View Full Version : Will a steel guide rod in a Glock cause extra stress on the barrel lugs?
Magic_Salad0892
09-13-12, 06:19
Or will the nitride treatment make the metal hard enough (harder than the guide rod metal) for that not to be an issue?
Would it be worse with an SS (non nitride) and SS guide rod like some dudes are running?
http://www.realguns.com/archives/146.htm
I asked because the author of the above article had a barrel lug bust, and he was using an SS guide rod, and metal frame. (On a Glock. Wtf?)
Straight Shooter
09-13-12, 07:44
Ive been running one on my G21 since 2006, no problems.
Littlelebowski
09-13-12, 07:47
Overthinking. Leave the stock one in and dry fire more.
The only stress a replacement guide rod will cause is to your wallet. Unless your really have a specific need to tune a cartridge load to your specific pistol via fiddling with recoil springs (and concurrently really know what you're doing, and why) stick with the OEM captured recoil spring assembly. The ones that Glock has been using for the past several years have been made with Zytel, which is significantly stiffer and more heat (and chip)-resistant that the previous ones used.
Best, Jon
I cannot answer the OP's question, but some food for thought.
At the last Glock Armorers class, it was advised (on a GEN 3 gun) to change the recoil assembly every 2-3K. On the S&W M&P (and most every other gun on the market with a metal recoil assembly) it is 5K.
I am kind of the opinion that the plastic recoil assembly is not as effective as a steel one (and is why Glock keeps lowering the replacement numbers from NEVER to 10k, 5-7K, 2-3K).
For the record, I have always run either the ISMI recoil assembly or some other metal recoil assembly with never a problem.
One last thought, most pistol manufacturers offer a recoil assembly for 9mm and 40 (two different spring tensions). Glock does not (they are all the same). I personally think this does the 40 caliber Glock's no favors.
C4
I used to work at a range that rented Glocks. They saw no maintenance until/if they failed. They were rotated every 2-3 years. I did see two or three of the factory plastic recoil guide rods shear off where it attaches into the bottom of the barrel. I ran an SS guide rod in my 19 until I switched to the M&P. You just have to be careful about spring tension in the aftermarket guide rod assemblies.
Stress on the lug comes from the loads applied to the lug. Changing the guide rod will not change the forces applied. The guide rod locates the spring, nothing more.
Steel guide rods are a waste of money IMO. The stock revision 1 guide rods are stiffer than the old ones and last longer.
Guns-up.50
09-13-12, 08:58
I cannot answer the OP's question, but some food for thought.
At the last Glock Armorers class, it was advised (on a GEN 3 gun) to change the recoil assembly every 2-3K. On the S&W M&P (and most every other gun on the market with a metal recoil assembly) it is 5K.
I am kind of the opinion that the plastic recoil assembly is not as effective as a steel one (and is why Glock keeps lowering the replacement numbers from NEVER to 10k, 5-7K, 2-3K).
For the record, I have always run either the ISMI recoil assembly or some other metal recoil assembly with never a problem.
One last thought, most pistol manufacturers offer a recoil assembly for 9mm and 40 (two different spring tensions). Glock does not (they are all the same). I personally think this does the 40 caliber Glock's no favors.
C4
First I gun Glocks almost exclusively, but do you think glock may lower the rnd count to increase products sold? At $6-8 its quite cheap for one shooter , but if 2-3000 change a year? 18k just in guide rods.
On another note many of us have shot past the recommended change point with no issues what does this say about factory rec'.? maybe glock is trying to be on the safe side? Older glock shooters may have more incite
First I gun Glocks almost exclusively, but do you think glock may lower the rnd count to increase products sold? At $6-8 its quite cheap for one shooter , but if 2-3000 change a year? 18k just in guide rods.
On another note many of us have shot past the recommended change point with no issues what does this say about factory rec'.? maybe glock is trying to be on the safe side? Older glock shooters may have more incite
I do not. I think they are seeing things break and have realized that the recoil assembly plays a SUPER important part in the pistols durability.
We all have used springs well past their prime and noted that the gun "ran." The point isn't that, the point is, what stress are you causing to the weapon (that you cannot see) that will cause a part breakage later on down the road.
C4
Guns-up.50
09-13-12, 09:33
I do not. I think they are seeing things break and have realized that the recoil assembly plays a SUPER important part in the pistols durability.
We all have used springs well past their prime and noted that the gun "ran." The point isn't that, the point is, what stress are you causing to the weapon (that you cannot see) that will cause a part breakage later on down the road.
C4
thanks, for the record I meant no Ill fame for glocks I use and will continue to use them either way..
thanks, for the record I meant no Ill fame for glocks I use and will continue to use them either way..
Understand. I personally don't care what recoil assembly people use (don't sell either kind), but was just giving some thoughts to the subject.
C4
Magic_Salad0892
09-13-12, 10:18
I wonder if using an SS/Tungsten guide rod would give better accuracy due to a more consistant surface for the barrel lug to index to.
... Thoughts?
Littlelebowski
09-13-12, 10:24
I wonder if using an SS/Tungsten guide rod would give better accuracy due to a more consistant surface for the barrel lug to index to.
... Thoughts?
You. Are. Overthinking. This. Dryfire.
The flat recoil spring of the Gen 3 glocks is very high quality and durable, for the 9 mm. I never understood WHY they used the same unit on the 40 with the much larger recoil impulse.
But the plastic guide always struck me as weak, specially with the retention design. Never had a problem but I would prefer a steel guide.
I see the new Gen 4 recoil springs are round wire (so that the two springs slide easily in this telescoping design). Does anybody knows if the guide is polymer or steel?
I wonder if using an SS/Tungsten guide rod would give better accuracy due to a more consistant surface for the barrel lug to index to.
... Thoughts?
I have one (currently running it in a GEN 2 G19). No issues, but I cannot say that I have improved accuracy.
C4
Magic_Salad0892
09-13-12, 10:39
You. Are. Overthinking. This. Dryfire.
I get what you're getting at, and you're right. Shoot more.
But I can't not know.
And are you saying it wouldn't be cool if it worked?
I gotta see if I can make it even better without compromising reliability.
The guide rod still floats freely the opposite direction of the lug with only the spring force resisting. Would not matter.
The guide rod still floats freely the opposite direction of the lug with only the spring force resisting. Would not matter.
Look at you using that Engineering degree! Your momma would be so proud! :D
C4
Magic_Salad0892
09-13-12, 10:51
The guide rod still floats freely the opposite direction of the lug with only the spring force resisting. Would not matter.
With accuracy, or shearing a lug?
Thanks for chiming in by the way.
Hopefully my questions aren't stupid. I realize they're pointless. But they are based on something.
I wonder if using an SS/Tungsten guide rod would give better accuracy due to a more consistant surface for the barrel lug to index to.
... Thoughts?
No. Not in any "REAL" measurable way. Unless there is something i am missing in your statement, going from an injection molded zytel rod to a rod that has the rear surface of the rod machined flat will not make a significant difference. On paper it will since you are improving tolerances but the naked eye will not see the difference. Hell, i doubt even strict testing in a ransom rest would show any improvement and if it did, who cares. Glocks are accurate as hell out of the box...
IF you want to improve accuracy look into fitting a barrel which involves tuning the lockup. You will get farther going this route than chasing a "matched" recoil lug and guide rod.
I know some of you are reading my comments about tungsten guide rods and such and thinking WTF is he thinking buying that stupid crap. :blink:
Truth is that I buy a lot of "stupid crap" just to see what it does and doesn't do. This allows me to have an educated opinion (instead of a wild ass guess) and provide feedback to others.
For those that have been to my shop, there are two large boxes full of stuff that I have tried and then dropped. Someone actually went through the one box and found that they could build two complete AR's (one in 5.56 and the other in 9mm) with FF rails, high end FCG, optics, slings, etc. :D
C4
With accuracy, or shearing a lug?
Thanks for chiming in by the way.
Hopefully my questions aren't stupid. I realize they're pointless. But they are based on something.
Both. As for the lug shearing the guide rod can only apply as much force as the spring can at any given compressed length, not sure if that, even at a high cycle count, would be of any concern.
IF you want to improve accuracy look into fitting a barrel which involves tuning the lockup. You will get farther going this route than chasing a "matched" recoil lug and guide rod.
This. The problem you get into though with guns that already shoot well (2-3" groups with combat sights) is that a fitted barrel MIGHT allow the gun to shoot .5-1" groups, but you cannot take advantage of it with combat oriented sights IMHO.
C4
I know some of you are reading my comments about tungsten guide rods and such and thinking WTF is he thinking buying that stupid crap. :blink:
Truth is that I buy a lot of "stupid crap" just to see what it does and doesn't do. This allows me to have an educated opinion (instead of a wild ass guess) and provide feedback to others.
For those that have been to my shop, there are two large boxes full of stuff that I have tried and then dropped. Someone actually went through the one box and found that they could build two complete AR's (one in 5.56 and the other in 9mm) with FF rails, high end FCG, optics, slings, etc. :D
C4
Grant, anyone that would judge you for owning a tungsten rod is a retard and quite frankly, i dont think you needed to post what you just did.
We ALL experiment with things when we get a wild hair up our ass to try something different.
The key between a savvy customer/shooter/person in general is the research that they do prior to and leading up to their purchase. Having access to great information databases like certain online forums and SME's has saved ME a boat load of money. Still, EVERYONE makes purchases that ultimately they cant really justify since there is no quantifiable gain.
Such is life! :)
Grant, anyone that would judge you for owning a tungsten rod is a retard and quite frankly, i dont think you needed to post what you just did.
We ALL experiment with things when we get a wild hair up our ass to try something different.
The key between a savvy customer/shooter/person in general is the research that they do prior to and leading up to their purchase. Having access to great information databases like certain online forums and SME's has saved ME a boat load of money. Still, EVERYONE makes purchases that ultimately they cant really justify since there is no quantifiable gain.
Such is life! :)
True you are Sir, but I am sure a blogger is just waiting to write about me encouraging people to buy ghey crap for their Glock. ;)
C4
VooDoo6Actual
09-13-12, 11:03
I know some of you are reading my comments about tungsten guide rods and such and thinking WTF is he thinking buying that stupid crap. :blink:
Truth is that I buy a lot of "stupid crap" just to see what it does and doesn't do. This allows me to have an educated opinion (instead of a wild ass guess) and provide feedback to others.
For those that have been to my shop, there are two large boxes full of stuff that I have tried and then dropped. Someone actually went through the one box and found that they could build two complete AR's (one in 5.56 and the other in 9mm) with FF rails, high end FCG, optics, slings, etc. :D
C4
Bravo. Most people, dealers/vendors would never do this. The clients & customers ALL benefit from that knowledge/experience/wisdom of your efforts.
Magic_Salad0892
09-13-12, 11:09
Both. As for the lug shearing the guide rod can only apply as much force as the spring can at any given compressed length, not sure if that, even at a high cycle count, would be of any concern.
But would that same force driving back a harder material make any difference?
I know what you're saying, and it totally makes sense, but it's not the force that I'm wondering about. It's the density.
And Magsz you're probably right about the fitted barrel thing. I'd kind of be interested in doing that. If somebody made carbon steel match barrels with 13.5x1mm LH threads. For a G19.
And Grant, the reason I wanted you in this thread is because I know you have bought hella random accessories for hella random guns and experimented, and have a valid opinion.
I partially started this thread to see what we can learn, and because I'm trying to get some real technical threads started so we can learn, and experiment together as a community.
Frankly I think there are a lot of good questions about guns out there that haven't been asked yet. This one I'm super curious about, as it pertains to me.
Same for training. (And I should be posting some training questions soon.)
Now let me show you guys something from an old article that prompted this question, kinda...
http://www.realguns.com/archives/145.htm
Read both pages of that article. Now, I know I talked shit about it in the past, but give it a read.
He keeps mentioning that he was getting better groups with different guide rod/spring combinations, which made me think of barrel lockup.
Also the T.R. Graham Match Grade Slide lock actually did help my Glocks out a bit. (Not during running drills, but slow fire groups/mechanical accuracy.) They helped not with accuracy but with mean radius of groups, and consitancy. So I figured there might be some merit in the study.
Hence. This thread.
Thanks for posting, you guys.
But would that same force driving back a harder material make any difference?
I know what you're saying, and it totally makes sense, but it's not the force that I'm wondering about. It's the density.
How does the density matter? I guess it is better to ask you what line of thought do you have where the density does matter?
He keeps mentioning that he was getting better groups with different guide rod/spring combinations, which made me think of barrel lockup.
Probably a spring rate issue and tweaking the spring forces the guide rod change. Changing the spring rate, while impacting reliability, can change the slide speed and changing the slide speed will ultimately effect how the barrel locks up.
Magic_Salad0892
09-13-12, 11:41
How does the density matter? I guess it is better to ask you what line of thought do you have where the density does matter?
This is gonna be a stupid comparison, I'm letting you know now, but here goes...
Punching a wooden wall a few times doesn't hurt. Punching a brick wall with the same force hurts like a bitch.
So my logic is the metal barrel slamming on the plastic isn't going to hurt either one of them, but it slamming on the metal could. And due to a change in materials from the original design may or may not cause uneven stress on the barrel lug.
However, due to dudes running SS guide rods for thousands of rounds with no problem obviously makes me wrong. But I'm trying to figure out why I'm wrong.
Plus Todd Green's 77k round or something indurance tests with a poly RSA had no malfs induced by the RSA (that I can recall) so obviously the poly assembly is strong enough.
Probably a spring rate issue and tweaking the spring forces the guide rod change. Changing the spring rate, while impacting reliability, can change the slide speed and changing the slide speed will ultimately effect how the barrel locks up.
Bam. There's the answer I may have been looking for regarding the accuracy question. Bitchin'. So that's why Gen4 Glocks showed better accuracy than their Gen3 counterparts. Stronger springs changing slide velocity. Which then impacted reliability with 115 gr. training ammo. Not the fact that the dual captioned recoil spring had a larger diameter which theoretically (in my non engineer mind) could have had a larger bearing surface for the barrel to lock up to.
Am I on the right path?
I cannot answer the OP's question, but some food for thought.
At the last Glock Armorers class, it was advised (on a GEN 3 gun) to change the recoil assembly every 2-3K. On the S&W M&P (and most every other gun on the market with a metal recoil assembly) it is 5K.
I am kind of the opinion that the plastic recoil assembly is not as effective as a steel one (and is why Glock keeps lowering the replacement numbers from NEVER to 10k, 5-7K, 2-3K).
For the record, I have always run either the ISMI recoil assembly or some other metal recoil assembly with never a problem.
One last thought, most pistol manufacturers offer a recoil assembly for 9mm and 40 (two different spring tensions). Glock does not (they are all the same). I personally think this does the 40 caliber Glock's no favors.
C4
interesting. I tend to get 5-7k out of a guide rod spring before it fails the "back into battery with the trigger pulled" test. I've never had a guide rod break, just the spring fatigues.
the 3k interval might make sense on a 40 cal. all of my experience is on a glock 19.
This is gonna be a stupid comparison, I'm letting you know now, but here goes...
Punching a wooden wall a few times doesn't hurt. Punching a brick wall with the same force hurts like a bitch.
So my logic is the metal barrel slamming on the plastic isn't going to hurt either one of them, but it slamming on the metal could. And due to a change in materials from the original design may or may not cause uneven stress on the barrel lug.
However, due to dudes running SS guide rods for thousands of rounds with no problem obviously makes me wrong. But I'm trying to figure out why I'm wrong.
Plus Todd Green's 77k round or something indurance tests with a poly RSA had no malfs induced by the RSA (that I can recall) so obviously the poly assembly is strong enough.
Would punching an aluminum block feel any better than a steel block? Density and hardness are not as directly related as you are thinking.
Now for the relationship between the guide rod and the lug... They don't separate at all. The guide rod merely locates the spring and keeps it where it needs to be. Glocks have been fired for 1,000 rounds (reportedly) without a guide rod and only a spring inside. The way the gun works supports this claim. The spring has almost nowhere else to go.
Bam. There's the answer I may have been looking for regarding the accuracy question. Bitchin'. So that's why Gen4 Glocks showed better accuracy than their Gen3 counterparts. Stronger springs changing slide velocity. Which then impacted reliability with 115 gr. training ammo. Not the fact that the dual captioned recoil spring had a larger diameter which theoretically (in my non engineer mind) could have had a larger bearing surface for the barrel to lock up to.
Am I on the right path?
The bearing surface of the guide rod shouldn't matter at all. A stiffer spring *can* result in a more consistent lock up but it may not.
Littlelebowski
09-13-12, 12:45
True you are Sir, but I am sure a blogger is just waiting to write about me encouraging people to buy ghey crap for their Glock. ;)
Just ask politely....
I used to use Wolff rods and springs in my Glocks with no problems for a couple of years.
All my Glocks are back to OE springs now. I've never had any spring break on a Glock, but I do over-maintain 'em. I put in a new set of springs and cups about every 5K rounds just to keep everything fresh.
I usually drive a fairly long way matches/classes and I like my stuff to work when I get there... Springs are cheap.
Heavy Metal
09-13-12, 22:47
The Gen 4's are different Grant. Pick up a G4 19 and a G4 23, place them side by side.
Pull the slide back on both.
The 23 is sprung MUCH heavier!
I cannot answer the OP's question, but some food for thought.
At the last Glock Armorers class, it was advised (on a GEN 3 gun) to change the recoil assembly every 2-3K. On the S&W M&P (and most every other gun on the market with a metal recoil assembly) it is 5K.
I am kind of the opinion that the plastic recoil assembly is not as effective as a steel one (and is why Glock keeps lowering the replacement numbers from NEVER to 10k, 5-7K, 2-3K).
For the record, I have always run either the ISMI recoil assembly or some other metal recoil assembly with never a problem.
One last thought, most pistol manufacturers offer a recoil assembly for 9mm and 40 (two different spring tensions). Glock does not (they are all the same). I personally think this does the 40 caliber Glock's no favors.
C4
Heavy Metal
09-13-12, 22:49
Anybody ever notice the M&P has a radius cut at the base of that lug?
HMMMMM.............
An Undocumented Worker
09-13-12, 23:24
Anybody else notice, that wasn't a factory barrel? I wouldn't expect a hammer forged barrel to fail in that manner.
The Gen 4's are different Grant. Pick up a G4 19 and a G4 23, place them side by side.
Pull the slide back on both.
The 23 is sprung MUCH heavier!
Yep, I am aware of that (which is why I was talking about the GEN 3 guns).
C4
Magic_Salad0892
09-14-12, 09:39
Anybody else notice, that wasn't a factory barrel? I wouldn't expect a hammer forged barrel to fail in that manner.
Would a hammer forged barrel and a standard barrel even have metallurgical differences in that part? As far as I know it's only the bore that is directly affected by that.
An Undocumented Worker
09-14-12, 21:10
Would a hammer forged barrel and a standard barrel even have metallurgical differences in that part? As far as I know it's only the bore that is directly affected by that.
I would believe so, as the whole piece of steel is forged, then turned down and machined. Anyhow that locking lug failed with the grain direction of the piece of steel it was made out of. Something does not seem right at all about that failure, as structural parts should not just fracture so cleanly and easily.
Faulty batch of steel, faulty heat treatment, inclusions, who knows.
If I have examined my Glock correctly.. The guide rod doesn't interface with the barrel when the slide and frame are assembled. The cutout on the forward lug is there to locate the RSA till the slide is assembled on the frame. Generally, the rear face of the RSA locates on the tunnel just forward of the locking block and doesn't touch the barrel at all when everything is put together. My assesment is, if the locking cam lug fractured away from the barrel, there must have been either a significant impact on the cam and locking block, or there was a latent defect in the mettalurgy of that area of the barrel.. The Tennifer process can over harden metal to the point of brittleness if overdone and, if hard recoil or heavier recoil spring loading were present, it accelerated the impact on the lug and caused the failure.
Anecdotal evidence only: I have witnessed three OEM plastic guide rods fail. Models 22, 23 and 19.
I have more faith in steel than polymer in that application.
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