View Full Version : Handgun malfunction and Remedial action....SERIOUSLY???
This was snipped from an entry on a local instructors website who runs multiple "Groupon/LivingSocial" type firearm instruction events which are targeted at new/unexperienced shooters that are held at a local gun club.
____________________________________________________
"In this video I am demonstrating the three most popular malfunctions in a handgun. They are as follows:
Failure to fire
Stove-pipe
Doublefeed"
____________________________________________________
Im not quite sure what "popular" has to do with types of handgun malfunctions but I just wanted to put it into context. The following is apparently what he/they are teaching to these brand-new students who are attending his classes. The comments in RED are what concern me the most...
____________________________________________________
"Another thing I hear a bunch these days is, the new school of thought, instead of re-engaging after the remedial action go directly to an assess mode first. That is all fine and dandy but there should not be any need to assess. As you are doing remedial action, you do not disregard the enemy, and you surely dont forget if they are shooting back at you or not. The purpose of re-engaging with rounds down range is to let them know that you are back in battery and fully capable of neutralizing them. If in the couple of seconds it took for you to clear a malfunction and re-engage, the enemy fled then so be it, shoot a couple rounds and let them know to run faster.
Another reason to re-engage is to make sure that your firearm fires properly after the remedial action. If you just assess and put it back into your holster because the enemy is gone, you never know if you fixed it. A couple minutes later the enemy comes back and you pull that firearm out and it fails to fire. This is not the time to figure out what happened, you had plenty of time to figure it out if you would of fired a round after the remedial action and it failed to fire."
____________________________________________________
Im curious what everyone else's opinion is on sending rounds down range as a default after clearing a malfunction. I am of the opinion that it is patently retarded to employ and especially to teach this tecnique to new shooters
Now here's the kicker, If I want to host instructors with resumes like Larry Vickers, Kyle Defoor, John McPhee, Ken Hackathorn, etc., and more than 10 students sign-up for the class I need to arrange to have a club provided RSO sit thru the entire class and baby-sit. This guy is unaffected by this club rule because he has his own cadre of "instructors" to cover the number of students that show up to his courses. They are bringing in a high volume of students to their classes which concerns me for several different reasons.
Im not looking to harm this guy's lively-hood, but his tactics are idiotic and in my opinion introducing new shooters to this type of crap will not only cause problems for the club (and himself) down the road but will also place his students and innocent bystanders in situations of elevated liability and risk of death or injury.
polymorpheous
09-08-12, 14:28
I suspect your club has a board you can bring this up to?
There isn't a smiley for FACE PALM.
I suspect your club has a board you can bring this up to?
Yes. I am looking for more feedback before I present this. Just trying to make sure I am not loosing it myself.
Here is what I replied to the post on his website:
If you are teaching students to fire rounds downrange as a default after clearing a malfunction, where exactly are you teaching them to aim those rounds? If your attacker has fled then a case can be made that he/she is no longer a "threat" depending on the dynamics of the particular situation.
If the attacker is no longer visible and has moved behind cover/concealment, then where are you teaching students to aim the rounds that you are teaching them to fire as a default after clearing a malfunction? Should they take a moment to find a solid backstop to fire at even though this would likely take their focus away from finding the bad guy and will also likely reveal their own position?
Stay safe,
Nick
polymorpheous
09-08-12, 14:44
Don't feel too bad.
My club hosts Tactical Response classes several times a year.
A couple of board members are Jeager followers.
They do their thing, meanwhile someone on the safety committee decided to try to measure dicks with Chris Costa on Magpul's last and probably last class there.
McPhee will be here the same weekend as Tactical Response.
I sure hope the board members let McPhee do his thing uninhibited.
McNamara will be here in October.
Hopefully we can keep these high caliber types coming back.
Yes. I am looking for more feedback before I present this. Just trying to make sure I am not loosing it myself.
Here is what I replied to the post on his website:
If you are teaching students to fire rounds downrange as a default after clearing a malfunction, where exactly are you teaching them to aim those rounds? If your attacker has fled then a case can be made that he/she is no longer a "threat" depending on the dynamics of the particular situation.
If the attacker is no longer visible and has moved behind cover/concealment, then where are you teaching students to aim the rounds that you are teaching them to fire as a default after clearing a malfunction? Should they take a moment to find a solid backstop to fire at even though this would likely take their focus away from finding the bad guy and will also likely reveal their own position?
Stay safe,
Nick
Well said.
Bluedreaux
09-08-12, 15:14
Does he post any of the usual firearm safety rules on his site? Something like "Be sure of your taget and what is beyond it" would seem to contradict popping off rounds just to make sure your weapon is working.
What is this guys background? Not only is it retarded, but it seems like a really good way to get yourself in trouble both legally and civilly.
Matt
theblackknight
09-08-12, 15:44
The number of dudes who shouldnt be teaching shooting, let alone how to tie your boots is growning at a rapid rate.
The difference here is some guys just teach dumb stuff, this guy is advocating illegal and dangerous shit! That is where caring about his bottom line stops. Someone needs to at least call him out on it. Does this dude have a youtube like the rest of them?
Since you have nothing to lose (I assume) I would confront the guy and tell him what he is advocating is not only stupid, but poissibly unlawful and could land someone in hot water should they be dumb enough to listen to him.
Don't feel too bad.
My club hosts Tactical Response classes several times a year.
A couple of board members are Jeager followers.
They do their thing, meanwhile someone on the safety committee decided to try to measure dicks with Chris Costa on Magpul's last and probably last class there.
McPhee will be here the same weekend as Tactical Response.
I sure hope the board members let McPhee do his thing uninhibited.
McNamara will be here in October.
Hopefully we can keep these high caliber types coming back.
actually we had several from that club do that that 4 to be exact if i recall correct. including one of the TR followers who questioned the fact that we werent teaching retention shooting with handguns during the carbine class when chris tried to explain it he shunned us off.....
then we had 3 guys barrel down driving at a high rate of speedwhile we were teaching.....
Nick your the right path
Note i have nothing against James he does his thing and others do there's
polymorpheous
09-08-12, 18:56
actually we had several from that club do that that 4 to be exact if i recall correct. including one of the TR followers who questioned the fact that we werent teaching retention shooting with handguns during the carbine class when chris tried to explain it he shunned us off.....
then we had 3 guys barrel down driving at a high rate of speedwhile we were teaching.....
Nick your the right path
Note i have nothing against James he does his thing and others do there's
I'm sincerely sorry about your guys' experience.
Nick I hope you can get this straightened out.
Quality instruction in our area is few and far between.
I'm sincerely sorry about your guys' experience.
Nick I hope you can get this straightened out.
Quality instruction in our area is few and far between.
No need brother but thank you
If you want us back you tell me we will make it happen.
Nick send me the video linky thingy
Steve,
I have an email into my clubs president to see what he thinks of what this clown is promoting on his sight, and also to see if we can get exempted from the whole baby-sitter requirement so I can get you guys set-up here without having to worry about being interrupted during the class.
I will post the clowns website/info once I hear back from the club.
Stay safe,
Nick
That so called "instructor" shouldn't be teaching anyone anything firearms related with his blatant disregard for safety, common sense and the law. I don't think that I could contain myself around someone like that. Nickdrak, you are doing the right thing. Eventually, someone will be held accountable for his stupidity. I'm curious about his website as well. Keep us updated on this.
There is so much wrong with that I can't even begin.
I wonder if this guy teaches "warning shots" too.
"just send one down their way to let them know you're really serious"
I like what the guy is teaching. I might also add that before you determine the "enemy" is a threat... FIRE a few rounds so you know your weapon is functional. It will also let the "enemy" know you have been through quality training! :cool:
Littlelebowski
09-12-12, 09:39
Good ol' Tactical Response (student and instructor pic below).
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/YeagerGrebnerClass.jpg
That must be their classroom at the left rear.
Don't feel too bad.
My club hosts Tactical Response classes several times a year.
A couple of board members are Jeager followers.
They do their thing, meanwhile someone on the safety committee decided to try to measure dicks with Chris Costa on Magpul's last and probably last class there.
McPhee will be here the same weekend as Tactical Response.
I sure hope the board members let McPhee do his thing uninhibited.
McNamara will be here in October.
Hopefully we can keep these high caliber types coming back.
LOL I would love to be there if they were to confront John. Try and get video because its sure to be an epic exchange.
Also, with the NEW MPD I'll bet you could get them to come back for more classes if you wanted. They aren't scared of a few idiots.
For your viewing and educational pleasure: http://dmztactical.com/gun-blog/handgun-malfunction-and-remedial-action/
And another gem I found on this awesome crew: http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news%2Flocal&id=8730196
The video was actually painful to watch. I'm dumber now than I was ten minutes ago. I was going to send him a polite email suggesting that he figure out how to set up a malfunction prior to taping it. At least edit the film or start over if you know you screwed up.
Then I read the article in your second link. I'm pretty sure DMZ Tactical is no more, or at least won't be soon.:jester:
Then I read the article in your second link. I'm pretty sure DMZ Tactical is no more, or at least won't be soon.:jester:
No, unfortunately they are going strong and have found a new home at my gun club:blink:
Alaskapopo
09-13-12, 00:16
This was snipped from an entry on a local instructors website who runs multiple "Groupon/LivingSocial" type firearm instruction events which are targeted at new/unexperienced shooters that are held at a local gun club.
____________________________________________________
"In this video I am demonstrating the three most popular malfunctions in a handgun. They are as follows:
Failure to fire
Stove-pipe
Doublefeed"
____________________________________________________
Im not quite sure what "popular" has to do with types of handgun malfunctions but I just wanted to put it into context. The following is apparently what he/they are teaching to these brand-new students who are attending his classes. The comments in RED are what concern me the most...
____________________________________________________
"Another thing I hear a bunch these days is, the new school of thought, instead of re-engaging after the remedial action go directly to an assess mode first. That is all fine and dandy but there should not be any need to assess. As you are doing remedial action, you do not disregard the enemy, and you surely dont forget if they are shooting back at you or not. The purpose of re-engaging with rounds down range is to let them know that you are back in battery and fully capable of neutralizing them. If in the couple of seconds it took for you to clear a malfunction and re-engage, the enemy fled then so be it, shoot a couple rounds and let them know to run faster.
Another reason to re-engage is to make sure that your firearm fires properly after the remedial action. If you just assess and put it back into your holster because the enemy is gone, you never know if you fixed it. A couple minutes later the enemy comes back and you pull that firearm out and it fails to fire. This is not the time to figure out what happened, you had plenty of time to figure it out if you would of fired a round after the remedial action and it failed to fire."
____________________________________________________
Im curious what everyone else's opinion is on sending rounds down range as a default after clearing a malfunction. I am of the opinion that it is patently retarded to employ and especially to teach this tecnique to new shooters
Now here's the kicker, If I want to host instructors with resumes like Larry Vickers, Kyle Defoor, John McPhee, Ken Hackathorn, etc., and more than 10 students sign-up for the class I need to arrange to have a club provided RSO sit thru the entire class and baby-sit. This guy is unaffected by this club rule because he has his own cadre of "instructors" to cover the number of students that show up to his courses. They are bringing in a high volume of students to their classes which concerns me for several different reasons.
Im not looking to harm this guy's lively-hood, but his tactics are idiotic and in my opinion introducing new shooters to this type of crap will not only cause problems for the club (and himself) down the road but will also place his students and innocent bystanders in situations of elevated liability and risk of death or injury.
I agree with you. That is retarded. You only fire if you need to fire.
pat
For your viewing and educational pleasure: http://dmztactical.com/gun-blog/handgun-malfunction-and-remedial-action/
And another gem I found on this awesome crew: http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news%2Flocal&id=8730196Clown ****ing shoes.
And sorry I rarely swear online.
For the love of Christ! This yahoo gets free reign on your club ranges after launching rounds through houses (no doubt he was just proving to himself that he cleared his malfunction), but quality instructors need a babysitter? Might want to bring up the liability issues this guy presents at the next board meeting.......
And invest in armor
Guns-up.50
09-13-12, 08:24
I wonder if this guy teaches "warning shots" too.
"just send one down their way to let them know you're really serious"
Are you serious, of course! warning shots are the only way to make sure you weapon functions before shit gets real.;)
Guns-up.50
09-13-12, 08:40
Clown ****ing shoes.
And sorry I rarely swear online.
Yes! and sadly as we all know the firearms training world is full of ball bags, and there mere existence is to drain peoples pocketbooks for knowledge that is nearly common and less than par. Frankly I am embarrassed by these imposters, and pity the poor, naive sole that falls into the trap of this douche-baggery.
Most of their Resumes likely contain:
Watch Navy Seals 3 time.
Watched Saving PVT Ryan (only the battle scenes)
Video Tutorial on Jujitsu.
Watch the unit regularly
Good ol' Tactical Response (student and instructor pic below).
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h251/baxshep/YeagerGrebnerClass.jpg
I can't find the video.
Is that really an instructor, or are you just assuming that he is one because he is watching?
Littlelebowski
09-20-12, 12:26
I think it's an instructor. Here's the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pLN3XLyP2W4
Littlelebowski
09-20-12, 12:36
At about 3:48, you can see what I think is the same "instructor" advancing forward and not shooting but maybe holding a shot timer? I can't tell. He's definitely walking forward of two students on his left and the viewer's right and he's definitely not shooting.
I think it's an instructor. Here's the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pLN3XLyP2W4
:D:cray::D Some fancy moves Tex's got going on there.
I think it's an instructor. Here's the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pLN3XLyP2W4
Oh god. Is that 2 pistols?! I'm surprised they allow that.
Who does their curriculum?
Here's another gem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=SBY8bYKIBHY&feature=endscreen
At about 3:48, you can see what I think is the same "instructor" advancing forward and not shooting but maybe holding a shot timer? I can't tell. He's definitely walking forward of two students on his left and the viewer's right and he's definitely not shooting.
The person at 3:48 is different (shorts, tucked in shirt, fanny pack, and lack of facial hair), and not the same one as the picture.
IMO the person in your picture is simply someone watching for whatever reason.
Littlelebowski
09-20-12, 13:35
The person at 3:48 is different (shorts, tucked in shirt, fanny pack, and lack of facial hair), and not the same one as the picture.
IMO the person in your picture is simply someone watching for whatever reason.
Looks like the guy at 3:48 also has facial hair and the same build.
In my opinion and not trying to be argumentative, the first guy probably isn't watching (a spectator shouldn't be that close) and clearly is watching for mistakes.
Littlelebowski
09-20-12, 13:37
Forgot to point out that this is a multi day course so I don't think we can count dress as a factor in this little fact finding expedition.
Class link: http://www.tacticalresponse.com/course.php?courseID=5
Suwannee Tim
09-20-12, 14:01
......after launching rounds through houses......
DMZ offered to replace the shot out window and put wood putty in the bullet hole in the deck. No harm no foul right? Basically, actually, basically, actually, actually, basically, basically no problem.
Holy crap, I thought ol Tex was about to shoot himself all over again while clearing that malfunction.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
Looks like the guy at 3:48 also has facial hair and the same build.
The one in black? Or the one in the Tactical Response polo shirt (ie instructors)?
The one in black looks like he is holding a camera.
In my opinion and not trying to be argumentative, the first guy probably isn't watching (a spectator shouldn't be that close) and clearly is watching for mistakes.
Why shouldn't a spectator be that close? The spectator may simply be another student, watching a drill before his turn comes up.
I know when I take classes with multiple relays during more difficult drills or techniques we will stand closely behind the line watching the previous relay for any mistakes, or how to do it properly. Learn from other people's mistakes, so you don't make them. Other schools take a trainer the trainer approach where the previous relay is asked to watch the current relay for mistakes and such.
If you look for pictures and videos of Tactical Response almost always the instructors are dress in a Khaki polo shirt with the school's logo on it. So unless you have some evidence other then a few seconds in a video, I think you are just trying to find issues with something you don't like.
The one in black? Or the one in the Tactical Response polo shirt (ie instructors)?
The one in black looks like he is holding a camera.
Why shouldn't a spectator be that close? The spectator may simply be another student, watching a drill before his turn comes up.
I know when I take classes with multiple relays during more difficult drills or techniques we will stand closely behind the line watching the previous relay for any mistakes, or how to do it properly. Learn from other people's mistakes, so you don't make them. Other schools take a trainer the trainer approach where the previous relay is asked to watch the current relay for mistakes and such.
If you look for pictures and videos of Tactical Response almost always the instructors are dress in a Khaki polo shirt with the school's logo on it. So unless you have some evidence other then a few seconds in a video, I think you are just trying to find issues with something you don't like.
Pretty much everyone here has an issue with Tactical Response. They are as bad as it gets in the training industry and I have no problem calling it the way it is. If you can't watch their videos and see exactly why they are despised, then simply do some research on the owner or their photographers and that should help...
It seems as though you have some positive things to share with us about them... Please feel free to do so.
lifebreath
09-20-12, 15:19
Holy crap, I thought ol Tex was about to shoot himself all over again while clearing that malfunction.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
That was my thought ... Damn, he's going to shoot his dick off this time!
I'm pretty fortunate to have some really solid instruction at my local club. At least I think they're solid ... they use Tex's videos to illustrate what NOT to do and point out all the misktakes!
Pretty much everyone here has an issue with Tactical Response. They are as bad as it gets in the training industry and I have no problem calling it the way it is. If you can't watch their videos and see exactly why they are despised, then simply do some research on the owner or their photographers and that should help...
It seems as though you have some positive things to share with us about them... Please feel free to do so.
Oh yes I am well aware that Tactical Response isn't favored here. And I know exactly why you dislike them, just because I don't have a high post count doesn't that I don't read.
Honestly I am not so stupid enough to argue anything that is remotely subjective on the internet. Hell even with something that can be measured objectively, it is almost impossible to change someones mind, so I don't bother.
The only reason I posted is that someone was attempting to insinuate something that is clearly wrong for anyone that actually watched the video. It is pretty clear who the instructors are from the video, compared to an out of context screen capture.
Littlelebowski
09-20-12, 16:16
The one in black? Or the one in the Tactical Response polo shirt (ie instructors)?
The one in black looks like he is holding a camera.
Why shouldn't a spectator be that close? The spectator may simply be another student, watching a drill before his turn comes up.
I know when I take classes with multiple relays during more difficult drills or techniques we will stand closely behind the line watching the previous relay for any mistakes, or how to do it properly. Learn from other people's mistakes, so you don't make them. Other schools take a trainer the trainer approach where the previous relay is asked to watch the current relay for mistakes and such.
If you look for pictures and videos of Tactical Response almost always the instructors are dress in a Khaki polo shirt with the school's logo on it. So unless you have some evidence other then a few seconds in a video, I think you are just trying to find issues with something you don't like.
Maybe, maybe not on the guy we are talking about. It does make sense on the uniform and one would certainly hope that guy is not an instructor.
I have a few things I could quibble with you over TR's training; both how they teach it and why. I'd be happy to list them if you'd prefer to argue over something more easily substantiated. Just let me know.
Here's another gem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=SBY8bYKIBHY&feature=endscreen
Man, he's got that "put the thing in the thing and pull the thing" down pat....how long until he shoots himself again?
sent from my overcompensation tool known as the galaxy note
Man, he's got that "put the thing in the thing and pull the thing" down pat....how long until he shoots himself again?
Something tells me that before he goes to bed, he plays with his thing while holding the other thing...
Having Tex Grebner as a self appointed spokesman for you training company is like having Amy Winehouse as a spokesman for your rehab program.
I am not a fan of Tactical Response, their methods of running firearms, or Yeager. But I can't blame them for Tex Grebner.
The question I have aboiut Grebner is how stupid does one have to be to not realize how incredibly stupid you are and how bad you make yourself look on Youtube.
The question I have aboiut Grebner is how stupid does one have to be to not realize how incredibly stupid you are and how bad you make yourself look on Youtube.
^^^This... Certainly at some point he has to have watched himself just once.
The question I have aboiut Grebner is how stupid does one have to be to not realize how incredibly stupid you are and how bad you make yourself look on Youtube.
I just checked his YouTube Page. 862 uploads. The answer to your question is, pretty damn stupid!
So this guy shoots himself in the leg and blames the holster? Hmmm
Littlelebowski
09-21-12, 06:25
Yup, any instructor would not like having Tex endorse him.
However, what instructor teaches or allows a cross draw to secondary handgun? What about the TR reload procedure of always racking the slide (watch Tex eject a perfectly good round during reloads on the video)? Why in god's name would you:
-teach transition to secondary on the first day of a carbine class?
-not have the students shoot to empty then transition?
Guess what happened? A student shot himself doing transitions to secondary, then two combat vets left the class in disgust and alarm and reported it on TOS. Every carbine class I've been in (Defoor, Vickers, Failure2Stop) teaches to transition with loading one round, firing, weapon is empty, transition to secondary. Not "well, we TOLD him to put the safety on" as guys on their first day of training transition to secondary with a hot weapon.
It boggles the ****ing mind.
Yup, any instructor would not like having Tex endorse him.
However, what instructor teaches or allows a cross draw to secondary? What about the TR reload procedure of always racking the slide (watch Tex eject a perfectly good round during reloads on the video)? Why in god's name would you:
-teach transition to secondary on the first day of a carbine class?
-not have the students shoot to empty then transition?
Guess what happened? Right after two combat vets left the class in disgust and alarm, a student shot himself doing transitions to secondary. Every carbine class I've been in (Defoor, Vickers, Failure2Stop) teaches to transition with loading one round, firing, weapon is empty, transition to secondary. Not "well, we TOLD him to put the safety on" as guys on their first day of training transition to secondary with a hot weapon.
It boggles the ****ing mind.
This.
C4
polymorpheous
09-21-12, 08:52
Sorry this thread got derailed Nick.
I should have never mentioned TR. :jester:
Perhaps there should be a dumbest training thread?
Yup, any instructor would not like having Tex endorse him.
If I wanted to spend money to damage the reputaion of a firearms instructor or school that I didn't like, I can't think of a better way to do it than to pay Tex Grebner to do youtube videos about them (which shouldn't be taken to suggest that I am paying him to do videos on Tactical Response . . .)
I mean Tex Grebner lives in Illinois or Indiana, WTF does he put on a southern accent, wear a cowboy hat, or call himself Tex?
The only people who can do so (but still look stupid doing it) are professional wrestlers and members of the Village People.
Maybe Yeager is trying to mentor Tex Grebner. Though I am not a fan of Yeager, he has been known to be supportive and generous at times. Though in Tex Grebner's case I think you would need something beyond mentoring--like maybe genetic re-engineering. While I may say snitty things about Grebner, I actually do feel sorry for him that he seems incapable of realizing how stupid he comes across.
Perhaps Grebner likes any attention, like a moronic reality TV star. Maybe next year he will invest in some hair gel, faux gold chains, different clothing, and start talking like a bad stereotype of someone from NJ.
However, what instructor teaches or allows a cross draw to secondary handgun?
I don't know. I can't speak for them. I took the Tactical Response Fighting Pistol Class in 2006, and I didn't see any of that. I didn't care for the firearms manipulations they taught at that time.
What about the TR reload procedure of always racking the slide (watch Tex eject a perfectly good round during reloads on the video)?
Tactical Response teaches racking the slide whenever you do a tactical reload as a default in case the slide has closed on an empty chamber. I was not a fan of this. It *might* make sense in *some* situations like with a gun that does not have a bolt hold-open on the last round--Like an AK--or with a gun that is exhibiting problems with this.
But they turn it into a rule to apply to all firearms in all situations to try to simplify running a gun and mimimize the decision making process. This may make it easier for someone who knows nothing about firearms to learn, but most people get beyond that very quickly. Also, if you are going to proceed from that premise with intellectual honesty, you are going to really dumb down your ciriculum and limit everything you teach.
For example, Tactical Response teaches to rack the slide during slidelock reloads and not to use the slide release since they claim using the slide release is a fine motor skill that you can't reliably manage. But at the same time they teach easing the trigger back to reset after each round. If anything, easing the trigger to reset is a finer motor skill than hitting the slide release. So I guess fine motor skills work with manipulations that you advocate, but not with those you don't. I mean how do you hit the mag release or squeeze the trigger with even the slightest amount of finesse if you loose all fine motor skills?
Now apparantly whenever you do a tactical reload they have students drop the loaded magazine on the ground rather than retaining it, then crouch down to retrieve the magazine with their support hand while keeping the handgun pointed downrange with their gun hand. I'm not even going to try to address the illogic of this, not to mention that reaching to pick something up while having an unholstered gun in your hand will get you yelled at for a safety violation with many other trainers for obvious reasons.
Why in god's name would you:
-teach transition to secondary on the first day of a carbine class?
-not have the students shoot to empty then transition?
Guess what happened? A student shot himself doing transitions to secondary, then two combat vets left the class in disgust and alarm and reported it on TOS.
I hadn't heard about that one.
Every carbine class I've been in (Defoor, Vickers, Failure2Stop) teaches to transition with loading one round, firing, weapon is empty, transition to secondary. Not "well, we TOLD him to put the safety on" as guys on their first day of training transition to secondary with a hot weapon.
Same here.
It boggles the ****ing mind.
Which is why I try not to think about it if I can avoid doing so. Thanks for making me think about it :)
NCPatrolAR
09-22-12, 08:54
I hadn't heard about that one.
IIRC, it was a student using an AK and he shot himself during a run of the "meltdown" drill thats taught during that course. I do believe the round went through the guy's foot and he was taken to the hospital while the class continued.
Okay, someone was nice enough to send me a link to what happened in the class.
Sounds like a real mess.
polymorpheous
09-22-12, 19:15
How many of these accidents have happened at TR classes?
Just watching a few minutes of those videos from that Tex yahoo I am amazed it doesn't happen all the time.
NCPatrolAR
09-23-12, 09:08
How many of these accidents have happened at TR classes?
At least 2 according to Yeager
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGJyTKBDBcQ&feature=g-vrec
Littlelebowski
09-23-12, 09:22
Looks like he works closely with Galco.
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