View Full Version : My SHTF carbine is finally complete
Well I went through all my accumulated parts and modded my first AR into what is my SHTF rifle. If I had to grab one out of the safe and a mag pouch and run for it- this is it.
Started as a complete Rock River Arms CAR-15 from the 2003 era.
-Daniel Defense lightweight profile 16" barrel with mid length gas system, AAC 51T Breakout on muzzle
-Daniel Defense 10" lite rail
-VTOR gas block
-Hogue overmolded grip
-Magpul CTR stock
-TLR-1 weapon light
-Troy Ind folding backup sights
-Leupold compact 2-7x32 scope (no batteries required)
-Rail mounted QD for 2 point sling
-4 mags in mag pouch, 1 ready for gun gives me 150 rounds to go.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h76/zimm17/Guns/5B5CE972-8696-4C61-AF9E-31EA874254FC-800-000001039DCF58AD.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h76/zimm17/Guns/E30053BC-B517-4544-8282-C2FCCBBEE0FC-800-00000103A7D65553.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h76/zimm17/Guns/C89EF5DD-4126-430B-A605-14474480D7CF-800-00000103898719FD.jpg
very nice rifle!i`d rock that !
Thanks. The light barrel made the biggest difference in weight. I'm at 7 lbs 12 ounces as it sits minus bipod.
I have some sexier stuff like 300 blackouts and .50 Beowulf, but go rifle needs to be simple and in .223.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h76/zimm17/Guns/3f505d94eadd542bbcbbcbbc8001afa0.jpg
Redbeardsong
09-06-12, 20:26
Nice build! Why have the sights on there, when the scope makes them unusable?
Nice build! Why have the sights on there, when the scope makes them unusable?
They're back up sights. If the scope breaks (dropping rifle, etc), the rings are quick release. Flip the levers, remove scope, flip up the sights and rifle is still useable.
They're back up sights. If the scope breaks (dropping rifle, etc), the rings are quick release. Flip the levers, remove scope, flip up the sights and rifle is still useable.
Have you thought about getting these sights? (http://www.surefire.com/tactical-equipment/rapid-transition-sights.html)
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l155/davidnguyen1151/Guns/4fb97537.jpg
I think they add to much bulk to the rifle. I doubt I'll need to drop the scope in a firefight. Just if it breaks while away from home, I can dump scope and still aim.
You've got to watch out with those light barrels -they get hot very quick. They are not user friendly for high volumes of fire.
You've got to watch out with those light barrels -they get hot very quick. They are not user friendly for high volumes of fire.
Good point. This isn't my range gun anymore. I'm getting a varminter for that, or play with the 300 blackout.
You've got to watch out with those light barrels -they get hot very quick. They are not user friendly for high volumes of fire.
Would you mind quantifying this statement a bit please?
OP, that rifle looks good. I've got a pretty similar setup going on for my outside go-to rifle. I really considered a Leupold 2-7, but got a really good deal on this MR/T w/Larue mount:
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/IMG_9869.jpg
You've got to watch out with those light barrels -they get hot very quick. They are not user friendly for high volumes of fire.
I second that. I learned the hard way at a class with my DD Vickers rifle. A glove is necessary.
I ran the above rifle in a Vickers class (without the scope) and had no issues. How fast are you guys shooting and with what grip/handguard are you having such heat issues?
fallenromeo
09-07-12, 10:28
Nice rifle. For a SHTF rifle, I usually expect to see a red dot. But you go with what works for you. How does it shoot?
What kind of shtf scenario are you planning on using the bipod for? It seems like a lot of weight up front for limited use. Especially if you are running 30 round mags. Or is it tall enough to utilize with longer mags? From the pictures it doesn't look like it would be.
The bipod was just to take the photo! I don't leave it on there. I use it at the range with a 20 round pmag for paper punching.
It shoots great, no missfeeds yet. I've had the rifle for about 10 years, although the barrel is brand new (60 rounds through it).
As for the scope, I just had it laying around. It's not "tactical", and the gloss doesn't match the rifle. I bought it long ago for my .30-30 lever action. I like the wide FOV at 2x magnification and no red dot to worry about batteries on. And it can be cranked up to 7x for long shots.
I'm not worried about using it for indoor/close quarters- I'd have a .40 in a holster and my 870 as well. This is the hold-off-the-looters from the house, or throw it in the truck with the family if it became time to take off.
Well I took it the range today to verify it works after swapping the skinny barrel back in. Had 1 fail to feed out of 100 rounds. It was the second round of a new mag- the bolt rode over the round and bent the case. It cleared. That was my first misfeed that I remember with this rifle.
I shot all those in 30 mins and it sure did get hot. The CLP on the outside of the barrel burned off in a nice stream of smoke. The hand guard got too hot to handle after 60 rounds, had to hold the magwell to get the last two mags shot up.
I had to use gloves to clean it when I got home it was still too hot.
Now she's all cleaned up and ready to go!
Good point. This isn't my range gun anymore. I'm getting a varminter for that, or play with the 300 blackout.
It's your SHTF carbine, right? If the shit hit the fan it's likely there will be a time a guy would have to lay down a lot effing rounds in rapid succession. Its something to consider.
If that happens, it'll get hot. No big deal. Not worth lugging 1/2 pound more barrel. It didn't melt, just got hot enough to smoke some CLP oil off the outside.
If that happens, it'll get hot. No big deal. Not worth lugging 1/2 pound more barrel. It didn't melt, just got hot enough to smoke some CLP oil off the outside.
Yeah, my cousin said the same thing about his skinny. I ran him through a standard night fire drill I do. After three mags at what you would consider a sustained rate of fire his handgaurds were too hot to handle.
I ran the same drill with my Noveske and had no heat issue.
Three mags is nothing.
But hey, It's your hands. I imagine after running it hard a few times you will change your mind about skinny barrels for a serious situation rifle. :)
Sent from my android
MountainRaven
09-07-12, 21:24
Just about every military on earth uses skinny barrels on their 'serious situation' carbines. These are guns that have selector switches that include the option for full-auto and are intended, in emergencies, to serve as ersatz light machine guns.
Of the 'serious' alternatives to the AR-15 FOW for American civil defense, nearly all of them use light barrels: The M14/M1A, M1 Garand and Carbine, almost all Kalashnikovs, both SCAR 16s and -17s, the FAL, HK91, and virtually every non-precision application 7.62 AR in production (LaRue, KAC, &c.). These are used without complaint in regards to their barrel contours in military contexts around the globe and their semi-auto brethren here in the states are utilized in training courses under a variety of instructors and almost no one ever complains about the barrel weights on these weapon systems.
If you are in a situation where you have to dump 90+ rounds of ammunition in such a hurry that your handguard heats up enough to not hold onto, you have more serious issues to worry about. Like the reason(s) you're dumping three-plus magazines in a hurry.
In any sort of situation where you're going to need to use the firearm, you're probably going to have to carry it a lot more than you're going to need to shoot it. So it makes sense to trim as much excess weight from the gun as possible. This is why hunters typically do not use 15+ pound bolt guns for deer and elk or skeet guns for little birds. And why nearly every self-loading, general issue combat rifle and carbine of the last half-century has had a lightweight barrel.
If you have a specific need for a heavy barrel, whether it is precision or for use as a machine gun, by all means... otherwise, the light barrel will work just fine for 99.99% of what you're ever going to have to do, including zombie hordes and communist Chinese occupation.
The military using a particular peice of kit is never a valid reason to follow suit. The contrary is more likely to be the better option.
Failure2Stop
09-07-12, 22:59
The military using a particular peice of kit is never a valid reason to follow suit. The contrary is more likely to be the better option.
Still, the SOCOM profile M4A1 barrel is pretty thick under the handguard.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
MountainRaven
09-07-12, 23:46
The military using a particular peice of kit is never a valid reason to follow suit. The contrary is more likely to be the better option.
That is true to a point. Is there a problem with AAC suppressors that I wasn't aware of? SureFire suppressors and weapon lights? Glocks, H&Ks, and German SiGs? FN, Colt, and H&K carbines? Aimpoints? ACOGs? NightForce and Schmidt & Bender optics? Daniel Defense and KAC rail systems? All of these are widely used by military and law enforcement end users across the globe. Are they not the standards by which all other devices in their respective categories are judged?
That is not to say that we cannot do better than what the military uses, by any means. Merely saying that because 'the military' uses something, it ought to be avoided is rather silly. Especially when the reasoning behind the choice is sound, as it is (IMHO) with a 'pencil' or lightweight barrel.
Manta rails seem to be pretty good at handling heat. I just ordered a set of their new vlp very low profile ladders. Will update when I test...
I hope you will not mind some input. That scope is waaaaay to far back. It has nearly 3 inches of eye relief, and it is sticking back behind the charging handle by a half inch or so. Normally your nose should be within touching distance of the charging handle, with the scope about 2 3/4 in front of that. Although I am only 5'10 I would have to crane my head way back to use that scope. FYI.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h76/zimm17/Guns/5B5CE972-8696-4C61-AF9E-31EA874254FC-800-000001039DCF58AD.jpg
]
The military using a particular peice of kit is never a valid reason to follow suit. The contrary is more likely to be the better option.
That seems to be an overbroad statement as it seems to mean that we need to select completely different equipment than the military. Lots of the .mil stuff is very good or great.
So, since .mil uses Aimpoints and Eotechs and ACOGs, we need to find a different optic.
Since .mil uses Colts, we should stay away from that brand.
etc.
See the problem?
That seems to be an overbroad statement as it seems to mean that we need to select completely different equipment than the military. Lots of the .mil stuff is very good or great.
So, since .mil uses Aimpoints and Eotechs and ACOGs, we need to find a different optic.
Since .mil uses Colts, we should stay away from that brand.
etc.
See the problem?
I see no problem. The majority of military issued kit is crap. Lowest effing bidder. Eye pro, gloves, various pieces of cold weather gear (except the fart sack), bla bla bla. I could name a hundred examples if I went down a TA50 list from my last deployment. EOtechs are crap compared to aimpoints. Standard charging handles are crap compared to the gunfighter. The issued BUIS? Crap. The elevation knob gets caught on crap and is never left where you want it.
Military issued kit does not mean it is good.
It means someone won a contract because someone is in bed with someone else who owns a company or someone just got lucky because they cut enough corners to be able to make the lowest bid.
hotrodder636
09-08-12, 08:20
I hope you will not mind some input. That scope is waaaaay to far back. It has nearly 3 inches of eye relief, and it is sticking back behind the charging handle by a half inch or so. Normally your nose should be within touching distance of the charging handle, with the scope about 2 3/4 in front of that. Although I am only 5'10 I would have to crane my head way back to use that scope. FYI.
Glad to see someone approached this. I thought the same thing. Granted I don't run a scope but still....
Bluedreaux
09-08-12, 15:00
Three mags is nothing.
BS. It's 90 rounds. In what possible defensive scenario would you be firing 90 rounds of sustained fire and be worried about your hand getting hot?
BS. It's 90 rounds. In what possible defensive scenario would you be firing 90 rounds of sustained fire and be worried about your hand getting hot?
Use your imagination.
90 is nothing.
I hope you will not mind some input. That scope is waaaaay to far back. It has nearly 3 inches of eye relief, and it is sticking back behind the charging handle by a half inch or so. Normally your nose should be within touching distance of the charging handle, with the scope about 2 3/4 in front of that. Although I am only 5'10 I would have to crane my head way back to use that scope. FYI.
That's a great point. I'll look into that. I do seem to remember having my head pretty far back on the stock. It's so hard to set up optics and keep the 3bucc brass catcher block on the rail. I'll go pull it from the safe and see how that scope is.
Here's where I have my 50 Beowulf scope sitting and that's a slug scope with 5" eye relief
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h76/zimm17/Guns/IMG_2084.jpg
Bluedreaux
09-08-12, 16:34
Use your imagination.
90 is nothing.
That's what I thought. Any time you're wanting to come back to reality, we'll be here waiting.
That's what I thought. Any time you're wanting to come back to reality, we'll be here waiting.
SHTF can take many forms. I don't need to spell them out for you.
In the mean time, feel free to add something of substance to the discussion other than flippant and trollish remarks. Otherwise, piss off.
MountainRaven
09-08-12, 17:59
EOtechs are crap compared to aimpoints. Standard charging handles are crap compared to the gunfighter. The issued BUIS? Crap. The elevation knob gets caught on crap and is never left where you want it.
And yet if someone was asking about, lets say,
A Colt 6920 with Matech BUIS, a stock charging handle, an EoTech, and a VCAS sling... all of these being military-issue kit, the only thing you'd likely hear on these forums would be: Where's the weapon light? I mean, aside from the AimPoint crowd possibly raising issue with the optic. But the AimPoint is also military-issue kit, so there is that....
A lot of military issue kit is crap, yes. But a lot of it is very good and some of it is even class-leading (like, for instance, the AimPoint CompM4 and Micro T-1).
Use your imagination.
90 is nothing.
Maybe I just have a crummy imagination, but the sorts of situations I imagine dumping ninety rounds in a hurry in are followed by me standing on a ridge top, rifle overhead, yelling, "Wolverines!"
;)
Bluedreaux
09-08-12, 18:22
In the mean time, feel free to add something of substance to the discussion other than flippant and trollish remarks. Otherwise, piss off.
Something of substance. Such as "Watch out, your hand will get hot in a 90 round gun fight"?
I concede defeat. Pissing off initiated.
Well aside from the banter, my scopes ARE too far back. Dang, need a new mount. Rings won't let the bell clear the troy rear sight. Looks like another larue order.
Can we please keep this on track?
Skinny barrels heat up more quickly, but they also cool down more quickly, so there is a trade off. The rail also has a lot to do with the temperature. More material takes longer to heat up, but also takes longer to cool down.
I believe the DD lite rail has a fair amount of material and probably takes a little longer to heat up. But because you are using a skinny barrel the rail will receive heat more quickly than it would if the barrel were heavier.
So the length of the rail is also a factor. It is just like a heat sink on an electrical device. The bigger the heatsink the more the heat is distributed and the more surface there is to transfer the heat into the air.
I personally like the idea of using a thin lightweight tube type handguard like a Noveske NSR in a longer length (13.5"). with a thin barrel.
Yes, the handguard would heat up quickly, but it would also cool quickly. AND the rifle would be light. Simply put some Noveske handguard panels on and BOOM you got a pretty good setup. Wear gloves anyway.
If you are worried about shooting 180 rounds of sustained fire, which seems high to me, get a gas piston rifle like a SCAR.
Skinny barrels heat up more quickly, but they also cool down more quickly, so there is a trade off. The rail also has a lot to do with the temperature. More material takes longer to heat up, but also takes longer to cool down.
I believe the DD lite rail has a fair amount of material and probably takes a little longer to heat up. But because you are using a skinny barrel the rail will receive heat more quickly than it would if the barrel were heavier.
So the length of the rail is also a factor. It is just like a heat sink on an electrical device. The bigger the heatsink the more the heat is distributed and the more surface there is to transfer the heat into the air.
I personally like the idea of using a thin lightweight tube type handguard like a Noveske NSR in a longer length (13.5"). with a thin barrel.
Yes, the handguard would heat up quickly, but it would also cool quickly. AND the rifle would be light. Simply put some Noveske handguard panels on and BOOM you got a pretty good setup. Wear gloves anyway.
If you are worried about shooting 180 rounds of sustained fire, which seems high to me, get a gas piston rifle like a SCAR.
Good points, but the NSR is only about 1oz lighter than the DD lite.
Still, the SOCOM profile M4A1 barrel is pretty thick under the handguard.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
Yeah, I was speaking in general terms. I know not how exactly a skinny compares to a g-profile.
So you're trying to say a LW profile barrel should not be used on a "serious use" or duty rifle? I think the majority of this forum begs to differ. If you're shooting semi then LW is the way to go. I've put hundreds of rounds through mine in rapid fire and never had a problem with accuracy or my hand guards getting too hot.. and I usually don't even wear gloves... Sure it heats up a bit faster, but it also cools of significantly faster. Either way will serve you well, but it's just ridiculous to try and say that a LW profile is not for "serious use". I mean... really... seriously?? c'mon.....
Good points, but the NSR is only about 1oz lighter than the DD lite.
Incorrect. http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/charts/free-float-rails
10" DD 12.5oz - 11" NSR 10oz = 2.5oz = 20% lighter.
12" DD 15.3oz - 13.5" NSR 11.1oz = 4.2oz = 27.4% lighter
Not to mention the comparative NSR's are longer... Just saying. :)
Incorrect. http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/charts/free-float-rails
10" DD 12.5oz - 11" NSR 10oz = 2.5oz = 20% lighter.
12" DD 15.3oz - 13.5" NSR 11.1oz = 4.2oz = 27.4% lighter
Not to mention the comparative NSR's are longer... Just saying. :)
I was referring to the DD 11 vs NSR 13.5. 1.4oz.
So you're trying to say a LW profile barrel should not be used on a "serious use" or duty rifle?
I would never choose a skinny/pencil barrel for a serious use rifle. Think outside the range to real life situations. Pencil barrels can't handle the heat of sustained rates of fire nearly as well as a standard barrel. More importantly, pencil barrels will not resist being damaged (bent) from real world abuse nearly as well as a g-profile or other thicker barrel. Heck, I've seen guys bend g-profile barrels just in normal maneuvers (shit happens), so why the heck would I want a weaker barrel?
Not all the parts are my cup of tea, but good job on the build. It fits your criteria and shoots well. Weight is in the right area and it should be managable under recoil.
Thats all we can ask for right. As long as your comfortable, we are all comfortable.
I haven't seen the brass catcher before, do you have a pic of it installed?
http://www.3bucc.com/feature.htm
Brownells sells em. Nice quality.
Tried to move scope, won't fit. Waiting on larue mount.
KrampusArms
09-11-12, 01:46
I would never choose a skinny/pencil barrel for a serious use rifle. Think outside the range to real life situations. Pencil barrels can't handle the heat of sustained rates of fire nearly as well as a standard barrel. More importantly, pencil barrels will not resist being damaged (bent) from real world abuse nearly as well as a g-profile or other thicker barrel. Heck, I've seen guys bend g-profile barrels just in normal maneuvers (shit happens), so why the heck would I want a weaker barrel?
Can you describe what transpired when you witnessed the government profile barrel sustain damage? Just curious. Did the guy fall on his rifle or drop it a certain way?
OP I like your build. Do you still have a commercial receiver extension on that lower though?
OP I like your build. Do you still have a commercial receiver extension on that lower though?
How can you tell? But yes, RRA uses Commercial sized buffer tubes, so I left it.
I would never choose a skinny/pencil barrel for a serious use rifle. Think outside the range to real life situations. Pencil barrels can't handle the heat of sustained rates of fire nearly as well as a standard barrel. More importantly, pencil barrels will not resist being damaged (bent) from real world abuse nearly as well as a g-profile or other thicker barrel.
LW Barrels are great for hunting or a situation where only a few rounds are going to be fired. Anything past a magazine, opt for a thicker barrel for several reasons: Heat build-up, Strength, ability to withstand abuse (one of the main reasons for going to a thicker barrel in Viet Nam was troops using their rifles to open up cases of ammo/C-rats by twisting the metal bands and bending the barrels. Not right, but it happens).
I'm a big fan of the lightweight barrels, and I'm not the only person who feels that way.
All of the guys I know that have done special things in special places prefer less weight to more.
Just because Joe can go full retard and bend his gun doesn't make a heavy barrel a really good idea. At some point these sorts of things are going to result in the barrel being bent at the upper (not steel it is, thus easier to deform than the barrel), or between the receiver extension (aka buffer tube) and the lower.
I've shot M16a1s to the point that the gas tube is glowing, never had an issue with the barrel failing at that point.
Can you describe what transpired when you witnessed the government profile barrel sustain damage? Just curious. Did the guy fall on his rifle or drop it a certain way?
Guy took a digger dd'ing over uneven ground moving with weapon pointed at the deck.
Just because Joe can go full retard and bend his gun doesn't make a heavy barrel a really good idea.
Don't confuse a heavy barrel with a standard profile. There is as clear a difference between a heavy barrel and a standard barrel as there is between a standard barrel and a pencil/skinny/lightweight.
zimm17,
I like your build.
Out of curiosity, why did you choose the brakeout over the blackout or straight muzzle break? I'm still using an A2 on my SHTF gun but I have been considering other muzzle devices and I would like to hear your rationale.
Otherwise, great job, I really like the scope choice.
zimm17,
I like your build.
Out of curiosity, why did you choose the brakeout over the blackout or straight muzzle break? I'm still using an A2 on my SHTF gun but I have been considering other muzzle devices and I would like to hear your rationale.
Otherwise, great job, I really like the scope choice.
I just didn't want to deal with "ping" issue I read about with the flash hider. The break I didn't think I need with a .223. The breakout has a little of both and it was cheaper. I'm going with the break for my 300 blackout build though.
LW Barrels are great for hunting or a situation where only a few rounds are going to be fired. Anything past a magazine, opt for a thicker barrel for several reasons: Heat build-up, Strength, ability to withstand abuse (one of the main reasons for going to a thicker barrel in Viet Nam was troops using their rifles to open up cases of ammo/C-rats by twisting the metal bands and bending the barrels. Not right, but it happens).
Per Dave Lutz they discovered after the spec was set in stone that the A1 barrels had burrs at the gas port and that was the cause of the issue.
I'm placing accuracy higher on my list than I used to but using my lightweight barrels in classes I never saw a problem.
Larue mount finally came in. Going to sight it in today.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h76/zimm17/Guns/AFCCC749-903A-4334-9486-CEA0D6265F89-5133-000002009A1550A0.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h76/zimm17/Guns/1596E78F-AE0E-49BD-B0AF-876770FA4EF2-5133-0000020092AABC30.jpg
Oneupsuperdog
09-29-12, 17:01
Really nice rifle. I love the way the ars look with scopes on them. I plan on setting mine up with scope as well.
Obviously you guys don't really own or have much experience with LW profile barrels. Seriously. A magazine is all it's good for? I will blow through 5-6 mags with my BCM BFH 16" LW Middy in a matter of a couple minutes and have never had a problem with accuracy or otherwise. Go take a carbine class and you'll see the majority of people now days are running LW profiles. Stop talking out of your ass.
edit: I also do not baby my carbine whatsoever and it's been banged around plenty, fallen onto, tripped over, blah blah ,you name it. It's never bent. If anything for a "serious use" or "real world situation" rifle/carbine then I would actually prefer a LW profile. I don't plan on opening any metal drums with it, regardless of barrel profile. Where do some of you guys come up with this shit??
Obviously you guys don't really own or have much experience with LW profile barrels. Seriously. A magazine is all it's good for? I will blow through 5-6 mags with my BCM BFH 16" LW Middy in a matter of a couple minutes and have never had a problem with accuracy or otherwise. Go take a carbine class and you'll see the majority of people now days are running LW profiles. Stop talking out of your ass.
edit: I also do not baby my carbine whatsoever and it's been banged around plenty, fallen onto, tripped over, blah blah ,you name it. It's never bent. If anything for a "serious use" or "real world situation" rifle/carbine then I would actually prefer a LW profile. I don't plan on opening any metal drums with it, regardless of barrel profile. Where do some of you guys come up with this shit??
Wow, that was uncalled for.
It is completely possible to express a differing opinion without attempting to belittle people whom you know NOTHING about and making yourself look like a blow-hard. I suggest you take a class in civility or go back to arfcom.
Can't we all just get along? (especially in my thread?)
I like the LW barrel because this rifle is made for "SHTF" where I envision having it with me, or in the vehicle, or camp, or at home protecting from looters, etc. If I was going to build it for high volume fire I would have gone a different route.
I like the LW barrel because this rifle is made for "SHTF" where I envision having it with me, or in the vehicle, or camp, or at home protecting from looters, etc. If I was going to build it for high volume fire I would have gone a different route.
For the scenario you envision it makes sense....but one guy's SHTF scenario is likely not the next guy's scenario.
For the scenario you envision it makes sense....but one guy's SHTF scenario is likely not the next guy's scenario.
True. I don't see myself running through town engaging zombies or mobs of people. More like hiding behind cover with the family. If I had to lay down enough fire to get the barrel hot- I got bigger problems than a burned hand!
True. I don't see myself running through town engaging zombies or mobs of people. More like hiding behind cover with the family. If I had to lay down enough fire to get the barrel hot- I got bigger problems than a burned hand!
For sure. The rifle I will grab is my 10.5 -it's the best of both worlds. It's short and light yet still has a strong standard profile Noveske barrel.
I've got a DD, 2 BCM's and a Centurion build all with lightweight barrels. With a few of these they've been to multiple EAG, Trident Concepts, and various law enforcement tactical schools as well as being carried for many years for both patrol and SWAT. I very seldom wear gloves and some of these classes exceed 2,000 rounds and 2-3 days. I can count the times on one hand that the hand guard got too hot, even with Troy tubes on 2 of them.
To state that they are not up to task is in error on almost every point. We are all entitled to our opinion and to state it, as this is the net. But to state your opinion based on flawed evidence as fact is disingenuous. There's nothing wrong with preferring something else but that doesn't make it factual.
OP, I like you build and have one somewhat similar.
To state that they are not up to task is in error on almost every point. We are all entitled to our opinion and to state it, as this is the net. But to state your opinion based on flawed evidence as fact is disingenuous.
If anacdotal evidence is flawed for this purpose, then your evidence is flawed as well.
That said, I disagree with you. Pencil barrels are inferior to normal weight barrels when it comes to dumping rounds down range in rapid succession. It is not a coincidence that light and heavy machine guns have heavy barrels. More mass equals more ability to soak up and spread heat along with a greater surface area to dissipate the heat. It also follows that more mass offers more rigidity and a decreased likelihood of damage/bending under any condition - which can easily happen on the two way range.
Luckystiff
09-30-12, 19:16
OP – Great setup and use of existing kit. I have a gun set up with extras I had laying around as well. Mine just did not turn out as nice as yours.
You know, I just do not remember hearing about M16 barrels or hand guards melting during Viet Nam or afterward. The original AR-15 designed by Mr. Stoner at the original Armalight had a barrel thinner in profile than that of the original M16. The standard profile for this weapon platform is the M16A1 “pencil” barrel. Under the hand guards on an M16A2, it’s still the standard M16A1 profile. Same for the M4 and the “Gov.” profile barrels. I do not remember anyone screaming that the hand guards were crazy hot with the M16A1 or A2? The only platform that has any heat dissipation upgrade was the M4 with the double heat shields. For anything you’re going to be carrying while running for your life, weight is a factor.
As far as barrels bending during use, I have seen M16A1 barrels bend after a hard landing on top of them at just the right angles during jump training and shotguns for other various reasons. Everything will break at some point for some reason. In 1991 I examined a S&W 686 that failed during a Law Enforcement shooting. The officer got one round off and then the gun bound up and would not function. No free rides, every advantage has a disadvantage. You have to work out what works for you, and yes your experience is yours and not the gospel. But when your opinion is in the minority you just might be wrong.
I've got a DD, 2 BCM's and a Centurion build all with lightweight barrels. With a few of these they've been to multiple EAG, Trident Concepts, and various law enforcement tactical schools as well as being carried for many years for both patrol and SWAT. I very seldom wear gloves and some of these classes exceed 2,000 rounds and 2-3 days. I can count the times on one hand that the hand guard got too hot, even with Troy tubes on 2 of them.
To state that they are not up to task is in error on almost every point. We are all entitled to our opinion and to state it, as this is the net. But to state your opinion based on flawed evidence as fact is disingenuous. There's nothing wrong with preferring something else but that doesn't make it factual.
OP, I like you build and have one somewhat similar.
Thanks Chief! (I'm a SH-60B bubba myself)...
High Tower
09-30-12, 21:26
Nice build!
I have a lightweight barrel sitting around for a similar project...at some point in time. But it would be for the same purpose. I like the idea of having at least one lightweight carbine around.
And if I recall correctly, Vickers' signature DD rifle came with a pencil barrel.
That said, I disagree with you. Pencil barrels are inferior to normal weight barrels when it comes to dumping rounds down range in rapid succession.
If your pumping them downrange in SA then, not really. I have a LW Centurion barrel with Troy TRX and have pumped plenty rounds in volume down range in quick succession. No issues. Have never met anyone else with a LW barrel in any class who had issues, including dumping large amounts downrange quickly using SA.
If you have a FA then you may have a point.
It is not a coincidence that light and heavy machine guns have heavy barrels. More mass equals more ability to soak up and spread heat along with a greater surface area to dissipate the heat.
See above.
It also follows that more mass offers more rigidity and a decreased likelihood of damage/bending under any condition - which can easily happen on the two way range.
Most LW barrels are plenty rigid enough for normal events. Any event that would bend my LW would probably bend your standard weight or at least damage the gun / upper receiver interface.
The fact is, based on many many peoples' experience, using SA fire, there really is not a lot of disadvantage to the LW barrel. But plenty of advantages like lesser weight.
-
snakedoc257
09-30-12, 22:06
Not nearly as nice, or high end as some of the sticks on this site, but this is probably the one within the shortest reach at all times. This was my first AR and I have had it for years. It hasn't let me down yet. It goes with me just about every where.
It's a little outdated, with the exception of the Troy battle rail I just added.https://mail.google.com/mail/ca/u/0/?ui=2&ik=e88446df51&view=att&th=13a19e4382d42b2c&attid=0.1&disp=thd&realattid=1414585711773282155-1&zw
Not nearly as nice, or high end as some of the sticks on this site, but this is probably the one within the shortest reach at all times. This was my first AR and I have had it for years. It hasn't let me down yet. It goes with me just about every where.
It's a little outdated, with the exception of the Troy battle rail I just added.https://mail.google.com/mail/ca/u/0/?ui=2&ik=e88446df51&view=att&th=13a19e4382d42b2c&attid=0.1&disp=thd&realattid=1414585711773282155-1&zw
I'm not seeing the pic....
If your pumping them downrange in SA then, not really.
Eh....a guy can put a massive amount of rounds down range in short order on semi auto. FAA is not required to put the heat on a barrel.
Most LW barrels are plenty rigid enough for normal events.
-
Agreed. But getting shot at isn't a normal event.
Eh....a guy can put a massive amount of rounds down range in short order on semi auto. FAA is not required to put the heat on a barrel.
But not the same rate as a FA and the LW barrel can handle it. I have put a massive amount down range when playing around and my LW handled it.
Agreed. But getting shot at isn't a normal event.
Nothing that a LW barrel can't handle that anyone on this forum, unless they are SOF, will ever have a chance of running up against with a SA gun.
---
But not the same rate as a FA and the LW barrel can handle it. I have put a massive amount down range when playing around and my LW handled it.
Nothing that a LW barrel can't handle that anyone on this forum, unless they are SOF, will ever have a chance of running up against with a SA gun.
---
Well then we will have to agree to disagree on both points.
ruedger455@yahoo.com
10-04-12, 16:11
You should definetly look into getting an aimpoint for that.
onefastz33
10-04-12, 18:40
You should definitely get a heavier barrel...
Naw just kidding, great looking rifle! I just finished a build with the PSA/FN 16" middy LW barrel and I love it! For the record no heat problems
Eh....a guy can put a massive amount of rounds down range in short order on semi auto. FAA is not required to put the heat on a barrel.
Agreed. But getting shot at isn't a normal event.
Anything that will bend the LW profile in a situation like that is also going to damage a standard profile barrel, or the receiver. LW profile barrels are still tough as nails. I've seen them take huge beatings without being canted and I've put mine through some harsh shit and never missed a beat. It's very obvious you're not speaking from experience - you're just stating what you believe or have been told, and it's not true. You have been misinformed. Please, stop speculating. You can talk to any experienced instructor, etc and they will tell you the same thing.
I've put many of hundreds of rounds through my LW barrel in rapid fire and have never had an accuracy issue at all, either. You're making it sound like a LW barrel is delicate, and it's not. I'd like to know what you think will bend the barrel in a self defense situation or on the "two way range" because bumps, jumps, and dives definitely do not compromise the barrel any more than it would a standard profile.
Wow, that was uncalled for.
It is completely possible to express a differing opinion without attempting to belittle people whom you know NOTHING about and making yourself look like a blow-hard. I suggest you take a class in civility or go back to arfcom.
I've never posted on that site and do not read it either. Nice try, though. Sorry if you feel it's a little harsh but it's not about opinions -- it's about facts.
If we're talking about burning through mag after mag, how many mags are ya'll planning on carrying? This is ridiculous.
If we're talking about burning through mag after mag, how many mags are ya'll planning on carrying? This is ridiculous.
I agree and it appears that 99% of the members of this forum do as well. There are many who prefer the standard weight barrels for various reasons and that is why they make both. I own both as well. The issue is throwing out some web based opinion as fact that quite frankly is'nt fact, or even the real advantages in a standard weight barrel. I own an SBR lower and am issued a F/A as well. If a true SHTF situation arises, whatever that is they would both sit wherever they are as I have others that do the same job and weight less. Weight is critical to me. Not so much for carrying as for balance and maneuverability.
I agree and it appears that 99% of the members of this forum do as well.
This is never a reason to buy into an idea.
The issue is throwing out some web based opinion as fact that quite frankly is'nt fact, or even the real advantages in a standard weight barrel.
So since your opinions are somehow both opinion and fact while mine are simply 'web based opinions', how about you back your facts up with something solid? I would be all ears to some objective data about how pencil barrels don't get too hot too fast under sustained rates of fire....and how a guy will somehow destroy his weapon before bending a pencil barrel - (which is pure bullshit).
What are these 'real' advantages of standard weight barrels you are referring to? Are you suggesting they don't handle sustained fire better and they are somehow not stronger? What is this 'real' advantage?
You guys can have your pencil barrels, I'm not judging anyone for using them as if they couldn't handle carrying a few extra ounces (that would be a ridiculous notion). I simply disagree that they belong on a hard use weapon which could be thrown into any scenario imaginable. But then, as a combat vetted infantryman my imagination runs to worst case.
Mr.Anderson
11-02-12, 19:47
I hate to contribute to an "off topic" event, but I can't help but ask...
IF you struck someone in the chest/eye/throat, bayonet "KILL!" style, WOULD that be enough to bend a LW barrel?
I recall seeing FH's that were pointed/designed to strike someone. The name escapes me now, but I thought it would be a nice addition.
Not saying that it would ever be used in such a way. If it came down to striking with the muzzle of your weapon you would possibly be in situation where another ... tool ... would be a better choice.
Just curious if the scenario I mentioned, would bend a LW barrel.
My personal choice? I don't care for the look of the LW or the M4 profile barrels. I like more of the H-Bar look, like the OP has.
It's purely cosmetic, my choice, as I have no factual data to back it up.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.