot it for a while.(9K rds) Got a 40$ apex sear.After the first 300 rounds, I tried the large backstrap and shot better with it. What backstrapps come with the PPQ?
It shoots good,I'm used to it now. Most NC agencies use them. S&W reportedly fixed the trigger and the 9's lockup shits. A apex sear,set of sights and its still not in HK price range(would get sights too),I cant et mags for sometimes low as 20$ per, and NLT is releasing a M&P model SIRT. Which brings up a good point. . . . .
What backstraps come with the PPQ?
Small, Medium, and Large.
I wasn't aware that S&W fixed the accuracy issues with the 9mm.
Grant,
If I missed it in this thread or another about the reset I apologize for the redundancy but on the newer versions how close is this to the Shield's reset? Thanks,
-Jax
Pretty close I think.
C4
Sounds promising. I'll still keep my'Apexed' April 2010 model but I was very impressed with the one and only Shield I got to shoot. Thanks for the reply Grant.
-Jax
theblackknight
09-07-12, 21:16
Small, Medium, and Large.
I wasn't aware that S&W fixed the accuracy issues with the 9mm.
I got forwarded a some emails from a Smith rep about the triggers and barrels.
also
http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/06/s-m-barrels.html
New Production Factory Barrel: As best as I can determine, this new style barrel started being phased in earlier this year. It removes the various stress risers ahead of the chamber area, tightens lockup, and brings in a new twist rate. I was not able to get an official answer from any of my points of contact at S&W, but visual comparison of all the barrels has determined that the new barrel has a slower twist rate than the original production units, and more closely resembles the 1:24 twist of the KKM. This new barrel fits almost as tightly as the KKM match barrel. It also delivers performance - it shot a 2.5” 10 shot group at 25 yards off a rest using Atlanta Arms 115gr match ammo. It shot a 3” group with 147gr ammo, also off a rest.
gunrunner505
09-07-12, 21:33
I got forwarded a some emails from a Smith rep about the triggers and barrels.
also
http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/06/s-m-barrels.html
isn't a faster twist rate better for accuracy or not so much? 1:24 seems awful slow...
I got forwarded a some emails from a Smith rep about the triggers and barrels.
also
http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/06/s-m-barrels.html
"It's interesting why they would want to reduce the rate of twist for the new barrel. Wouldn't that de-stablize heavier bullets even more?"
that is a responding comment on the 10-8 blog.....and i was wondering the same thing.
when slowing the twist rate even more (i thought the 1/18.75 was supposed to be pretty slow already, no?) how are they supposed to stabilize the 147gr that are so popular thees days? i am confused please educate me. if 1/18.75 cant stabilize heavy 9mm bullets than how is 1/24 going to help?
brickboy240
09-07-12, 22:06
From what I read around here...the Caracal is accurate, reliable and has a decent trigger and it is 400 bucks.
I know it is new and not proven but right off the bat, it does not seem to have the problems of the M&P or recently made 9mm Glocks.
I have never seen the PPQ for under $550-599 bucks...where is that available?
-brickboy240
From my convo's with S&W, the twist rate in the 9mm barrels has not changed and neither has the design of the hood area. The changes to the barrel (which happened sometime ago) were to fix a problem with the barrels breaking.
C4
saddlerocker
09-07-12, 22:23
Nevermind
GLOCKMASTER
09-08-12, 06:56
were there other issues besides the rust?
Yes there are two othe issues besides rust.
And... Just read a thread on another site where 4 people got tack driving Smiths, and we have heard the triggers have improved. I've handled a few 9mms lately and the triggers are better, and vary from decent to great.
I'd like to love the Walther. But, I'm not a fan of the awfully large slide releases on both sides. I've even read of some who get occasional early slide lock - a reason for me to reject the gun. I know most likely don't have this issue with them, but the only way I would know is to own it and shoot it alot to really know. Didn't know I got Glock bite til I put hundreds of rounds through my own G19. (Thanks, GF).
So, I can buy an M&P and a SL barrel right now for the price of the PPQ, and have lots of support both from SW and aftermarket. Everything I've ever read on SW CS is outstanding to include the time they agreed to send me a shipping label for a gun way out of warranty.
Don't get me wrong, the PPQ feels like a dream in the hand, but I'm a tad hesitant with the controls.
Pretty much any trigger related gripes can be solved with Apex parts. The Apex FFS, for example.
exactly! You can almost count on someone crying:cray: about the trigger when it comes to the M&P. It's getting old! If you dont like it, dont buy it or simply upgrade the trigger.
From what I read around here...the Caracal is accurate, reliable and has a decent trigger and it is 400 bucks.
I know it is new and not proven but right off the bat, it does not seem to have the problems of the M&P or recently made 9mm Glocks.
I have never seen the PPQ for under $550-599 bucks...where is that available?
-brickboy240
you might have to swing by the walther forums and ask around, but I remember alot of folks getting them from a place called Jet guns..supposedly a offshoot of Bud's gunshop, although I can't verify that.. But yes. they were selling NIB PPQ's for around $489
isn't a faster twist rate better for accuracy or not so much? 1:24 seems awful slow...
Im not sure. What's a standard ROT for a 9mm?
And... Just read a thread on another site where 4 people got tack driving Smiths, and we have heard the triggers have improved. I've handled a few 9mms lately and the triggers are better, and vary from decent to great.
I'd like to love the Walther. But, I'm not a fan of the awfully large slide releases on both sides. I've even read of some who get occasional early slide lock - a reason for me to reject the gun. I know most likely don't have this issue with them, but the only way I would know is to own it and shoot it alot to really know. Didn't know I got Glock bite til I put hundreds of rounds through my own G19. (Thanks, GF).
So, I can buy an M&P and a SL barrel right now for the price of the PPQ, and have lots of support both from SW and aftermarket. Everything I've ever read on SW CS is outstanding to include the time they agreed to send me a shipping label for a gun way out of warranty.
Don't get me wrong, the PPQ feels like a dream in the hand, but I'm a tad hesitant with the controls.
You should try the PPQ.. The slide release problem is common..and the fix is simple..just move your thumb..I never had a problem with the slide locking back early,or for that matter any problem with the PPQ..I kinda laugh about the "support" issues, I really haven't read about any parts breaking, so I would'nt worry about it..Walther has been around a long time..They know how to make a decent handgun. And has been pointed out, except for sights, out of the box, it dosen't need anything.
You should try the PPQ.. The slide release problem is common..and the fix is simple..just move your thumb..I never had a problem with the slide locking back early,or for that matter any problem with the PPQ..I kinda laugh about the "support" issues, I really haven't read about any parts breaking, so I would'nt worry about it..Walther has been around a long time..They know how to make a decent handgun. And has been pointed out, except for sights, out of the box, it dosen't need anything.
I agree, the PPQ has great ergonomics and feels good in your hand.
The issues I have with it are expensive magazines, it's a more expensive handgun in general (cheapest I can find locally is $575 and even bud's is asking for $550), and some people complain about the high bore axis and corresponding muzzle flip (not a problem to me). The magazine release can take some getting used to, but to me it's better than HK's design.
I'm still interested to know about the other problems people have with the m&ps. I'd argue that the m&p feels just as good ergonomically as the PPQ (or better due to it's low bore axis and low muzzle flip), the trigger is par for the type of gun it's designed to be, and mine have been accurate, rust free, and dead nuts reliable with over 3 years of shooting, concealed carry, and several thousand rounds fired.
Support is more than parts and problems. There are a plethora of night sights and other accessories to include holsters for the MP. What if after a year I want tru-glows or vtacs? With the mp I just order them.
With the slide release its about the support hand and placement of it instantly, strongly, with and without gloves. I can tell you that proper placement for me puts the side of my support hand thumb along the slide release. If I'm the 1 out of 20 that has a prelock problem, that is a no go, and too much risk for 6 bills to thoroughly try it. I don't like a slide release all that much anyway, and the ppq has two huge ones.
MiamiCracker
09-08-12, 11:55
Support is more than parts and problems. There are a plethora of night sights and other accessories to include holsters for the MP. What if after a year I want tru-glows or vtacs? With the mp I just order them.
With the slide release its about the support hand and placement of it instantly, strongly, with and without gloves. I can tell you that proper placement for me puts the side of my support hand thumb along the slide release. If I'm the 1 out of 20 that has a prelock problem, that is a no go, and too much risk for 6 bills to thoroughly try it. I don't like a slide release all that much anyway, and the ppq has two huge ones.
I find the mag release isn't that long, plus when my support thumb is forward of the main portion of the slide release. It works for me.
I wasn't trying to make this into an M&P vs Brand-X thread. I was replying to this thread, and I used my own preference in pistols only as an example to make a point.
If you absolutely must have the most sight and holster options, then the 1911, Glock, and M&P models are probably your best (and only) options, because no other models of pistols can compete as far as aftermarket support.
As for myself, I found a pistol that wasn't as popular, and didn't have as many aftermarket options available for it. But one that fit me and my needs better than any 1911, Glock, or M&P, with any combination of the aftermarket parts available for them.
With aftermarket options for Glock and M&P pistols that include grip reductions, grip stippling, trigger modifications, etc., I have to wonder if people are purposefully buying pistols that do not fit them. Maybe another model of pistol that doesn't have the same aftermarket support, but fits the user better than a popular model of pistol that does, is a better option. This is only a thought.
With aftermarket options for Glock and M&P pistols that include grip reductions, grip stippling, trigger modifications, etc., I have to wonder if people are purposefully buying pistols that do not fit them. Maybe another model of pistol that doesn't have the same aftermarket support, but fits the user better than a popular model of pistol that does, is a better option. This is only a thought.
Well said - it does make one wonder. It also makes me wonder why Glock did not go WAY further in the Gen 4. A system in which the hump was an OPTION would be great. But... Americans like to customize things into oblivion.
I like the G19 because of the light weight, optimum size, and the Glock simplicity. Detail stripping is a buz. They are very accurate, and in most samples I like the trigger - amazing. I think with their former legendary reliability and 'support', people were willing to make it work in any way they could.
Just found out that the place I thought I could buy cheap from, and 'is' a SW LE dealer, doesn't really keep things in stock. So.. as I wait, the PPQ could get very tempting...
I wasn't trying to make this into an M&P vs Brand-X thread. I was replying to this thread, and I used my own preference in pistols only as an example to make a point.
If you absolutely must have the most sight and holster options, then the 1911, Glock, and M&P models are probably your best (and only) options, because no other models of pistols can compete as far as aftermarket support.
As for myself, I found a pistol that wasn't as popular, and didn't have as many aftermarket options available for it. But one that fit me and my needs better than any 1911, Glock, or M&P, with any combination of the aftermarket parts available for them.
With aftermarket options for Glock and M&P pistols that include grip reductions, grip stippling, trigger modifications, etc., I have to wonder if people are purposefully buying pistols that do not fit them. Maybe another model of pistol that doesn't have the same aftermarket support, but fits the user better than a popular model of pistol that does, is a better option. This is only a thought.
Good points and why i picked up the Caracal C and F. I still may end up with an M&P, but so far i am pleasantly surprised by the Caracal's.
I agree, the PPQ has great ergonomics and feels good in your hand.
The issues I have with it are expensive magazines, it's a more expensive handgun in general (cheapest I can find locally is $575 and even bud's is asking for $550), and some people complain about the high bore axis and corresponding muzzle flip (not a problem to me). The magazine release can take some getting used to, but to me it's better than HK's design.
I'm still interested to know about the other problems people have with the m&ps. I'd argue that the m&p feels just as good ergonomically as the PPQ (or better due to it's low bore axis and low muzzle flip), the trigger is par for the type of gun it's designed to be, and mine have been accurate, rust free, and dead nuts reliable with over 3 years of shooting, concealed carry, and several thousand rounds fired.
I had two M&P's A FS9, and a Midsize .45, I bought the .45 first in about the 2007-8 timeframe, It always was a stellar shooter very,very accurate. I had a Apex FSS installed awhile back and that made it that much better. Earlier this year I had feeding issues with it and my using LSWC's up until then It fed anything in the way of .45 ammo, I eventually traced the problem down to the extractor, and installed one of Apex's extractors, and a new RSA, So far, that seemed to cure it. I'll probably hang on to it, It's a damn good shooter. In about 2009 I bought a FS9..and it took awhile for me to figure out, but it was one with accuracy issues,while I liked the pistol, it was for me, very dissapointing as far as accuracy. What tipped me off was when I bought a HK P-2000 (which I still have) and I notice a huge difference in accuracy at longer ranges..That was a hint. While the HK I have is a LEM gun, I find I do better with a striker fired pistol. (no surprise there) When Grant got some PPQ's in stock, as soon as I got some coins saved up, I bought one, based on the positive reviews I read..It did'nt dissapoint. Earlier this summer I sold the FS9, After putting a Apex DCAEK, RAM, in it over the last couple of years, I wasn't about to put another $200 into a fit barrel, I mean, If I have to rebuild the pistol, then why dosen't S&W just sell the pistol minus the sear, striker block, barrel, sights, and let people finish buliding them with the Apex parts they want? it'd probably be cheaper.Before I'd consider another 9mm M&P, It would have to be proven accurate, and have a better trigger. If Walther can put a good trigger in a PPQ, there's no reason why S&W can't with a M&P. Not long after selling the FS9, I thought I'd give Glock a try and bought a Gen3 G19, and like alot of other folks, I'm having some extraction problems with it, I'm not too worried about it, as Apex will have their extractors out very soon and I'm pretty sure that will fix mine,Compared to some of the pistols that were used for Beta testing, mine is pretty mild. I've had NO failures with it and the accuracy is pretty decent.Providing that cures the problem, I'll keep it. Size wise, I like it a little better that the PPQ as a carry gun,and I don't seem to have too much trouble switching form one to another, and I shoot them both well. I'm not intending to start a S&W vs Walther vs Glock thread bash, But to me, the FS9 left a bad taste in my mouth, The Walther has been great, no complaints there, Glock? well, I consider the extractor issue to be a pain in the ass, But I'm pretty sure the Apex extractor will fix it,and that's alot less a pain in the ass than replacing the barrel....
theblackknight
09-08-12, 15:39
A forum member here helped me track down a 5" Pro while I was oconus. It has a DNF serial prefix. When I got home, the first rounds I put thru it was at the indoor 25y SHO. Keep in mind I handt touched a pistol in 7 months. Targets are here(http://doodieproject.com/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=32) because I erased them on my fone. It it very accurate. It did have a feeding problem but a chamber polish and some bill drills x a couple boxes worth and its good now.I'm happy with it.
Also:this is my production gun.
We have the M&P .357.
Now I'm a little less surprised. Without knowing the nature of your issues, it is hard to determine if your agency might be a little more satisfied with a 9/40 platform M&P. What I can say is that my very brief dance with the 357 Sig in the late 90's was abruptly terminated after I noticed a higher frequency of parts failures. The questionable improved performance over 9mm (even less in 40SW) simply was not worth the extra cost in ammo and maintance.
GLOCKMASTER
09-08-12, 19:33
Now I'm a little less surprised. Without knowing the nature of your issues, it is hard to determine if your agency might be a little more satisfied with a 9/40 platform M&P. What I can say is that my very brief dance with the 357 Sig in the late 90's was abruptly terminated after I noticed a higher frequency of parts failures. The questionable improved performance over 9mm (even less in 40SW) simply was not worth the extra cost in ammo and maintance.
Our problems are not related to parts failures.
Now I'm a little less surprised. Without knowing the nature of your issues, it is hard to determine if your agency might be a little more satisfied with a 9/40 platform M&P. What I can say is that my very brief dance with the 357 Sig in the late 90's was abruptly terminated after I noticed a higher frequency of parts failures. The questionable improved performance over 9mm (even less in 40SW) simply was not worth the extra cost in ammo and maintance.
I think the .357 SIG in the M&P was a mistake and believe that S&W has stopped making this gun (as they just couldn't get it to run well + very few people want it).
C4
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