View Full Version : Help grouping
Hello gentlemen, I went to the range on Friday with my old man to try to sight in my new DD V1. We were at 100 yards and I was using iron sights, my dad was my spotter, he only shot the gun once just to get a feel of it. I only shot maybe 120 rounds, taking my time in between each shot so that my dad could tell me where I was hitting on the target. I noticed I was shooting low and to the left when I put the front post on the center of the target, so then I tried to shoot a little higher covering the hole target with the post and I seemed to be better like this but not at all where I wanted to be. I then made some adjustments on the sights. I moved the rear sight to the right one click and also raised the front sight 1 click, I am thinking now I might have done this backwards, ( moved the sights in the wrong direction). After I adjusted the sights I went back to shooting and pops told me I was even more left and low. So I then compensated for this and aimed (again using the whole front sight post) high and right and seemed to be getting better shots. My issue is I do not want to have to compensate I want right above my front sight post to be my POI. I know I need way more practice at this but I was wondering if you guys could tell me if I moved the sights the wrong way based on where I was originally shooting ( low and left) also I will post the 2 targets I mainly used, maybe someone can give me some advice based on them. This was my first time ever shooting at 100 yards with irons and also my second time ever shooting the DD. I know I cannot expect to be a perfect shot overnight and I do not think I did too bad but I know I could have done better. I am new to all of this. Thank you in advance for all of your responses.
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I know the pictures suck but it's the best I could do for now , I'm using a crapy camera on my I pad, also in target 1 I know the seems to be a few hits on the right that's after I was aiming far right and high.. There is a group on the left like 9:00, that's where I started, then after all of that I was kinda all over the place, god it's hard for me at least to shoot 100 yards with irons.
Ok after 29 years in the USMC try this:
Set your sight: f/S flush, rear centered
At 25 yards aim POA/POI.
Adjusts from there to where you can shoot and hit black (size of a quarter) this should put you on paper at 200 yrds.
from there you can tweek it to your BZO.
sinlessorrow
09-16-12, 10:02
FORS.
Front opposite, rear same.
The front post should be moved down to rais POI, and raised up to lower poi. Never compensate, keep your post even on the target and adjust buis, you probably needed 5-6 click right on the rear and 3-4 down on the front.
I would also suggest getting a zero at 25yards, then move to 50, zero there then move to 100.
Great advice thank you very much.
scoutchris
09-16-12, 10:38
Never compensate when you are trying to zero. Your point of aim should never change, you should just adjust your sights. That being said, fire three roud groups, and adjust off each group. And I would highly recommend zeroing at 25,then 50, then 100. Zeroing at 100 with iron sights is rather difficult to do. There are also data tables for which you can zero at 100 when you are shooting at a 25 yd range.
forgot to mention your round will drop and then as the aerodynamics take over rise before it starts to drop again. If you plan on a BZO of 100 yds you should be low at 25 but not much.
steyrman13
09-16-12, 11:57
forgot to mention your round will drop and then as the aerodynamics take over rise before it starts to drop again. If you plan on a BZO of 100 yds you should be low at 25 but not much.
It has nothing to do with aerodynamics. The bullet never drops then rises then drops. It is always dropping once it leaves the barrel. It is only the fact that the sights are higher than the bore and so you actually aim the bore to cross the sights at a set distance(zero distance ie 25m, 50m, 100m, 200m...) then it will be impacting lower before and after the zero distance. If you had a piece of paper 1 foot in front of the barrel, and aimed at a black dot on the paper, the bullet would be impacting the paper however much lower the bore is from the sight plane. That is why people using scopes try to get the lowest scope mount they can without having the Objective touch the rail or barrel. Same with a Laser, the closer it is to the bore the better
It has nothing to do with aerodynamics. The bullet never drops then rises then drops. It is always dropping once it leaves the barrel. It is only the fact that the sights are higher than the bore and so you actually aim the bore to cross the sights at a set distance(zero distance ie 25m, 50m, 100m, 200m...) then it will be impacting lower before and after the zero distance. If you had a piece of paper 1 foot in front of the barrel, and aimed at a black dot on the paper, the bullet would be impacting the paper however much lower the bore is from the sight plane. That is why people using scopes try to get the lowest scope mount they can without having the Objective touch the rail or barrel. Same with a Laser, the closer it is to the bore the better
I'll buy that maybe my info is dated but it's always worked for me!!! (Multi USMC rifle expert!)
sinlessorrow
09-16-12, 12:02
It has nothing to do with aerodynamics. The bullet never drops then rises then drops. It is always dropping once it leaves the barrel. It is only the fact that the sights are higher than the bore and so you actually aim the bore to cross the sights at a set distance(zero distance ie 25m, 50m, 100m, 200m...) then it will be impacting lower before and after the zero distance. If you had a piece of paper 1 foot in front of the barrel, and aimed at a black dot on the paper, the bullet would be impacting the paper however much lower the bore is from the sight plane. That is why people using scopes try to get the lowest scope mount they can without having the Objective touch the rail or barrel. Same with a Laser, the closer it is to the bore the better
That is incorrect. Bullets initially rise since the barrel is tilted up, they travel in an arc pattern, rising to a certain point then declining afyer that point.
http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx113/rhinowso/Misc/Zerobulletpaths.jpg
... so you actually aim the bore to cross the sights at a set distance(zero distance ie 25m, 50m, 100m, 200m...) then it will be impacting lower before and after the zero distance.
Not quite.
You aim the bore to cross the sights at TWO set distances. POI is lower than POA before and after the intersections, and higher between them.
So, for example, if you "zero" at 50yds, then your point of impact will be low inside 50yds, then high beyond 50yds, until the bullet drops enough to be at point of aim again, after which it'll be low again.
steyrman13
09-16-12, 12:15
That is incorrect. Bullets initially rise since the barrel is tilted up, they travel in an arc pattern, rising to a certain point then declining afyer that point.
http://i747.photobucket.com/albums/xx113/rhinowso/Misc/Zerobulletpaths.jpg
I tried finding a picture to show what really happens. Here is a link in better words than mine http://www.chuckhawks.com/bullet_trajectory.htm
but the bullet itself never, NEVER, rises above the bore axis. Like I stated you actually point to bore upward to cross the axis of the Sight plane. If you held the BORE completely level the bullet would only drop after exiting.
steyrman13
09-16-12, 12:18
Not quite.
You aim the bore to cross the sights at TWO set distances. POI is lower than POA before and after the intersections, and higher between them.
So, for example, if you "zero" at 50yds, then your point of impact will be low inside 50yds, then high beyond 50yds, until the bullet drops enough to be at point of aim again, after which it'll be low again.
I think we are saying the same thing. You don't make two zero points though. Your only zeroing the final distance whatever you may be, Most hunters do 100 or 200yrds. It just so happens that because of the Bore being angled up to cross the sight plane, it crosses at two points. For one rifle it could be a zero distance of 200M and the first distance it crosses might be say 57.5M It is important to know where both cross, but the actual "zero" distance was set at 200M.
This is becoming an argument PLEASE LOCK!!
I think we are saying the same thing...
It is important to know where both cross, but the actual "zero" distance was set at 200M.
Well, we're saying the same thing now.
Note that a lot of the "25 meter" or "50 meter" zeroes actually work because NOT because anybody wants his gun zeroed at 25 or 50 meters, but because the "second" zero will be at 200 or 250yds, and there isn't more than a couple inches difference in the trajectory of the bullet and the sight axis out to that distance a bit beyond.
steyrman13
09-16-12, 12:23
Well, we're saying the same thing now.
Note that a lot of the "25 meter" or "50 meter" zeroes actually work because NOT because anybody wants his gun zeroed at 25 or 50 meters, but because the "second" zero will be at 200 or 250yds, and there isn't more than a couple inches difference in the trajectory of the bullet and the sight axis out to that distance a bit beyond.
Correct, In the Army we usually did the 25M zero first with the Rear sight adjusted the when we went to the real ranges, we clicked it back up so it would theoretically be right on at 100, Alot of hunters do that because they dont have a longer range and set it at say 1.5" high at 100 so that it is on at 200 and usually around 50 as well.
steyrman13
09-16-12, 12:25
This is becoming an argument PLEASE LOCK!!
Not trying to argue, just trying to explain to the OP so he understands alittle more about trajectory and all.
Correct, In the Army we usually did the 25M zero first with the Rear sight adjusted the when we went to the real ranges, we clicked it back up so it would theoretically be right on at 100, Alot of hunters do that because they don,t have a longer range and set it at say 1.5" high at 100 so that it is on at 200 and usually around 50 as well.
BINGO!! This is the whole idea! But it doesn't need to devolve into an argument on this forum IMHO.
Ok, I wish I could go again today but I can't :( I am really antzy to get her sighted in. But it's almost Buck season round where I live for archery, so I went out and sighted in my bow, hey it's something:) and I can do this in my back yard. Not so much with the AR..thank you guys so much for the intel, I will def put it to use.
When I am shooting groups of 3 at 25 how fast shout I be shooting them? Also how low at 25 yards = POI ?
This is becoming an argument PLEASE LOCK!!
how is this an argument , it's 2 different points please don't derail my thread:big_boss:
Gentlemen I really do appreciate the intel, I needed it and have a better understanding. I now feel as though I know what I must do during my next range trip
steyrman13
09-16-12, 12:38
Ok, I wish I could go again today but I can't :( I am really antzy to get her sighted in. But it's almost Buck season round where I live for archery, so I went out and sighted in my bow, hey it's something:) and I can do this in my back yard. Not so much with the AR..thank you guys so much for the intel, I will def put it to use.
When I am shooting groups of 3 at 25 how fast shout I be shooting them? Also how low at 25 yards = POI ?
That all depends. What kind of shooting are you wanting to do with it. Also what is the main distances you will be shooting at?
how is this an argument , it's 2 different points please don't derail my thread:big_boss:
Gentlemen I really do appreciate the intel, I needed it and have a better understanding. I now feel as though I know what I must do during my next range trip
Don't mean to derail your thread just want to keep things civil. Poor physiology I admit. I should not have stepped on your thread as it is a ligit concern! I understand we all have a different way to set up our weapons and some things are very personal. Just saying what has worked for me. Will it work for you IDK but that up to you to decide.
Please read the "zen of the 100 yard zero" and "AR15 zeroes and trajectories" in the pinned threads above. Everything is explained clearly in those threads.
Extracted from the AR15 zero thread
http://www.box.net/shared/static/xuhqpttxnv.jpg
That bottom illustration is a gem. Made my day AKDoug
I stole it from this thread... I get no credit.. :cray:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=65679
steyrman13
09-16-12, 20:21
That bottom illustration is a gem. Made my day AKDoug
That is the illustration I was looking for! Haha thanks!
Please read the "zen of the 100 yard zero" and "AR15 zeroes and trajectories" in the pinned threads above. Everything is explained clearly in those threads.
Extracted from the AR15 zero thread
http://www.box.net/shared/static/xuhqpttxnv.jpg
Yeah I did... About 20 times before and after I bought my AR, and also before I went to the range and after, nothing is wrong with asking a question and getting a live personal answer, to which I appreciate the illustration and all the advice.
One thing you need to know is that when using an A2 style rear sight, mechanical zero on the rear sight is for 300 when set up the army way. Under 300 meters, you use the large aperture, which is marked 0-200.
In the Marine Corps, the rear sight is re-timed to go down 3 clicks from the 300 meter mark before bottoming out, and you use the small aperture for all engagements and use a slightly lower POA for engagements under 200, except for low light engagements, where you would use the large aperture..
Most likely, your rifle is set to bottom out at 8/3.
It so, you can either have someone who knows how to re-time the rear sight do it, and use the 25 meter zero, or you can use whatever the army does.
Since I was in the Corps, I re-time all A2 style sights to what the Corps does and zero from that for irons..
Update... I went out today and tried again at 50 yards. I have included 2 pictures the first is the sight in process .. 3-5 shots then check/adjust then the second one is a 30 round pmag through one target , I was running out of time I'd like to adjust a tiny bit more like a click low and one to the right and I should be where I want to be ... But what an improvement, at least I think so thank you for all the info. I actually printed out some of the sticky "zen of the 100 yard 0" and I have started a journal that I will be writing what adjustments I've made, conditions, wind etc. I know that shooting this close is not such a big victory but eventually .... I have high hopes...
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You've got it.
Except for a couple fliers, that second target looks like a 1-1/2" group, which is pretty good at 50yds...
sinlessorrow
09-21-12, 18:34
You've got it.
Except for a couple fliers, that second target looks like a 1-1/2" group, which is pretty good at 50yds...
Yep. Good job, a few fliers but thats to be expected. Looks like a good zero. If you are using irons I prefer to go with to zero my irons in a way that you set the circle on top of the post and that is where the bullets impact. I find it gives a less cluttered target.
Yes I am using the stock irons that came on my DD V1. I too would like the POI to be right above my front post. I totally understand what your talking about. The fliers .... Towards the end of the mag I tried to decrease the time in between shots basically after recoil as soon as the sights jumped back on target shoot. I know I can tighten this group up a lot and I want to before I move to 75 yards then 100 yards. I like my new system though I brought most of the info in the sticky some of the diagrams and a neat little pad to write on that I recorded everything, I had done I was on a mission but little time... I'm going back tmrw for sure...
If you are just learning to shoot the irons your a natural. Im glad Nancy didn't get your thread closed, and you were able to get the help needed. Post an update when you get out to a hundred.
Blak1508
Yep looks good! Let us know what it does at 100 yards. :D
I use the 50 yard zero and it's also zeroed at 200 yards and a little high at 100 yards but still in the kill zone.
sinlessorrow
09-22-12, 21:00
I use the 50 yard zero and it's also zeroed at 200 yards and a little high at 100 yards but still in the kill zone.
lol, call me old fashioned but I still do the whole 25M zero and just learned hold over/under.
FriggetyFrak
09-23-12, 06:51
This diagram found on ar15.com using a google search seems relevant to the discussion at hand:
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz7/serinobw/Trajectory.jpg
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=552977
ETA: Apologies to AKDoug since I think you already posted this, but for some reason all I could see for your image was a red x.
Yes I am using the stock irons that came on my DD V1.
what ammo are you using? Also are you using a rest, sandbags, or what?
Any plans to take a Carbine class anytime soon?
I am using sandbags but just resting my arms on them not the rifle not the rifle. So I would not say the rifle was fixed into place. The ability to move to move the rifle around was present, in other words. I basically just set up 2 socks filled with sand in order to rest my arms on them to be comfy. I ordered a rest but it's not here yet. I am using federal 55 gr 5.56 M193 ball.
As far as a carbine class, of course, I took one last Saturday, it was 3 hours in the classroom learning basics of the basics, I had never even held an AR before I bought this one. We went over all the operations, how to fully break the AR down field strip, holding positions. Dos and donts, they briefly explained what MOA is and how to calculate it( but this was kinda hard for me to understand, I'm just being honest, but I am a visual person so I am sure I will get a better understanding at the range) although I've been reading up on it and watching YouTube vids on it, to get a better understanding of it. ..etc next weekend I have part 2 of this class which will be on the range shooting them and getting into more in depth concepts of shooting a Carbine. It's a set of 4 classes each one picks up on the other and each getting in more detail. The last class is entiltled "tactics" I'm not even close to being there yet. I will never know to much from lessons or classes. They are essential.
-wahoo any reason your asking?
This diagram found on ar15.com using a google search seems relevant to the discussion at hand:
http://i808.photobucket.com/albums/zz7/serinobw/Trajectory.jpg
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=552977
ETA: Apologies to AKDoug since I think you already posted this, but for some reason all I could see for your image was a red x.
I had this printed out with me when I did my 50 yard sight in.
-wahoo any reason your asking?
Was asking really as more of a suggestion as I always recommend getting some quality instruction for folks that are new to the platform. Sounds like you got it covered.
I could not agree with you more. Classes and lessons are what makes one better, one could have all the ammo and range time in the world and if not using proper techniques, they may never past a certain level. I will never be to good for another class. Even when I think I'm at my best. I do not want to get off subject too much but when I bought my first handgun I shoot amazing with it..although bad technique, bad grip, trigger movement, etc.. Took a class and learned the correct techniques and shot horrible, stayed with what I was taught little by little from lesson to class to range time practicing what I was taught I'm better now then I ever was before, for one thing my expectations changed and the bar is now raised, bad habits while sometimes look good on paper are still bad habits. A firearm is more then a hobby it's an investment and what you put in is what you will get out, saving your families life, your own as well, being prepared and practiced for a situation is better then thinking you would know how you would react in a bad situation... I know I'm kicking a horse here but it's very important to me....;)
Now back to grouping........lol...... Real quick question for those of you that care to answer. Earlier I was asked if I shot with a rest, do you reccomend this when doing a 0 or was what I was doing ok with stacking 2 sandbags for my arms to rest on and shooting, or should the rifle be fixed as best as it can be in the same position?
Yes. Zero is best performed with the rifle on a rest. The idea is to take as much human error (movement) as possible out of the equation.
Sandbags, backpacks, bench rifle rests, bi-pods or at the least, shoot prone resting the magazine on the ground.
OP,
You are obviously beginning to understand the whole zero concept and your last target looks good. I have to ask though, with as good a group as that is it would be even better if you moved another 1/2" right. Your group is all on the left side of your intended target. Nothing wrong with your shooting, just adjust a bit more. At 50 I like my irons or red dot as dead on as I can hold. The next time you go out use a rest and eliminate all of the human factor that you can. You are zeroing the rifle. Once you know it is as close as possible then move on with full confidence in your rifle and develop that same confidence in yourself.
I was very short on time. When I finally shot a whole mag through (the second target) your absolutely correct in that I need to move to the right a click. I would have done so but as I said I was out of time. And I def do not want to move it now that I'm home and not see the results.
For what it's worth, I truely appreciate all the help given on this thread I fee like some of you have been there from the first post and I know some of you could have blown me off as I'm sure this is a repetive thread for those who have been around the forum awhile. Anyway I was planning on going back to the range yesterday but I forgot it was my anniversary lol so I could not go. The wife is chipping in on a H-1 eventually for me as my anniversary gift/ Christmas gift. I might go with the T-1 for the NV capability. Anyway so just wanted to say thanks again, I will post my next update at 75 yards, keeping with the irons. Maybe I'll have time after my class on Saturday.
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