View Full Version : How many rounds should it take to transition to Glock?
I have been shooting and carrying an M&P9FS almost exclusively for 2 years. I am not a "great" or "experienced" shooter by any means, but I put about 3-4k rounds through that gun and could put a 17 round mag into a baseball at 10 yards at a decent rate of fire. I recently purchased a gen 3 G19 for summer carry and I can't shoot it well at all. Concentrating on a smooth, straight back trigger press, at 10 yards I am pulling about 6" low and left and the groups are about 10". I handed the gun to a fellow at the range (also never shot a Glock before) and he put a nice 10 shot group about an inch above the bullseye. I have put 500 rounds through this pistol so far with no noticeable improvement, and I'm positive that it's 100% shooter error. Needless to say, I'm embarrassed. I would gladly sell the Glock and stick with the gun I know, but I will be going into law enforcement as early at next summer and most of the agencies I am looking at issue G22's. I'd like to familiarize myself with Glock as best I can.
Has anyone else had trouble making the switch? If so, do you have any tips for a new Glock shooter?
When I transitioned from 1911's to Glocks, it took me about 5000-7000 rounds to get dialed in with it. I now shoot it better than I ever shot my 1911's.
Please don't be that guy that cries that it doesn't fit your hand, etc, etc...
It takes work, but if you put the work in you will be rewarded in the long run.
Business_Casual
09-06-12, 14:22
Mix a few snap caps in randomly to see if you are flinching. Low left is a classic flinch. Alternatively, have someone load unload it and hand it to you so when you pull the trigger you'll see the flinch on an empty chamber.
bc
Guns-up.50
09-06-12, 15:31
When I transitioned from 1911's to Glocks, it took me about 5000-7000 rounds to get dialed in with it. I now shoot it better than I ever shot my 1911's.
Please don't be that guy that cries that it doesn't fit your hand, etc, etc...
It takes work, but if you put the work in you will be rewarded in the long run.
Yes this.... I shot 1911s to an m&p(3-4k through m&p) the transition was easier then when I switched back to glocks( almost exclusively) after a few years, but now I shoot glock way better than the 1911 and m&p
close to 5.5k on the glocks now
I don't have much of an issue switching between a 1911 and a Glock, but damn, put an M&P in my hands and it's a whole different story!
I'm about 2k deep into the M&P and getting much more proficient at low percentage shots, but still have a ways to go.
Strangely, I can still pick up the 1911 or the Glock and shoot it like nothing has changed. Probably due to the fact that I shot those two for many many years and they just 'feel' right.
I also carried the M&P9FS for 2-3 years exclusively, and just switched to Glock earlier this year. Honestly, no BS, I was proficient enough with getting a fast sight picture and shooting for speed and accuracy with the Glock to feel good enough for carry after only a few range sessions and drawing/dry fire sessions. Maybe Glock just "points" better for me, or maybe its just me, but I've never bought into the "I can't shoot a Glock because of the grip angle" excuse...I've found that to be pretty much only an internet problem vs. a real world problem.
I will say that until the Gen4 came out, Glock did feel too "blocky" in my hand compared to the M&P. But after carrying and practicing with it, I actually like the feel of my Gen4 G19 SO much better than my M&P. It fits my hand really well, finger grooves and all.
Straight Shooter
09-06-12, 16:24
I went from 1911's to my G21 back in 2005. I dry fired every waking moment for over two weeks. My first range trip, I went alone, and when I knew the range would be empty, so I could concentrate. I shot several hundred rounds that day, over 500 iirc.
My follow up trips I did the same. Didnt take that long to overcome 25 years plus of 1911-ing.
Learn a good grip, practice hard with it, and itll come easy.
QuickStrike
09-06-12, 17:35
Yeah, it's not very natural for me either. I remember buying the HK45ct and shooting it while I was also shooting my g19 (the gun I shoot the most).
The HK was much easier to shoot accurately and even the follow up shots were more satisfactory. Even though it's in .45 and that was my first time shooting it!
Shot a g19 again yesterday and I kept getting postage sized groups at 7 yards, about an 1.5" to the left. At least my trigger suckage is consistent! At 25 yards... o lawd... :o
Then sometimes I would nail the target dead center. Extremely frustrating as I don't have much confidence myself shooting the damn thing or the sights.
I still carry it, but I sure am wary of my own limitations with it. Might just try an AIWB holster for the HK and roll that way...
ICANHITHIMMAN
09-06-12, 17:50
I hated glock for years for no reason other than I didn't know any better. With anything new its just going to take time to adjust and everyone is diffrent. First thing you have to do is stop comparing it and become the glock ;)
Rayrevolver
09-06-12, 17:59
Opposite was true for me when I bought a M&P9Pro. During dry fire I would always watch the front sight twitch.
The only fix was to use a whole lot of trigger finger, where the corner of the trigger was in the first bend of my finger. It was an easy index point. That worked great but meant that if I did't get it right I knew I was throwing shots a little.
Long story short: Try using more or less trigger finger and see if that helps. Dry fire is your friend.
QuickStrike
09-06-12, 18:11
Opposite was true for me when I bought a M&P9Pro. During dry fire I would always watch the front sight twitch.
The only fix was to use a whole lot of trigger finger, where the corner of the trigger was in the first bend of my finger. It was an easy index point. That worked great but meant that if I did't get it right I knew I was throwing shots a little.
Long story short: Try using more or less trigger finger and see if that helps. Dry fire is your friend.
I find that curling my trigger finger so that it doesn't contact the frame as much, has helped. Easier to pull directly to the rear with my tiny hand/s.
I feel your pain, having gone through the exact same thing with 1911's to Glock. Took me about 1500 rounds to realize I had a software, not hardware issue. It was a kick in the nuts. But, I embraced it, went all in and now i'm back to having fun. There's light at the end of the tunnel and I think it's a great lesson along the way.
I find that curling my trigger finger so that it doesn't contact the frame as much, has helped. Easier to pull directly to the rear with my tiny hand/s.
I found this helpfull too.
sierra 223
09-06-12, 18:32
The low left thing with Glocks are common. In fact I just saw Larry Vickers have the same issue on his cable show and he is with out a doubt one of the best shooters out there.
I wish I could figure out how to correct it myself. I dont know if its a more finger on the trigger or less.
Thats the problem, dont ever go from 1911 to Glock :D :nono:
Just joshing. I own a 19 and SF21, they good. My biggest challenge is going from anything to my HK DA/SA. That move is ugly. Ill shoot that damn thing so low, I would be making ball-sack shots. Not good. Im better with my FNP45 than my HK, for what its worth.
Once you adjust to anything, your fine. Its just that pisser of transition. Ive never shot just one gun for a real long time like some of you guys.
The low left thing with Glocks are common. In fact I just saw Larry Vickers have the same issue on his cable show and he is with out a doubt one of the best shooters out there.
I wish I could figure out how to correct it myself. I dont know if its a more finger on the trigger or less.
Assuming hand position is good and you have normal hand size, I would try running your trigger finger up to the first joint and see what that does for your groups. Mix in some dummy rounds to check for flinch.
C4
I remember a good friend of mine with a new G23 (around here they come with plastic adjustable rear sights) correcting and recorrecting for ever his rear sight... :D
There was a time when I was shooting quite often, and transitioning (playing around) from glocks to CZs to 1911s to all kind of revolvers to target 22 pistols to etc. I always had to adjust to the grip and trigger of each gun, and some like the glock took more work than others, both coming from another gun and also I was messed for other guns after adjusting to the glock. Some days it was easier, other times harder. I just tried to "settle" into the guns and after a few mags all magically went to normal, good accuracy and POI = POA.
I'm relieved to hear that it may just take some (a lot of) time and getting used to. The positioning of the finger on the trigger seems the most interesting to me. I have a DCAEK in my M&P, so shooting that with the "pad" of my finger was no problem. While dry firing the Glock, I notice my front sight twitch a little bit with this method. I tried using more of my trigger finger during dry fire, but it just didn't feel like a good technique. I'll give that another try though. Thanks for the tips guys.
Grant, when you say first joint, do you mean the joint closest to the knuckle?
Assuming hand position is good and you have normal hand size, I would try running your trigger finger up to the first joint and see what that does for your groups.
C4
^
This. I made that change early on after struggling with using the "pad" of my trigger finger pushing shots.
I find Glocks are a very perishable skill, but if you dedicate yourself to just Glock, they're capable of some amazing accuracy and consistency.
Low left is a trigger press issue caused by jerking the trigger and is very common for glock shooters. Use the pad of your index finger and press the trigger straight to the rear. Keep your finger straight at the first/top joint of your index finger, I.e. do not hook your finger or use that first joint to apply pressure to the trigger. This will cause more low/left.
Dry fire a lot and use snap caps a few times per range session to catch yourself jerking the trigger.
In my experience as an instructor for a major agency that issues glocks, the 1911 can build pretty bad trigger press habits because you can get away with jerking the trigger with less effect on shot placement due to a short, clean break. Your dcaek trigger on the m&p may be causing the same habits.
Opposite was true for me when I bought a M&P9Pro. During dry fire I would always watch the front sight twitch.
The only fix was to use a whole lot of trigger finger, where the corner of the trigger was in the first bend of my finger. It was an easy index point. That worked great but meant that if I did't get it right I knew I was throwing shots a little.
Long story short: Try using more or less trigger finger and see if that helps. Dry fire is your friend.
Regarding the M&P front sight twitch....Randy at Apex Tactical clarifies this point starting around 2 minutes into the video. I've experienced this in my own M&P9Pro as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHr-IyejH7g
I have been shooting and carrying an M&P9FS almost exclusively for 2 years. I am not a "great" or "experienced" shooter by any means, but I put about 3-4k rounds through that gun and could put a 17 round mag into a baseball at 10 yards at a decent rate of fire. I recently purchased a gen 3 G19 for summer carry and I can't shoot it well at all. Concentrating on a smooth, straight back trigger press, at 10 yards I am pulling about 6" low and left and the groups are about 10". I handed the gun to a fellow at the range (also never shot a Glock before) and he put a nice 10 shot group about an inch above the bullseye. I have put 500 rounds through this pistol so far with no noticeable improvement, and I'm positive that it's 100% shooter error. Needless to say, I'm embarrassed. I would gladly sell the Glock and stick with the gun I know, but I will be going into law enforcement as early at next summer and most of the agencies I am looking at issue G22's. I'd like to familiarize myself with Glock as best I can.
Has anyone else had trouble making the switch? If so, do you have any tips for a new Glock shooter?
You're flinching, not at all uncommon. Get some serious instruction from a competent professional, and count on putting at least several thousand rounds through your Glock. Also, dry firing is extremely beneficial to mastering the Glock trigger...
^
This. I made that change early on after struggling with using the "pad" of my trigger finger pushing shots.
I find Glocks are a very perishable skill, but if you dedicate yourself to just Glock, they're capable of some amazing accuracy and consistency.
I have seen it fix many shooters problems with the gun, but not all (as it really depends on hand size).
At the end of the day, the goal is to always manipulate the trigger straight to the rear (feels flat).
C4
Rayrevolver
09-07-12, 12:48
Regarding the M&P front sight twitch....Randy at Apex Tactical clarifies this point starting around 2 minutes into the video. I've experienced this in my own M&P9Pro as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHr-IyejH7g
Thanks for the video. I learned something!
I ran 4300 rounds through the Pro (which I bought from G&R, thanks Grant!) and the twitch was always there if I didn't index my finger right.
I don't blame the gun, if I did my part it was a tack driver that I could shoot fast-ish. Throw in a draw, reloads, and the long shots of the IDPA classifier and my scores suffered.
I traded for a G34 but maybe down the road I will get another M&P Pro. I'm still a fan.
I played with my guns and found the same.
Is this twitch the same with other striker fired guns or unique to S & W?
Did it with Pro's , did not with Apex models
My M&P 45 took 1000 rounds before I stopped yanking the front sight off to the left. It was humbling to try to make that gun shoot good... but it forced me to focus on all the fundamentals.
I'm FAR from a great shooter, but I found when I switched to the G19, tons of dry firing made a big difference. For the pistol's sake, use snap caps though. I dry fired my used Gen2 G19 enough that I broke the breach area by not using snap caps.
Ironically, I picked up an M&P a while back. I'm still going through my dry fire regimen to get a trigger break where the gun stays still.
As others have said, dry-fire is key. Also, more trigger finger. Focus on the front sight, try to allow the break to be a surprise. It helps if you squeeze the trigger very very slowly, this will help make the break a surprise and you will be less likely to flinch.
Check out glocktalk.com, there are lots of threads there on this very common subject that will be a HUGE help!
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