View Full Version : Help me pick a budget AR for new shooter
My brother wants to buy his first rifle. He's in his 30's and has been around guns, has a 9mm and 12 gauge, but this will be his first rifle. It'll be for very occasional shooting and just to have in case the need ever arose to protect himself (natural disaster/SHTF/etc).
My research has been geared towards top end stuff so I'm a bit ignorant on the budget/basic carbines.
Like I said, he'll rarely shoot it- probably won't see 100 rounds a year. Not worried about something top tier that'll take 25,000 rounds.
We was looking at the S&W M&P 15 sport for $699 at sports authority. I was going to sway him towards a Colt 6920 or something like that. I started out in AR's with a RRA for $750 a decade ago, and that rifle is still going strong.
No quad rail needed. I have an extra MOE forend and AR handle/peep sight to put on the flat top until he can afford optics.
Would like to keep it under $1000. The family is all chipping in to make it his Christmas present.
Thoughts?
My brother wants to buy his first rifle. He's in his 30's and has been around guns, has a 9mm and 12 gauge, but this will be his first rifle. It'll be for very occasional shooting and just to have in case the need ever arose to protect himself (natural disaster/SHTF/etc).
My research has been geared towards top end stuff so I'm a bit ignorant on the budget/basic carbines.
Like I said, he'll rarely shoot it- probably won't see 100 rounds a year. Not worried about something top tier that'll take 25,000 rounds.
We was looking at the S&W M&P 15 sport for $699 at sports authority. I was going to sway him towards a Colt 6920 or something like that. I started out in AR's with a RRA for $750 a decade ago, and that rifle is still going strong.
No quad rail needed. I have an extra MOE forend and AR handle/peep sight to put on the flat top until he can afford optics.
Would like to keep it under $1000. The family is all chipping in to make it his Christmas present.
Thoughts?
The S&W SPORT is a good value, but not at $700 + tax.
6920's can be found for around $1k so that is really the best choice IMHO.
C4
I was going to sway him towards a Colt 6920 or something like that.
I think you're going in the right direction, right here^
Xmas morning at your house. Brother....No F*#king Way a COLT!!! I love you MAN!!!
CrazyFingers
09-13-12, 10:08
It'll be for very occasional shooting
If you'd ended your sentence there, then pretty much any AR pattern rifle would work, whether it followed the typically civilian-legal sections of the TDP or not.
But when you add this:
and just to have in case the need ever arose to protect himself (natural disaster/SHTF/etc).
Then you move into the level of Colt, Bravo Company, Daniel Defense, Noveske, etc.
Which, frankly, really aren't that much more expensive than a dirt-clod-shooter toy in the long run.
Please do your brother a favor and get him a decent rifle. If he decides he really doesn't like it, then it will have better resale value.
If he decides he really does like it, then he'll have a quality firearm that will give him years of service.
If he decides he really doesn't like it but hangs on to it "just in case", then if the worst does happen he'll have a quality rifle that he can count on to defend himself and his family.
Other than a couple hundred bucks for the initial purchase, there's really no downside to buying a quality rifle.
I guarantee you that five years from now, you will not look back on your purchase and think "Man, I really wish I'd spent $200 less and bought my brother a cheaper, less reliable rifle."
Would be a sweet Christmas. Trying to convince our parents to chip in too. But they don't want to seeing as he owes them big $$$. Might just have to opt for some Remington 870 accessories for his shotgun. BUT if we do go AR, I'll get the 6920....
We was looking at the S&W M&P 15 sport for $699 at sports authority. ?
The Smith costs less than the Colt because it sucks more.
Please consider selecting one from this list:
Colt
Daniel Defense
Noveske
I know guys here are going to have a heart attack if we do not include BCM on the list, so let's include them too (although they need a new logo).
Then in 20-ish years, Brother's son...'No F*#king Way! Dad's COLT!!!' and a few decades later, '...No F*#king Way! Grandpa's COLT!!!'
Daniel Defense ... Can get one for 1300 -1500 ... Good to go
The Smith costs less than the Colt because it sucks more.
Please consider selecting one from this list:
Colt
Daniel Defense
Noveske
I know guys here are going to have a heart attack if we do not include BCM on the list, so let's include them too (although they need a new logo).
Huh? What does a logo have to do with anything?
Perhaps once he has it he'll shoot it more.
Another vote for the Pony!
Huh? What does a logo have to do with anything?
To me it is unsightly.
If you don't mind using used parts, a decent rifle can be assembled fairly cheap. Shop on the EE here and other boards for decent deals. I am currently putting together a budget build on the cheap for shits and giggles and this is what I aquired.
Colt 14.5 complete upper for $200.00
Complete Colt lower for $275.00
New BCM BCG for $110.00
Mod 4 CH for $30.00
The upper I got here in the EE is completly assembled and exchanged my 9mm Colt upper reciever only plus $200. It was complete with gas tube, used barrel with fantastic bore, new unfired upper reciever, F marked FSB. The lower I got here also and it's complete with Colt 6 position stock for $275.00. I'm just waiting for it to get to me now. I picked up a BCM new unfired BCG for $110.00 shipped from the EE here also. My total out of pocket for this Colt project is only $615.00 and it doesn't get much better than that! If you want a new rifle, the Colt 6920, BCM or DDM4 is your best option IMHO.
fallenromeo
09-13-12, 12:41
Colt of BCM.
DD is a great company, but I would leave DD off this list as they are a little more expensive than the Colt or BCM and you said you don't need a quad rail.
Xmas morning at your house. Brother....No F*#king Way a COLT!!! I love you MAN!!!
Then in 20-ish years, Brother's son...'No F*#king Way! Dad's COLT!!!' and a few decades later, '...No F*#king Way! Grandpa's COLT!!!'
The above comments make for a very solid argument for a Colt AR. It doesn't matter if he is just a beginner or that he will only shoot 100 rounds per year, the quality of the Colt will provide him with a certain pride of ownership and may encourage him to become a skilled shooter with his new rifle.
If you have the where-with-all, you could build a fairly solid AR for under $1k. However, out of the box I'd agree with what others have said: Colt, DD, Noveske
Just sell him your RRA.
This was my very first thought until I saw the family is paying. If you can figure a way to do it, talk them into paying you a few hundred bucks for your RRA. Then you have money towards replacing it with whatever you want.
If they want to buy new, Colts are the easiet option. Youll be a little over the $1000 budget, but piece of mind is worth it. Or you can try to find a BCM blemished lower and BCM upper.
Who knows, if he ends up shooting it as little as you say,he may just end up selling it down the line. You could but it back at a used price.
Over the summer I built a PSA rifle from
Parts every time they had a sale going.
Lower parts kit with stock and buffer for 69.99, lower for 49.99, PSA upper for 279.99 bolt and charging Handel for 100.
If you can reach for the Colt, go for it. That said, are you set on an AR15? $700 doesn't get you very much in the AR15 world, but it'll go far towards a Mini-14 or AK pattern rifle. Just a thought.
If your going to buy something for 700- 900 why make it crap? I dunno my thoughts and this is just me if I am spending 700-900 I can save, sell or budget another 200-500 to get a great reputable AR like the Colt or the DD... Or like a previous poster wrote buy a full upper and full lower. I was talked out of a STAG but I still like their complete lowers. I was only talked out because of the specifics of what I wanted and the guy who schooled me on my first AR directed me to the DD..
A quality Ar-15 under a $1000 is plausible. I would look at either colt or lmt. Gunbroker is a good source to find great deals on used or even new rifles. I bought a NIB lmt lower for 360 shipped and a complete lmt upper for $600. The total was just under $1000. Optics can be had at a later date, practice with iron sights to gain the fundamentals. Good luck
Just re-hashing what's been said, but I also have a friend in the market for an evil black gun. His problem is, he wants to join the rifleman's club I belong to and participate in competition. This demands high volumes of fire, both for practice and during matches, and also demands reliability if you want to compete. Malfunctions do not lead to winning, unfortunately. Why is that a problem? He's trying to get out of it cheap, and I'll tell you what I've told him:
I can get him a lightly used rifle or carbine length for 650-700. PSA, Spikes, and their lot crop up constantly on a local firearms forum. Granted, it saves you 300 bucks over a Colt. My argument (with him) is: How hard is it to save 300 bucks, be patient, and get a rifle that's almost guaranteed to run perfectly out of the box, sending a ton of money downrange before it needs anything maintenance-wise, and should he decide he wants to sell, will be gone almost immediately for nearly what he paid for it?
OR
Save 200 or 300 bucks and get something you're not sure will run or not, and you're going to either
A- have a hard time getting rid of if you want to upgrade or just get out of it
or B- have a failure in a sub-par part (bcg for instance) and be almost as deep financially after replacement as if you'd purchased the Colt or BCM to start with.
Just food for thought. I'm by no means bashing the cheaper rifles, I simply look at it from my wallet's perspective. I'd rather spend a bit more up front and have something that gives me options (ie resale value) than save money and be stuck with a rifle I'm not happy with.
I would Call the folks at Palmento State and start with one of their deal of the day uppers and just let things snowball from there. I have not owned a PSA but two of my shooting buddies have built PSAs and they run like champs.
Or
Shop the EE for a bcm/colt upper and build a lower.
Doc. Holiday
09-14-12, 10:34
I'm not going to lie, when one of my best friends told us all that he was going to buy the M&P Sport, we all looked at him like he was an idiot. We all begged him to save his money and get something a little better.
Well, he ended up getting one. I will be the first to admit that I was wrong. I was REALLY impressed with what you could do with the sport. He used PMC Bronze 55gr to break it in, and after about 500 rounds he started to try wolf through it and he has never had a hiccup with it. It's really accurate and again, it hasn't jammed on him after his first 150 rounds.
So I would say as long as you keep that thing spotless and are a little patient with the first 100 rounds or so, you would find that you have a decent gun for $600-$700. And this is coming from a guy that has owned Noveske's, Colts, Bushmasters, LWRC's, and POF's.
Well after doing some more talking with my little bro, we decided that the M&P sport is probably right for him. He's in Hawaii, on a very very tight budget and the range is over an hour drive away. So he won't be shooting much at all. With my discount, I can get a sport for $555 when they come back into stock. I know colts are better, but I don't think they're double-the-price better. If the sport shoots okay, then that's all he needs.
Try to remember that statement when the N. Koreans or Chinese are invading the little islands in the middle of nowhere to establish a supply base :)
On a different note, I thought HI was stupid restrictive on EBRs?
EBR? Something battle rifle? No, they're not restrictive on type- but you do need a "permit to aquire" with photos/fingerprints/police station approval. Then when you do get one, you have to register it with them after a 14 day waiting period! Sucks too because in a state of emergency, they can confiscate (or try to) all weapons. At least they used to, but maybe they repealed that one. Can't remember. The price for living in paradise.
http://www.honolulupd.org/info/gunlaw.htm
uncle money bags
09-14-12, 14:33
EBR? Something battle rifle? No, they're not restrictive on type- but you do need a "permit to aquire" with photos/fingerprints/police station approval. Then when you do get one, you have to register it with them after a 14 day waiting period! Sucks too because in a state of emergency, they can confiscate (or try to) all weapons. At least they used to, but maybe they repealed that one. Can't remember. The price for living in paradise.
http://www.honolulupd.org/info/gunlaw.htm
Judging from the first 95% of your post I would submit that it is not paradise.
Judging from the first 95% of your post I would submit that it is not paradise.
Ha! Well the weather is nice. I lived there 6 years (stationed twice). Much better to be back in the gun friendly state of Virginia.
I also checked the laws in hawaii again- no mag limit of rifles, just handguns which are 10 rounds. Doing more than that is a class C Felony!
Grand58742
09-14-12, 14:43
I was surprised at the quality of the S&W Sport myself after getting the opportunity to look one over. It's an enigma of sorts with the MP barrel, properly staked gas key, MPI bolt, mil-spec RE...then to turn around and save a buck or two on not putting the dust cover on? Just an odd thing.
Anyway, difference in having a sometimes shooter that you know for a fact the company skipped out of a couple of items and "what else might be lurking?" or going with a known company for good things and supporting a site sponsor as well?
BCM Blem lower at G&R Tactical (with factory everything + standard M4 stock) $305
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-C
BCM M4 profile upper 16 inch with standard M4 handguards, BCM BCG, standard charging handle and A2 flash suppressor $630.95
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=UPR-BCM
Pick up a Magpul rear sight off any number of online vendors for around $55
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Magpul+MBUS+rear+sight
Total cost for everything minus ammo and mags = $990.95
And you avoid the federal excise tax by buying separate.
Not knocking S&W as for the value, they have a great deal. But if it's my "might need it for the defense of the family" use? Go with known good quality and help support a small business at the same time that's also known for good quality.
TacticalSledgehammer
09-14-12, 15:05
With a budget in mind probably PSA or Spikes. My dealer has PSA's at $725.
I put together a nice psa at around $750 and have no complaints with that rifle. My DD and BCM are nicer, sure, but they cost more also. I think PSA is a good way to look if you absolutely need to stay under 1k
Over the summer I built a PSA rifle from
Parts every time they had a sale going.
Lower parts kit with stock and buffer for 69.99, lower for 49.99, PSA upper for 279.99 bolt and charging Handel for 100.
if it has to be cheap PSA is probably the best bet.
could always toss together a PSA lower and put a nice upper on it too. the upper is where you really need the quality... bolt, barrel, gas port size etc.
My brother wants to buy his first rifle. He's in his 30's and has been around guns, has a 9mm and 12 gauge, but this will be his first rifle. It'll be for very occasional shooting and just to have in case the need ever arose to protect himself (natural disaster/SHTF/etc).
My research has been geared towards top end stuff so I'm a bit ignorant on the budget/basic carbines.
Like I said, he'll rarely shoot it- probably won't see 100 rounds a year. Not worried about something top tier that'll take 25,000 rounds.
We was looking at the S&W M&P 15 sport for $699 at sports authority. I was going to sway him towards a Colt 6920 or something like that. I started out in AR's with a RRA for $750 a decade ago, and that rifle is still going strong.
No quad rail needed. I have an extra MOE forend and AR handle/peep sight to put on the flat top until he can afford optics.
Would like to keep it under $1000. The family is all chipping in to make it his Christmas present.
Thoughts?
Colt... Just a "tad" more and no regrets! JMO.. Ron
Traveshamockery
09-14-12, 16:30
Palmetto State Armory just emailed that they're offering their base M4 clone with Aimpoint PRO and MBUS rear sight for $999. I know the jury's still out on PSA, but that's hard to beat for a beginner on a budget.
Pistol Shooter
09-14-12, 16:34
Another vote for the 6920 here. Well worth saving a bit more for.
gunfighter48
09-14-12, 17:14
I've owned a S&W Sport AR for over a year now and have shot over 2400 rounds through it without any failures of any type. At 100 yards if I do my part it shoots sub MOA with PMC 55gr and M193 55gr ammo. Their quality is excellent for the price and there is not anything wrong with them. As for the dust cover and FA I've never needed them on the ARs that I've owned. How many other guns have a dust cover or FA? After the first shot the dust cover is open anyway.
Just to make it a little harder to choose. DSG Arms has this.
http://dsgarms.com/ProductInfo/COAR6720.aspx
If you sign up for an account on their website, you can use this discount code, RECOIL10OFF, until midnight, Sept. 17. That's 10% off on your entire order. Total price including shipping is $898. If I didn't have a BCM LW 16" Carbine already, I'd be all over this. Just a thought! :D
I'm going to go against the grain and say it sounds like the M&P Sport will do anything he is looking for. I know the standard/automated answer is "get the Colt" but the user you have described will not be able to notice or appreciate the difference.
If you have a little over $1,000, like somebody said, you can't go wrong with the Colt.
If you can't then I and two of my friends have Spike's and are very happy with them. I paid $267 for the Pirate lower delivered and $569 for the complete mid length upper to my door. $836 total.
I have been told that Colt doesn't make a Mid Length an I really like that look and feel, lower percieved recoil and a little nbetter sight radius. Of course you will get the "If it doesn't cost $1,000 / $1500/ $2000 it aint shit" crowd but some of us can't afford to.
... Of course you will get the "If it doesn't cost $1,000 / $1500/ $2000 it aint shit" crowd...
Those folks are pretty rare on this site. It takes much more than a high dollar price tag for an AR to get a recommendation around these parts
MrRightWing
09-14-12, 19:20
If your brother is just looking for a gun that he's going to put less than 1,000 rounds a year through, this could be a pretty great deal. PSA with Aimpoint Patrol Rifle Optic for $1,000. Considering it has a $400 optic on it, it's a pretty great deal.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/psa-16-hammer-forged-m4a1-patrol-rifle-package.html
If your brother is just looking for a gun that he's going to put less than 1,000 rounds a year through, this could be a pretty great deal. PSA with Aimpoint Patrol Rifle Optic for $1,000. Considering it has a $400 optic on it, it's a pretty great deal.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/psa-16-hammer-forged-m4a1-patrol-rifle-package.html
that is a freakin awesome deal if you ask me.
I've owned a S&W Sport AR for over a year now and have shot over 2400 rounds through it without any failures of any type. At 100 yards if I do my part it shoots sub MOA with PMC 55gr and M193 55gr ammo. Their quality is excellent for the price and there is not any wrong with them. As for the dust cover and FA I've never needed them on the ARs that I've owned. How many other guns have a dust cover or FA? After the first shot the dust cover is open anyway.
I am pretty sure that shooting sub moa with that ammo is nearly impossible. Maybe...... Maybe if you had made that claim with match grade ammo I might have bought it.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2006/12/19/sws-mp-15-is-one-rugged-reliable-ar/
See the table in the article for more realistic info
I am pretty sure that shooting sub moa with that ammo is nearly impossible. Maybe...... Maybe if you had made that claim with match grade ammo I might have bought it.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2006/12/19/sws-mp-15-is-one-rugged-reliable-ar/
See the table in the article for more realistic info
great reply it really helps people when learning about their rifles to show actual results to back up their claims.
I have been looking into a LMT they have very low prices are they comparable to a colt?
I have never owned a LMT. It is my understanding that they are GTG and on Par with Colt BCM DD.
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