Trust - Assignment of Property?

[flynnstone]

I did a quick search and didn't find exactly what i'm looking for. I've got my Form 1 and Certificate of Compliance all filled out, and my revocable living trust drafted using Willmaker.

Within the 'Assignment of Property' and 'Schedule A' section of the trust, I've listed an old Glock, but i wanted to know if i should list the receiver which will be used for the SBR before the Form 1 is approved?

My assumption is that i will just amend the Trust documentation to add the SBR to the the Schedule A, and Assignment of Property once the ATF approves. True or False?


Thanks!

[mass-diver]

List the receiver

[Iraqgunz]

I put the item I was Form 1'ing in the Schedule A and sent it in like that everytime and there was no issue at all. Just fill it in (make, model, serial number and description) and send it in.

[flynnstone]

Thanks guys

[Defender3]

FWIW - I had my trust done by a lawyer a couple of years ago when there were concerns about Willmaker being accepted. I asked a similar question and the lawer advised to place $10 in the Trust and not to place the item I was applying for in the Trust as it had not yet been transferred, and therefore, was not eligible to go into the Trust.

In this case, the item was a suppressor that had yet to be approved or transferred to me. Provided FYI since this is not exactly what you asked, but may help someone else.

[Iraqgunz]

I know for a fact in addition to my trust being done that several others did it exactly like that and every one of us had our stuff. YMMV


FWIW - I had my trust done by a lawyer a couple of years ago when there were concerns about Willmaker being accepted. I asked a similar question and the lawer advised to place $10 in the Trust and not to place the item I was applying for in the Trust as it had not yet been transferred, and therefore, was not eligible to go into the Trust.

In this case, the item was a suppressor that had yet to be approved or transferred to me. Provided FYI since this is not exactly what you asked, but may help someone else.

[az doug]

FWIW - I had my trust done by a lawyer a couple of years ago when there were concerns about Willmaker being accepted. I asked a similar question and the lawer advised to place $10 in the Trust and not to place the item I was applying for in the Trust as it had not yet been transferred, and therefore, was not eligible to go into the Trust.

In this case, the item was a suppressor that had yet to be approved or transferred to me. Provided FYI since this is not exactly what you asked, but may help someone else.

I agree a suppressor should not be added to the trust until ATF NFA Branch approves the transfer. The OP was asking about a Title I gun he is going to SBR. He can transfer a Title I gun to the trust, just as you transferred $10.00.

I do not believes it really matters, but I would transfer the Title I gun that I was going to convert into the Trust and then send my trust
paperwork and forms to ATF.

[Hydguy]

When I did my first SBR's (2 F1's on a trust), I didn't put anything on the Assignment of Property, and sent it in.
About 5 months later, I got a call from Dana Pickles letting me know that he had my paperwork ready, but I had to put something of monetary value on the Assignment to make it valid. So I put a $2 bill by serno in it, and faxed the page to him, and he signed off that day.

This time, I went ahead and listed the lower, as I already own it, and might just put every other gun in it just to be safe.... As the Grantor, you can put pretty much anything you own in the trust...

ETA: To clarify: You can put anything you own in the trust, but if it has a legal title, such as a car, you will have to re-title it to the trust....

[az doug]

When my son and I sent our trust in it only had One U.S. Dollar in it. No serial number... ATF accepted it.

[Hydguy]

I put the serno in just to show that a specific bill funded the trust. Don't know if it's 'required', but since you have to do the serno of the firearm, I figured better safe than sorry..I'll never spend that $2 bill, so no biggie...

[1qsb28]

The only purpose of a sked A is to fund the trust at its creation, it is NOT a running list of trust assets(the approved form 1/4 is the proof of trust ownership)....you can fund it with what ever you want(such as a dollar bill as some have done). after that, nothing should ever be added to the sked A including the NFA weapon you are transferring.

If you end up using that trust to collect fifty NFA stamps, the sked A should look the same for the 50th form 1/4 as it did for the first, just that dollar bill. A LOT of people treat it as an inventory and while that is not correct the NFA inspectors are not lawyers and forms have been approved both ways. FWIW, my sked A has not changed since the day the trust was notarized and I have seven stamps and counting, never had one in problem status.

[flynnstone]

The only purpose of a sked A is to fund the trust at its creation, it is NOT a running list of trust assets(the approved form 1/4 is the proof of trust ownership)....you can fund it with what ever you want(such as a dollar bill as some have done). after that, nothing should ever be added to the sked A including the NFA weapon you are transferring.

If you end up using that trust to collect fifty NFA stamps, the sked A should look the same for the 50th form 1/4 as it did for the first, just that dollar bill. A LOT of people treat it as an inventory and while that is not correct the NFA inspectors are not lawyers and forms have been approved both ways. FWIW, my sked A has not changed since the day the trust was notarized and I have seven stamps and counting, never had one in problem status.

I guess the bigger question is why would you not want to list the firearms within Schedule A?

If you have a Schedule A with a dollar bill attached to it, you are saying that the ownly item held within the trust is one dollar. Clearly the purpose of the Schedule A is to assign your property (firearms) to the trust.

[1qsb28]

I guess the bigger question is why would you not want to list the firearms within Schedule A?
because its not anyone's business to see a complete list of weapons my trust owns.


If you have a Schedule A with a dollar bill attached to it, you are saying that the ownly item held within the trust is one dollar. Clearly the purpose of the Schedule A is to assign your property (firearms) to the trust.

Clearly??? ...there is massive misinformation being put out on gun forums regarding this. If you consult an attorney or study the actual trust law you will find that the Schedule A is NOT a legal document, has NO legal authority and CANNOT transfer title of property to the trust by its self. It an "informational" document added to assist successor trusties to determine property owned by the trust, but is not all inclusive. To legally transfer property to a trust you should still have a bill of sale or transfer of title(this is your approved form 4).

The misconception that the trust must have a schedule A at all is perpetuated by the ATFs misunderstanding of funding a trust. So while it is not a legal document or legally required, if the ATF wants to see one you need to attach one...but you do NOT need to give them a list of all your toys on it..just the one dollar bill.

To say the trust only owns what is on the schedule a (a dollar bill) is incorrect. to the contrary the trust should spell out that it owns anything that has been transferred to it during its lifetime irrelevant of what is listed on the sked A which is strictly informational.

but please dont take my word for it...a quick search on even legal zoom or guntrustlawer will point this out, or retain the services of a lawyer...

[TriumphRat675]

I guess the bigger question is why would you not want to list the firearms within Schedule A?

If you have a Schedule A with a dollar bill attached to it, you are saying that the ownly item held within the trust is one dollar. Clearly the purpose of the Schedule A is to assign your property (firearms) to the trust.

Not so.* Understand that trusts vary by state law, but generally speaking Schedule A to a trust will not contain an exhaustive list of trust assets. Otherwise everytime you add an asset to the trust you would be amending it... You can have a separate document with an assignment, bill of sale, BATFE paperwork, what have you that states that the asset has been transferred into the trust.

Understand further that a trust is generally used as an estate-planning tool and not as a work-around for asinine firearms laws. So to a degree the usual way of doing things, such as not listing your assets in the Schedule A, may or may not be applicable. I personally list my trust assets in Schedule A, because why not. But in my state -and again, refer to your state's law - it isn't mandatory.

There is a lot of confusion about how NFA trusts work and the best practices that should be followed when dealing with them. IMO this is due to, among other things, attorneys without substantial trust and estate experience getting into the NFA trust game, an order of magnitude more of laymen drawing up trusts for themselves without having the first idea about what they are doing, and general confusion about the NFA and BATFE regulations, which nobody really understands.

One common misconception is that the trust owns the items subject to the trust. Not so. While the NFA treats a trust like an independent entity such as a corporation or LLC, it is not. A trust is just a relationship between a grantor (settlor), a trustee, and a beneficiary wherein the grantor gives away their full interest in property, and the trustee owns the legal interest in the property on behalf of the beneficiary, who owns the equitable interest in the property. In other words, the trustee holds legal title to the propery on behalf of the beneficiary, and owes the beneficiary a fiduciary duty to, among other things, preserve the value of the property held. A common error is to create a trust where the trustee and beneficiary are the same person. In some states, the effect of this is to create no trust - since the legal and equitable interest in the property is owned by one individual, no trust can exist. This is a trap for the unwary...

*I am not your attorney and am not providing legal advice. Refer to federal and applicable state laws and seek counsel from a competent attorney in your state if you have state-specific trust related questions.

[flynnstone]

because its not anyone's business to see a complete list of weapons my trust owns.



Clearly??? ...there is massive misinformation being put out on gun forums regarding this. If you consult an attorney or study the actual trust law you will find that the Schedule A is NOT a legal document, has NO legal authority and CANNOT transfer title of property to the trust by its self. It an "informational" document added to assist successor trusties to determine property owned by the trust, but is not all inclusive. To legally transfer property to a trust you should still have a bill of sale or transfer of title(this is your approved form 4).

The misconception that the trust must have a schedule A at all is perpetuated by the ATFs misunderstanding of funding a trust. So while it is not a legal document or legally required, if the ATF wants to see one you need to attach one...but you do NOT need to give them a list of all your toys on it..just the one dollar bill.

To say the trust only owns what is on the schedule a (a dollar bill) is incorrect. to the contrary the trust should spell out that it owns anything that has been transferred to it during its lifetime irrelevant of what is listed on the sked A which is strictly informational.

but please dont take my word for it...a quick search on even legal zoom or guntrustlawer will point this out, or retain the services of a lawyer...

Maybe i shouldn't have said 'Clearly' :D I understand there is a vast amount of inaccurate information on the web, and i'm just trying to determine the proper way to get structure the trust.

Thanks for the info

[Mr.Maim]

because its not anyone's business to see a complete list of weapons my trust owns.

... you will find that the Schedule A is NOT a legal document, has NO legal authority and CANNOT transfer title of property to the trust by its self. It an "informational" document added to assist successor trusties to determine property owned by the trust, but is not all inclusive. To legally transfer property to a trust you should still have a bill of sale or transfer of title(this is your approved form 4).


Interesting. I'm having this exact same debate over on NFATalk and the general consensus there (opposed to my understanding of trust law in my state) is that you should populate your Schedule A with everything held by the trust and submit it every time you do a transfer or make an SBR. 1qsb28 you are correct that unless your trust specifically states that there will be a Schedule A attached to the trust or your state requires it, it is an optional Schedule document and not required. And, I agree that it is nobody's business what items are held by the trust including the BATFE. If they want to know, they can look it up. That's what accurate record keeping and computer databases are for, they should not be relying on my trust document's Schedule A.

But, to transfer an item into a trust, I believe generally, that you have to have (fill one out) an Assignment of Property, and that the Form1 or Form4 itself is not a proper transfer. At least that is the law in my state and has been my understanding that that general rule holds true... in most places (I was going to say "everywhere" but that is too broad of a statement).

[everyusernametaken]

The above post is my understanding as well, as it applies here in Virginia, based on the guidance and recommendation of the lawyer I consulted to set up my trust. I do not send an Assignment of Trust with my form 4, but wait for the approval and receipt of the tax stamp, and then fill out and sign/notarize the assignment, and send it to the NFA branch. In this interpretation, the item is not property which can be assigned to the trust until the transfer is complete, and the transfer form is not, in itself, an assignment of property.

I hear/read many accounts of people successfully transferring NFA items to trusts, often without consideration for this detail. I don't know that it will ever be truly necessary - as I understand it, this may be a gray area which is subject to interpretation, depending on circumstances. Something which could become an issue if scrutinized may very well never be noticed or challenged.

ETA - I forgot to mention, whether you submit the assignment to the ATF is another issue. I won't comment on that one.

[oef24]

The only item listed in my Schedule A is a $10.00 bill to fund the trust. Proof of ownership are my stamps. Simple.

O

[everyusernametaken]

The only item listed in my Schedule A is a $10.00 bill to fund the trust. Proof of ownership are my stamps. Simple.

O

Regardless of whether you send the assignment to the ATF, the assignment is still the legal instrument that associates the property with the trust. The stamp does not serve that purpose.

[RC51_Texas]

Nothing wrong with listing the receiver before you have the Form back.

My Attorney has two SBR's listed on my Inventory List that I haven't received Forms back from the BATFE yet. I know the Serial #'s, so he advised to list them now.

[TriumphRat675]

Gents,

I am a fan of thinking through problems but it seems to me that there is a lot of overthinking this particular problem. How and when to add property to a trust will be governed by state law and the particulars of the trust document itself.

For example, per the Texas Property Code:

Sec. 112.006. ADDITIONS TO TRUST PROPERTY. Property may be added to an existing trust from any source in any manner unless the addition is prohibited by the terms of the trust or the property is unacceptable to the trustee.

Nothing that I am aware of in the Texas Property Code says the transfer of property must be in writing, in a schedule, etc. Generally the trust must be in writing to comply with the statute of frauds, but even that is not a hard and fast rule. Yes, you would still want to paper the transaction, like with any transfer of goods or money. The name of the NFA game is CYA.

If you have concerns about this, consult with a trust and estate attorney licensed in your state, not Internet forum regulars, including me.

[tepin]

I added a comments column to my schedule A... I listed my AR as a "Short Barrel Rifle" and in the comments box I added "Pending BATFE Approval".
In doing my research I have read that some of the folks at ATF want to see the gun / receiver listed on schedule A. I think I have about 5 months left to wait before getting my stamp.