View Full Version : M&P midsize 45
Oh my, is this the Glock 19 size 45 i've been waiting for?
http://www.gunblast.com/images/SHOT2008/Day0/DSC02107.jpg
I can clearly see a couple more M&Ps in my future.
http://mp-pistol.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=10782&start=40
Is the top one the "m" size and the bottom the "c" size?
I actually held off buying an M&P9c because I wanted to wait until these come out. :D
NCPatrolAR
02-03-08, 19:24
Is the top one the "m" size and the bottom the "c" size?
I actually held off buying an M&P9c because I wanted to wait until these come out. :D
Should be. The M is supposed to have a shorter barrel, but standard grip. The compact obviously has a shorter barrel (same as M) and grip.
YukonGlocker
02-03-08, 23:22
Is the top one the "m" size and the bottom the "c" size?.Yes.
Anyone know if the compact will be available in black with the thumb safety or only in the coyote? Either way its going to be my first handgun purchase for '08.
Alpha Sierra
02-04-08, 20:34
Anyone know if the compact will be available in black with the thumb safety or only in the coyote? Either way its going to be my first handgun purchase for '08.
AFAIK, only the army clone 45 will have the safety.
To me, not having an external safety is a plus.
Anyone know if the compact will be available in black with the thumb safety or only in the coyote? Either way its going to be my first handgun purchase for '08.
I had long meeting with folks from S&W at the show today. They're expecting all of their M&P models to be available with manual safeties as an option sometime around April (give or take a month depending on testing, tooling, etc.).
I had long meeting with folks from S&W at the show today. They're expecting all of their M&P models to be available with manual safeties as an option sometime around April (give or take a month depending on testing, tooling, etc.).
All includes the M&P9L...this make me happy :D
NCPatrolAR
02-05-08, 00:02
I'm still wanting FDE guns without manual safeties
Jay Cunningham
02-05-08, 00:03
All includes the M&P9L...this make me happy :D
The M&P9L caught me completely off guard - I must admit I can see owning one!
NCPatrolAR
02-05-08, 00:26
The M&P9L caught me completely off guard - I must admit I can see owning one!
Will it improve your ability to _____________________ ?
Jay Cunningham
02-05-08, 00:31
Will it improve your ability to _____________________ ?
look cool?
pick up chicks?
learn from lesbians?
all of the above?
:D
IrishDevil
02-05-08, 02:22
Thumb safeties is what I wanted to hear. 9L w/ safety is my next M&P, followed by the 45 compact.
I'm finally going to give into the M&P urge. This is a huge thing because I'm pretty much a 1911 only guy. But after spending over an hour at the S&W booth today at SHOT, I'm sold. I really like the midsize .45. The thumb safety is also impressive. Very smooth, yet positive action.
I had long meeting with folks from S&W at the show today. They're expecting all of their M&P models to be available with manual safeties as an option sometime around April (give or take a month depending on testing, tooling, etc.).
Great news. The compact will be my first handgun purchase of 08. I have heard a few times that the safety will be available for all models and that its pretty easy to install/remove. For those of you that got to finger **** it, is it close in size to the G19?
Wayne Dobbs
02-06-08, 15:49
Pesty,
It's almost exactly the size of a G19 but it feels much better and that's coming from a near 20 year Glock fan.
I think I will be acquiring one.
I have to have one.
http://imageevent.com/smglee/ss2008?p=99&b=-1&m=36&c=4&w=4&s=1&n=1&l=0&z=3
Tspeis
Steelshooter
02-07-08, 00:26
I'm kind of surprised there is that much interest in the thumb safety. All I know is that long slide 9 has my name on it. Will also pick up a mid size .45 which looks better balanced than the current .45.
I had long meeting with folks from S&W at the show today. They're expecting all of their M&P models to be available with manual safeties as an option sometime around April (give or take a month depending on testing, tooling, etc.).
Steelshooter
02-07-08, 00:27
Me too. +1
I'm still wanting FDE guns without manual safeties
I'm kind of surprised there is that much interest in the thumb safety. All I know is that long slide 9 has my name on it. Will also pick up a mid size .45 which looks better balanced than the current .45.
The thumb safety was originally a response to early military pistol procurement drafts. The Army's R&D folks determined that soldiers wanted consistency in weapon systems, and every other small arm in service has a safety lever.
I'm toying with the idea of getting one. The two major benefits I see are from a weapons retention standpoint and having an anti-brain-fart switch on the gun. While the guy from FN who had the AD at SHOT will be sacrificed on the altar of self-righteous gun owners, he's an excellent example of why pistols with safeties and/or hammers are safer when holstering.
And fwiw, the folks at Smith I've talked to all prefer the 4" mid size M&P45 to the full size version for exactly the reason you pointed out. As soon as .45 ammo prices drop to 9mm levels and they can fit 17 rounds in that gun, I may get one. :cool:
Steelshooter
02-07-08, 00:34
I understand why it was there to begin with just kind of surprised that Smith sees such demand for it. Perhaps for LEO?
I'm kind of surprised there is that much interest in the thumb safety.
The ONLY time I like a thumb safety on a handgun is when its frame mounted, thumb activated, and flips down for fire. This comes from my early years of learning handguns with a Colt Series 70 and Browning Hi-power. Brief flirtations with a Beretta 92F and a S&W 4506 taught me to loath the slide mounted manual safety.
I believe in the manual safety as a retention feature. I know a lot of credible users that don't.
I LOVE the most often used argument against manual safeties: that you'll forget to take them off safe when under stress. With no ego involved what-so-ever, I can guarantee I'm smarter than that ;)
I LOVE the most often used argument against manual safeties: that you'll forget to take them off safe when under stress. With no ego involved what-so-ever, I can guarantee I'm smarter than that ;)
Laugh if you want, but I've seen experienced, sponsored competitive shooters forget the safety lever just under the stress of a match. I've also seen pretty squared away guys who forget it during a class or FOF scenario. Most often, the problem occurs when the gun either begins out of the holster or the safety goes back on after coming out of the holster. Since many people train to flip the safety off as part of the presentation, it just isn't part of their "pick a gun up off the ground" process.
For manual safety guns, it's important to adopt a ready position grip which puts your thumb on top of lever so any time you want the gun to make noise, your thumb will be in the right position.
I just got off the phone with S&W. They said we're looking at roughly one month until the mid size .45's are available for purchase.
An M&P45 mid size with XS sights and a Surefire X300 would be the PERFECT setup in my mind. :D
Tspeis
I don't want a manual safety on mine.
I'm toying with the idea of getting one. The two major benefits I see are from a weapons retention standpoint and having an anti-brain-fart switch on the gun. While the guy from FN who had the AD at SHOT will be sacrificed on the altar of self-righteous gun owners, he's an excellent example of why pistols with safeties and/or hammers are safer when holstering.
Todd,
I enjoy reading your post, but this suprises me. I had thought you would have been opposed to a manual safety.
STS -- If the manual safety had been available on a 9mm when I bought my gun, I definitely would have bought it that way. I come from a long background of shooting hammer-fired guns. I'm used to keeping my thumb on the hammer as I holster, guaranteeing there won't be an AD even if something gets in the trigger guard. The manual safety would ease that concern.
I also think the safety (especially the one on the M&P and others that allow you to manipulate the slide without taking the gun off-safe) is a good level of anti-brain-fade for new shooters, etc.
Having said that, I'm becoming more comfortable with the M&P as is. So I'm leaning toward the non-thumb safety models. But I can't say one version is better or more tactical than the other. Each has its benefits and its costs.
I do still have the mag disconnect safety in my M&P and will be getting it in my next one, as well. I consider it a no-brainer.
NCPatrolAR
02-07-08, 12:31
I just got off the phone with S&W. They said we're looking at roughly one month until the mid size .45's are available for purchase.
An M&P45 mid size with XS sights and a Surefire X300 would be the PERFECT setup in my mind. :D
Tspeis
Drop those sorry XS sights and you might be on to something.
Drop those sorry XS sights and you might be on to something.
I've taken a liking to the XS sights. What would you recommend?
Tspeis
I gave the XS sights an honest try for a month or two, including using them at a major IDPA match. FWIW, these were my observations:
Big Dot obscured too much of my downrange vision; I chose the smaller dot for most of my experiment.
The dot was not substantially faster for close-range shooting. Proper technique (soft focus) allowed almost the same speed with much greater accuracy.
Long-range accuracy was possible but it took much more time & effort cf. standard notch & post sights.
The v-notch rear sight provides much less visual feedback; this makes calling your shots more difficult. I'd often think I fired off 6 great shots but in reality one or two got jerked, pushed, or whatever.
I've never met a serious IPSC/USPSA/IDPA shooter using them ... if they were better for fast & accurate shooting, these people would have them on their guns. I know, combat isn't competition and vice versa. But fast & accurate hits are fast & accurate hits, and sights are about getting fast & accurate hits.
Having said all that, for a new shooter or someone with poor vision, the XS sights might be the difference between focussing on the front sight and point shooting altogether.
Aimpoint 3x/LaRue pivot mount combo *or* M&P45 compact???? THAT IS THE QUESTION!!!! ONE OR THE OTHER....:confused:
Wayne Dobbs
02-07-08, 16:39
As for manual safeties on defense pistols, I am in favor of them if they work in the correct direction (up for safe and down for fire). That hasn't existed for many systems except the 1911/1935 and the CZs. Due to that lack, I carried Glocks, Sigs and Berettas (with the decocker up) most of the time. As a young copper I did have my life saved by a 1911 with the safety on during a very "interesting" street fight over my pistol back in 1981.
I think that the M&P with the safety will give me all that I want: reliability, ergonomics, price point and the added security of that safety.
Todd,
I do agree that folks do forget the thumb safety for the reasons you've mentioned. I always operated with my 1911/1935s by using the safety as a "preliminary trigger" and didn't clear the safety lever unless I was going to fire. Lots of folks do it the other way and that's their choice but it can lead to the brain fart you described and makes the gun a shooter for whomever can get on the trigger.
Aimpoint 3x/LaRue pivot mount combo *or* M&P45 compact???? THAT IS THE QUESTION!!!! ONE OR THE OTHER....:confused:
Which one will be useful to you and which one is just another toy for the pile?
Wayne -- agree 100% on the manual safety thing. Glad the lesson you get to share with all of us turned out in your favor!
Laugh if you want, but I've seen experienced, sponsored competitive shooters forget the safety lever just under the stress of a match. I've also seen pretty squared away guys who forget it during a class or FOF scenario. Most often, the problem occurs when the gun either begins out of the holster or the safety goes back on after coming out of the holster. Since many people train to flip the safety off as part of the presentation, it just isn't part of their "pick a gun up off the ground" process.
For manual safety guns, it's important to adopt a ready position grip which puts your thumb on top of lever so any time you want the gun to make noise, your thumb will be in the right position.
Ah yes, but this harkens back to our earlier discussions about peoples performance with mastering the DA/SA trigger.
Brain fade is a bitch no matter what system a person chooses to use or what manipulation they are performing.
Ah yes, but this harkens back to our earlier discussions about peoples performance with mastering the DA/SA trigger.
Brain fade is a bitch no matter what system a person chooses to use or what manipulation they are performing.
To a certain extent I agree with that. The operating system is nowhere near as important as the shooter and his training. What we are discussing is really the finest of what-if comparisons.
Having said that ... someone who yanks the DA shot on his pistol is still much more effective than someone who cannot get his gun to fire because the safety is on. Especially if, under stress, he doesn't realize it's just the safety lever and instead tries to perform an immediate action drill (which won't work).
For the safety to be truly effective, it has to be something you use when the gun is in hand, not just in your holster. That means practicing to become reflexive about taking it off and putting it back on as part of your movement from ready position to fire (particularly if your ready position is also your CQ/retention shooting position). Different people have different opinions about how to accomplish this or whether it's even the best way to run the gun, of course.
I'm also a huge believer that on a TDA gun, you should decock it every time you dismount from a target. Whenever I move, rest, etc., the gun goes back into DA mode.
NCPatrolAR
02-07-08, 17:30
I've taken a liking to the XS sights. What would you recommend?
Tspeis
I'm using the standard factory front night sight and a Burwell rear sight on all my M&Ps except for my work gun. If Heinie will ever get thier M&P sights out, I'd like to try them out as well.
I ran Big Dots on a 1911 for several months and found they provided me with nothing more than a decrease in accuracy. That and a ban from a forum where I'm no longer permitted to learn how to FIGHT.
Jay Cunningham
02-07-08, 17:39
That and a ban from a forum where I'm no longer permitted to learn how to FIGHT.
I hope you at least turned your shemagh back in.
I hope you at least turned your shemagh back in.
That sounds like something I'd never order from a Pakistani restaurant ...
So far I've had excellent results as far as accuracy is concerned. I've been running the small dot on my P229R for about 5 months. However, I'm certainly open to trying something new. Thanks for the info guys.
Tspeis
You can certainly wring accuracy out of the XS sights.
http://greent.com/webimg/aosights.jpg
It's just that it takes more time and effort than using more traditional notch & post sights, at least in my experience.
John_Wayne777
02-07-08, 21:18
So far I've had excellent results as far as accuracy is concerned. I've been running the small dot on my P229R for about 5 months. However, I'm certainly open to trying something new. Thanks for the info guys.
Tspeis
The appeal of the big dot is to put something really hard to ignore in the way of your eyeballs so that you can't help but see the front sight....
My experiments with the XS sights showed me that it worked alright at close range but anything at longer ranges was a real crapshoot as far as accuracy goes. Then again, I kind of suck, and sight preferences are varied among individuals.
To try and get the benefit the XS sights are going for without the accuracy issues when I needed more precision, I settled on using the loudest canary yellow model paint I could find on a traditional front sight. It works great. At close range when using a threat-focused/flash sight picture/whateveryouwannacallit all you do is put the yellow where you want the bullet to go. At longer ranges especially in marginal light it helps the front sight face stand out against the rear sight in aligning the shot.
...and I learned all of that without having to relinquish my pink Hello Kitty! shemagh.
John_Wayne777
02-07-08, 21:27
I do still have the mag disconnect safety in my M&P and will be getting it in my next one, as well. I consider it a no-brainer.
Could you expand on that a bit? I'm assuming you mean that you find the ability to drop the magazine and render the weapon harmless (Like if you are loosing the fight to retain the weapon) to be of some advantage, correct?
Robb Jensen
02-07-08, 21:36
You can certainly wring accuracy out of the XS sights.
http://greent.com/webimg/aosights.jpg
It's just that it takes more time and effort than using more traditional notch & post sights, at least in my experience.
I know of a certain controversial 'instructor' that questioned me, he was trying to tell me that XS sights are actually faster and then made a Youtube video of himself hitting a full size pepper popper out to 100yds (Woohoo!) in about 7-8 seconds to try and prove it! :eek:
If I owned a video camera I'd make a video of myself hitting a mini-popper (quite smaller than a pepper popper) in about 6-7 seconds with a timer (he didn't use one) while using a Warren sights on a Glock 17 at 150yds. A few members have seen me hit a similar size piece of steel in that time. He then locked my account as he didn't like being questioned on speed, however I do admit he did move quite quickly for that ditch in the desert.
John_Wayne777
02-07-08, 21:39
He then locked my account as he didn't like being questioned on speed, however I do admit he did move quite quickly for that ditch in the desert.
You mean you can't learn to FIGHT!!! anymore either?
Robb Jensen
02-07-08, 21:42
You mean you can't learn to FIGHT!!! anymore either?
:D Ummm....yep!
Could you expand on that a bit? I'm assuming you mean that you find the ability to drop the magazine and render the weapon harmless (Like if you are loosing the fight to retain the weapon) to be of some advantage, correct?
JW -- Yes, that is my main reason for having the mag disconnect. As I've mentioned here before, I'm neither a cop nor a soldier so take my views with a grain of salt. But in the years I've been dealing with LE and gun companies, I've come to believe that a mag disconnect is more likely to help than hinder. Even for a concealed carry civilian like me, there is the possibility I'll have to fight for the gun. Being able to disable it with one simple button press -- which I can perform even while still holstered up -- means a lesser chance of getting killed with my own gun. S&W has countless reports from officers whose lives have been saved this way.
Of course, we could just say it's a training issue and that real warriors never get disarmed, but I'm happy to wear a seatbelt when I drive, too.
Another minor benefit, especially with a SFA gun, is that by removing the magazine I can administratively handle the gun with less chance of an accident even if I brain fart and touch the trigger (or something else snakes its way into the trigger guard).
I carried Berettas and SIGs for years without a mag disconnect and certainly don't consider it to be critical must-have gear, but if you can get the capability without compromising reliability, durability, or shootability (cf., BHP) then why not?
however I do admit he did move quite quickly for that ditch in the desert.
Dude, those are fighting words right there, bro.
Jay Cunningham
02-07-08, 23:03
I am not a fan of the mag safety.
I guess I could list the reasons why but with the experience level here you all know what they would be.
Then again, I need to consider a different audience so I'll expound. :D
First, I am about to use the terms "tac load" and "reload with retention." I do not desire to get into a big semantic argument, so I'll simply define them as I know them:
reload with retention - performed from a empty gun
tac load - performed from a gun with a partial mag and a round in the chamber
A mag safety more or less defeats the point of performing the tac load that way.
Some teach stowing the partial or empty mag first, and some teach bringing the spare up to the gun and performing the swap.
Others will argue that the tac load itself is pointless, but that is a different thread.
John_Wayne777
02-08-08, 07:05
Even for a concealed carry civilian like me, there is the possibility I'll have to fight for the gun. Being able to disable it with one simple button press -- which I can perform even while still holstered up -- means a lesser chance of getting killed with my own gun. S&W has countless reports from officers whose lives have been saved this way.
Seems like a valid concern to me. I think a lot of civilian carriers don't really think through things like weapon retention because they assume it will never happen to them. I would certainly agree that they are much less likely to suffer a snatch attempt than a police officer, but I'm not a fan of saying "never" when it relates to self defense issues.
NCPatrolAR
02-08-08, 09:27
The magazine disconnect has never been a major issue for me. All of our duty guns have them and one of my personal M&Ps has a mag disconnect in it. The only place where it gets problematic is when doing certain dry fire drills during classes.
I know of a certain controversial 'instructor' that questioned me, he was trying to tell me that XS sights are actually faster and then made a Youtube video of himself hitting a full size pepper popper out to 100yds (Woohoo!) in about 7-8 seconds to try and prove it! :eek:
If I owned a video camera I'd make a video of myself hitting a mini-popper (quite smaller than a pepper popper) in about 6-7 seconds with a timer (he didn't use one) while using a Warren sights on a Glock 17 at 150yds. A few members have seen me hit a similar size piece of steel in that time. He then locked my account as he didn't like being questioned on speed, however I do admit he did move quite quickly for that ditch in the desert.
Can you hit the target while shooting between your legs, as I believe he did on one of those videos? ;)
Damn, SMGLee takes some good pictures. Give me one of these in black with no thumb safety and I'll be set. :)
http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/ss2008/huge/DSCN0135.jpg
Tspeis
however I do admit he did move quite quickly for that ditch in the desert.
After his car was shot up because he forgot to put it in gear to "get off the X" .
After his car was shot up because he forgot to put it in gear to "get off the X" .
Coming in 2008 from XS: The Big Dot Gear Shift
NCPatrolAR
02-08-08, 12:44
There is so going to be a thread full of people crying on another forum about this. I can already sense shemaghs getting bunched up
Anyways; I still want to get a 45m in FDE... just without the thumbsafety. :)
John_Wayne777
02-08-08, 13:26
Coming in 2008 from XS: The Big Dot Gear Shift
Ow......
That'll leave a mark.....
SIMPLYDYNAMIC
02-09-08, 00:47
Coming in 2008 from XS: The Big Dot Gear Shift
Is that the one that's really fat, dosent work, but once it goes, it goes really fast in the wrong direction?
Is that the one that's really fat, dosent work, but once it goes, it goes really fast in the wrong direction?
Dude. If you can't understand the obvious benefit of the Big Dot Gear Shift when it comes to fighting then I just can't help you.
Jay Cunningham
02-09-08, 02:45
Dude. If you can't understand the obvious benefit of the Big Dot Gear Shift when it comes to fighting then I just can't help you.
lolz!!11!
Ok kids, calm down... *wipes tear*
Alpha Sierra
02-09-08, 09:29
He then locked my account as he didn't like being questioned on speed
Same here except I got the lock for questioning the dogma that handgun fit is not important to speed and accuracy.
Whatever. No loss there.
I'm finally going to give into the M&P urge. This is a huge thing because I'm pretty much a 1911 only guy.
Me too! How are the triggers on these guns? I've never shot one.
Thanks
Jay Cunningham
02-09-08, 09:43
Me too! How are the triggers on these guns? I've never shot one.
Thanks
Out of the box, sort of crappy. They smooth out quite a bit through range time and dry-fire. The nature of their design allows for excellent and inexpensive trigger jobs to be performed. Bowie and Burrell are two that do this work.
Me too! How are the triggers on these guns?
They vary considerably. But I'd agree with thekatar, the majority of them aren't so good. When I bought mine, I chose from about half a dozen pistols at the gun shop so it wasn't bad but it was a little challenging. I called it "the best seven-stage trigger on Earth."
The three major issues that trigger pull cognoscenti will find:
gritty ... as thekatar points out, this will work itself out over time.
overtravel ... many M&P triggers suffer from significant overtravel, leading many people to complain the guns "shoot low and left." Once you get used to it, it's not that bad but most people will want a trigger job to eliminate it.
weak indistinct reset ... while the M&P has a pretty short reset, there is almost no perceptible "click" that you can hear or feel when it resets. Sort of like a BHP reset, but shorter. Easily addressed with a trigger job. Also, the trigger return spring is weak and some people have opted for a heavier spring to increase the forward push of the trigger.
A quality action job for the M&P will cost $50-60. It's also easy enough to do that many people follow the instructions floating round the internet (Powerpoint presentation) and just Do It Yourself.
YukonGlocker
02-09-08, 11:20
...Also, the trigger return spring is weak and some people have opted for a heavier spring to increase the forward push of the trigger...
I would say this is more the exception. The best thing a heavier trigger spring will do is provide a more distinct reset, along with a heavier pull, which is usually negated by the trigger job. For most purposes, the factory trigger spring is just fine. And many full competition triggers are using a lighter trigger spring.:)
From what Hilton Yam has stated on 10-8 forums, the recent production versions of the M&P45 come with much improved triggers on them that he states dont need any kind of trigger work at all. I have not gotten the chance to try out a newer M&P45 to see for myself. Both of the two M&P45's that he was referring to were in the MPU prefix serial #.
Out of the box, sort of crappy. They smooth out quite a bit through range time and dry-fire. The nature of their design allows for excellent and inexpensive trigger jobs to be performed. Bowie and Burrell are two that do this work.
Thanks guys, I'm really interested in seeing the mid-sized .45!
Steelshooter
02-21-08, 21:31
The newer M&P's of all calibers have greatly improved out of the box triggers. Also a darker and more even melonite coating.
Is that the one that's really fat, dosent work, but once it goes, it goes really fast in the wrong direction?
That'd be it yes. I visited 'that place' a few times and never went back. I guess I'll never be able to 'fight' :o
On topic: the mid size .45 looks very appealing, but damn .45 is sure expensive these days. Anyone want to sell me a Dillon cheap? :cool:
I thought of getting the full size one, but the mid-size is calling my name. just have to convince my Dad to let me get one.:(
Cyrus
Good thread, even better burns. Them some fighting words right there. :D
By any chance, does anyone have any more pics of the M&P 45M or C?
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