View Full Version : Gotta keep them ARs clean
Suwannee Tim
09-07-12, 15:17
....or they won't run.
I have about 5,000 rounds of 5.45 mm through a particular AR, a box stock Smith and Wesson, without any cleaning of the lower. Today I took some 450 Bushmaster handloads, to make a long story shorter I had two fizzles with the handloads and wound up with a teaspoon of unburned powder in the lower. I was going to take it to the maintenance shop and blow it out but decided what the heck, give it a try. Put the 5.45 mm upper back on and shot 300 rounds, not a bit of trouble. I did notice the bolt got harder to pull back as I shot, the unburned powder was getting bounced out of the lower into the upper and gumming things up. I gave the lower a complete strip down cleaning and it was absolutely slap full of crud in addition to the unburned powder that got spilled into it. I cleaned the 5.45 mm bolt, same thing, absolutely slap full of crud. The bolt hasn't been cleaned in a long time, the upper I give the hot water treatment every time I shoot but the bolt I just submerge in ATF until the next shooting trip. The gun didn't care, just kept banging away. I guess it hasn't been told it has to be kept spotlessly clean. I had one of my little buddies with me, he was horrified how dirty the gun was but then he just graduated Marine recruit training a week ago.
Details:
WW 296 powder, 33, 34, 35, 36 and 37 grains under Winchester 230 grain round nose bullets, CCI small rifle primers. Shot them out of a Bushie upper on this S&W lower. The first round hangfired. Following round jammed due to unburned powder in the chamber. Rodded out the powder, tried 34 grain load, same thing. Second round, a fizzle, powder didn't burn, the primer just popped the bullet out of the case. Happilly the bullet was barely into the rifling, it just bumped right out with the cleaning rod, this time I get 30 or so grains of powder in the action, much of it spilling into the lower. I tried one of the 37 grain loads, another hangfire then another fizzle. Now I got probably a good 20 or 25 grains of WW 296 in the lower.
This post is hard for me to track but, it sounds like a reloading problem. Not a firearm problem.
Oddly enough the guys with the cleanest AR's seem to have the most issues in my experiences. They take that ultra clean thing to the point of not using enough lube and essentially running them dry or adding CLP every 100rds which makes no sense to me
Suwannee Tim
09-07-12, 15:55
This post is hard for me to track but, it sounds like a reloading problem. Not a firearm problem.
Edited, hopefully more readable. It was an ammo problem, the point is how the AR responded to the teaspoon of fined grained powder dumped inside the works.
fallenromeo
09-07-12, 16:01
I think BCM would disagree with you about keeping the AR squeaky clean.
sinlessorrow
09-07-12, 16:46
Oddly enough the guys with the cleanest AR's seem to have the most issues in my experiences. They take that ultra clean thing to the point of not using enough lube and essentially running them dry or adding CLP every 100rds which makes no sense to me
Didn't you hear, lube attracts sand and dust.
Had an old marine dude lambast me at the range the other day because i simply put some slip2k on my rifle everytime i shoot instead of wire brushing it into oblivion, haha
He kept talking about how us kids dont know how to care for guns anymore then he went into some bs about scrubbing the chamber and bolt every session with a brush.
sent from my overcompensation tool known as the galaxy note
....or they won't run.
I have about 5,000 rounds of 5.45 mm through a particular AR, a box stock Smith and Wesson, without any cleaning of the lower.
.
I have a complete build with over 5,000 rounds that other than lube, has never been touched for any maintenance, and runs like a machine. That's when I usually replace the extractor, spring, buffer, buffer spring, and gas rings.
without any cleaning of the lower.
Crap, I did not know I ever needed to clean the lower.
....or they won't run.
I have about 5,000 rounds of 5.45 mm through a particular AR, a box stock Smith and Wesson, without any cleaning of the lower. Today I took some 450 Bushmaster handloads, to make a long story shorter I had two fizzles with the handloads and wound up with a teaspoon of unburned powder in the lower. I was going to take it to the maintenance shop and blow it out but decided what the heck, give it a try. Put the 5.45 mm upper back on and shot 300 rounds, not a bit of trouble. I did notice the bolt got harder to pull back as I shot, the unburned powder was getting bounced out of the lower into the upper and gumming things up. I gave the lower a complete strip down cleaning and it was absolutely slap full of crud in addition to the unburned powder that got spilled into it. I cleaned the 5.45 mm bolt, same thing, absolutely slap full of crud. The bolt hasn't been cleaned in a long time, the upper I give the hot water treatment every time I shoot but the bolt I just submerge in ATF until the next shooting trip. The gun didn't care, just kept banging away. I guess it hasn't been told it has to be kept spotlessly clean. I had one of my little buddies with me, he was horrified how dirty the gun was but then he just graduated Marine recruit training a week ago.
Details:
WW 296 powder, 33, 34, 35, 36 and 37 grains under Winchester 230 grain round nose bullets, CCI small rifle primers. Shot them out of a Bushie upper on this S&W lower. The first round hangfired. Following round jammed due to unburned powder in the chamber. Rodded out the powder, tried 34 grain load, same thing. Second round, a fizzle, powder didn't burn, the primer just popped the bullet out of the case. Happilly the bullet was barely into the rifling, it just bumped right out with the cleaning rod, this time I get 30 or so grains of powder in the action, much of it spilling into the lower. I tried one of the 37 grain loads, another hangfire then another fizzle. Now I got probably a good 20 or 25 grains of WW 296 in the lower.
If I remember right I've got an wolfe extra power hammer spring in my lower that's coupled with my 5.45 upper so I don't change uppers out. Was afraid it would cause a problem. Am I wrong?
Straight Shooter
09-08-12, 05:24
Speaking as "an old Marine"...
I can say without hesitatation that almost EVERYTHING we were taught back then, in the early eighties in my case, was wrong.
The absolute overcleaning & scrubbing, the MANDATORY 3 day cleaning after firing, using those horrid steel buttstock cleaning rods over and over and over, my God, how those rifles were able to hit a damn thing is simply amazing.
But, then, it was the most up-to-date, state of the art info we had.
Now you take those guys, who after the Corps, NEVER had any further training or learned anything else after they got out, cause you know, they were MARINES by God, and we know everything, and anything else besides what I just described is heresy.
THE most sorry assed, dangerous gun handling Ive ever seen was while I was in the Corps.
I wonder, do they still insist on the white glove cleanliness and 3 day cleaning regimine after firing?
sinlessorrow
09-08-12, 06:12
Speaking as "an old Marine"...
I can say without hesitatation that almost EVERYTHING we were taught back then, in the early eighties in my case, was wrong.
The absolute overcleaning & scrubbing, the MANDATORY 3 day cleaning after firing, using those horrid steel buttstock cleaning rods over and over and over, my God, how those rifles were able to hit a damn thing is simply amazing.
But, then, it was the most up-to-date, state of the art info we had.
Now you take those guys, who after the Corps, NEVER had any further training or learned anything else after they got out, cause you know, they were MARINES by God, and we know everything, and anything else besides what I just described is heresy.
THE most sorry assed, dangerous gun handling Ive ever seen was while I was in the Corps.
I wonder, do they still insist on the white glove cleanliness and 3 day cleaning regimine after firing?
My friend in the Army still does to this day.
Suwannee Tim
09-08-12, 06:29
I had forgotten, I ran maybe 10K rounds of 22 long rifle with this lower. 22 long rifle is dirty, dirty, dirty.
I did not put the extra power hammer spring in the lower. I have the occasional failure to go bang which I use as malfunction clearance practice. I also have a couple of jammamatic magazines I use for the same purpose.
I don't know if an extra power hammer spring would cause problems with conventional center fire ammo. I would not use it with 22 long rifle.
Littlelebowski
09-08-12, 06:32
If I remember right I've got an wolfe extra power hammer spring in my lower that's coupled with my 5.45 upper so I don't change uppers out. Was afraid it would cause a problem. Am I wrong?
You'll be fine.
hotrodder636
09-08-12, 07:32
I think BCM would disagree with you about keeping the AR squeaky clean.
Pretty sure Tim was being sarcastic dude.
This was not only a MC problem. On one occasion, because of an anal armorer, all us flunkies took our ARs in the shower and scrubbed till every microbe was defeated. They were stored bone dry.
I think much of this came from the 'last war' when corrosive primers were used and a clean rifle was the definition of a 'right soldier/Marine'. Things tend to stick around longer than they need to.
Then there were problems with the M16 and its use/misuse in the early days of VN.
Straight Shooter
09-08-12, 08:26
Oh yeah..Ive showered with Ole Faithful more than once...I had forgotten about that!!
Your right m4brian....I know it was service wide. And...I too believe it was just a holdover from a bygone era from blackpowder right up to
corrosive powders/primers.
As always, the military are the LAST to change their ways, usually kicking and screaming.
As weapons/ammo/techniques/technology have evolved, so has weapons maintenance. I qarauntee a boresnake back in the 70's & 80's would have been laughed out og the barracks. I oft wonder, if 20-25 years from now, where we'll be and what we will have, and if we will look back to NOW and say the same thing about us, as we do about them back then.
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ppppp_desktop_px_2-tm-tfb.jpg
It's great that the weapon system can run like this, but sensable cleaning ( note I said sensable :) is always a good idea if you have the downtime. It really doesnt take that long to once over a weapon.......
I have a few things I would like to comment on. I know that "the one and only way" is defined, so what I say probably won't matter, but I think people need some perspective on this "no cleaning" thing.
1. Weapons do not need to be white glove clean to function. Everybody knows this. The whole point of cleaning the gun, ie wiping down the parts, it to facilitate proper parts inspection, not making it spotless.
In addition, gunpowder residue build up will absorb moisture, and can lead to corrosion/rust. This of course depends on materials used, coatings etc.
2. Lube
"Didn't you hear, lube attracts sand and dust."
Well, actually it does. Not a huge problem with assault or battle rifles, seeing as they are mostly closed systems, but it is an issue with crew served weapons, where sand and dust can and will get into the feeding mechanism of the gun.
This is why we try and limit the amount of lube on the outside of the gun, whilst running it sufficiently lubed on the inside.
Dry guns will be coated with sand and dust as well, but doesn't gum up like the areas with lube do. Still, wet sand glides better than dry sand.
The main culprit in regards to foreign debris inside the receiver, are magazines; sand, rocks and dirt gets into the pouches when people are shooting from the prone, low crawling etc, and gets into the gun via the mag. Depending on the amount and size, this can cause some serious issues.
3. "The military way is retarded, and soldiers don't know what they are doing"
This is a common theme, and somewhat understandable. There is no doubt that the "white glove clean" approach to weapons maintenance lost it's original intent somewhere along the way.
I am not going to claim that I know where it happened, or why, but I am pretty sure that the "clean rifle" approach was initially a result of one thing:
An easy standard to enforce across the board to ensure that everybody maintained their weapons.
It was not something that was implemented from a lack of knowledge.
In the military you have studs, duds and everything in between. To enforce a standard that states "no need to clean you guns, just put lube on it", is difficult and problematic. How can you, as a leader, tell if a gun is in working order when doing inspections? How can you tell if the soldier has actually lubed his gun? Is it just the old lube still on there?
Somewhere along the way, the original intent was lost in translation; everyone who has been in the military and done message/comunication drills when marching single file, knows that the message delivered to the first guy is not the same message repeated by the last guy.
This phenomenon is pretty common in the military, unfortunatly, where proper knowledge of intent/cause/reason of why something is done a specific way is substituted by "hearsay knowledge"; after a while this "knowledge" becomes a de facto truth, and no one can no longer recall the original intent/cause/reason.
That is why soldiers are now judged on the cleanliness of their guns, and use retarded methods to get them spotless; their instructors was taught by their instructors, who in turn was taught by their instructors and the message was scrambled along the way.
I'll end with this Gunfighter Moment, by Larry Vickers:
Gunfighter Moment – Larry Vickers
“Attention to detail; in the world of combat marksmanship there is absolutely no substitute for attention to detail. Simple things like proper maintanence can literally mean success or failure in a gunfight.”
-Larry Vickers
MSG, US Army (Ret)
http://soldiersystems.net/2012/09/01/gunfighter-moment-larry-vickers-3/
sinlessorrow
09-08-12, 14:31
I have a few things I would like to comment on. I know that "the one and only way" is defined, so what I say probably won't matter, but I think people need some perspective on this "no cleaning" thing.
1. Weapons do not need to be white glove clean to function. Everybody knows this. The whole point of cleaning the gun, ie wiping down the parts, it to facilitate proper parts inspection, not making it spotless.
In addition, gunpowder residue build up will absorb moisture, and can lead to corrosion/rust. This of course depends on materials used, coatings etc.
2. Lube
"Didn't you hear, lube attracts sand and dust."
Well, actually it does. Not a huge problem with assault or battle rifles, seeing as they are mostly closed systems, but it is an issue with crew served weapons, where sand and dust can and will get into the feeding mechanism of the gun.
This is why we try and limit the amount of lube on the outside of the gun, whilst running it sufficiently lubed on the inside.
Dry guns will be coated with sand and dust as well, but doesn't gum up like the areas with lube do. Still, wet sand glides better than dry sand.
The main culprit in regards to foreign debris inside the receiver, are magazines; sand, rocks and dirt gets into the pouches when people are shooting from the prone, low crawling etc, and gets into the gun via the mag. Depending on the amount and size, this can cause some serious issues.
3. "The military way is retarded, and soldiers don't know what they are doing"
This is a common theme, and somewhat understandable. There is no doubt that the "white glove clean" approach to weapons maintenance lost it's original intent somewhere along the way.
I am not going to claim that I know where it happened, or why, but I am pretty sure that the "clean rifle" approach was initially a result of one thing:
An easy standard to enforce across the board to ensure that everybody maintained their weapons.
It was not something that was implemented from a lack of knowledge.
In the military you have studs, duds and everything in between. To enforce a standard that states "no need to clean you guns, just put lube on it", is difficult and problematic. How can you, as a leader, tell if a gun is in working order when doing inspections? How can you tell if the soldier has actually lubed his gun? Is it just the old lube still on there?
Somewhere along the way, the original intent was lost in translation; everyone who has been in the military and done message/comunication drills when marching single file, knows that the message delivered to the first guy is not the same message repeated by the last guy.
This phenomenon is pretty common in the military, unfortunatly, where proper knowledge of intent/cause/reason of why something is done a specific way is substituted by "hearsay knowledge"; after a while this "knowledge" becomes a de facto truth, and no one can no longer recall the original intent/cause/reason.
That is why soldiers are now judged on the cleanliness of their guns, and use retarded methods to get them spotless; their instructors was taught by their instructors, who in turn was taught by their instructors and the message was scrambled along the way.
I'll end with this Gunfighter Moment, by Larry Vickers:
http://soldiersystems.net/2012/09/01/gunfighter-moment-larry-vickers-3/
I don't anyone really condones just lubing and pressing on for a duty rifle. Ones used for range use sure, the system can easily handle it when lubricated and if the rifle is just for the range why clean it.
The issue is that when cleaning requiresthe use of steel objects to make sure every single bit of cabon is gone you end up damaging the parts and having to replace them before their time. I could make a ten page report on stupid ways to clean your rifle that my friends have told me they use to clean their rifles.
I clean my rifle after every time I use it but my cleaning is just a simple wipedown of everything, no scraping or scrubbing.
As former 19D Cavalry Scout in an Air Cavalry Troop I can tell you that our SOP for cleaning our M16A1s (and M60s) is as follows:
- Disassemble the weapon.
- With an ungloved hands, dunk the parts into to the solvent.
- With whatever tools you needed for cleaning, scrub away!
And if we had an inspection from a higher HQ, we even went so far as to clean the chamber and locking lugs with a chamber brush attached to a section of cleaning rod with the other end chucked to an electric hand drill. Ah, the good ol days!
FWIW, the solvent tank made from a 55 gal drum cut in half with welded angle iron bars for legs.
Suwannee Tim
09-08-12, 20:14
Run 'em wet. That's the advice and I follow it. Has anyone else noticed they throw a lot of oil when run wet? I have several yellow shirts, my "don't shoot me" shirts when I'm at the range and my "don't run over me" shirts when I'm riding my bicycle. They are sprayed with oil stains from the ARs. I'm participating in Ladies Day at my range in October, providing and supervising a couple of ARs. I don't want the ladies getting their blouses ruined so I'm going to run them dry. That'll be a first for me.
Is cleaning a rifle that tough to do? I am not talking white glove inspection clean, but some people are taking pride out of having a dirty as shit rifle. That says more to me about the person than the rifle. If one were to simply do a field strip and wipe stuff down at the end of a range session and lube the rifle back up, there really is no need to scrub away or wire brush anything. And yes a simple wipe down IS cleaning the weapon and often all that is needed if you do it on a regular basis and not let the thing sit and allow for case hardened build up. I give a bit more attention to detail when it comes to the chamber area to ensure that there is no large debris or gunk in it and it is clean. As mentioned gun powder residue = corrosion = bad for the throat.
Littlelebowski
09-08-12, 21:17
I wouldn't worry about throat erosion on a carbine or not for intervals under 1k rounds between cleanings. I might clean more if I was being paid to carry a rifle again and could do it on work time.
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ppppp_desktop_px_2-tm-tfb.jpg
It's great that the weapon system can run like this, but sensable cleaning ( note I said sensable :) is always a good idea if you have the downtime. It really doesnt take that long to once over a weapon.......
I'm saving that pic to go with my dirty 1911 pic <<<=8)Ron
mastiffhound
09-09-12, 05:44
I always clean and lube after every range session. The hardest things I have ever used to scub any AR down has been a plastic toothbrush(you would be amazed at how well the electric toothbrushes work) and brass brushes. I have never run them dry. It seems the longer you wait to clean it the harder that carbon gets? Would my AR's pass a white glove test? Who knows, probably not. But I have supreme confidence they will run under any circumstance that would arise. I just can't see a reason for not cleaning your rifle after each use.
Just looking over your rifle for possible problems and broken or worn parts is enough reason for me to pull it apart. All of this with one more thing, if Dad came over for some range time( he calls it family time) and seen a dirty rifle he would give me a ton of crap and a full lecture about how a clean rifle saved his life. Why argue? That is time you could be cleaning your rifle son (at least that is what I was told).
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ppppp_desktop_px_2-tm-tfb.jpg
It's great that the weapon system can run like this, but sensable cleaning ( note I said sensable :) is always a good idea if you have the downtime. It really doesnt take that long to once over a weapon.......
Did it function like this?
polymorpheous
12-02-12, 07:48
Did it function like this?
The rifle belongs to a member of my local range.
Good guy.
This was done a while back using Wolf ammo when it was still less than $100 a case.
If I remember correctly, it was a Model 1 sales upper and a Bushmaster bolt.
I may have that backwards.
ETA: It was a Bushmaster upper with a M1S BCG.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/06/09/a-clean-wouldnt-hurt/
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/499497__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Anyone_remember_the_pics_of_the_AR_after_1_000_s_of_rounds_of_Wolf_.html&page=1
Littlelebowski
12-02-12, 08:32
I always clean and lube after every range session. The hardest things I have ever used to scub any AR down has been a plastic toothbrush(you would be amazed at how well the electric toothbrushes work) and brass brushes. I have never run them dry. It seems the longer you wait to clean it the harder that carbon gets? Would my AR's pass a white glove test? Who knows, probably not. But I have supreme confidence they will run under any circumstance that would arise. I just can't see a reason for not cleaning your rifle after each use.
Just looking over your rifle for possible problems and broken or worn parts is enough reason for me to pull it apart. All of this with one more thing, if Dad came over for some range time( he calls it family time) and seen a dirty rifle he would give me a ton of crap and a full lecture about how a clean rifle saved his life. Why argue? That is time you could be cleaning your rifle son (at least that is what I was told).
Sigh....
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Unfortunately, I came from the old school method. If I had a dollar for ever time I stood in line while the Armorer nitpicked with a q-tip...
So, having said that, I'd really like to hear what IS considered a good cleaning ritual.
Littlelebowski
12-02-12, 09:46
Unfortunately, I came from the old school method. If I had a dollar for ever time I stood in line while the Armorer nitpicked with a q-tip...
So, having said that, I'd really like to hear what IS considered a good cleaning ritual.
Spray entire weapon including all internals out with non chrlorinated brake cleaner (outdoors). Relube heavily all wear points and where carbon accumulates. Punch bore with 2-6 patches of carbon solvent, then the same of copper solvent. Don't do this any more frequently than every 500 rounds, preferably double that. Replace springs and gas rings at recommended intervals. Enjoy your newfound free time and lessened exposure to chemicals.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Spray entire weapon including all internals out with non chrlorinated brake cleaner (outdoors). Relube heavily all wear points and where carbon accumulates. Punch bore with 2-6 patches of carbon solvent, then the same of copper solvent. Don't do this any mode frequently than every 500 rounds, preferably double that. Replace springs and gas rings at recommended intervals. Enjoy your newfound free time andnlessed exposure to chemicals.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Thank you for the response. That's great because I HATE a 3 hour cleaning ritual. I've done some reading where ppl are very specific (including Noveske) about the direction that you run the brush thru the bore (one direction only, etc. etc.); can you elaborate or pontificate on that?
If you want to laugh read the TM for the M4 (TM 05538C-10/1A
TM9-1005-319-10). It says the weapon should be stored with a light coat of oil. It also says not use cleaners other than RBC and CLP. It also says that in a desert environment you should lube the internals but refain from lubing the outside. So a lot of the super anal stuff is actually not supported by the manuel. I'm not trying to sell doctrine, or the book. What I am saying is that some of in uniform need to read the book, before we start enforcing/creating standards.
Littlelebowski
12-02-12, 10:10
You can theoretically damage the crown by going reverse of the direction the bullet travels. I punch the bore the direction the bullet travels and remove the patch at the muzzle. Try to have a few minutes in between each patch to let the chemicals work.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Wow, talk about missing the sarcasm in the op
RogerinTPA
12-02-12, 10:27
This topic, along with using Wolf ammo, comes up a few times a year and probably deserves it's own thread. Anyway...while in Basic, AIT and regular Army units, it was scrub until you caused more damage to the weapon then from actual use, & did what I was told. The M-16FOW is still dogged by it's Vietnam experience by NCOICs, from other NCO, and Officers who are mentored by the same, at every level, regurgitating hearsay, despite what the operator's manual states.
I have shot match grade weapons (with tighter tolerances) back in the day from .22s, M16s, & M-14s, on various rifle teams all the way to competing at Camp Perry with the USAMU. We would shoot 25K+ during a competition season, with out cleaning, unless the operation or accuracy started to decline. We believed that cleaning degraded accuracy. If you cleaned it, you'd have to re-zero because the accuracy you had prior, wasn't there anymore.
Since being on M4C, and hearing this 'clean your weapon after every use' from new members on a regular basis, I decided to test the delicacy of my weapon. At the time, and prior, I was totally ignorant of what a quality AR was or if a civilian variant could hold up to not being military scrubbed to death before it would function properly. It was a Sabre Middy upper on a Colt Sporter lower. I shot it until the weapon malfunctioned. I had a few (FTE, FTF), but they were attributed to either a bad magazine or not having enough extractor tension, while shooting Wolf. After identifying and fixing those issues, I planned on taking it up to 1500 rounds, without cleaning, just lube. Once I reached that goal without malfunction, I kept going until getting a couple of FTEs around the 3500 mark. It was due to the gummy red primer sealant that Wolf & Brown Bear uses. It had worked it's way under the extractor, completely filling the gap with the gummy red sealant. Once the extractor area was cleaned, I continued to shoot until the 5K mark before a thorough cleaning was performed.
For the next few years as I accumulated more ARs and increase my knowledge on the platform (and knowing which ones were crap), I did this test again with 2 x 6920s, LMT MRP, & a DD LW Middy. The major culprit was eastern european ammo, which I have shot probably 50K+ of over the years, then a bad mag or two along the way. I currently don't clean until the 3K mark with steel cased ammo (my reliability mark), I have taken a 6920 up to 8K with brass ammo (PMC, Federal XM193, American Eagle, Q3131, and IMI193) without malfunction. Eastern european ammo (I haven't used Tula and Brown bear is my GoTo ammo since I can't ever recall having any issues with it) is great economical training fodder, but you have to know it & your weapon's limits. The same can be said for brass ammo. I've been in quite a few carbine courses where a weapon went down due to popped primers, while my uncleaned weapon and Wolf kept on working. I've also been in several of Pat Roger's Carbine Operator's courses and are very familiar with his T&E guns, particularly, Filthy 14 (BCM Middy). If interested, Google it and see the results. This is just my training and personal use observations so if members want to clean their AR after every shoot, drive on. I have better things to do with my time. If I had to carry an AR for a living, that would be a different story...But I do know what my personal weapons are capable of.
Who spends 3 hours cleaning their guns?
Anyways, I thought I had posted my routine previously, but couldn't find the post, so here goes.
Immediatly after I am done shooting for the day I run a patch soaked in CLP through the bore, so that the heat from the barrel helps the CLP seep inside the micro-pores in the barrel, and start to dissolve any carbon build up.
When I get back home or to the barracks, I use compressed air if available (either from a stand alone air compressor or air on a can) to blow off any debris/dust/sand/dirt from the outside of my gun. Then I field strip it, and use air to blow out any debris/dust/sand/dirt from the inside of the gun.
I then go on to clean my optic, before my hands get all oily and dirty. I use a lense brush tom remove large particles, and lense paper folded up to clean the lenses. Start in the middle, and continue outwards to the edge in a circular motion. Do not apply to much force in case you missed a grain of sand, as you can scratch the lense. If there are stains after the first run, I just breathe on the lense and repeat. You can also use a q-tip soaked in isopropanol to help remove any grease marks on the lenses.
The next step is to place the piston in a cup filled with lube, and let it sit so that build up starts to dissolve. I then proceed to wipe down all the individual parts with cleaning patches soaked in CLP. I tend to use a lot of patches, to avoid just moving dirt around. After they are wiped down, I relube them. I also inspect them visually during this.
I then use the chamber brush and nylon toothbrush to clean the barrel extension and chamber. This is followed by the barrel, and I use a copper brush soaked in CLP, and run it through a few times. I finish off with two-three runs of my boresnake, and inspect by pulling a clean patch through. If it's not too dirty I'm happy.
The final thing is to clean and remove any visible build up on the piston. It is usually easily removed with a copper brush after being soaked for a while.
Reassembly and function check ends the routine. Takes maybe 15-20 minutes.
My lubrication scheme:
Inside upper receiver
Barrel extension
Oprod
Piston
Adjustable gas regulator
Charging handle
Ejection port cover spring and pin
Forward assist (never used, but it's a moving part)
Trigger springs
Selector switch and axle
Mag release
Bolt catch
Buffer and spring
Bolt carrier
Bolt
Firing pin and spring
Cam pin
For arctic conditions I apply more lube to the external parts than I do in sandy conditions. Lube amounts inside the gun remain the same, regardless of field conditions. I am liberal when applying lube, but it's not dripping out of the magwell.
My field maintenance routine is similar, but dependant on use and exposure; I might spend less time if weather has been good, if I haven't fired the gun and it has not been exposed to the elements a lot. But it is a part of the standard routine every day, before food and rest, when out on operations.
OCD to some, perhaps. The devil is in the details, and I try to remove as many variables as I can, so that my gun goes bang every time every time I need it to. I have used this routine on my gun for 4 1/2 years now, and only changed a handguard (broken screw) and replaced the piston once (worn rings). It is not excessive, or damaging to the gun.
I was told to clean very often with chamber and bore brushes. I stopped doing that, well I never really did it.
This is my regimen which I find most reasonable for me, and works: clean every 800-1,000 rounds. Last time I fired around 900 rounds in a camping trip, the weapon was filthy because I put a bit too much drops of EWL on it. When out in the desert there though, more lube the better, sandish little rock dirt, whatever it is out there, got into the mags like no other, from prone, they still operated fine. They were not dirty compared to the soldiers in Iraq, however. The bolt was gritty as hell, you had to slam the charging handle forward, or have it lock back and use the bolt release else it would lose momentum and jam the gun. Next I will try "enough" lube, not more the better philosophy, due to gritty dirty experiences there. Though the fine rocks in the moving parts of the gun could have been responsible for feeding issues. I could work the gun, but my friend found it difficult not knowing.
Most of my not cleaning my gun to get it dirty as hell is to know and understand its workings in that condition, for I know how it operates clean. And as I always hear: "You do not get into gun fights in sunny weather with raindows and stuff, etc." So knowing how the gun runs dirty, just if I am ever in that situation for some reason, is good knowledge. Same with when I ran until the lube dried. It is also like when my offroad trucking friends like when they see their truck all muddy: they know they just had fun and that is the result. So when can visibly see my gun filthy, I know I just worked hard all weekend trying to improve myself, I also, very strangely, enjoy the smell of it when its back in my room reeking up the place, :D
When I do clean my rifle, I am usually coming back from a weekend of training- just drills I do myself no carbine classes yet- and its filthy, in my standards, over lubed with dirt stuck,and carbon and lube spewing out of the dust cover, the rifle is tan and the carbon outside the gun and lubing coming out is noticeable. So I put on the Bellator fights I missed that Friday, and get everything spotless with q-tips, I use no metal to clean my rifle.
Yes, you can say I over clean it, it does not *need* to be spotless and the BCG does not need to be lit up with a light to less every last spot, but its more of a relaxing experience to me than it is fearing it not operating.
Littlelebowski
12-02-12, 11:00
Wow, talk about missing the sarcasm in the op
Wow, talk about missing the rest of the thread.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Littlelebowski
12-02-12, 11:01
There's nothing a q-tip can clean or reach that brake cleaner can't do better and faster. The white glove and "so and so taught me X amount of years ago so that is the ONLY way to do it" crowd are free to practice their peculiar form of weapons worship while ignoring thefact that there are indeed better and faster ways to do things though.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Spray entire weapon including all internals out with non chrlorinated brake cleaner (outdoors). Relube heavily all wear points and where carbon accumulates. Punch bore with 2-6 patches of carbon solvent, then the same of copper solvent. Don't do this any more frequently than every 500 rounds, preferably double that. Replace springs and gas rings at recommended intervals. Enjoy your newfound free time and lessened exposure to chemicals.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
This is what I do. I tend to run the internals a little wet with lube after cleaning.
Looking back to my military days, I believe I caused more wear and tear on my rifle by the way I cleaned it than I ever did by firing it.
While MAYBE a little off topic, it's very interesting to see all the different responses and I'd like to hear more. While my desire is to have a 'spotless' rifle at all times, I'm just too danged lazy to spend more time cleaning than shooting.
Actually, it gets in the way of having fun, as I'll have this internal debate..."If I shoot this, I'm gonna have to clean the dang thing when I get home"...
Yeah, I've read the TM plenty of times, but I served long enough to know that the Army way isn't necessarily the "only" or "right" way..
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2704/4121218108_27394d1a52.jpg
As primers were corrosive up to about 1952ish....and hot soapy water is also used to clean after using corrosive primers, this also may explain your showers....
In defense of cleaning your AR once in blue moon, if not after every range trip, it does give you the opportunity to check for such things as damaged/cracked parts, loose carrier keys, etc.
Maintenance does not only mean cleaning, it also means inspecting for wear and damage.
Or you can just shoot it until it breaks....
sinlessorrow
12-02-12, 20:26
I clean my rifle after every use but not obsessively.
Use chamber brush to clean chamber(twirl for 20 seconds), followed bu a chamber mop to clean up.
Wipe out upper with rag.
Run bore snake down bore 2-3 times with lube on the brass brushes.
Use small string part of borsnake to loop around gas tube and clean it.
Completely wipe down BCG with rag and scrub the tail with a GI toothbrush lubed up for 20 seconds.
Take Cat M-4 and put a 2x2" patch on end to clean inside of Bolt carrier.
Wipe downCH.
Remove buffer and spring, wipe them down with a rag.
Use my rag to wipe down lower including FCG.
Relube everything and reasseble.
For the barrel iuse the tail end of the boresnake to wipe it off, and past the gandguards I use a rag, then relube for rust prevention.
All in all takes no time and this gets my gun perfectly clean without doing harm.
RogerinTPA
12-02-12, 20:58
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2704/4121218108_27394d1a52.jpg
As primers were corrosive up to about 1952ish....and hot soapy water is also used to clean after using corrosive primers, this also may explain your showers....
In defense of cleaning your AR once in blue moon, if not after every range trip, it does give you the opportunity to check for such things as damaged/cracked parts, loose carrier keys, etc.
Maintenance does not only mean cleaning, it also means inspecting for wear and damage.
Or you can just shoot it until it breaks....
Chrome lining wasn't a characteristic of most firearms produced during that era, either, hence the 'pitting' and 3 days of cleaning BS. The carry over of that information by people in charge from that era & Vietnam was passed from one NCO/Officer to another, adnauseum. Funny how 'hearsay & BS' throughout the ages, is more regulatory in nature to this day, rather than the information that's actually current in the operator's manual for that weapon. It's called being to ****in lazy to read up and keep current and following the dogma/mantra/BS of previous lazy inept leaders.
It's like applying non-current info that doesn't apply from the first aircraft I ever flew 27 years ago, and trying to apply it to what I'm flying today. Not only would it would be completely incompetent, stupid and foolish, but I'd get my pilot's license cut in half by the Feds and fired by my company.
Littlelebowski
12-02-12, 21:39
That defines obsessive to me. Not talking shit.
I clean my rifle after every use but not obsessively.
Use chamber brush to clean chamber(twirl for 20 seconds), followed bu a chamber mop to clean up.
Wipe out upper with rag.
Run bore snake down bore 2-3 times with lube on the brass brushes.
Use small string part of borsnake to loop around gas tube and clean it.
Completely wipe down BCG with rag and scrub the tail with a GI toothbrush lubed up for 20 seconds.
Take Cat M-4 and put a 2x2" patch on end to clean inside of Bolt carrier.
Wipe downCH.
Remove buffer and spring, wipe them down with a rag.
Use my rag to wipe down lower including FCG.
Relube everything and reasseble.
For the barrel iuse the tail end of the boresnake to wipe it off, and past the gandguards I use a rag, then relube for rust prevention.
All in all takes no time and this gets my gun perfectly clean without doing harm.
sinlessorrow
12-02-12, 21:55
That defines obsessive to me. Not talking shit.
How so? no scraping, no scrubbing and takes 15-20 minutes.
I typically twirl mine 23 seconds every 452 rounds. Not one round more.
:sarcastic:
Littlelebowski
12-02-12, 22:10
By "spray," I mean non chrlorinated brake cleaner.c I'll put my 5.45 with 24k rounds up against your meticulously maintained rifle and my 5.45 won't look any worse for the wear. WITH corrosive ammo being the main diet for the 5.45.
Use chamber brush to clean chamber(twirl for 20 seconds), followed bu a chamber mop to clean up. Waste of time, spray out
Wipe out upper with rag.Waste of time, spray out
Run bore snake down bore 2-3 times with lube on the brass brushes.Misdirected, use proper cleaning tools and chemicals every 1k rounds or so, or when accuracy drops off
Use small string part of borsnake to loop around gas tube and clean it.COMPLETE waste of time, spray out
Completely wipe down BCG with rag and scrub the tail with a GI toothbrush lubed up for 20 seconds.Spray out
Take Cat M-4 and put a 2x2" patch on end to clean inside of Bolt carrier.Don't fall for that scraping shit, spray out
Wipe downCH.Spray off
Remove buffer and spring, wipe them down with a rag.Useless
Use my rag to wipe down lower including FCG.Obviated by spraying off, relubing
Relube everything and reasseble.
For the barrel iuse the tail end of the boresnake to wipe it off, and past the gandguards I use a rag, then relube for rust prevention.It's Parkerized
sinlessorrow
12-02-12, 22:15
By "spray," I mean non chrlorinated brake cleaner.c I'll put my 5.45 with 24k rounds up against your meticulously maintained rifle and my 5.45 won't look any worse for the wear. WITH corrosive ammo being the main diet for the 5.45.
I do not use brake cleaner and while I could I like to sit in my living room while I clean.
I also dont scrape with the Cat M-4 tool, it has a small hole in it to stick a patch that you wrap around it and it just wipes out what is in the bolt carrier, no scraping needed.
Like I said 15-20 minutes and I am done.
This threads makes me feel like a dirty little bitch.
I rarely clean my guns. Lube 'em, sure. But clean them. Hell no. I have better things to do and in my probably low value opinion, most guns don't NEED the cleaning religiously.
But if you want to. Sweet.
After shooting I check for anything in the action that might get in the way of proper functioning... carbon, sand, bits of brass, primers, etc... Then I make sure it's lubed enough to prevent binding or corrosion.
I do snake the bore every now and then, but don't actually 'clean' the bore after shooting as I don't want to mess up my zero.
The main reason I don't clean my AR's much is that they will just get dirty again.
When I do thoroughly clean and inspect them, every year or so, it's with spray cleaner as Lew suggests, and I am big on using an air compressor to blast particles out, dry things off, evenly spread the lube. I'm a Paslode tool repair person, and this is how I clean air/gas tools I work on.
I was in the Army during the 'wear OD, eat from cans, drive jeeps' era, and we WAY over cleaned our M16 A1's. I got a Q-Tip end stuck inside the gas key one day and said "Oh crap I got a Q-Tip stuck in there" too loud and was overheard by a DI... spent 1/2 hour in the FLR position while he got an allen wrench and got the cotton out.
I found out later that the cotton will not cause a malf, it just blows right out of the action and falls to the ground.
polymorpheous
12-03-12, 00:07
I found out later that the cotton will not cause a malf, it just blows right out of the action and falls to the ground.
Wanna bet?
You got a foreign body lodged inside the carrier key.
That's a pretty critical component to the operation of the rifle.
Try it at home with your own rifle once.
I have seen two carrier keys that had the heads of cotton tips that broke off inside them. They won't just blow out because the gas enters the key from the front and the hole that vents into the carrier body is smaller.
It will completely clog up and you will have to fish it out piece by piece with a dental pick or hook.
After shooting I check for anything in the action that might get in the way of proper functioning... carbon, sand, bits of brass, primers, etc... Then I make sure it's lubed enough to prevent binding or corrosion.
I do snake the bore every now and then, but don't actually 'clean' the bore after shooting as I don't want to mess up my zero.
The main reason I don't clean my AR's much is that they will just get dirty again.
When I do thoroughly clean and inspect them, every year or so, it's with spray cleaner as Lew suggests, and I am big on using an air compressor to blast particles out, dry things off, evenly spread the lube. I'm a Paslode tool repair person, and this is how I clean air/gas tools I work on.
I was in the Army during the 'wear OD, eat from cans, drive jeeps' era, and we WAY over cleaned our M16 A1's. I got a Q-Tip end stuck inside the gas key one day and said "Oh crap I got a Q-Tip stuck in there" too loud and was overheard by a DI... spent 1/2 hour in the FLR position while he got an allen wrench and got the cotton out.
I found out later that the cotton will not cause a malf, it just blows right out of the action and falls to the ground.
By "spray," I mean non chrlorinated brake cleaner.c I'll put my 5.45 with 24k rounds up against your meticulously maintained rifle and my 5.45 won't look any worse for the wear. WITH corrosive ammo being the main diet for the 5.45.
Just because you prefer to spray out your gun with brake cleaner and think that certain steps are unnecessary or a waste of time, does not mean that other means of maintenance are harmful to the weapon system, or that your method is the only one.
It's not the cleaning that ruins the weapon, it's the methods being employed; steel wool, scraping with screwdrivers or knives, attaching cleaning rods to drills etc.
And if people want to clean their weapons more frequently than others, why belittle them? Personally, I think the whole subject has gone from "see what abuse the AR can take as long as you lube it" to "you are only cool if your AR is dirty as ****".....
Littlelebowski
12-03-12, 06:08
Oh christ, arctic. Who was belittled? Is bullying going on? We can't have a discussion without accusations of bullying? Who has hurt feelings here?
sinlesssorrow, I honestly think you're wasting your time with cleaning the gas tube and the CAT tool. If you like it, rock on but it's not necessary.
Well, your "Sigh" post on the previous page comes off as belittling. Didn't contribute much, at least.
I am not saying peoples feelings got hurt, just pointing out the tendency to make derogatory remarks towards the people who don't follow a certain maintenance mindset.
Littlelebowski
12-03-12, 06:32
Well, your "Sigh" post on the previous page comes off as belittling. Didn't contribute much, at least.
I am not saying peoples feelings got hurt, just pointing out the tendency to make derogatory remarks towards the people who don't follow a certain maintenance mindset.
Fair enough, it didn't add anything and you're right.
Just for the record brake cleaner followed by compressed air and lubrication air is the cats ass. So simple and fast.
sinlessorrow
12-03-12, 07:28
Oh christ, arctic. Who was belittled? Is bullying going on? We can't have a discussion without accusations of bullying? Who has hurt feelings here?
sinlesssorrow, I honestly think you're wasting your time with cleaning the gas tube and the CAT tool. If you like it, rock on but it's not necessary.
NP man its all good. The gas tube part and the Cat tool are def steps not needed, its just one of the things I like to make sure get wiped out.:agree:
Littlelebowski
12-03-12, 07:50
Just for the record brake cleaner followed by compressed air and lubrication air is the cats ass. So simple and fast.
I know, I know. It COULD be easier but folks like the hard way. As the song says....
And you still can hear me singin' to the people who don't listen,
To the things that I am sayin', prayin' someone's gonna hear.
And I guess I'll die explaining how the things that they complain about,
Are things they could be changin', hopin' someone's gonna care.
15-20 minutes to clean your AR after every time you use it is ridiculous. Sure, if I were in the sandbox or other rough conditions then I'd be cleaning on a daily basis but otherwise... I mean, really? Even when I do clean it on a rare basis, I just wipe down the BCG and lube it up again. If needed then I'll wipe the inside of my receiver and chamber real quickly. Takes me all of 15-20 SECONDS.
Why would you need to clean the barrel after every use?? Makes no sense to me.
People are so obsessive about cleaning their guns it is border lining on over cleaning.
sinlessorrow
12-03-12, 08:32
15-20 minutes to clean your AR after every time you use it is ridiculous. Sure, if I were in the sandbox or other rough conditions then I'd be cleaning on a daily basis but otherwise... I mean, really? Even when I do clean it on a rare basis, I just wipe down the BCG and lube it up again. If needed then I'll wipe the inside of my receiver and chamber real quickly. Takes me all of 15-20 SECONDS.
Why would you need to clean the barrel after every use?? Makes no sense to me.
People are so obsessive about cleaning their guns it is border lining on over cleaning.
Because I only shoot once a month and generally put 1000-1500 rounds through it in that day. It is also my HD gun so I like to be able to have it clean(not overly, I do not scrape anything) in order to check for things that may need replacing, it also makes me feel more secure it will always work.
I feel like 15 minutes is well worth it.
Littlelebowski
12-03-12, 08:55
Because I only shoot once a month and generally put 1000-1500 rounds through it in that day. It is also my HD gun so I like to be able to have it clean(not overly, I do not scrape anything) in order to check for things that may need replacing, it also makes me feel more secure it will always work.
I feel like 15 minutes is well worth it.
I guarantee your weapon would be cleaner by spraying it out. You just can't reach the nooks and crannies that the spray can.
I'd suggest bumping up the cleaning schedule. Every 500 is better than every range session. Every 1k is better and not abuse. If you think that's "abuse," you need to learn more about this weapon platform.
sinlessorrow
12-03-12, 09:01
I guarantee your weapon would be cleaner by spraying it out. You just can't reach the nooks and crannies that the spray can.
I'd suggest bumping up the cleaning schedule. Every 500 is better than every range session. Every 1k is better and not abuse. If you think that's "abuse," you need to learn more about this weapon platform.
Huh? Mind making that a bit more understandable?
Littlelebowski
12-03-12, 09:07
Huh? Mind making that a bit more understandable?
Spray out with the non chlorinated brake cleaner outdoors. Clean every 500 or better yet, 1k rounds. I was pointing out that the spray will reach nooks and crannies that you cannot physically reach or mop out.
I know your method works for you. Just discussing.
Can someone define what over-cleaning is? Is it cleaning it after every range trip, or using stupid methods to clean it or what?
And like I have stated several times in threads like these, I am meticulous for a reason; my gun is my life. I try to remove as many variables as I can to ensure that it goes bang every time. My advice for people who carry a gun for a living, or plan on using it for self-defence or the defence of their family members, is to make sure that your gun is in proper working order, by maintaining it properly.
For me, I take pride in maintaining my gear; weapons, load bearing gear, sustainment gear etc. I clean my weapon, I clean my LBE and get all dirt and debris out of the pouches etc. I air out my sleeping bag, dry out my sleeping mat etc. Wash my uniforms. By doing this routine I am constantly aware of the status of my gear. It has nothing to do with being obsessive.
I am not arguing the fact that the gun can go a long way without being cleaned, just properly lubed. I still feel that the whole thing has been blown out of proportion, and that it has turned into a competition about whose gun is the dirtiest. Even Pat Rogers, who sort of started this thing, did it to see if the "myth" was true, or debunk it if you will. Based on his findings, he decided to stop cleaning his guns. However, he also clearly states that if he carried a gun for a living, he would use a different maintenance approach.
Case in point, I would never have taken a gun that looked like the one pictured a page or so back, in to combat. I would also seriously question the discipline and professionalism of a soldier whose weapon looked like that (not saying anything about the owner of said weapon, just using it as an example).
Also, I do not understand the time argument. Are people really that busy that they cannot spend 15-20 minutes after the range session to clean their guns?
Re the brake cleaner, not everyone is allowed to use it. Not doubting that it is effective, but it's not an option for me personally.
Littlelebowski
12-03-12, 09:51
I'm not starting a "whose is dirtiest" competition, I'm just saying you don't have to obsessively clean all of the time. I'm saying you don't have to change the oil every 3k miles; that technology has changed and so has knowlege. You can got 5-7k miles between oil changes and you don't have to baby your modern rifle that is set up properly.
Stupid stuff ala
http://i54.tinypic.com/2dmfklg.jpg
Removing the optic to clean under it
Removing the FCG
Shoving pipe cleaners and other crap down the gas tube
Scraping the Bolt tail endlessly
sinlessorrow
12-03-12, 10:14
@Arctic1, I view overcleaning as using stupid meathods to scrape away stupid things that do not need to be scraped spotless. As well as spending 1+ hours cleaning your gun to that spotless no carbon left status.
I'm just saying you don't have to obsessively clean all of the time. I'm saying you don't have to change the oil every 3k miles; that technology has changed and so has knowlege. You can got 5-7k miles between oil changes and you don't have to baby your modern rifle that is set up properly.
Depends on the perspective, doesn't it? From my perspective, my maintenance routine isn't obsessive or baby'ing my rifle.
I have seen what happens when people take short-cuts in regards to weapon maintenance, both in training and combat, and the outcome can be tragic.
Maybe not relevant if all the shooter does is punch holes in paper, but it certainly has colored my view on the issue.
Littlelebowski
12-03-12, 10:42
There's plenty of people with combat experience that would disagree with you regarding so much cleaning. I know I got sick and tired of cleaning for cleaning's sake in the Corps.
You can say you clean because you like to and that's fine; pride, etc. But there is such a thing as overdoing it.
I was a happy man the day I learned about n/c brake cleaner for cleaning the rifles.
Brake cleaner seems to work so well in fact that I rarely feel the need (might be in ignorance) to use anything else on my bore and barrel. The blue muzzle attachment I am left with when finished seems to indicate I am removing quite a bit of fouling.
I appreciate the time saved, no question.
After the brake cleaner, I squirt a little CLP in to the barrel and then pull a bore snake through once or twice. I don't know that it is necessary, but it makes me feel better.
I won't argue with any one about how often they clean their rifle but I do suggest at least inspecting it regularly. When you remove the BCG to lube it thoroughly it can't hurt to visually inspect the BCG.
Check your gas rings, verify your carrier key is secure, make sure every thing looks normal.
Opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. I personally find it interesting to hear all the different methods, and I will try some of them myself and see what I think. In the end, I no longer have to please anyone other than myself when it comes to what I consider a clean rifle. Sometimes I don't have time for much, and other times I find it theraputic, so I'm glad to have a wide range of methods. Since I just bought a 'good' rifle (LE6940P) and am about to order some NFA items, I appreciate the views.
Things I learned from this thread (you are never too old or too smart to learn something new):
1. Don't use a drill (Duh, but I knew this already)
2. Scrub bore in one direction (of bullet travel - didn't know this)
3. Brake cleaner can be your best friend (have to try this out)
4. Keep it well-lubed as that, in of itself, can overcome a dirty rifle to some degree
5. If you want to be a neat freak, while not 100% necessary, go right ahead there are others with your 'condition' :)
Like I said, I came from the 'q-tip generation'. I shot about 400 rds last weekend, and I've felt guilty all week because I have't cleaned yet (shame on me) :lazy2:
Doc. Holiday
12-03-12, 11:55
I've also been told if you are liking the way your rifle is shooting, then don't worry about the copper build up because that's what is helping you get the results that you are liking. Just clean the carbon out and you should be gtg. Anyone heard otherwise?
Littlelebowski
12-03-12, 11:56
I've also been told if you are liking the way your rifle is shooting, then don't worry about the copper build up because that's what is helping you get the results that you are liking. Just clean the carbon out and you should be gtg. Anyone heard otherwise?
You were told correctly. Clean the barrel when groups open up or just do a few patches every 1k rounds or so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc. Holiday
I've also been told if you are liking the way your rifle is shooting, then don't worry about the copper build up because that's what is helping you get the results that you are liking. Just clean the carbon out and you should be gtg. Anyone heard otherwise
In addition to that bit of advice, I wouldn't get too excited about getting all of the powder fouling out of the barrel until the groups open up. I clean the barrel, just not squeaky clean.
Doc. Holiday
12-03-12, 12:21
Awesome. I've been following that advice and it's been great. I just wanted to double to to make sure I wasn't doing any damage to anything.
trackmagic
12-03-12, 12:42
Opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. I personally find it interesting to hear all the different methods, and I will try some of them myself and see what I think. In the end, I no longer have to please anyone other than myself when it comes to what I consider a clean rifle. Sometimes I don't have time for much, and other times I find it theraputic, so I'm glad to have a wide range of methods. Since I just bought a 'good' rifle (LE6940P) and am about to order some NFA items, I appreciate the views.
Things I learned from this thread (you are never too old or too smart to learn something new):
1. Don't use a drill (Duh, but I knew this already)
2. Scrub bore in one direction (of bullet travel - didn't know this)
3. Brake cleaner can be your best friend (have to try this out)
4. Keep it well-lubed as that, in of itself, can overcome a dirty rifle to some degree
5. If you want to be a neat freak, while not 100% necessary, go right ahead there are others with your 'condition' :)
Like I said, I came from the 'q-tip generation'. I shot about 400 rds last weekend, and I've felt guilty all week because I have't cleaned yet (shame on me) :lazy2:
I just read through this again because I was interested why to only clean the bore in one direction. I was not able to find it (probably my ADD kicking in). What was the reason for this?
Doc. Holiday
12-03-12, 12:44
You can ruin your rifling.
Littlelebowski
12-03-12, 12:44
I just read through this again because I was interested why to only clean the bore in one direction. I was not able to find it (probably my ADD kicking in). What was the reason for this?
Basically, some folks have found evidence of wear to the crown from reversing direction and/or starting from the muzzle. Which is why I like foaming borecleaners. No work :D
I had found this interesting (from Noveske)
http://noveskerifleworks.com/impdf/barrelcare.pdf
Littlelebowski
12-03-12, 12:48
The KG stuff is awesome. However, I'm going to foaming cleaners.
http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2012/01/scientific-bore-cleaning-test.html
Doc. Holiday
12-03-12, 12:58
Cool test! Simple, but good!
The problem, I think, for those of us who advocate a more rigid cleaning regimen, is that it is automatically assumed that we go into every nook and cranny of the gun, and that we use copper remover etc to remove all build up in the barrel. I sure as hell don't. The only reason I remove most of the carbon is to prevent it from trapping moisture, potentially resulting in corrosion.
And I have seen modern, well set up guns have complete trigger assemblies rusted, barrels rusted, flash hiders rusted etc, due to lax maintenance standards. All because they were just put back in storage after a winter exercise, with a lot of trapped moisture, and not maintained.
And using a copper/bronze brush coated with CLP, running it through the bore a few times in the direction the bullet travels will not wear it out.
Re combat, I did not say I had the one and only definitive perspective. I explained why my perspective is what it is. And, as I have said previously, carbon fouling is a minor part of what can get into a weapon system in the field. But if carbon is your only "enemy", then go ahead and just apply lube...if that's your preferred approach.
Littlelebowski
12-03-12, 13:07
One of my enemies is not having free time to waste on cleaning every time I shoot. I'm confident that following recommended replacement intervals and adding lube plus cleaning at sane intervals gives me a weapon that functions and looks just as good as any other.
I've done the q-tip thing. The day I sloshed oil from the dipstick of my LAV-25 onto my fireteam's weapons was the day I learned that the military (back then) had some misguided priorities regarding weapons cleaning. Weapons ran great dirty, better than spotless clean with a "light coat of CLP" as the manual says.
Basically, some folks have found evidence of wear to the crown from reversing direction and/or starting from the muzzle.......
I have to agree with this. I wrecked the barrel crown on one of my rifles by using a U.S. GI steel cleaning rod before I knew any better. At first I did not know why my accuracy dropped off. You could not tell by looking at the crown without the use of a magnifying glass, but under magnification I could tell I caused uneven wear on the crown.
No matter what cleaning regimen you use, you need to be careful around the barrel crown.
One of my enemies is not having free time to waste on cleaning every time I shoot. I'm confident that following recommended replacement intervals and adding lube plus cleaning at sane intervals gives me a weapon that functions and looks just as good as any other.
I've done the q-tip thing. The day I sloshed oil from the dipstick of my LAV-25 onto my fireteam's weapons was the day I learned that the military (back then) had some misguided priorities regarding weapons cleaning. Weapons ran great dirty, better than spotless clean with a "light coat of CLP" as the manual says.
I agree that cleaning the gun for cleanliness' sake is retarded. There are more important benefits to proper maintenance. And that a dirty gun runs better than a clean gun....well, I cannot agree with that statement at all.
theblackknight
12-03-12, 13:55
In addition to the normal spray can bath and lube, I put a drop on grease where the trigger bar and hammer bump uglies.
Lube keeps carbon crap suspended so when you do clean, its easy.
"I prob shouldnt do this, but I hate that springy sound in my buffer tube"- Paul Howe, while slathering his buffer spring with TB25.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
I have to agree with this. I wrecked the barrel crown on one of my rifles by using a U.S. GI steel cleaning rod before I knew any better. At first I did not know why my accuracy dropped off. You could not tell by looking at the crown without the use of a magnifying glass, but under magnification I could tell I caused uneven wear on the crown.
No matter what cleaning regimen you use, you need to be careful around the barrel crown.
You know, I have always pulled the rod/brush back through the barrel with out unscrewing the brush/jag/swab. I just never thought about it until now. I have never noticed a decrees in accuracy. I guess I will start unscrewing the attachment after it protrudes from the muzzle to pull the rod back through. If my crown is damaged do you think it's something I could see with the naked eye?
If you own an AR you can apply any maintenance standard you come up with. If you have an AR issued, you'll probably have to toe the party line.
Not everyone in the military is switched on when it comes to weapons, and 'spotlessly clean' is an easy standard to identify and enforce.
Field conditions can be worse than anything a square range can offer. I've had debris on the inside of my weapons such as vegetation, mud, and sand, etc. More than a few times I've seen mud in barrels from people falling down. A bore snake won't be able to get the mud out of a barrel so you can't discount a cleaning rod altogether.
Suwannee Tim
12-03-12, 19:23
I have to agree with this. I wrecked the barrel crown on one of my rifles by using a U.S. GI steel cleaning rod before I knew any better. At first I did not know why my accuracy dropped off. You could not tell by looking at the crown without the use of a magnifying glass, but under magnification I could tell I caused uneven wear on the crown.
No matter what cleaning regimen you use, you need to be careful around the barrel crown.
One of the old, old men I shoot with has a semi-automatic BAR, the military kind. He paid two or three or four thousand dollars, I don't remember. I shot it, it's a heck of a piece for nostalgia. Later he was cleaning it, from the muzzle as you must with this gun. With an old Hoppe's rod, jointed, aluminum, bent, shoving it down the bore. I almost cried.
He shows up a couple of times a month on a Friday, every time wearing a different hat. A French Foreign Legion hat one day, a Dutch Army Engineer's hat the next, Bundeswehr, Japan SDF hat, Swedish hat of some kind, Indian Navy, every one with an interesting story of how he got it.
[QUOTE=Littlelebowski;1458677]One of my enemies is not having free time to waste on cleaning every time I shoot. I'm confident that following recommended replacement intervals...
Where might one find a list of 'recommended replacement intervals' if you know? Thanks!
Littlelebowski
12-03-12, 20:27
I agree that cleaning the gun for cleanliness' sake is retarded. There are more important benefits to proper maintenance. And that a dirty gun runs better than a clean gun....well, I cannot agree with that statement at all.
You don't understand what I said with regards to comparing a dirty, heavily lubed weapon to a clean, barely lubed weapon.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
As an armorer I tend to clean and inspect in a very detailed manner. I do this out of knowledge not ignorance. The weapon needs to work if called on. If it will run for 10,000 thousand rounds between cleanings then mine will run for 10,000 every time I pick it up, not 2,000 more.
My partner in the armory is a former Marine (much respect) and he spends triple the amount of time cleaning any given gun as I do.
I think he is too extreme even for guns that go to work.
Littlelebowski
12-03-12, 22:06
My partner in the armory is a former Marine (much respect) and he spends triple the amount of time cleaning any given gun as I do.
I think he is too extreme even for guns that go to work.
Agreed and I've got 8 years as a Marine. Tell him his DIs were not the end all, be all for weapons.
http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ppppp_desktop_px_2-tm-tfb.jpg
It's great that the weapon system can run like this, but sensable cleaning ( note I said sensable :) is always a good idea if you have the downtime. It really doesnt take that long to once over a weapon.......
Man, that is messed up
Doc. Holiday
12-04-12, 09:29
I know, it makes me cringe every time I see that pic...
That ain't dirty...THIS (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68486&page=1) is Ol' Dirty!
As of Jan 2012, it had been at least 9 yrs since it was cleaned, and is still running strong. Over 16K rounds downrange so far.
Im torn about this topic. As a Marine in conditioned to have my weapon clean and ready. As a combat Marine I always remember Murphys Law of Combat. "No combat ready unit ever passed inspection"
Suwannee Tim
12-04-12, 10:32
....... "No combat ready unit ever passed inspection"
That's funny. No doubt true. Like the Navy's ORSE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_Reactor_Safeguard_Examination), a painstaking, nitpicking inspection of a power reactor. Captains get promoted or not based on the ORSE which has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with combat readiness, leadership ability or any other valuable attribute of a warrior leader.
Littlelebowski
12-04-12, 10:45
Im torn about this topic. As a Marine in conditioned to have my weapon clean and ready. As a combat Marine I always remember Murphys Law of Combat. "No combat ready unit ever passed inspection"
Just let go, dude. I did and it was a great decision.
Just let go, dude. I did and it was a great decision.
"Just let go" great line from a great movie
Im torn about this topic. As a Marine in conditioned to have my weapon clean and ready. As a combat Marine I always remember Murphys Law of Combat. "No combat ready unit ever passed inspection"
How true.
Just let go, dude. I did and it was a great decision.
Ok, a quick question.
How would you enforce a standard like this in your fire team/squad/platoon as a fire team leader, squad leader or platoon leader? How can you make sure that proper PCCs and PCIs have been carried out?
I have served at all those levels, and when it is my responsibility to keep my men safe, as well as complete the mission, I take every measure possible to make sure that everything from personal weapons, load bearing gear, mission essential gear is good to go. I'm not talking about a white-glove, q-tip-remove-every-grain-of-carbon maintenance approach.
Again, the devil is in the details, and improper maintenance can lead to a stuck case, for example, and cause a failure to extract, rendering the weapon inoperable until the malfunction has been cleared. If that happens at a critical time during MOUT, for example, it could well lead to that soldier, and others, to be either wounded or killed.
I am going to do my best to make sure mye guys are as capable as possible, and part of that is maintaining gear. And I also make sure that the equipment is maintained properly, according to the correct practices for each particular weapon system, to avoid excessive wear due to improper maintenance.
You don't understand what I said with regards to comparing a dirty, heavily lubed weapon to a clean, barely lubed weapon.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
Was that a statement or a question? I might have misunderstood what you wrote, by all means.
I don't subscribe to the light coat of lube approach either, but I don't see anyone advocating that approach? And again, the mindset is very carbon-centric. That is not the only foreign matter that can get inside the weapon. Moisture, small pieces of foliage, rocks etc all find their way inside the gun when we are out on operations, low crawling, bounding etc. If the approach to weapon maintenance is based on round counts and just-add-lube, the potential for problems increases in my opinion.
That's funny. No doubt true. Like the Navy's ORSE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_Reactor_Safeguard_Examination), a painstaking, nitpicking inspection of a power reactor. Captains get promoted or not based on the ORSE which has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with combat readiness, leadership ability or any other valuable attribute of a warrior leader.
Are you comparing the two, to the effect that you are saying that making sure mission essential gear and personal equipement and weapons are in proper working order (PCC/PCI) has nothing to do with combat readyness? That it is not showing leadership ability or the attributes of a warrior leader?
"No combat ready unit ever passed inspection"
That rule is retarded anyways, as I perform inspections before, during and after operations. I think people apply that rule to the incorrect situations.
Littlelebowski
12-04-12, 11:47
Was that a statement or a question? I might have misunderstood what you wrote, by all means.
I don't subscribe to the light coat of lube approach either, but I don't see anyone advocating that approach? And again, the mindset is very carbon-centric. That is not the only foreign matter that can get inside the weapon. Moisture, small pieces of foliage, rocks etc all find their way inside the gun when we are out on operations, low crawling, bounding etc. If the approach to weapon maintenance is based on round counts and just-add-lube, the potential for problems increases in my opinion.
When I was in (Marine infantry, 95-04), a light coat of CLP was religiously taught as all that you apply. Agreed on visual inspections for fouling/debris.
Littlelebowski
12-04-12, 11:51
Ok, a quick question.
How would you enforce a standard like this in your fire team/squad/platoon as a fire team leader, squad leader or platoon leader? How can you make sure that proper PCCs and PCIs have been carried out?
I have served at all those levels, and when it is my responsibility to keep my men safe, as well as complete the mission, I take every measure possible to make sure that everything from personal weapons, load bearing gear, mission essential gear is good to go. I'm not talking about a white-glove, q-tip-remove-every-grain-of-carbon maintenance approach.
Again, the devil is in the details, and improper maintenance can lead to a stuck case, for example, and cause a failure to extract, rendering the weapon inoperable until the malfunction has been cleared. If that happens at a critical time during MOUT, for example, it could well lead to that soldier, and others, to be either wounded or killed.
I am going to do my best to make sure mye guys are as capable as possible, and part of that is maintaining gear. And I also make sure that the equipment is maintained properly, according to the correct practices for each particular weapon system, to avoid excessive wear due to improper maintenance.
I'd do what I did; follow orders from on high to clean but dial it way down. No metal on metal scraping, lots of lube, set amount of patching, and I'd be doing things like gas ring checks though our armorer would theoretically be doing this (doubt it). I think you and I are pretty much agreeing at this point regarding white glove, Mickey Mouse bullshit.
Lockup1109
12-04-12, 18:08
Clean? 2000 round weekend class dropped in sandy silt like dirt right on ejection port sand got into lower. Ran all class not one stoppage.
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag124/jringe1109/D8DE7114-2791-4E8B-BAA5-859E66E72A21-10406-00000C35F009859B_zps5e85aa84.jpg
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag124/jringe1109/D6C1725B-0644-404B-B7A2-B7E2C77E910B-10406-00000C3685365CFF_zpsb7fdc9b0.jpg
Clean? 2000 round weekend class dropped in sandy silt like dirt right on ejection port sand got into lower. Ran all class not one stoppage.
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag124/jringe1109/D8DE7114-2791-4E8B-BAA5-859E66E72A21-10406-00000C35F009859B_zps5e85aa84.jpg
http://i1302.photobucket.com/albums/ag124/jringe1109/D6C1725B-0644-404B-B7A2-B7E2C77E910B-10406-00000C3685365CFF_zpsb7fdc9b0.jpg
Now, THAT's Impressive..
Lockup1109
12-04-12, 19:47
The gun fell down a hill with the mag out bolt closed. Tons of sand in the magwell and on the bottom of the bolt. Shook out what i could slammed in a mag, charged the weapon and continued the class. Added a bit of CLP (its what was available at the time) and had not one single malfunction.
Man....That is nasty................still runs like a charm...............
Clean? 2000 round weekend class dropped in sandy silt like dirt right on ejection port sand got into lower. Ran all class not one stoppage.
Well.....so?
The extreme dust test that is brought up now and again, clearly shows that the platform can endure extreme environements. It does however increase the likelyhood of malfunctions, as well as increased wear on parts.
Just because the tolerances are there, for extreme situations, does not equal that it is recommended or neccessarily smart to do it.
If that was my gun, I would have cleaned it before I continued shooting.
Littlelebowski
12-05-12, 06:24
Well.....so?
If that was my gun, I would have cleaned it before I continued shooting.
And missed a drill/training? I'd say this built confidence.
I would have finished the drill, then sat the next drill out to remove most of it. He did not specify when it was dropped, if it was between drills or during.
Build confidence? Was there a lack of confidence? Again, I have no doubt that the weapon system can endure being run dirty and sandy etc. I have never said so. It does however not equal that it is a smart thing to do, or that it is a recommended practice. They determine reliability thresholds during testing, it should not be neccessary for the user to test it.
If the gun couldn't handle these extreme situations, I would start asking questions about how reliable the weapon was.
Missing out on one drill isn't very detrimental to training, as opposed to the weapon maybe being rendered inoperable and missing all the training. It worked out well in this case, but it might not during a time of real need.
Littlelebowski
12-05-12, 07:07
Well, rock on then. Our minds will never meet on this subject and that's fine.
Well.....so?
The extreme dust test that is brought up now and again, clearly shows that the platform can endure extreme environements. It does however increase the likelyhood of malfunctions, as well as increased wear on parts.
Just because the tolerances are there, for extreme situations, does not equal that it is recommended or neccessarily smart to do it.
If that was my gun, I would have cleaned it before I continued shooting.
Arctic1 what many fail to realize is that cleaning any piece of equipment is not just about cleaning but about inspecting i.e. preventive maintenance. Army trucks and weapons can all run without cleaning but we clean and wash them so we can inspect them. Inspection is the main reason we should clean our weapons.
Personally I'd rather push the limits and have it fail in training or while out shooting. That way when a situation dictates the need for the rifle in the future I'll know what it can and cannot do. I just "cleaned" my AR for the first time since it's initial cleaning some 3500 rounds ago. Was running perfectly fine even being as dirty as it was from all of this wonderful AZ sand/dust. As a routine before every time I shoot I inspect the chamber and bore and run patch and solvent every 1000 rounds or so. Quick glance of the FCG(lube if needed)and BCG(lube if needed). I only decided to clean it because I was doing a full teardown and clean of my 1911 and thought why not. My girlfriends father always gives me shit for not cleaning it evey time I shoot it.
As they say....to each his own.
I certainly won't chastise anyone for their choice of cleaning or non-cleaning of a weapon system. I have my routine that I find works for me while others may vary.
Would you pour a handful of sand inside the upper and lower receiver before going out to the range, or on a mission?
Arctic1 what many fail to realize is that cleaning any piece of equipment is not just about cleaning but about inspecting i.e. preventive maintenance. Army trucks and weapons can all run without cleaning but we clean and wash them so we can inspect them. Inspection is the main reason we should clean our weapons.
I agree, and I don't advocate cleaning for cleanliness' sake. It is also a very good inspection tool to have weapons cleaned, as it makes it easy to see who has taken care of their weapon and who hasn't.
Would you pour a handful of sand inside the upper and lower receiver before going out to the range, or on a mission?
I certainly would not. Having a my rifle get dirty from use is far different then grabbing a handful of sand and pouring it into the mechanical workings of the firearm.
I certainly would not. Having a my rifle get dirty from use is far different then grabbing a handful of sand and pouring it into the mechanical workings of the firearm.
How is it different, aside from the method of getting it into the mechanism? The effect is the same....
Littlelebowski
12-05-12, 09:31
I'm out, hate religious debates.
How is it different, aside from the method of getting it into the mechanism? The effect is the same....
As I said, I do an inspection before I even slap a mag in my rifle. If it had got to the point of "excessive" dirt/crap I would catch it then and clean as needed. If somebody wants to literally pick up dirt and throw it inside their rifle I say go for it. You just wouldn't see me do it. When I say I cleaned my rifle for the first time I should clarify that it was the first time I tore it totally apart and a solvent of some sort was used on everything. During a normal inspection I would wipe parts down with a cloth/towel as to facilitate the actual inpsection process. So for arguments sake you could say I "cleaned" my rifle before each use.
A few pics of what can happen from neglecting to properly maintain your firearm. These are pictures of two different guns, put in the arms room after ending a watch shift, with the soldiers going on leave immediatly after. A tiny bit of moisture present resulted in this, two weeks after:
Weapon 1:
http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6181/bilde5.jpg
http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/3623/bilde3x.jpg
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/6679/bilde4.JPG
Weapon 2:
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/231/bilde2a.jpg
http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/1496/bilde1p.jpg
I would quickly flush the sand before continued unless my life was in danger...:secret:
Well.....so?
The extreme dust test that is brought up now and again, clearly shows that the platform can endure extreme environements. It does however increase the likelyhood of malfunctions, as well as increased wear on parts.
Just because the tolerances are there, for extreme situations, does not equal that it is recommended or neccessarily smart to do it.
If that was my gun, I would have cleaned it before I continued shooting.
Heavy Metal
12-05-12, 10:16
Well.....so?
The extreme dust test that is brought up now and again, clearly shows that the platform can endure extreme environements. It does however increase the likelyhood of malfunctions, as well as increased wear on parts.
Just because the tolerances are there, for extreme situations, does not equal that it is recommended or neccessarily smart to do it.
If that was my gun, I would have cleaned it before I continued shooting.
Clearances.
StealthscrapE
12-05-12, 10:27
Great info in here. Appreciate everyone throwing out their cleaning regimens and such. Coming from a military background, a lot of this was news to me. Will definitely be applying (or at least attempting) some new techniques learned here.
Couple of questions.
1.For those of you who advocate a few patches every 1k rounds or a full clean somewhere in the 1k-3k round range; do you have a time period as well? I know most of you probably go through that amount in a somewhat short amount of time, but my personal rifle doesn't get that much playtime, unfortunately. Seeing as I'm gone over yonder 50% of the year, should I apply the same standards as say, a car with an oil change (3k miles OR 6 months/whatever)? If I'm not getting that many rounds through in a year, should I do a cleaning every year then, or would you stick to a round count and lube?
2. (sorry to bring this way off topic and out of the AR realm) Would you do the same for other firearms? My 1911 gets a good clean every time it gets used. Are these cleaning and lubrication procedures specific to the AR world, or do they transfer over into the 1911s and other handguns and other firearms as well?
Thanks again.
Clearances.
As opposed to tolerances?
Heavy Metal
12-05-12, 10:41
As opposed to tolerances?
Tolerances are a manufacturing term describing the precision of the process.
Clearances describe intentional spacing between components.
Loose clearances can be good, loose tolerances are always bad.
A bolt with loose tolerances can = a kaboom for example.
lawusmc0844
12-05-12, 15:52
I used to believe the BS the Marine Corps taught me about weapons maintenance until reading Pat Roger's article and actually shooting my own rifles. Now I only clean after at least 1K+ rds or if Im not going to be shooting for a while (like now currently deployed) When I do clean, I spray lots of CLP, let it sit for a minute or two, wipe away all the gunk buildup with a rag, wipe the inside of the upper and lowers, and relube with Frog Lube and Slip 2000 in a few areas. The outside of the rifle gets a quick wipedown and the barrel and muzzle device is always recoated with a thin coat of CLP.
I make it a point to educate my Marines that their overzealous cleaning methods and white glove horseshit from their DIs is retarded. Those that have a strange adversion to using lube, I simply ask them "Do you drive your car dry of oil too??" or explain to them what happens when metal rubs on metal without lubricant. One of my good buddies that is a DI down at MCRD called me while I was at a low light course and asked me for an extra crush washer since they had to clean underneath the flash hider before an Bn Cmdr's inspection :rolleyes: He is locked on though, too bad institutional stupidity is strong down there.
Seeing the majority of our M16A4s with shiny barrels makes me a sad panda. I make sure their bolts are well lubed and to have a light coat on their shiny barrels to keep them from rusting.
I've never had a malfunction with either my issued or personal rifles throughout the years attributed to a dirty, "gunked up" action, all have been from bad mags (mostly beat up USGI) or a lack of lube. (CLP of course needs to be used in higher quantities, but I mainly use Frog Lube or Slip 2000 these days)
I recently went out and bought a 3x3 fiberglass box and filled it with motor oil. I have just been dropping the entire rifle in it before i go shooting like Larry vickers said to do on his show.
Just kidding
ApexAchilles
12-05-12, 17:48
Didn't you hear, lube attracts sand and dust.
God I hate that line.
StealthscrapE
Couple of questions.
1.For those of you who advocate a few patches every 1k rounds or a full clean somewhere in the 1k-3k round range; do you have a time period as well? I know most of you probably go through that amount in a somewhat short amount of time, but my personal rifle doesn't get that much playtime, unfortunately. Seeing as I'm gone over yonder 50% of the year, should I apply the same standards as say, a car with an oil change (3k miles OR 6 months/whatever)? If I'm not getting that many rounds through in a year, should I do a cleaning every year then, or would you stick to a round count and lube?
If it's just sitting in a safe I wouldn't clean it, but I would look at it every once in a while to see if it needs some fresh lube as some products dry out sooner than others. I clean and lube my carry guns once a month.
2. (sorry to bring this way off topic and out of the AR realm) Would you do the same for other firearms? My 1911 gets a good clean every time it gets used. Are these cleaning and lubrication procedures specific to the AR world, or do they transfer over into the 1911s and other handguns and other firearms as well?
For my 1911, after shooting I lock the slide back and clean what I can reach, then lube it. I take it apart to clean it after every 500 to 700 rounds. I replace springs much more frequently than I have in any other guns.
I recently overheard a soldier telling his buddies how good of an M2 gunner he is and his TTP was 'don't lube it until you're in contact with the enemy, fire 15-20 rounds, and then lube it'. Good luck with that.
Didn't you hear, lube attracts sand and dust.
God I hate that line.
Lube is suppose to catch dirt & carbon. It catches it, suspends it and carries it out of the moving parts. That's why combustion engines have oil filters in their lubrication systems
Heh! Folks tell us an oiled rifle collects dust as if a dry rifle won't get dusty at all
Markasaurus
12-05-12, 23:47
I know a lot of people don't/don't want to/ignore cleaning. Especially the lower. It's your gun, treat it how you want. But really, how hard is it to hose out the lower with a can of brake fluid? Takes 20 seconds. Air dry, lube, done.
If you want to get fancy you ccan hose it out twice. Spray then scrub with a toothbrush inside the lower, then hose it out again. Surely i am not relaying something, anybody reading this doesn't already know.
If you are in a fire fight, sometimes you just literally CAN'T and AREN"T going to clean anything, your rifle is smoking, your barrel is turned red hot and maybe cooking off rounds and its all you can do to keep rounds going downrange. Obviously its good to know it will probably keep going when you can't even stop to lube.
But I'm a civilian, I have the luxury of time and not living in the dirt and being under fire. And a gun is an expensive tool and I keep them clean. If you want to treat yours like junk go right ahead. But I just don't see much sense to that.
I'm not sure the purpose of cleaning is to 100% prevent malfunction. As you guys have already proven, lube and it will run. No cleaning.
Cleaning is to get rid of the corrosive residue that will eventually eat through the anodization and react with the aluminum/steel.
After gunpowder burns it leaves nitric acid HNO3 and that is corrosive even when using non-corrosive powder (it just leaves less HNO3). Nitric acid is also used in the production of the gun powder.
Heh! Folks tell us an oiled rifle collects dust as if a dry rifle won't get dusty at all
Who tells you?
Like you say, lube will collect dust and sand. A dry rifle will also collect dust and sand, no doubt about that. The point is that folks use the "lube attracts dust and sand :rolleyes:" in an attempt to get one over the mil approach. It is totally taken out of context.
As I explained previously, it is not a big deal for a carbine/assault rifle as it is a closed system, except for the barrel. Dust in the barrel is not an issue, as it will be blown out after the first round is fired. The bore is supposed to be dry anyways. The major concern is for belt-fed weapons, where sand and dust gets into the feeding mechanism of the weapon, and on the ammo, and this can lead to issues.
That is why our practice for top covers in Afghanistan was to run the vehicle mounted weapons (M2 HMG's, MG-3's and FN-MAG's, 40mm GMG's) lightly lubed on the internal working parts, and as little lube as possible on the external parts and surfaces of the weapons. This allowed them to fire their weapons without malfunctions for the first 20-30 seconds of the fire fight, then they would douse the gun with oil, readily available in a bottle in the turret.
We would also regularly use the air compressor on our vehicles to blow off sand and dust from the guns and ammunition.
Our practices for adverse conditions are:
Arctic temps - liberal lube on the internals, liberal lube on the externals, main focus during field maintenance is removing moisture/snow/ice, cover the weapons up when not in use
Sandy, dusty environments - liberal lube on the internals, minimal lube on the externals, main focus during field maintenance is removing sand/dust/dirt. Vehicle mounted weapons are lightly lubed on the internals, but will be heavily lubed at first possible moment, cover the weapons up when not in use
Who tells you?
Too many to list. It's something I have heard all of my life, from family members, gunsmith friends, military personnel, Service Rifle shooters, Internet Gurus- I think you get the idea. Whole bunches of folks. I spent most of my childhood stomping around the Mojave Desert. Nowhere near as dusty as what our troops are experiencing. But a dry rifle always got just as dirty and dusty as an oiled one did. Somewhere, it occurred to me that a lubed rifle functioned better out there than a dry rifle. When a rifle got enough crapola in it to start affecting function, a good squirt of oil would wash away much of it and get the rifle running again. We had AR rifles, Garands, M1 carbines, M14s, AR180s, an Uzi or two and one AK that I can think of off the top of my head.
I also think it's best to remove carbon fouling to keep it from building up but that usually just takes some solvent, a bit of tooth-brushing and a few wipes with a rag to keep in check.
As far as crew served weapons, belt feds and the like, I have no experience and make no claims as to how they should be maintained. My comments do not include such weapons
A little dirt won't hurt anything.
Lockup1109
12-07-12, 14:05
To the guy who said youd sit out a drill, no i did not sit out a drill and i kept going. I always bring a spare rifle to a class. This is one of my beater guns and i really wanted to test its limits. The firearm was not full of sand inside the chamber or the barrel, obviously that would require cleaning before continued useage. Id rather test the limits of my equptment on the one way range so i know i can count on them on a two way range.
To each his own theough. Posted the pics for reference really.
Heavy Metal
12-07-12, 14:39
I'm not sure the purpose of cleaning is to 100% prevent malfunction. As you guys have already proven, lube and it will run. No cleaning.
Cleaning is to get rid of the corrosive residue that will eventually eat through the anodization and react with the aluminum/steel.
After gunpowder burns it leaves nitric acid HNO3 and that is corrosive even when using non-corrosive powder (it just leaves less HNO3). Nitric acid is also used in the production of the gun powder.
I guarentee you the HNO3 reacts with the carbon in the firing residue and gun oil long before anything else happens.
Look up Anderson Rifles. NO OIL, EVER. Clean with soap and water.
Look up Anderson Rifles. NO OIL, EVER. Clean with soap and water.
Junk.
sinlessorrow
12-07-12, 15:24
Look up Anderson Rifles. NO OIL, EVER. Clean with soap and water.
You really believe that no oil ever crap?
For anyone doubting that Anderson makes complete and utter junk, just check out this Arfcom thread (don't normally link, but...)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/520530_Anderson_Manufacturing.html
The so called "vice president of sales" was on the site acting as if he did not work for the company saying they are "one of the best" and that Anderson rifles are DoD's new "mil-spec". Yes, he was saying these things acting as if he was a satisfied customer when he is really one of the company's employees. It's so funny too because if you do a search you'll find some other forum threads where people are actually proud to own these rifles claiming that they feel "superior" to the guys at the range who are lubing their AR's. What a joke of a company and anyone who believes what that shit-bag company puts out is seriously mistaken. Do your damn research.
I clean my Glocks using soap and water. Works awesome.
In dry climates you don't need to worry about rust.
I make it a point to educate my Marines that their overzealous cleaning methods and white glove horseshit from their DIs is retarded.
Army instructors are still teaching white glove type cleaning. My son is at West Point and went through this in his basic & AIT equivalent training. Even though he knew better from his civvy M4'gery experience, you have to do what they say. The only good news is he was able to be "Forrest Gump" and have the fastest field strip & reassemble of his issue M4.
And a friend's son, years in as EOD and training/assigned to high speed units still does the dental pick scraping on the bolt. Go figure.
Suwannee Tim
12-08-12, 19:41
Are you comparing the two, to the effect that you are saying that making sure mission essential gear and personal equipement and weapons are in proper working order (PCC/PCI) has nothing to do with combat readyness? That it is not showing leadership ability or the attributes of a warrior leader?......
A perfect score on the ORSE requires the reactor spaces and contents to be in perfect condition, perfect down to the smallest detail and speck of dust which is accomplished only after two weeks or more of painstaking preparation. That has nothing to do with combat readiness, leadership ability or war fighting skill. The boat is combat ready most of the year but only ready for ORSE one day out of the year. In this case the ORSE is a proxy for the attributes needed to be a warrior leader. Compare the ORSE to the Brit's Perisher (http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/usw/issue_18/perisher.htm) school where leadership, strategy and tactics are taught and tested. My point is the Navy is focusing on an easy measure, the ORSE where an objective score is earned versus subjective and more difficult to measure attributes which I call leadership and war fighting skill. The analogy applies to a perfectly clean M16, M4 or AR. They need not be perfectly clean to work as the submarine need not be perfect in every detail to be effective.
lawusmc0844
12-08-12, 20:53
Army instructors are still teaching white glove type cleaning. My son is at West Point and went through this in his basic & AIT equivalent training. Even though he knew better from his civvy M4'gery experience, you have to do what they say. The only good news is he was able to be "Forrest Gump" and have the fastest field strip & reassemble of his issue M4.
And a friend's son, years in as EOD and training/assigned to high speed units still does the dental pick scraping on the bolt. Go figure.
Yes, training commands are great examples of institutional inertia/stupidity. If I went to boot camp/MCT with the knowledge I have now I'd probably still be a LCpl. At least when I went to the Combat Marksmanship Coach's course at Margarita, those guys are pretty locked on. All hope is not lost after all :)
Sometimes old and bad habits just won't die. At the very least you can go to the range with him and do a mini Filthy 14 like test which may be able to sway him.
Yes, training commands are great examples of institutional inertia/stupidity. If I went to boot camp/MCT with the knowledge I have now I'd probably still be a LCpl.
Yep, the last thing a West Point plebe would want to do is question his Regular Army senior NCO instructor! :) You do it *their* way.
Sometimes old and bad habits just won't die. At the very least you can go to the range with him and do a mini Filthy 14 like test which may be able to sway him.
Well down that path prior to his heading to USMA, his personal M4gery is about 2k+ of Tula & Wolf without anything more than cycling 2-3 drops of CLP in the carrier vents each outing. It's amazing how well that works. He's converted! (Not that I would recommend that for duty weapons)
But we were early adopters, I have an HK-91 that has been detail cleaned once a decade since the early 80's whether it needed it or not!
The analogy applies to a perfectly clean M16, M4 or AR. They need not be perfectly clean to work as the submarine need not be perfect in every detail to be effective.
Yes, but the context was poor. The whole "no combat ready unit ever passed inspection" thing is just bullshit. That was my point. And the completion of given tasks do require leadership and a warrior mindset. Maybe the cleaning part of the ORSE is not neccessary for operational effectiveness, but it might be neccessary to do a proper inspection. I cannot comment as I am not familiar with the process.
We have 4 quarterly inspections every year, that requires detail cleaning. That is for ease of inspection, not operational effectiveness. I don't care if cleaning patches don't come out super-white after being pulled through the barrel.
Anyways, my biggest point of contention on this issue is that some people equal lube to preventative maintenance, and that operational readiness doesn't require much. My experience is that an approach like that in combat is setting yourself up for failure. And it is transferrable to other types of equipment as well, including vehicles etc. We do specific pre mission checks, halt checks and post mission checks on vehicles. When you skip these thing, that's when shit starts to break down; forgot to check the oil, forgot to check the breaks, forgot to check coolant levels etc. Recovery operations really takes the momentum out of operations.
Suwannee Tim
12-09-12, 06:36
Yes, but the context was poor. The whole "no combat ready unit ever passed inspection" thing is just bullshit. .....
I wouldn't know having never been in the military so I'll defer to you. My guess is it depends a lot on who is doing the inspection and why.
Let me throw another analogy at you. My local Sheriff's office promotes Police and Corrections Officers based largely on a test of their detailed knowlege of general orders, city ordinances and state statutes. Guys and gals with good memories have a huge advantage though a fine memory is not necessary for the job. The test is used because it is an objective standard and easier to defend than more subjective measures of leadership ability, et cetera.
lawusmc0844
12-09-12, 17:18
Yep, the last thing a West Point plebe would want to do is question his Regular Army senior NCO instructor! :) You do it *their* way.
At least as he goes up in the ranks he can be in a position of influence to make positive changes
Well down that path prior to his heading to USMA, his personal M4gery is about 2k+ of Tula & Wolf without anything more than cycling 2-3 drops of CLP in the carrier vents each outing. It's amazing how well that works. He's converted! (Not that I would recommend that for duty weapons)
But we were early adopters, I have an HK-91 that has been detail cleaned once a decade since the early 80's whether it needed it or not!
Awesome, did a similar test with one of my personal rifles before deploying.
A mix of various ammo types from Federal, Wolf, Tula, and Hornady Steel Case. 1000 rds one day, never cleaned it just dropped a good amount of Slip 2000 or CLP. (I'll always wipe down the exterior of the rifle with baby wipes and a dry rag after a day of use.)
A week later an advanced carbine course with 500+ rds, no stoppages, reapply lube.
With pre-deployment workups that took up about a month I decided to not clean out the mess inside rifle, just drop Slip 2000 and store away just to see if I get any failures next time. So a month later, I take it out and shoot another 1000 rds in a day, no failures!
For this deployment, my job involves firing much larger weapon systems than my rifle but I still make sure the bolt is well lubed and that my Marines do the same in the case we need to use it. When I do break my M4/M203 down I make sure all the important parts are well lubed, check for any abnormalities, check mags for any cracks and make sure my RCO is still tight as my unit still doesn't have the GDI mounts for them yet.
Never had the pleasure to shoot a HK G3/91, from what I read the roller locking system gets as dirty too?
All rifles get dirty. With the fluted chambers, the HK gets a good amount of carbon in there but doesn't seem to build up. Some claim the HKs are a pain to clean, but I don't find that to be so
lawusmc0844
12-09-12, 19:20
Yes, but the context was poor. The whole "no combat ready unit ever passed inspection" thing is just bullshit. That was my point. And the completion of given tasks do require leadership and a warrior mindset. Maybe the cleaning part of the ORSE is not neccessary for operational effectiveness, but it might be neccessary to do a proper inspection. I cannot comment as I am not familiar with the process.
We have 4 quarterly inspections every year, that requires detail cleaning. That is for ease of inspection, not operational effectiveness. I don't care if cleaning patches don't come out super-white after being pulled through the barrel.
Anyways, my biggest point of contention on this issue is that some people equal lube to preventative maintenance, and that operational readiness doesn't require much. My experience is that an approach like that in combat is setting yourself up for failure. And it is transferrable to other types of equipment as well, including vehicles etc. We do specific pre mission checks, halt checks and post mission checks on vehicles. When you skip these thing, that's when shit starts to break down; forgot to check the oil, forgot to check the breaks, forgot to check coolant levels etc. Recovery operations really takes the momentum out of operations.
Yes PCCs/PCIs are important, we normally conduct PMCS to our equipment to ensure we are capable of providing fire support at anytime.
I've only seen that quote used to describe units where uniform nazi SNCOs or Officers think conducting uniform inspections before going outside the wire is more important than ensuring actual MOS proficiency. Shaving, haircuts, white socks, etc have absolutely NOTHING to do with combat readiness/proficiency.
All rifles get dirty. With the fluted chambers, the HK gets a good amount of carbon in there but doesn't seem to build up. Some claim the HKs are a pain to clean, but I don't find that to be so
I think the G3 is a pain in the ass to clean, personally. Especially the barrel extension and barrel (it would sweat badly).
...(it would sweat badly).
You mean condensation from coming on out of the cold?
This thread has stirred so many memories from the mid 80's. Ft Lewis Wa, sitting in the hallway for hours and hours cleaning weapons. Why did we have to sit in the hallway? Because so many of my fellow soldiers were absolute idiots. Example- One guy decided to use a patch meant for the M-60 barrel on his M-16. He got her halfway through.:lol:
I figured out on my own how much we wasted time back then. I also figured out on my own that break free was crap when it got cold. Some stuff called Tri-Flow(or something like that) from the px worked pretty good and when it got cold, my weapon was usually the only one working.
You mean condensation from coming on out of the cold?
No, fouling coming out of micro-pores in the barrel.
Often we would clean our weapon after having been at the range, and the patches would be completely white. When the NCO's and officers came to inspect the rifle the day after, the patch they ran through the bore was more often than not dirty. That fouling was from the micro-pores in the barrels, "sweating" during the night.
This was 12 years ago, though, during my conscript service where the focus was retard clean weapons. We had receivers and barrels that were so worn they rusted just thinking about rain. During that time people scrubbed the gun with steel wool and what not.
Our issued cleaning kit only contained a flexible cleaning rod with eyelet, nylon chamber brush and a bottle for lube. Copper/bronze brushes were not very common.
I think we stopped the whole detail cleaning regime as SOP maybe 6-7 years ago in my unit. Only for quarterly inspections.
I also figured out on my own that break free was crap when it got cold.
Why is CLP crap in the cold? Operating temp for BreakFree CLP is -75F/-59C. I've used CLP in temps ranging from -50C to +50C, without issue.
All rifles get dirty. With the fluted chambers, the HK gets a good amount of carbon in there but doesn't seem to build up. Some claim the HKs are a pain to clean, but I don't find that to be so
The fluted chamber takes a different technique to clean, but my experience is that HK produces just a tiny fraction of the carbon that AR's do, so it's just not an issue.
Mine has had a steady diet of German surplus 7.62 NATO date coded from 1959 up to the late 80's. Some of it even the slightly tarnished bulk stuff. In the 80's the surplus German stuff was cheaper than even 5.56, and we shot tons of the the stuff.
I will say that my experience you should not run the HK "wet" like an AR. It's not needed, and appears to trap & suspend more carbon that would normally get blown out with ejection. So light lube for the critical areas is what I've found works best.
The fluted chamber takes a different technique to clean, but my experience is that HK produces just a tiny fraction of the carbon that AR's do, so it's just not an issue.
Mine has had a steady diet of German surplus 7.62 NATO date coded from 1959 up to the late 80's. Some of it even the slightly tarnished bulk stuff. In the 80's the surplus German stuff was cheaper than even 5.56, and we shot tons of the the stuff.
I will say that my experience you should not run the HK "wet" like an AR. It's not needed, and appears to trap & suspend more carbon that would normally get blown out with ejection. So light lube for the critical areas is what I've found works best.
I'm going to have to disagree.
I carried one for 7 years, and the weapon gets dirty as hell in my opinion. We always kept the rifles well lubed, both internally and externally. My experience with DI AR's is limited, but I helped shoot 1000 rounds through a C8 SFW in a few hours once. It was pretty dirty, but 1000 rounds through a G3 would be hell.....especially the barrel extension/trunnion area, as well as the chamber and barrel.
It the weapon was not lubed, the fouling would harden and build up quite rapidly. We found a very good technique for cleaning the extension, by using a plastic cleaning rod meant for the cocking lever housing and what is best described as cleaning yarn:
https://forsvarsbrukt.no/gammel/produkter/Pussegarn.jpg
Why is CLP crap in the cold? Operating temp for BreakFree CLP is -75F/-59C. I've used CLP in temps ranging from -50C to +50C, without issue.
Maybe now but it got pretty stiff way back when. I'm sure they've changed it for that reason.
No, fouling coming out of micro-pores in the barrel.
Often we would clean our weapon after having been at the range, and the patches would be completely white. When the NCO's and officers came to inspect the rifle the day after, the patch they ran through the bore was more often than not dirty. That fouling was from the micro-pores in the barrels, "sweating" during the night.
This was 12 years ago, though, during my conscript service where the focus was retard clean weapons. We had receivers and barrels that were so worn they rusted just thinking about rain. During that time people scrubbed the gun with steel wool and what not.
My read is that is more of a "white glove inspection" mindset failing than one of the rifle, though it makes you wonder how the bores were treated.
Did they issue you the HK cleaning kit with the segmented chain type pull? I've seen some that the beads were steel, others were aluminum. Really makes you wonder, that could be worse than the US steel jointed cleaning rods.
I've run the HK91 sub-freezing with no problems, but never in your Arctic conditions. (Though I did spend some time in the mountains in -30c weather just South of Trondheim, NO one January.... cold, but beautiful skiing!!! The biggest issue we had were the Danes on winter holiday!)
I'm going to have to disagree.
I carried one for 7 years, and the weapon gets dirty as hell in my opinion. We always kept the rifles well lubed, both internally and externally.
I'll defer to your experience with the NO G3's as a service rifle, though I have to wonder about the condition of the rifles. Most of the civvy HK's I see are pristine in comparison, especially regarding the coatings.
Also wonder if all the lube is the difference, the current recommendation is light lube on the rollers and the inside of the receiver rails. Everything else just wiped down. (So the NO mil says to run the HK wet, when it likes dry. And the US military teaches to run the AR dry, when it should be wet. Go figure)
It's very expensive to shoot 1k of 7.62 now, so my 91 normally is just seeing 200-300 or so during a range trip. But side by side with our AR's same number of rounds with surplus ammo, there is no comparison. Both shoot fine, just the AR's have far more residue to wipe out. But that's just my experience.
Oddly enough, one area that seems to suffer when over lubed is the cocking tube, it gets gummy and will result in slow movement when chambering. Since this is not an operating area it does not need near the lube that some do. But clearly some carbon is venting up there.
Maybe now but it got pretty stiff way back when. I'm sure they've changed it for that reason.
My local surplus stores have "Arctic CLP" that no one will touch. Smells like old CLP, but I have no idea of what's different or how well it works. (Which is why they still have it) Tan plastic bottle like the old LSA lube, black lettering. And some in larger cans.
No, fouling coming out of micro-pores in the barrel...
Gotcha. Most of the older rifles did this, especially any that had shot corrosive ammo. I remember when I came home from a two year overseas tour and looked down the barrel of my favorite 6mm. I nearly jumped out of my skin because I thought the bore had baldy corroded. Couple of swipes with a bore brush a few patches and it was bright & shiny again. Turned out to be a combination of the crapola sweating out of the bore and a herd of dust bunnies.
I remember as a kid having to clean my rifle until the patches came out clean to satisfy my father. He was in the Marines during the fifties (regulars) and early sixties (reserves). Even so, sometimes I'd run a patch through just prior to a shooting trip to clean out any excess oil and would still get residue on the patch.
Conventional wisdom in those days was that fouling usually harmed accuracy. Some experts had the radical idea that copper fouling would sometimes smooth a bore. Some rifles would lose accuracy after cleaning until a few fouling shots were fired. Even more radical was the idea that if a rifle is shooting good, don't clean the bore until accuracy dropped off. (Most accuracy buffs shooting 22 rimfires won't clean their bores at all because they see a noticeable negative affect on accuracy when they do.) The idea that a shooter shouldn't clean the bore of a good shooting rifle became more prevalent as barrel steel & production methods, bullet alloys and gun powder technology improved.
Myself, I saw no improvement in accuracy by attempting to clean the bore until all copper & carbon fouling was removed. Indeed, it's impossible to remove all copper or lead residue with just chemical cleaning. Outer's came up with their Foul-Out system which used a "reverse" electro-chemical plating process to remove copper or lead from the bore. At the time it was hailed as the best cleaning system and every serious rifleman had to have one. Now, it's almost forgotten.
Now, I just make a few passes with a Boresnake, remove the heaviest of carbon fouling from the rest of the weapon and lube as required. Since I've lived out west most of my life, I've had little worry about corrosion. Even during the three years I was exiled to the semi-tropical climes of Texas.
In contrast, I have a Winchester 94 I inherited from my grandfather that is an early smokeless powder version. Cleaning must be more detailed and more carefully done to preserve it because the old steel requires it
sinlessorrow
12-10-12, 10:44
Now, I just make a few passes with a Boresnake, remove the heaviest of carbon fouling from the rest of the weapon and lube as required. Since I've lived out west most of my life, I've had little worry about corrosion. Even during the three years I was exiled to the semi-tropical climes of Texas.
Lol tropical climates.....nothing like watching things rust as you stare at them. A film of lube is key to keeping guns from rusting here. I'm in SE texas about 10 minutes from the beach so things rust fast.
I make sure all steel surfaces have a light film of lube on them(BCG gets a nice heavy coating of SLIP2000EWL), I have never had rust issues when using a liquid lube(the lube migrates to parts I miss). This is also one reason why I like to clean my guns after every use, then relube it well. Keeps it rust free, even when I leave it sitting in the den for a week. I have also found SLIP2000EWL is an excellent rust protector.
Gotcha. Most of the older rifles did this, especially any that had shot corrosive ammo.
Getting off topic, but that's not that uncommon in rifles without chrome bores even without corrosive ammo, well cleaned and properly lubed. It's a pore thing.
My understanding is that nearly all HK family did not have chrome bores, and it's a debate whether that was oversight or by design. They did on the LMG's, so clearly they could. They were CHF though. To my knowledge most of the post WW2- early cold war generation rifles were not chrome lined. FAL's & (G1's) were not initially. Issue M-14's were one of the first, though the match ones were not. And from memory, later FAL's were chromed starting in the late 60's-early 70's.
From what I understand, most metric FALs did not have chromed bores. I don't think any of the StG bores were CL'ed. It was either the Argentine or the Imbel barrels that were CL'ed if I recall right.
I have no idea on the Commonwealth patterns
From what I understand, most metric FALs did not have chromed bores. I don't think any of the StG bores were CL'ed. It was either the Argentine or the Imbel barrels that were CL'ed if I recall right.
I have no idea on the Commonwealth patterns
Aussies report later model L1A1's were chrome bore. I've also heard that some Imbel mfg'd were, but less data there.
In any case, my understanding is that chrome bores were not the norm for Main Battle Rifles with the exception of the non-match M-14's. And there are arguments to this day on whether it would be an advantage or disadvantage for a MBR given the intended role. I certainly don't believe my late 70's CHF HK barrel is a slouch or at a disadvantage as an issue service rifle configuration.
Maybe now but it got pretty stiff way back when. I'm sure they've changed it for that reason.
CLP is Cleaner, Lubricant, Preservative. The CLP of the 80's was 'Break-Free' brand. When I went to Alaska for training in the 80's we were issued LAW to use instead of Break-free. The CLP of today is 'G96' brand. G96 doesn't have that awful smell of Break-free. G96 is labeled as having effective temperature ranges from -75F to over 350F, its flash point is 385F. It is supposed to be 85% biodegradable and safe for polymer weapons. The old Break-free you could not use on certain weapons. On a side note, I watched someone pour CLP from a gallon jug into a very hot M2, the flame it produced was impressive.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.