View Full Version : .223 bolt gun out to a mile. (article)
Magic_Salad0892
09-06-12, 20:16
I thought you bolt gunners here would dig this. Especially orkan, and markm.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/shooting-223-mile-2.php
That is just crazy. EXTREMELY impressive.
I read that a while back. Having a round that transitions to subsonic well is the key.
I'm sure the journey and effort resulted in the author learning a lot. ... and he gets to have some bragging rights.
However, this is nothing new, and I learned nothing while reading those 3 pages.
http://www.northfloridashooting.com/Misc/2MilePrarieDogs/2MilePrarieDogShooters.htm
The first time I read that... it was exciting. ... but I was at a stage in my shooting ability where it seemed unimaginable, so the "wow factor" was there. Now, knowing full well what most cartridges are capable of in real world conditions... this type of stuff is unexciting. I'm glad that people have fun doing it, because when the right people push the envelope... sometimes things are learned that has real world value which leads to strides forward in technology which makes its way to my hands.
I don't think that is what will happen in this instance though. Instead it's a story about a guy's journey to do something that he was wondering about. Unfortunately for him, that road has been taken by a lot of people before him, with virtually every cartridge under the sun. I have no doubt that he had fun, and I don't doubt that a lot of people will find it amazing.
It's just that I'm not one of them. I care about real world performance. Dealing with a 1mph wind shifting your POI by 3ft... is not my idea of performance that can be counted on to do anything other than lob bullets until one of them hits. The more you lob, the higher your chances of hitting something are. This is the mantra of artillery crews... not precision marksmen.
Yeah... it's cool and all. And I know it could be done with our .308s too. But I have no desire to try it.
I'm somewhat into working on skills that can translate into real world value. And shooting a .223 that far, although pretty cool, does not transfer into something I'd really want to do in a real setting.
Magic_Salad0892
09-07-12, 21:41
Eh well... I tried.
I didn't know that .223 could reach a mile consistantly.
consistantly.
There's the key word. It just happens to be a very subjective word that means different things to different people. For me, consistent means 75% hit ratio or better on a full size IPSC in virtually any condition.
It means something else to other people. Some would say consistent means the ability to hit a tractor trailer at 1 mile?
Magic_Salad0892
09-08-12, 23:05
There's the key word. It just happens to be a very subjective word that means different things to different people. For me, consistent means 75% hit ratio or better on a full size IPSC in virtually any condition.
It means something else to other people. Some would say consistent means the ability to hit a tractor trailer at 1 mile?
According to that guy didn't his accuracy match your definition of consistancy?
I was quite surprised when we pinged a 1,000 yards with .223 quite frankly. It is pretty cool, and this journey is for each individual to take. Only person you have to impress is yourself, because you have to learn or you suck. Wind eats my ass up at 1,000 yards with .223.
300WM is money in the bank at 1K. Orkan is going to send me his DTA and a couple barrels so I can THUD the steel at 1 mile with his .338 Lapua. Or, the Big O, needs to come to the desert when it is 200 below zero up north, and bring his armory:D We will treat you to some AZ Southern Hospitality. ;)
I was quite surprised when we pinged a 1,000 yards with .223 quite frankly. It is pretty cool, and this journey is for each individual to take. Only person you have to impress is yourself, because you have to learn or you suck. Wind eats my ass up at 1,000 yards with .223.
300WM is money in the bank at 1K. Orkan is going to send me his DTA and a couple barrels so I can THUD the steel at 1 mile with his .338 Lapua. Or, the Big O, needs to come to the desert when it is 200 below zero up north, and bring his armory:D We will treat you to some AZ Southern Hospitality. ;)
For we members who can't hit the broad side of a barn at 100, how about details. What platform/scope/ammo were you shooting?
During the SPR Sniper Course my furthest hit was at approx. 879 yards. I was using a school provided SPR made by DPMS. It had some type of stainless match barrel and match trigger. Some had A2 fixed stocks and others had carbine style. I had carbine style.
All students were required to use Black Hills 77gr. match ammo. All rifles (school guns) had a Leupold Mark 4 LR/T. I believe thatt he adjustments were 1/4 MOA and it had an illuminated reticle (if I recall correctly). Magazines were also student provided. All weapons were zeroed at 100 yards.
The targets we shot at were steel silhouettes and I believe that they were approx. 10x14". We were not allowed to use any range finders. All targets had to be identified and then DOPE'd by the student using the provided formulas.
Or, the Big O, needs to come to the desert when it is 200 below zero up north, and bring his armory:D We will treat you to some AZ Southern Hospitality. ;)
Might take you up on that sometime. I get really tired of shooting up here some days. Was out today trying to hit 12" targets in a 12-35mph.
Frustrating doesn't even begin to ****n describe it.
I shoot a 223 to 1k with regularity. I love it as I feel it's the perfect training round. Here is a write up I did recently on it...
I am a big fan of the .223 for mid to long range shooting. In an effort to prove just how effective a properly set up .223 bolt gun can be, I decided to go ahead and post this. I've been an active "tactical" competitor for a couple of years, and it took that long for me to realize that there is no magic caliber/bullet/speed combo for accomplishing top results. The only answer is practice. Pretty simple concept...practice. Terry Cross says (approximately) that "shooting is a perishable skill", and with that in mind I built my 223 as a way to practice without burning up my .260....so here we go:
I first contacted Aaron Roberts (www.rprifles.com) mainly because he was local to me, and I am just around the corner from his shop on a weekly basis. I was surprised that he actually picked up the phone, spent 30 minutes talking to me about the rifle, and generally made me feel comfortable with handing all of my parts over to him. He most definitely exceeded my expectations. I had the rifle together and in my hands in less than 5 days. On the 5th day, I did load development, on the 6th day, I doped it out to 1000 yards. On the seventh day, I rested.
Here is the rifle:
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv208/JLPipes/IMG_0481.jpg
Here is the crown:
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv208/JLPipes/IMG_0482.jpg
Here is a picture of the loaded round, next to a .260 loaded round. It's an 82gr Berger BTHP in Lake City 2011 brass.
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv208/JLPipes/IMG_0484.jpg
Aaron put together the following components:
1) Stiller Tac 30
2) A5
3) PTG Stealth DBM system
4) Jewell @ 2.5lbs
5) Brux 6.5 twist, finished at 26" - I specifically asked him not to cerakote it.
6) HDMR w/G2 (love this scope, it's very well built, and the reticle is a great match reticle)
The listed G1, according to the box of bullets (82gr Berger bthp) is .450, while the Berger website lists it as .444. The bullets are of a very old lot that I bought from a very good friend and well respected shooter, so I cannot speak to whether Berger has changed any of the bullet design. I use "Shooter" as my ballistic app in the field, and there is an option to input Litz tested bullets in the ammo selection. I loaded two bullet profiles, the Litz tested 82gr BT, and the 82gr BT in which I can manipulate variables...most notably BC.
I pointed the bullets right away, and did not do any testing/load development on an unpointed 82gr bthp. I developed my load at 100, looking for the magic pressure/speed/accuracy combo. I settled on 24.4 grains of 8208, LC 2011 brass, wolf SRM primers, and the 82gr bullets at 2.490". It shoots consistently in the .3-.5 range, and the PVM-21 gave me an average velocity of 2904. I rarely, rarely, rarely shoot for groups, but here is a picture of a target I took during load development:
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv208/JLPipes/IMG_0395.jpg
Like I said, I hate shooting groups because I just end up chasing my tail. Rarely do I shoot a group this good.
Using the "litz tested profile" as my baseline my data was as follows (first data point being what Shooter called for, the second data point being what my actual was):
300 - unpointed call - 1.0 mils/pointed actual - 1.0
500 - unpointed call - 2.7/ pointed actual - 2.6
700 - unpointed call - 4.8/ pointed actual - 4.6 (very noticeable here, and this is where I started tweaking my bc adjustments. I had a nice 4 inch group high and right)
900 (DA change to 2500 from 1500-ish)- unpointed call - 7.4/ pointed actual - 7.0
1000 - unpointed call - 9.1/ pointed actual - 8.5 (wind, for reference was shifting quite a bit from 5-10mph, and was swirling quite a bit, but the wind difference between pointed vs non pointed is not quite as significant...differing by only .1 mil at 1k)
Wind at 1k is 2.2-2.3 mils, with a 10mph from my 3:00. I'm supersonic to 1250, for what it's worth...though energy is lacking.
The actual BC of the pointed bullet, out of my 26" 6.5 twist Brux, at 2900fps equates to a G1 of .490 perfectly, which surprised me greatly....a gain of approximately 10% over the listed BC of .444. I'll be the first to say that I might have done some calculating wrong, but I highly doubt it. For the type of competing that I regularly take part in, specifically tac matches in the PRS, it is most definitely worth it to point this bullet in this rifle.
Might take you up on that sometime. I get really tired of shooting up here some days. Was out today trying to hit 12" targets in a 12-35mph.
Frustrating doesn't even begin to ****n describe it.
I honestly can't even imagine. The problem as you know is the delta.
We usually get about max 15 mph winds , but even zero to fifteen is a ballbuster. Most people around here would stay home 12-35, seriously. However, Usually we are dealing with a 5 mph spread which is quite doable.
Feb or March we got you penciled in. You ought a be pretty cold about then.
For we members who can't hit the broad side of a barn at 100, how about details. What platform/scope/ammo were you shooting?
Rem700 5R, 20 inch with AAC M4-2000
Nightforce 3.5-15X56 MLR reticle, mil/mil
77 grain SMK Markm handloads
I can make hits with my SPR :
18 inch WOA BARREL, NF2.5-10 mil/mil
Same ammo
My white oak is very accurate, but the extra velocity of the 20 bolt gives my 5R the edge.
Rem700 5R, 20 inch with AAC M4-2000
Nightforce 3.5-15X56 MLR reticle, mil/mil
77 grain SMK Markm handloads
This package will out shoot my .308 at 500 yards. It's disheartening. :blink:
Rem700 5R, 20 inch with AAC M4-2000
Nightforce 3.5-15X56 MLR reticle, mil/mil
77 grain SMK Markm handloads
This package will out shoot my .308 at 500 yards. It's disheartening. :blink:
Are you still supersonic at 1000?
Are you still supersonic at 1000?
Nope. We're hitting transonic around 800. The SMKs seem to pass through it just fine though.
I have gone 5 hits in a row on an IPSC sized gong... hammering them out before the wind changed. So those bullets seem to hold together fairly well.
Magic_Salad0892
09-12-12, 09:55
If that dude can push .223 out to 1700m, then shouldn't .308 be able to do it as well? With less wind drift?
If that dude can push .223 out to 1700m, then shouldn't .308 be able to do it as well? With less wind drift?
The answer is, it depends.
It depends on the bullet, velocity, DA, experience, etc...
The short answer is: Yes.
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