AR-15 vs Shotgun inside a residence?

[Opie]

My Dept. is finally getting me authorized on the patrol rifle this month. I love the AR platform and have used it for several years.

That said, I think I might still grab the 870 when clearing a house. On a barricaded gunman, or similar run where we are working a perimeter the rifle will come out no question, but inside a house I think the buckshot might still be a better option.

PLEASE NOTE: My dept ONLY authorizes Federal TRU 55gr hollowpoints in our rifles. We took a next to perfect 25yrd headshot with this round last winter and it just followed the outside of his skull and exited behind his ear. He is still walking around today. Our administration will not change our load, at least not anytime soon.

Opinions Please.

[BB493]

When I was a rookie we had a hostage standoff. At the time, we only had six rifles and they were all assigned to other officers. We also didn't have a SWAT team and had to rely on other agencies. I was stationed outside the house with a shotgun.

We got everyone out except for one hostage and the situation turned to shit. The closest SWAT officer was still 15 minutes away. Next thing I knew, I was doing a forced entry into the house and I was on point. I came around the corner and the suspect was standing behind the hostage with a long kitchen knife. He had it up in the air like he was going to plunge it into her. I had a clear shot for just a moment but didn't take it because I realized I was armed with the wrong weapon and could not garantee the hostage would not be hit. Before I transitioned to my handgun, the suspect hid behind the hostage and I no longer had the shot. Luckily we were able to get close enough to the suspect, rushed him and freed the hostage. The only injuries were to the suspect but two of us had to go through six months of testing due to blood exposure from the suspect.

We learned a lot from that call and we now have rifles for everyone who goes through the training and we have our own SWAT team. We also train for those situations now where our previous training was clearly lacking. Knowing what I know now, I would have never entered the house with a shotgun and I wouldn't have taken the risks that we took on that night. I feel confident that had I been armed with a rifle or even just my handgun, I would have been able to take the shot when it presented itself and minimised the risk both to the hostage and to the officers who were on the call with me.

I still carry a shotgun on duty because I do feel there are situations where the shotgun is still very relevant. An officer in a neighboring department is their teams shotgun man and he refuses to carry anything else. Based on my experience through, I probably will not be doing any building clearing with anything but a rifle or handgun.

[Opie]

I appreciate the comments and experience. The reason I am bringing this topic up is the lack of faith I have in my issued rifle ammunition.

Thanks.

[Steve]

We took a next to perfect 25yrd headshot with this round last winter and it just followed the outside of his skull and exited behind his ear. He is still walking around today. Our administration will not change our load, at least not anytime soon.
.

a near perfect never cuts it. OCCULAR CAVITY IS ALL THAT COUNTS IN HEAD SHOTS.

Depending on that situation the officer, would have had to perform a slug select drill if it needed in a hostage rescue shot/or the like(time consuming).

Was the head shot required?

and then again multiply press's of the trigger area good thing.

was the threat stopped by that single head shot?


There is nothing wrong with carrying a both in the patrol vehicle then deciding which one to take if time permits

[C4IGrant]

Good to see you Opie! As with anything, pick the right tool for the right job. The ammo you have to use for the AR sucks for sure, but the weapon is still capable of a very precise shot (and high capacity mags).

Pat Rogers tells a story in his classes about a guy taking a shotgun slug to the chest and running down the hall. There is no magic bullet (as you know).



C4

[TOrrock]

I think for your situation, in law enforcement, I'd take a carbine, specifically because of the ability to make more precise shots.

As a civillian though, I keep my 870 for a house gun. I'm not going to be making shots agains a hostage holder.

[C4IGrant]

I think for your situation, in law enforcement, I'd take a carbine, specifically because of the ability to make more precise shots.

As a civillian though, I keep my 870 for a house gun. I'm not going to be making shots agains a hostage holder.

I kind of feel that there is a chance for a Civy to have to have to take a hostage shot. I have two small children and a wife. If someone came in with the intent of kidnapping one of my children and was able to grab them before I could get there then I would have to take the shot.



C4

[dubb-1]

The shotgun is a viable tool, to be sure. That said, knowingly going into harm's way, I would opt for the platform that allows me to put the most lead down range as fast and accurately as possible. All things being equal, that is the AR platform. There is no such thing as a magic bullet, or buckshot, so we are safer in assuming that the threat will keep coming after the first shot (or fifth, or fifteenth), than a one shot stop.

To be clear, I am not a door-kicker, though I hope my employment with the local Sheriff's Office will lead to that, I have been studying these arguments for a while now. There are applications for all tools, which is why they exist. However, I believe that the AR platform is a bit more widely applicable.

[TOrrock]

I kind of feel that there is a chance for a Civy to have to have to take a hostage shot. I have two small children and a wife. If someone came in with the intent of kidnapping one of my children and was able to grab them before I could get there then I would have to take the shot.



C4


I agree Grant, but I'm a bachelor.....the only one that's going to be in the house is me.......if I had a wife and kids I'd probably use a carbine of some kind.

I still feel secure with 2 3/4" #1 buck and 00.......

In Opie's situation, I'd definitely opt for the carbine option.

[C4IGrant]

I agree Grant, but I'm a bachelor.....the only one that's going to be in the house is me.......if I had a wife and kids I'd probably use a carbine of some kind.

I still feel secure with 2 3/4" #1 buck and 00.......

In Opie's situation, I'd definitely opt for the carbine option.


Bachelor??? What's that? Is that when you can do whatever you want and no one rides your ass for not taking the trash out?? :D


C4

[Opie]

Thanks.

As far as our dept shooting last year, I do not know why a headshot was taken. The subject was no longer a threat after shots were fired, but he was shot at the same time with the .223 on his forehead, as well as multiple shotgun pellets. I do not know what round put him down, and since he lived no autopsy to figure it out.

Slug selects are great if you have time, but would be next to impossible inside a house, I agree there.

I go by what I call a +1 rule when I search a house. If there is one suspect, there is likely two. If I find one gun, there is likely another. Thats a huge +1 for the AR, as fast as I am pumping the 870, its still 3x faster to pull the trigger again on the AR.

The good part is our dept is large enough to have a full swat response in under 25-30 minutes anywhere in the city, so under most situations it would be advisable for us to wait for a team before making entry on a known threat. Especially on non-hostage barricaded gunman runs. I feel for the sheriffs Deputies out there who have 2-3 guys working per shift, and a 15 minute wait for backup. I have only called for help once, and I had 12 cars in about two minutes.

After reading your thoughts, and thinking about it myself I think the benefits of the AR indoors probably outweigh the 870. Car doors and windshields will be another topic....

I am well aware of the "no magic rounds" rule. I have seen enough gunshot wounds to see people that should have died 6 times over live and walk around to talk about it.

[Jay Cunningham]

I agree Grant, but I'm a bachelor.....

The M-14 is starting to make a little more sense now...

[Harv]

I'm thinking to my self... What can the Shotgun do that the AR cannot. I can't think of anything. So for me, the AR is preferred. I have spent a lot of time and energy trying to master it. For me it would be foolish to then rely on a Shotgun and waste all that practice and muscle memory.

My AR is more compact
has a Day/Night capability
much better ammo capacity
way better ergonomics
Much faster follow up shots
quicker to reload
recoil much easier to manage



I don't want to have to train on two different systems.

Just my Take.. I use my shotguns to hunt Grouse and pheasant and the occasional clay bird... I use my AR for everything else.....;)

[BB493]

The reason I am bringing this topic up is the lack of faith I have in my issued rifle ammunition.

I had the same issue at my department. We were using Federal 55grn JHP. The ammo couldn't even handle just riding around in a patrol car. We were routinely finding ammo where the bullet had either fallen back or out of the casing, spilling powder inside the magazines. Many of our officers were too lazy to check their ammo when they took the rifle on the streets so many of our rifles were loaded with defective ammo. When I tested the ammo against auto glass, none of the bullet made it to the geletin.

Do the research and find the ammunition that works best for your department needs. Make an argument that you can support and use your firearms trainers to help you push for better ammo. In a department where no decision is ever quick, when I pointed out the problems with the ammo we were using, it took less than a week for the department to order new ammo for all of our weapons.

[Robb Jensen]

I prefer a rifle. We have a 16" loaded with an HK mag loaded w/30 rounds of AE223 55gr. For me it's just better. It's easier to control for me or my wife, it has a mounted light.

I like 75gr & 77gr in 14.5" and less barrels but I think both might penetrate walls more than 55gr does. We live in a townhouse.

[Derek_Connor]

the go to weapon in my apartment is the AR - i shoot it well, and my wife shoots it very well ;)

She has never been comfortable with the shotgun, so the carbine is our choice.

[Submariner]

So for me, the AR is preferred. I have spent a lot of time and energy trying to master it. For me it would be foolish to then rely on a Shotgun and waste all that practice and muscle memory.

My AR is more compact
has a Day/Night capability
much better ammo capacity
way better ergonomics
Much faster follow up shots
quicker to reload
recoil much easier to manage

I don't want to have to train on two different systems.

Me, too. Especially when I to pay for all the training and ammunition for all the shooters in the household.

My Aimpoint- and Surefire-equipped M590 (one each) is for turkeys. That said, my last turkey was taken with a Kuehl .22 LR M4 upper with an Aimpoint.:D