View Full Version : Regarding .22 precision trainers
Would this scope be appropriate for a .22 caliber rifle? CZ-452 Trainer in my case. Not a precision rifle per-se, but it's very accurate and has a decent trigger job. It's certainly capable.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/598484/weaver-tactical-grand-slam-rifle-scope-3-10x-40mm-1-10-mil-adjustments-mil-dot-reticle-matte
It's on sale this month, and I don't have my own glass. This is why I ask.
Or is there some rule that rimfire guns should only have rimfire scopes?
I figured it didn't matter too much, but I wanted to double-check.
It's a fantastic scope for the money, but of course depends on what and how you want to shoot. You may run into problems with parallax at short ranges, i.e., 25 yards.
I use a 4.5-14x44 Mueller AO scope on my 452 to deal with the parallax. However, I no longer use it for anything closer than 50 yards and typically am shooting 22LR 100y+.
The 452 can very well be a precision rifle with minimal modifications.
One more point- If you're considering using the 452 for precision work or longer distances and can spend a little more, take a look at the Vortex HS Tactical 5-15x44 (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/183567/vortex-viper-hs-tactical-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-5-15x-44mm-side-focus-1-10-mil-adjustments-mil-dot-reticle-matte). Lots of good reports on these from rimfire folks.
I probably won't be shooting closer than 50 yds with this.
Reason I wanted this glass was because it has mil/mil but still has a 1" diameter tube.
The Vortex is nice but a little too rich for me at the moment. I want to see if this Weaver is worth it (so I could take advantage of its being on sale currently).
I just want to ensure I'm not buying a total piece of shit.
For now, uses would include offhand rimfire silhouette and target shooting. So far, I've been making do with a big ass Bushnell Banner loaner.
As you can see, it barely fits.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/69962118/scope%20fit%20002.JPG
I probably won't be shooting closer than 50 yds with this.
Reason I wanted this glass was because it has mil/mil but still has a 1" diameter tube.
The Vortex is nice but a little too rich for me at the moment. I want to see if this Weaver is worth it (so I could take advantage of its being on sale currently).
I just want to ensure I'm not buying a total piece of shit.
For now, uses would include offhand rimfire silhouette and target shooting. So far, I've been making do with a big ass Bushnell Banner loaner.
As you can see, it barely fits.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/69962118/scope%20fit%20002.JPG
That is a big ass scope! Obviously you would be better off with a pic rail and weaver/pic rings.
The Weaver GS is definitely not a piece of shit. It's likely the best variable optic buy under $400. At $299 it's an amazing deal, however, Midway seems to offer this discounted price about every other month or two. Take a look at Sniper Central's review. (http://www.snipercentral.com/weavergslam.phtml)
FromMyColdDeadHand
09-15-12, 01:08
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/456482/bsa-tactical-mil-mil-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-4-14x-44mm-side-focus-1-10-mil-adjustments-first-focal-mrad-reticle-matte
I got one of these for my 40x trainer and have had it out to the range only two times. Focus down to 25yards. Has seemed pretty repeatable. Seems a pretty popular 22 scope due to the short foucs distance, which I know you don't care as much about.
AR15barrels
09-16-12, 01:17
In my experience, adjustable parallax is critical in a precision rifle scope.
If you can't get the parallax perfect, you can't have the confidence in your shot placement that you need to call your shots.
Lack of parallax adjustment to the range you are shooting at makes a scope a no-go for me.
adjustable parallax is critical in a precision rifle scope. Very important.
I'll confess that I've read the "US Optics" article on the parallax, and it still doesn't click in my head.
Looks like I need to go back and try to read it again.
In essence, it's just about focusing the scope, correct?
Yeah the scope your link goes to has no paralax adjust- id guess it's set at 100 yds. That would be a deal breaker for me on a rim fire scope. You wouldnt be able to use it much closer than 50yds and it would still be little blurry inside 75yds on anything higher than 6x or so. Trust me I had a cheap pos 4-12x non paralax adjustable scope on a 22lr once- its just not ideal.
The ss10x is a good scope for 300$, weaver v-16, some good deals still around on older bushy 3200 and 4200s. Natchezss has a sale on a bunch of weaver scopes. I'd get on that focus down to 25yds for a rim fire. I wouldn't worry about trying to find a mil/mil scope for 300ish dollars- you don't need mil/ mil, you do need an AO or SF or some way of adjusting parallax on a vari-x scope.
In essence, it's just about focusing the scope, correct? No, there is more to it.
The image needs to be in focus, and parallax free in order to be most effective.
If the image is in focus, but not parallax free, then the reticle will move based on the position of your eye behind the scope. Unless you are inhumanly precise in achieving your cheek weld, you need parallax adjustment in order to keep the reticle in the same spot in relation to the target even if your eye is not perfectly behind the scope.
Off topic:
Should I never buy glass that isn't adjustable, regardless of caliber being shot?
Learning and understanding scopes and long distance shooting is like the last frontier when it comes to marksmanship for me.
There are instances where not having parallax adjustment is fine.
Most hunting scopes are set parallax free at 150yds. In that application with low magnification (4x) scopes... there isn't really a need for adjustable parallax.
However, on a wide range variable, such as a 4-16x or something... not having an adjustable parallax will definitely cause your crosshairs to move from your intended POI.
If you lock your rifle down so it doesn't move, and sight at something, then move your head/eye very slightly up/down or left/right you can check for parallax error. If the crosshair appears to stay dead steady, locked on the original target... then you are parallax free. If the crosshair moves, you have parallax error.
With a rimfire this is especially important. Try to shoot 1/2" dots at 25yds with a 4-16 with a parallax set to 150yds, and you will understand the meaning of the word "frustrating." The higher the magnification, the closer the distance, the more important an adjustable parallax is.
AR15barrels
09-17-12, 11:33
I'll confess that I've read the "US Optics" article on the parallax, and it still doesn't click in my head.
In essence, it's just about focusing the scope, correct?
NO!
It is about having the reticle in the same position on target in relation to where the barrel is pointing.
If you have parallax error, your reticle is not in the same place that your barrel is pointing.
So, if you are aiming in the same place, your barrel is not pointing in the same place.
If you are not pointing the barrel in the same place, the bullets don't go to the same place.
Pointing the barrel in the right place is the single most important factor in precision rifle shooting besides having a precise rifle that sends the bullet where the barrel is pointed.
AR15barrels
09-17-12, 11:42
The image needs to be in focus, and parallax free in order to be most effective.
I'm gonna throw out an arguement here.
I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, but I'm adding more to it...
Focus is not as important as parallax.
Some scopes will be parallax free at a different setting than where they are best in focus.
(I consider this poor QC, but that's another topic)
Obviously, we want the parallax and the focus to work in conjunction, but let's just leave it to fact that they are NOT always working together.
Parallax is MORE IMPORTANT THAN FOCUS!
If your objective is to be as precise as you can, and you are forced to choose between parallax and focus, go with the parallax being adjusted better than the focus.
You can shoot tighter groups with a slightly de-focused image that's parallax free than you can with a sharply focused image with slight parallax error.
If you have focus problems, you might also try turning down the magnification.
Here is an example I use when trying to teach people that more magnification does not necessarily give you better precision:
http://ar15barrels.com/gfx/22targets2.jpg
If you are dividing up the big black bullseye, it really does not matter what the magnification is.
What's most important in precise shot placement is the precise pointing of the barrel.
That brings us right back around to why parallax is so important...
Hence why I said you need both to be "most effective." ;)
However, I completely agree. You can have a mildly out of focus image with zero parallax error and be more effective than if you had a perfectly in focus image with parallax error.
The issue of people being more accurate at low powers vs high powers has a LOT more to it than just increased parallax error at high powers. The biggest reason for this isn't the parallax, as most manufacturers can produce a product that is in focus and parallax free.
Instead, I believe the biggest reason for reduced accuracy at high magnification among new shooters is the fact that they see every little movement they make, right down to their heartbeat... and they try to fight it, resulting in thrown shots.
^^
That actually ****ed me over at my first rimfire silhouette match. I shot it with the scope currently on my rifle, which was at 18x the whole time, and when it came to hit the 40m chickens, I only hit one of 15. Too much wobble.
I guess I shall look again for a more suitable scope--or just keep borrowing this one until he needs it back. Saving money is never a bad thing for me.
Weaver makes an excellent 3-9X scope with parallax adjustable objective. They have good Japanese glass and as a bonus they are airgun rated which means the lenses have extra retainers.
I got mine from Natchez. I think they are in the Weaver "V" series. I paid around $200 for mine.
The description says the parallax is set at 50yds but that is wrong because it is adjustable unless they mean with the objective set at infinity.
Here: http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&brand=WE&prodID=WE849398&prodTitle=Weaver%203-9x32%20Classic%20Rimfire%20AO%20Riflescope%20Dual-X%20Reticle%20Matte
Suwannee Tim
09-18-12, 15:27
Depends a lot on the range you plan to shoot at. I shoot air rifles a lot and often close range, 10 meters or so. A typical rifle scope has a lot of parallax at close ranges. See for yourself. Observe some target at close range with the rifle on a rest. Move your head around and observe the relative motion of the crosshairs on the target. Even a low powered scope at close range has a lot of parallax. I use the Leupold airgun extended focal range scopes, the 6.5-20 are a bit much for general use but I use them anyway. The 3-9 is probably more practical and a lot cheaper. The Nikon should be o.k.
http://www.midwayusa.com/find?userSearchQuery=efr
http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr228/allentimfrank/IMG_1250-1.jpg
http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr228/allentimfrank/IMG_5096.jpg
Suwannee Tim
09-18-12, 15:46
I think I'll go home and kill some Cuban lizards. I haven't killed anything all month. Gettin lazy.
I watched the "Art of the Precision rifle" segment when he reviews parallax.
While I don't understand the complex optical technicalities, I at least feel like I "get it" with regards to shooting and not messing that up.
I've been practicing with the loaner scope I have, and even off the bench, I'm making the gun move laterally. I can see the reticle move on the target.
Any ideas/tips for to minimize play with a traditional shaped stock?
AR15barrels
10-03-12, 12:23
I've been practicing with the loaner scope I have, and even off the bench, I'm making the gun move laterally. I can see the reticle move on the target.
Any ideas/tips for to minimize play with a traditional shaped stock?
Don't touch the stock while checking parallax.
Adjust it until there is no movement while checking.
Don't trust the distance numbers on the scope's knob as they are rarely correct.
legumeofterror
10-03-12, 15:42
Must take a really cool guy to sit around shooting lizards. Even cooler to take pictures and post them on the internet...
Mine's not a precision trainer, but here's the one I went with and I like it. Burris Timberline 4.5-14X32 with ballistic plex reticle and adjustable objective. It fits the platform nicely and I've been pleased with the performance.
http://www.opticsplanet.com/burris-timberline-4-5-14x32mm-ballistic-plex-riflescope-201344.html
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/SavageFV-SR.jpg
Must take a really cool guy to sit around shooting lizards. Even cooler to take pictures and post them on the internet... Were your poor animal-loving sensibilities hurt?
Must take a really cool guy to sit around shooting lizards. Even cooler to take pictures and post them on the internet...
Those "lizards" are brown anoles that aren't even native to Florida. In a state full of exotic plants and animals, mostly released by idiots, it's nice to have another expert telling us how to do it. You must be from Up North, lmao.
legumeofterror
10-10-12, 15:28
Were your poor animal-loving sensibilities hurt?
I have found that individuals who derive pleasure from doing harm to people/creatures weaker than themselves are generally of low self esteem and all around awful people.
Those "lizards" are brown anoles that aren't even native to Florida. In a state full of exotic plants and animals, mostly released by idiots, it's nice to have another expert telling us how to do it. You must be from Up North, lmao.
Yes yes, Anolis sagrei. I have lived in Florida my entire life and am familiar with the wildlife. You would have to be a fool to think that shooting the lizards in your back yard does anything to control thier population. They have been well established for 50 years and are not going anywhere.
I have found that individuals who derive pleasure from doing harm to people/creatures weaker than themselves are generally of low self esteem and all around awful people. News to me. Everyone that I know that enjoys shooting vermin has an awesome self esteem. Conversely, those that morally object to it are usually the ones with their lives in shambles or seeing therapists and crap like that.
Your bleeding heart doesn't bother me one singular bit. Nor does your opinion of those who shoot vermin, predators, and rodents for fun. I do it frequently. I enjoy shooting rats, skunks, mice, coyotes, and other vermin. I don't eat them. I do it for the FUN of it. I consider it a public service, and have a blast doing it. My self esteem could not be higher.
Anyone that says I can't affect something's population with a rifle has obviously never seen me shoot. When I moved to my current residence, the place was overrun by gophers, cats, rats, and all other manner of vermin. Within 6 months, they were all virtually extinct on my property.
Yet, I've been known to get pretty serious with it. However, case in point... your so-called theory is obviously leaking heavily from all manner of holes.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/range_report/2012/IMG_6034.JPG
BrigandTwoFour
10-10-12, 17:48
Having seen first hand the damage that can be done by mice, rats, skunks, possums, and other varmint, I endorse Orkan's "public service" statement.
It's easy to bitch about it when you live in an urban area where the worst you have to deal with is a case of ants or roaches. When you're out west and have all sorts of woodland creatures that would be happy to share your bed, eat your food, and poop in your silverware drawer- things get less...friendly.
Something I've noticed;
Tough to see the road when you are that high up on your horse. It can be pretty easy to lose your way.
I've never met an anti that could discuss the issue of killing things logically. You cannot talk logic with someone that talks in emotion. It's no easier than trying to speak english to someone that only knows chinese.
I have this Weaver 4-16x42 (http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?contentID=productDetail&prodID=WE849409) scope w/fine crosshairs on my 10/22.
http://i910.photobucket.com/albums/ac306/lindertw/2010_new_build.jpg
legumeofterror
10-12-12, 15:38
News to me. Everyone that I know that enjoys shooting vermin has an awesome self esteem. Conversely, those that morally object to it are usually the ones with their lives in shambles or seeing therapists and crap like that.
Your bleeding heart doesn't bother me one singular bit. Nor does your opinion of those who shoot vermin, predators, and rodents for fun. I do it frequently. I enjoy shooting rats, skunks, mice, coyotes, and other vermin. I don't eat them. I do it for the FUN of it. I consider it a public service, and have a blast doing it. My self esteem could not be higher.
Anyone that says I can't affect something's population with a rifle has obviously never seen me shoot. When I moved to my current residence, the place was overrun by gophers, cats, rats, and all other manner of vermin. Within 6 months, they were all virtually extinct on my property.
Yet, I've been known to get pretty serious with it. However, case in point... your so-called theory is obviously leaking heavily from all manner of holes.
Having seen first hand the damage that can be done by mice, rats, skunks, possums, and other varmint, I endorse Orkan's "public service" statement.
It's easy to bitch about it when you live in an urban area where the worst you have to deal with is a case of ants or roaches. When you're out west and have all sorts of woodland creatures that would be happy to share your bed, eat your food, and poop in your silverware drawer- things get less...friendly.
There is a difference between shooting/killing animals that may actually be impacting you home or property and killing things that don't harm anyone. I have poisoned/killed plenty of moles and rats around my home. I own a hunting lease and hunt there regularly. Shooting lizards that do nothing but eat insects and sit around in the yard is not benefiting anyone, he just likes killing lizards, which is pretty shitty as far as I am concerned. It is simply a lack of respect for other living things, which to me speaks a lot about a persons character.
he just likes killing lizards, which is pretty shitty as far as I am concerned. It is simply a lack of respect for other living things, which to me speaks a lot about a persons character. So it's OK to kill so long as you decide it's OK to kill it for one reason or another, but it's not OK to kill for a reason he's decided upon?
AR15barrels
10-12-12, 17:04
So it's OK to kill so long as you decide it's OK to kill it for one reason or another, but it's not OK to kill for a reason he's decided upon?
Exactly.
That's the other thing about being high on the horse.
... it's easy to be knocked off. :D
legumeofterror
10-14-12, 15:21
When I consider a person who unnecessarily kills things for their own enjoyment a piece of shit, what anyone else thinks about it doesn't really enter into it now does it? You can think you "got me" all you like, but as far as I am concerned a guy who sits and shoots lizards in his backyard is an asshole. The way you interpret that behavior may be different, and that is great, but it isn't going to change the way I see it. Now that doesn't mean he has to change his behavior to appease me, he can shoot lizards all day long. I will just continue to regard him as an asshole.
When I consider a person who unnecessarily kills things for their own enjoyment a piece of shit, what anyone else thinks about it doesn't really enter into it now does it? You can think you "got me" all you like, but as far as I am concerned a guy who sits and shoots lizards in his backyard is an asshole. The way you interpret that behavior may be different, and that is great, but it isn't going to change the way I see it. Now that doesn't mean he has to change his behavior to appease me, he can shoot lizards all day long. I will just continue to regard him as an asshole. Your bleeding heart is cute. :cray:
I remember reading an article once, about the pathology of people that get worked up about animals dying. Too bad I can't find it. It was a careful study of anti's and why they do what they do. I had no expectation of swaying your opinion any more than I would a PETA supporter.
Pretty sure you just violated some rules somewhere too. Not to worry though... I'm the only one the mods do anything to in this section.
I have found that individuals who derive pleasure from doing harm to people/creatures weaker than themselves are generally of low self esteem and all around awful people.
The fact you have humans combined with creatures discredits all your posts in this thread.
color me awful...depredation is a favorite past time of many & I don't mind being lumped into the group you loathe.
I hunt a 7000 acre ranch down here and we have orders from the biologist to shoot every hog & yote on sight...I also enjoy whacking the jack rabbits, ground hogs, bobcats, coons, skunks, rattlesnakes and any other vermin that start to over populate the ranch depending on the conditions/populations.
~~~~~~~
My favorite is helping farmers with pigeons and grackles, combined with a couple flats of 12ga to burn up...farmers love it when you can help their yields.
Actually, pigeon shoots themselves are a friggin hoot!! Wathching high rollers on a $10k miss and out can get quite entertaining.
When I consider a person who unnecessarily kills things for their own enjoyment a piece of shit, what anyone else thinks about it doesn't really enter into it now does it? You can think you "got me" all you like, but as far as I am concerned a guy who sits and shoots lizards in his backyard is an asshole. The way you interpret that behavior may be different, and that is great, but it isn't going to change the way I see it. Now that doesn't mean he has to change his behavior to appease me, he can shoot lizards all day long. I will just continue to regard him as an asshole.
I think the sticking point is you calling someone else a POS and an asshole for doing something that's perfectly legal. That would make you a self righteous, judgmental asshole.
Ahh, the sweet taste of irony! :D
Since we've decided that everyone here is an asshole, anybody have an opinion on that CZ in the Manners stock? Varmint Tactical Trainer I think it's called?
Was gonna try and find a 40x in .22 but they either don't exist or only exist for massive amounts of money. The CZ I could get into for under $800, and I figure at least $400 of that is for the Manners. I've never shot a CZ before but I've heard good things. I'm interested in this one because the stock on it is very similar to the Manners on my GAP bolt gun.
Funny you should ask. I'm selling one of my personal 40X 22LR's. With a manners stock.
http://www.primalrights.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5831
The CZ's seem to have a good reputation. I haven't spent much time with one. ... and I for one, am not an asshole. :)
Since we've decided that everyone here is an asshole, anybody have an opinion on that CZ in the Manners stock? Varmint Tactical Trainer I think it's called?
Was gonna try and find a 40x in .22 but they either don't exist or only exist for massive amounts of money. The CZ I could get into for under $800, and I figure at least $400 of that is for the Manners. I've never shot a CZ before but I've heard good things. I'm interested in this one because the stock on it is very similar to the Manners on my GAP bolt gun.
I've got a CZ 455 Evolution on the way right now. Should be here by Friday or Monday. It's obviously not a "trainer" because of the funky stock, but I'll let you know how it shoots anyway. I've heard the triggers aren't great, but Timney does make one for the 455. I'll report back on that front as well.
I'd really like to hear about that timney.
I have found that individuals who derive pleasure from doing harm to people/creatures weaker than themselves are generally of low self esteem and all around awful people.
Yes yes, Anolis sagrei. I have lived in Florida my entire life and am familiar with the wildlife. You would have to be a fool to think that shooting the lizards in your back yard does anything to control thier population. They have been well established for 50 years and are not going anywhere.
I'm not enough of a FOOL to argue with an idiot on the internet and be beaten by your vast experience.
Since we've decided that everyone here is an asshole, anybody have an opinion on that CZ in the Manners stock? Varmint Tactical Trainer I think it's called?
Was gonna try and find a 40x in .22 but they either don't exist or only exist for massive amounts of money. The CZ I could get into for under $800, and I figure at least $400 of that is for the Manners. I've never shot a CZ before but I've heard good things. I'm interested in this one because the stock on it is very similar to the Manners on my GAP bolt gun.
I don't think you can go wrong with the CZs. I just own a cheap Norinco copy of the BRNO action and it shoots really well. If you want an expensive trainer, take a look at this:
http://blackopsprecision.com/?product=rimfire-rifle
As stated they will also make a repeater out of your 40X if you come across one for a reasonable amount. You can also buy their barreled action when it comes out. I don't work for them, just heard good things.
I'd really like to hear about that timney.
I'm going to end up not getting it, sorry. Since the gun is not a trainer I don't need the trigger to feel any certain way, and after dry firing the stock CZ trigger for a while today I'm just going to leave it.
It's not perfect but nowhere near bad enough for me to be able to justify the cost of the Timney. I really doubt there would be any noticeable performance difference with either trigger.
after dry firing the stock CZ trigger for a while today I'm just going to leave it. Ouchy. Rimfires don't normally like that shit. Is there some mechanism in the cz that makes em different?
Yep CZ's are good to be dry fired.
Ouchy. Rimfires don't normally like that shit. Is there some mechanism in the cz that makes em different?
Not sure about other models of CZ's but both 452 and 455 the firing pin has a shoulder, behind the bolt face. It prevents the firing pin from striking the face of the breech.
There's a kit you can get for cz rimfires it's just a shim and spring- no permanent altering of the gun required and it gives you an adjustable trigger 1-3.5 lbs with little to no creep. It's only like 15$. Yo Dave trigger kit or some odd shit name like that. I have it on my cz, it's a great trigger for something that was simple and didn't require any gunsmithing.
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