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View Full Version : .223 Saiga + BlackHills Ammo = Problems



thetallengineer
02-02-08, 23:26
I was at the range today having a good time with my CZ452 .22LR and the guy next to me was having some issues. He was shooting a Saiga .223 and using Blackhills blue box 40gr VMax ammo. Apparently he had several "double feeds" (his words) and other issues with the ammo and then had a case rupture and half of the brass was stuck in the chamber.

I don't know anything about Saiga rifles but I've always thought of Blackhills as quality ammo. So my question is, what caused this to happen. I've posted some pictures and also included a link to the original files that are 2mb in size each.

BH_Vmax1 (http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/BH_Vmax1.jpg)
http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/BH_Vmax1_sm.jpg


BH_Vmax2 (http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/BH_Vmax2.jpg)
http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/BH_Vmax2_sm.jpg


BH_Vmax3 (http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/BH_Vmax3.jpg)
http://files.thetallengineer.com/post/BH_Vmax3_sm.jpg

IrishDevil
02-03-08, 02:46
What kind of magazines was he using in the rifle. Was the rifle in stock form or converted? He may have some feed issues due to a poor conversion job. As far as the blown casings, I don't have a clue. Possibly could be that the rounds are firing before lock up.

gunsouth
02-03-08, 07:37
Primers looked cratered to me, indicating high pressure. I don't think those bullets were crimped, so maybe the bullets suffered setback in their case while in the magazine due to the violent nature and high inertia of the kalishnikov action and caused pressures to go much higher than normal. This could keep the brass expanded longer and then the very large extractor and large mass of the bolt carrier ripped the case in half. It also ballooned a couple of other rounds below the neck. Also check chamber dimensions to make sure they are 5.56. Just my .02.

Gunsouth

TOrrock
02-03-08, 07:41
Definitely need to know what configuration the SAIGA was in, and if it was converted, how well the feed ramp was done and what kind of mags.

I'm inclined to blame the rifle vs. the ammo.

thetallengineer
02-03-08, 17:03
The first thing I did when he showed me the ammo was look at the receiver to verify it was .223, so that isn't the issue. Unfortunately I didn't think to ask him the exact position of the two unfired rounds. It turns out the guy actually works at the same place I do so I can ask him more questions this coming week.

The order of events might be important, because its possible he had the case rupture and didn't notice. Then he tried to feed two more rounds into the chamber with the brass in there and that is what deformed the unfired cases.

I think the two unfired rounds where attempted to be chambered but wouldn't go in all the way.

He did mention one more thing and that is he normally shoots wolf. If its true that wolf cases don't expand as much as brass, is it possible for carbon to have built up to a level that would reduce chamber size and cause overpressure issues?

I'm not sure what magazines he was using or any specifics about the rifle. I realize that would be an important piece of the puzzle, but I don't have that info at this time.


I'm also inclined to blame the rifle rather than the ammo.

ST911
02-03-08, 19:13
Case separation is not uncommon in reman ammo. More common to brands other than Black Hills, which actually loads once-fired cases from known source(s). The "once fired" of others may or may not be.

Guns like the Saiga may create a more optimal condition for this to occur.

Ridgerunner665
02-03-08, 20:08
Those are most certainly cratered primers, and look at the primer flow...see how flat they are compared to the unfired primers, this is clearly overloaded ammo...even a good ammo maker can make a mistake sometimes....was this ammo marked 223 or 5.56x45?

markm
02-04-08, 13:16
Could be an issue with this weapons chamber combined with the FACT that Black hills cases (in my experience) are NOT TRIMMED, and are quite out of OAL spec.

I'd be interested to know if the same happens with New ammo.

gyp_c2
02-10-08, 07:11
...seen similar from oversize chamber with standard pressure loads...too many unknowns...http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

thetallengineer
02-20-08, 22:45
Well I talked to my coworker and apparently he didn't notice the ruptured case which caused the next two rounds to be deformed while feeding.

The gunsmith who removed the brass checked the chamber and said it was ok.


The Blackhills rep was friendly and said they get about 15 reports of ruptured cases a year out of the millions of rounds they produce.

Robb Jensen
02-21-08, 05:26
Have you tried some of this same lot of Black Hills in an AR?

How did it run?

thetallengineer
02-27-08, 08:29
I haven't had a chance to try it in any other gun yet. Next time I'm at the range I'll see how it does through my AR.