PDA

View Full Version : Civilians & Home Defense



C4IGrant
09-02-06, 11:38
The subject of civy home defense interests me greatly and thought I would share my opinion on this subject. My position is not the gospel, but simply how I intend to react if I have an intruder in my home/property.

Many of us live in States that do not allow us to shoot an unarmed intruder. We must first show that we used a non-lethal form of deterrent (OC/CS, Baton, Etc.). I know that many of us follow the saying, “better to judged by 12 than carried by 6”, but I wonder if that is really the best policy. How do I defend/support my family if I am in jail?

My personal home defense setup, includes the following:

G19 w/SF X200B, Crimson Trace laser grip
AR15 w/Weaponlight and Hornady 75gr TAP
ALS OC Grenade
Handheld Surefire
Two phones (one being a cell)

All of these items sit in my bedroom. The mistakes I think people make is that they only have one weapon in the bedroom. If for some reason you have to leave the bedroom, you have now left your spouse defenseless. This is a bad idea.
I set my G19 up so that all my wife has to do is squeeze the grip and she gets a light and a laser. I also like the Glock because there is no hammer or safety for her to remember. We (as men) have to remember that our wives don’t get to shoot a lot (if at all) and we need to keep things simple for them.

Now to the actual breaking in. It is 0200 and you hear someone coming in the back door. You have no idea who they are, if they armed and if there is more than one.
If you have a dog and they are in the bedroom with you, kick them into the hall and let them bark at or attack the intruder. In the dark of night, an English Springer (which is what I have) sounds just like a much bigger, meaner dog!

Now grab your children (if you have any) and bring them into your bedroom. I would then grab my OC grenade and toss it down the hall and close the door. Put a towel under the door and move a dresser in front of it. The spouse should have already dialed 911 by this time. From my understanding, it is very common these days for bad guys to cut the phone lines coming from your house. Keep a cell phone in your room (two is one and one is none).

You have now exhibited the use of non-lethal force (OC). You have barricaded yourself into your room and given yourself the advantage if the bad guys comes through the door. One of the side advantages of the OC grenade is that it tells you what type of person you are dealing with. Anyone that stands in a hall way filled with OC and attempts to break down a barricaded door is VERY serious about doing harm to you and your family. The last thing to remember in this chain of events (as the bad guy is coming through the door) is to yell as loud as you can “GET OUT, GET OUT, GET OUT” and then pull the trigger as many times as necessary to put the bad guy down (failure drill). The purpose of yelling for the person to get out is the last thing any neighbor or family member will remember before you pulled the trigger is that you told them to leave (which is an important point if you ever had to go to court).

This post was intended to be a discussion on what to do in a home invasion situation so please post your opinions/ideas on this subject.



C4

Diz
09-23-06, 18:28
I think you have a sound tactical concept of operation there.
My plan is much the same, although I don't have the OC grenade and the duty to use LTL force first in my state.
My only concern is that with children present, you may not have enough time to retrieve them into the master bedroom and barricade in before the criminals get to you. You may have to run and gun in the hallway or make your stand in their bedroom. This becomes a complex issue when there are several loved one in different bedrooms.
My plan is basically the same, although we have no kids so it is vastly simplified. We are locked down at night, both outside and inside (master bedroom) perimeters. We have an alarm on every down-stairs orfice into the house. When activated, we assume battle stations in the bedroom, call 911, and wait. I run a G-19. My wife is an accomplished G-26 shooter so I have a built-in partner. We also have tac lights and BOK's. I will not go into detail about our specific tactics, but we have an inter-locking field of fire on the only door into our bedroom. If they come through that door, they will die. If they don't, I will not pursue. Their choice.
We also have G-19 and G-26 airsoft pistols that we practice scenario training with. While home invasion is a viable threat, I feel that we are much more likely to have a violent encounter outside the home so we also train for different scenarios, such as walking to and from your car, carjackings, etc.

Snake RAH
10-05-06, 11:26
"I would then grab my OC grenade and toss it down the hall and close the door. Put a towel under the door and move a dresser in front of it."

If I may, some houses (mine included) have a cold air return vent in the hallway. Even if you stuff a towel under the door, OC may still come through your A/C vent.

Just something to consider.

C4IGrant
10-05-06, 11:54
"I would then grab my OC grenade and toss it down the hall and close the door. Put a towel under the door and move a dresser in front of it."

If I may, some houses (mine included) have a cold air return vent in the hallway. Even if you stuff a towel under the door, OC may still come through your A/C vent.

Just something to consider.

Agree. One must know their house lay out. My hallway does not have an air intake vent.



C4

SuicideHz
10-05-06, 12:27
OC Grenade? Where'd you get such a thing, or is it not that special?

C4IGrant
10-05-06, 13:19
OC Grenade? Where'd you get such a thing, or is it not that special?

You need to spend more time in the dealer forums my friend! :D

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=1083



C4

SuicideHz
10-05-06, 13:57
Well... I've actually checked out that page. Is the "OC Grenade (6oz) $14" the white can with black cap, black label and orange lettering shown underneath it? Is that what you've got for home defense or do you have the $40 version (Pocket CS Grenade) and what is the difference?

C4IGrant
10-05-06, 14:02
Well... I've actually checked out that page. Is the "OC Grenade (6oz) $14" the white can with black cap, black label and orange lettering shown underneath it? Is that what you've got for home defense or do you have the $40 version (Pocket CS Grenade) and what is the difference?

Yes, it is the $14 6oz can. You don't want to ignite a pocket CS grenade in your own home (as you may burn it down and will never get the CS gas out). :eek:



C4

SuicideHz
10-05-06, 14:04
Sweet!!

So how does the little white one work? I can pretty much guess at the others ;)

Bulldog1967
10-05-06, 14:12
OC Grenade would do more harm to your dog than anything....other than that I concur.

C4IGrant
10-05-06, 14:12
Sweet!!

So how does the little white one work? I can pretty much guess at the others ;)

Ever use a bug bomb? ;)



C4

C4IGrant
10-05-06, 14:15
OC Grenade would do more harm to your dog than anything....other than that I concur.

I much prefer to use CS, but not in my own home. While OC is not going to stop anyone in their tracks, it would show a jury that you tried to use a non-lethal form of defense.



C4

SuicideHz
10-05-06, 14:28
No, I don't have that problem! I can figure it out though. I think I need one of the $40 CS "tactical" models for photoshoots...

:D

can a civilian buy one?

C4IGrant
10-05-06, 14:34
No, I don't have that problem! I can figure it out though. I think I need one of the $40 CS "tactical" models for photoshoots...

:D

can a civilian buy one?


CS is 100% legal for Civy's to own. My own requirement is that you fax me an ID so I can make sure your over 18.



C4

GastonG-NoVa
10-05-06, 18:06
There is no way I would use OC in my house as my family and I may hurt worse than the perp.

I have used OC in very close quarters and if enough is used it could possibly incapacitate everyone in the household. If you said what is the problem with that you need to know that that stuff effects everyone differently.

I have seen and sprayed gallons of that stuff on people (while on duty) and the guy that has done alot of jail or prison time is sort of used to the stuff. Alot of them can function through it!

Can you????

There have been countless times where LEOs get killed or assaulted after they deploy OC spray on the same guy that woops there butt.

My position is that it has a use, but for defending your home from boarders I would recommend that lead at a few thousand feet per second be the order of the day. That is if you are in fear for your life......or the life of your family.............

By the way, I think that is the key line that you are to say, if you say anything to an LEO after sending the lead down range.

You must be able to explain yourself in court, or at least hire an outstanding attorney that will be able to assist in your defense.

One more note.....for anyone that thinks they are going to have enough time to rack that 870 as they are searching the house..... get real.....charge that thing up....shit happens real fast. The reason for my last comment is that I conducted active shooter simunitions training in my Dept. with our 870s and over half of out people didn't have one in the pipe as they were searching for the shooter (me). It was a great day to be the bad guy!!!


Be careful out there and keep your head down.....on your front sight.

G

C4IGrant
10-05-06, 18:16
There is no way I would use OC in my house as my family and I may hurt worse than the perp.

I have used OC in very close quarters and if enough is used it could possibly incapacitate everyone in the household. If you said what is the problem with that you need to know that that stuff effects everyone differently.

I have seen and sprayed gallons of that stuff on people (while on duty) and the guy that has done alot of jail or prison time is sort of used to the stuff. Alot of them can function through it!

Can you????

There have been countless times where LEOs get killed or assaulted after they deploy OC spray on the same guy that woops there butt.

My position is that it has a use, but for defending your home from boarders I would recommend that lead at a few thousand feet per second be the order of the day. That is if you are in fear for your life......or the life of your family.............

By the way, I think that is the key line that you are to say, if you say anything to an LEO after sending the lead down range.

You must be able to explain yourself in court, or at least hire an outstanding attorney that will be able to assist in your defense.

One more note.....for anyone that thinks they are going to have enough time to rack that 870 as they are searching the house..... get real.....charge that thing up....shit happens real fast. The reason for my last comment is that I conducted active shooter simunitions training in my Dept. with our 870s and over half of out people didn't have one in the pipe as they were searching for the shooter (me). It was a great day to be the bad guy!!!


Be careful out there and keep your head down.....on your front sight.

G

I have been hit with both OC and CS (tear gas). OC isn't that bad when compared to CS!

Being able to justify yourself to the law is the hole point of this thread. In most States you cannot shoot a home invader unless they have a weapon. If they don't have weapon and you shoot them, then you might be looking at manslaughter. OC gas is a simple, non lethal way to say that you did everything you could to get them out of your home.

Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it.



C4

Hawkeye
10-05-06, 18:45
Once again, I am glad to live where I do.

I personally hesitate to give out too many details on my plans and preparations in public, but thats just me.

And having had first hand experience with CS..........thats some nasty stuff.

C4IGrant
10-05-06, 18:49
Once again, I am glad to live where I do.

I personally hesitate to give out too many details on my plans and preparations in public, but thats just me.

And having had first hand experience with CS..........thats some nasty stuff.

I agree, but wanted people to start thinking about what they would do in a home invasion situation (don't think people put much thought into it). People also don't have ANY idea about their States laws.



C4

cohiba
10-05-06, 18:53
Very interesting thread. A couple of observations from my experiences:

-Know the law in your jurisdiction. Don't guess, don't take internet info, find out. Every state is different. Some have retreat provisions, some don't. If you own a gun, know the laws. I'll leave the ignoring them or do what you have to do parts to you own judgment.

-How many people die in horror movies in this scenario: "Oh, I hear a noise. You stay here..I'll go look." Secure your family and room and stay put if it tactically sound to do so. I knew of a course by a rather well known instructor that had people in a home burglary situation secure their family and then clear the house. WTF? Let me get this right, I have my loved ones safe, police are on the way, bad guys are quite content with looting and leaving and I'm going to go hunt them? This guy was serious. I left.

-Because of some job related unpleasantness, I have taken precautions above what most would do. Cutting the phone lines is a very common tactic but most alarm systems, like mine, automatically send the 911 call when cut. 500 watt halogen floods take care of the yard (GE, we bring good things to light!) Maybe even a CCC or two.

I have the advantage of a two floor colonial home with only one stairway up. My bedroom and my daughter's are upstairs. You can have all of the fun you want on the first floor and basement. Drink my scotch, smoke my cigars, take the silver...whatever. But the stairs are no man's land. The master bedroom has a reinforced door with a deadbolt. Some items within:

cell phones
M4
SF lights
BOK
pistol
vest
NVG

I have a dummy claymore that I wanted to put on a shelf at the top of the stairs but HH6 nixed that. Would have given pause though.:D

So if it all goes to plan, we stay snug and wait for the po-po to arrive. If not...well then to each his own. Again, do what you think you have to.

Take it from me. There is no better feeling on Earth than to see the reaction on some POS's face when he is getting arraigned and he finds out who you are for the first time. By the time he's done, he wished he went up those stairs instead.

C4IGrant
10-05-06, 19:02
Amen Brother! I taught a no light/low light class at the local gun club and the look of shock when I told them to NEVER search their house alone or "investigate that bump in the night" was funny.

My personal opinion is that you SHOULD have a bullet proof vest in the bedroom along with hearing protection! Or better yet, just get a can so you don't wake the kids! :D


C4

Hawkeye
10-05-06, 19:03
I agree, but wanted people to start thinking about what they would do in a home invasion situation (don't think people put much thought into it). People also don't have ANY idea about their States laws.



C4

Unfortunately, this is true.
Some would probably accuse me of planning and preparing a bit too much. I dont see it that way though. ;)

I tell people all the time, learn the laws in your area. Research previous incidents in the area, looking at as many details as possible in regards to what happened and the outcome. And thats just part of the beginning.

BlackFox
10-07-06, 09:30
Grant - I think that's a good plan for a clear-cut situation. If I KNEW someone had broken in and could secure my family, I would never step one foot outside my bedroom door. I don't know too many people who recommend otherwise. The problem is that I would guess the average person has about 1,000 of those "hey - did you hear something?" moments for every obvious break-in. Unfortunately, at least in my case, this means I'm left checking the house in those "hey - did you hear something moments" right up until I find signs of a problem (and then immediately retreat, secure and call). About once every 3 months I have some loud noise in the house that I investigate in middle of the night. I don't know if it's deer, birds or the neighbors who think it's funny to watch me run around the house in underwear and vest with a machinegun :cool:

Vests, lights, defensive tools, cellular phones and family members with good heads on their shoulders are all great to have in these situations, along with an agreed-upon plan. I'm also a big fan of X10 lighting control systems. I have an alarm clock by each bed with a panic button on the top. It turns on every light (inside and out) within 1 second. If someone is willing to stay in your house when they know they're discovered and their exit path is compromised (well lit), then the ante has been raised IMHO. Either way, I'd rather whoever clears the house do it with the lights on. Dogs are an integral part of my plan, too. I actually have newspaper articles saved about situations where dogs are shot as part of taking a family to do harm to them. I feel I can justify someone shooting my dog in front of me as a sign they intend to impose grave bodily harm or death to me or my family (my dogs are small and not a threat to anyone besides giving away their presence, so why else would they want to take them out?).

I think knowing the basics of clearing a room is a good skill to have. I don't think you're playing Rambo right up to the point you realize there's a problem and don't retreat. I think having a family member with at least minimal skill and having a plan for this ahead of time is key. I'd like to take a class with room clearing drills some day.

Diz
10-07-06, 19:22
Home invasion is a complex problem. Some points to consider.
By taking a CCW class in your area, you will get a pretty good picture of just what you can and cannot do to legally justify using deadly force.
A two story house gives you a huge tactical advantage.
Dogs are probably the best alarm sysytems.
Having loved ones in multiple bedrooms complicates the problem tremendously.
Try some FOF in your house and see what actually happens.
I think, personally, home invasion is a low possibility threat.
I think, personally, a street mugging or car jacking are high(er) possibility threats.
I think the most LIKELY threat to my safety is an auto accident.
Wearing your seat belt and driving defensively are statistically the best things you can do to ensure your personal safety.
Preparing for a 1% likely encounter and ignoring a 99% likely encounter is stupid. I bet everyone here (including me) is guilty of driving aggressively and taking stupid chances out there.
Perhaps a bit off-topic, but not when you consider the end goal. Home invasion is just a small piece of the overall subject.

2IDdoc
02-01-07, 18:45
It sounds like C4Grant has a pretty well thought out plan. I also have a plan but it's much simpler. When plans involve multiple steps they get more and more likely to be Murphy'd. Mr. Murphy told me that when some Booger Eating Goblin decides to break into my house it will be in the middle of the night, I will be groggy, disoriented, and waaay behind on the OODA loop.

This means that whatever I am wearing is what I will be going to the breach in. I won't be strapping on a chest rig or body armor, or warming up night vision. I probably won't even have time to put on pants or shoes. Anything that needs to be switched on will be forgotten in my haste. The batteries in one of my flashlights will be dead no matter how religiously I check them. I will hopefully have time to un-ass my fart sack, and get my weapon pointed toward my predetermined lane of fire. In the time I am stumbling to the door of my bedroom to protect the hallway to the kids' rooms, hopefully my wife will have 911 on the horn.

My plan does not involve hoping that my dogs will fight the bad guys. Most dogs that are untrained are not attack dogs, and won't help much. My dogs are part of my early warning system. That is why they get the big bucks. The 100 pound German Shepherd in particular makes an awful racket when someone comes down our driveway. My dogs do not sleep in our room because they are more effective if placed at the top of the stairs down the hall. That is where their beds are, and that is where they sleep. They have a job to do, and my Shep takes it seriously.

I will not go hunting as stated before. I don't own anything worth shooting someone over. If I have time I will collect the kids into a defensive position.

I will be mounting a Trijicon Reflex on my 11.5" Bravo Company rifle that I get to bring home as soon as my tax stamp gets here. I like tritium for this particular assignment because there is nothing to switch on, it's small and light, and works pretty good indoors. My weapon will be ready to do its job as soon as I lay hands on it. Time is precious.

The alarm system will be something I look into soon. I love the panic button on the alarm clock thing that turns on all the lights. That's pretty sweet. I don't think the OC is such a great idea. My advice for what its worth(not much) would be to try it out first if you haven't already to see how it goes. Most entry teams that use OC or CS have gas masks to allow them to operate in such an environment. Then again, maybe it will work out great. I hope you test it and let us know, or educate us a little better on what brought you to decide that was the way to go.

Cool topic.:cool:

M4arc
02-01-07, 19:06
Cohiba, I have to know what HH6 means :D

I'm kinda like Hawkeye in that I'm going to hold my cards close to my vest but I will say a few general items.

1 - I'm glad I live in VA.
2 - Dogs. Big dogs. The wife's father taught juvenile delinquents. Not just your average JDs but the worst of the worst: murders, rapist, gang bangers, etc. They all said Dogs were their #1 deterrent when breaking into a house.
3 - Alarms are a good thing. Sensors on the doors and windows and glass breaking detectors are great add-ons.
4 - Charge your cell phones in the bedroom ;)

rhino
02-02-07, 00:01
Minor "hardening" of your house should give you more time to react. Those laminations you can do on your windows are pretty cool. A bad guy could get through them, but it will be noisy and take more time than a bare window. Solid core doors with good deadbolts are a must-have. Even those cheap alarms you can attach to doors that sound when they're open can give you some additional time to react.

Maximus
03-06-07, 16:10
I have the advantage of a two floor colonial home with only one stairway up. You can have all of the fun you want on the first floor and basement. But the stairs are no man's land.

We're in the same situation. They can party down stairs until the police show up, but the minute anyone tries to come up the stairs, all bets are off.

QuietShootr
03-06-07, 17:23
Cohiba, I have to know what HH6 means :D

I'm kinda like Hawkeye in that I'm going to hold my cards close to my vest but I will say a few general items.

1 - I'm glad I live in VA.
2 - Dogs. Big dogs. The wife's father taught juvenile delinquents. Not just your average JDs but the worst of the worst: murders, rapist, gang bangers, etc. They all said Dogs were their #1 deterrent when breaking into a house.
3 - Alarms are a good thing. Sensors on the doors and windows and glass breaking detectors are great add-ons.
4 - Charge your cell phones in the bedroom ;)

HouseHold 6 - otherwise known as the command element, for those who don't wear the pants in their house


:D

My setup is similar to Grant's - G19 with X200 for my wife, cell phones charge in the bedroom. Carbine with SF light, body armor, and so on...

One Shot
03-17-07, 23:17
Tear gas INSIDE your own home??? The first problem is to find out if your particular tear gas bomb uses heat/flame to generate the tear gas. If so, then you could be setting fire to your own home. Many of the police tear gas bombs burn extremely hot and can cause fires. In the 1970s there were several incidents where police tear gas grenades/bombs caused fires which destroyed/ruined several houses or buildings. Remember Cinque? The SLA? The kidnapping of Patti Hearst? Cinque and some of the SLA members died in a fire that was caused by a police tear gas grenade. The second thing to consider is the residual or after effects of tear gas. If you use tear gas in a place where there is carpeting, for many months afterwards people moving through the area will be kicking up tear gas that was left behind by the use of the grenade. Furniture, carpeting, lamp shades, curtains and so on will absorb various amounts of the tear gas and later on will release it just when you don't need or want it.

Here's what I suggest: If Johnnie Dirtbag breaks into your home, take care of him first. Once you've eliminated him as a problem, call an attorney of your choice. Day or night you should have your favorite attorney's phone number on speed dial or available in some fashion. Tell the attorney what has happened and listen to his advice. In fact, if you can, have him come to the scene right then to help control the damage. Somewhere along the way, you will have to notify the police. But no matter what, if you do talk to the police, make perfectly sure that you explain how afraid you were for your own life and the lives of your family members right from the very start of things. Also repeatedly say that you were not the aggressor and that you were defending your life and the lives of your family members. Don't be surprised if you do get taken to the police station, maybe in handcuffs, to talk to a detective or something. Keep repeating that you were afraid for your life and that you were defending the lives of your family members. If, however, the attorney says not to talk to any officers do just that. Be nice but firm in saying, "My attorney will answer any of your questions but, for now, I can't talk to you without my attorney present."

C4IGrant
03-18-07, 12:02
Tear gas INSIDE your own home??? The first problem is to find out if your particular tear gas bomb uses heat/flame to generate the tear gas. If so, then you could be setting fire to your own home. Many of the police tear gas bombs burn extremely hot and can cause fires. In the 1970s there were several incidents where police tear gas grenades/bombs caused fires which destroyed/ruined several houses or buildings. Remember Cinque? The SLA? The kidnapping of Patti Hearst? Cinque and some of the SLA members died in a fire that was caused by a police tear gas grenade. The second thing to consider is the residual or after effects of tear gas. If you use tear gas in a place where there is carpeting, for many months afterwards people moving through the area will be kicking up tear gas that was left behind by the use of the grenade. Furniture, carpeting, lamp shades, curtains and so on will absorb various amounts of the tear gas and later on will release it just when you don't need or want it.

Here's what I suggest: If Johnnie Dirtbag breaks into your home, take care of him first. Once you've eliminated him as a problem, call an attorney of your choice. Day or night you should have your favorite attorney's phone number on speed dial or available in some fashion. Tell the attorney what has happened and listen to his advice. In fact, if you can, have him come to the scene right then to help control the damage. Somewhere along the way, you will have to notify the police. But no matter what, if you do talk to the police, make perfectly sure that you explain how afraid you were for your own life and the lives of your family members right from the very start of things. Also repeatedly say that you were not the aggressor and that you were defending your life and the lives of your family members. Don't be surprised if you do get taken to the police station, maybe in handcuffs, to talk to a detective or something. Keep repeating that you were afraid for your life and that you were defending the lives of your family members. If, however, the attorney says not to talk to any officers do just that. Be nice but firm in saying, "My attorney will answer any of your questions but, for now, I can't talk to you without my attorney present."


Yes, tear gas grenade is a very bad idea for multiple reasons. That is why I said OC grenade. The particular item I referred to in my post is much like a bug bomb (no flame).

In many states, you cannot use lethal force if the intruder is unarmed. Of course if the bad guy is armed, don't waste your time with non lethal forms of persuasion.

Contacting a lawyer and letting them talk to the police is always a very good idea (good point).


C4

Hawkeye
03-18-07, 13:06
Contacting a lawyer and letting them talk to the police is always a very good idea (good point).


C4

That should be the ONLY thing you do. Give your ID/Drivers license, acknowledge that you are willing to co-operate/talk, but only once your lawyer is present, and say NOTHING else. NOTHING.
Of course, the person who advocated this to me is only a former State Attorney, private criminal defense attorney, and current Circuit Court Judge......

YCPDK9
03-18-07, 18:26
Excellent topic matter here and I agree with most of what has been said. As an LEO I would stay away from the OC and CS grenades, bombs, etc. In my experience OC is only 100% effective on cops. I have not fully researched this as a viable alternative, but a couple of beanbag rounds for openers, followed by some 00 buck if needed, out of the trusty 870 may meet the needs of those of you in a state where less lethal is the opening order of the day.

As far as the planning phase I think it is important to train your children to follow specific instructions when they are given. Your children, and in some cases your spouse, need to understand that when you say get into the bedroom that it is for real. I see all too often people that have not made an investment in their parenting skills so that when the situation demands a specific response from their children it doesn't happen. One needs to remember that in a dynamic situation many things will be occurring at one time. You may find yourself trying to carry your scared and screaming 6 year old down the hall in one arm while you are sending lead the other direction. Train for these situations. Also as part of your planning you need to practice family member rescues and uncoventional firing positions that you may find yourself in. There are several reputable traininers out there that will gladly assist those in need of assitance in the training and planning phases of their home defense. Seek them out.

CQB
03-18-07, 20:21
Last month I attended a Home Defense class hosted by LMS Defense. It was interesting to see other perspectives regarding safeguarding children and spouses in a gun fight. I for one have always ran drills through every home I've lived in. But there is something to be said for attending a formal class and getting some constructive criticism. Chappy gave us some key insight that many loved-ones may become disoriented and linger within a lane of fire for you, in these cases he teaches an interesting technique where you can isolate and guard your family member while safely hammering a volley at a bad guy. Here is a link to the class I attended: http://www.lmsdefense.com/lms/home/courseinstance/40

I can honestly say that I had a blast. With both newbee's and LEO's we all found something new to retain.

BB.

C4IGrant
03-18-07, 20:36
Excellent topic matter here and I agree with most of what has been said. As an LEO I would stay away from the OC and CS grenades, bombs, etc. In my experience OC is only 100% effective on cops. I have not fully researched this as a viable alternative, but a couple of beanbag rounds for openers, followed by some 00 buck if needed, out of the trusty 870 may meet the needs of those of you in a state where less lethal is the opening order of the day.

As far as the planning phase I think it is important to train your children to follow specific instructions when they are given. Your children, and in some cases your spouse, need to understand that when you say get into the bedroom that it is for real. I see all too often people that have not made an investment in their parenting skills so that when the situation demands a specific response from their children it doesn't happen. One needs to remember that in a dynamic situation many things will be occurring at one time. You may find yourself trying to carry your scared and screaming 6 year old down the hall in one arm while you are sending lead the other direction. Train for these situations. Also as part of your planning you need to practice family member rescues and uncoventional firing positions that you may find yourself in. There are several reputable traininers out there that will gladly assist those in need of assitance in the training and planning phases of their home defense. Seek them out.

To be honest, it really isn't important if the OC gas works or not. You simply want to show that you TRIED non lethal force before you fired a round. :D



C4

One Shot
03-20-07, 10:25
Most shooting clubs/ranges have attorneys who participate in shooting sports. I would check around at my club to see who is an attorney that is also a member of my club/range. I belong to three different shooting ranges and know 4 different attorneys who are into shooting sports. Get his name, get a business card from him when you can and have his phone number available in your home/bedroom area. To plan ahead is not a bad thing. So what if you never need his services? So much the better. But just in case... you'll be ready.

kbrdann
03-27-07, 20:17
This is a very good thread and every body has his or her opinoion. Here is mine. We all have our own firearms and have set them all up with all kinds of stuff. i have done the same thing and i love my carbine. For home defence i want to make sure its very hard for the bad guy to get in at all and if he does i dont want him to stick around. Here's what i've done. Weather you use a pistol or a carbine or what ever you need to harden your house. I have motion lights on the 4 corners of my house and when one goes on they all come on. I live in florida and i have hurricane windows and that helps. I don't have any other people in the house except for my girlfriend so idon't have to defend anyone else. My best defence are 2 large male rotties. Even if they do get in they won't stick around long. I have harden my bed room door and i have my cell phone with me. I plan on hunkering down let the dogs do there thing and call 911 and wait. I love my carbine and all the gagets for it but for real life i want my dogs and my cell phone. Thanks for listening

One Shot
04-04-07, 00:39
kbrdann, darn! I wished I had thought about hardening the entry door to one room. Good idea. Makes a lot of sense.

SIMPLYDYNAMIC
04-04-07, 04:59
I keep hearing "must use less than leathal course of action must be shown" well I have had the unfortunate luck to live in some commie states lately so I killed 2 birds with one stone and now I switched to a Shorty Siaga with less than leathal rubberball and wooden baton rounds... now I can engage with a weapon and show less than leathal the whole time... and in any direction in my house ie...wife and kids are more safe and it gives me a lot more options. Obviously having a G17 on backup but from my experience then LTL rounds will do the job... and hell...you can still tourture the guy afterwards...lol

PALADIN-hgwt
04-04-07, 08:52
xxxxx

John_Wayne777
05-12-07, 19:06
Something I think needs to be mentioned....

Home invasions don't just happen at night.

There have been numerous occasions in my locality of a group of 3-5 individuals who bust into a house during the day, or who have one guy knock on the door looking legit and then all bum rush the person at the door once the door is open.

That's the reason there is always a weapon within my reach when I am at home.

CPR
06-12-07, 12:46
Due to the layout of my home, I'll have to cross the entire house to get to my kid's room. There is no other option. I need to get the wife and I to a class. :cool:

WVBartMan
06-12-07, 17:57
About 30 years ago my Mom and Dad went out of town for the weekend and left my brother (16 years old at the time) and myself (14 years old at the time) home alone for the weekend. The car not in the driveway must have been the tip off and two bad guys decided to come a robbin. They broke out the downstairs glass window and woke my brother and I up. We immediately began loading our matching 742 (30-06) clips (2 each). Thankfully my parents had a large house and it took the Robbers some time to work there way upstairs where my brother and I were waiting for them laying on our stomachs at the end of the hall where our bedroom was.

As the Robbers entered the hallway my brother said "put your hands in the air". Robber Number 1 being a quick draw fired his 38 revolver in our direction but aimed high thinking we were standing. My brother and I returned fire and kept firing until we both had emptied both clips for each gun. We then quickly reloaded and waited. Back then most people only had one phone per floor in the house and we would have to get past the Robbers to get to it so we waited.

Thankfully the neighborhood woke up to the sound of a war going on and called the police. Robber Number 1 broke his leg and collar bone when he tripped running back down the steps. He was found a short time later by the police. Robber Number 1 gave up Robber Number 2 who was found at the hospital with a severe cut to his back when he dove out the basement window trying to get away from the line of fire. Both Robbers plead guilty and being there first offense and young recieved a minor sentence.

Now, something to consider, the next day we surveyed the damage from our gunfight, not pretty for our house and our neighbors house. The bullets from our rifles caused $4,731 in damage to our house and the one next to us. The only thing that probably saved my neighbor from being shot is his bedroom is in his basement.

Needless to say the Police thought it was funny but my Father did not once he saw the bill from the contractor. If the Robber would not have fired first then my Dad would have made my brother and I pay for the damages but since we had no choice he let us off. One note in closing, my ears rang for two days after that.

trio
06-26-07, 00:14
A couple of things to add...

1) Before I went to law school I worked a lot with criminals....for the most part they are not stupid...the majority of them that just want your stuff will have a plan and break in when you are not there....having said that...

the ones that DO break in while you are there probably have a plan for dealing with you....they know you are there, and are coming anyway....so you had sure as hell better have a plan for dealing with them....

The exception to this is the young, stupid kid, and dumb criminal (they do exist)....these are the ones the alarms and big dogs do a phenomenal job chasing off....

2) There is a better chance that your state has codified the "Castle Doctrine" than has a codified "duty to retreat"....last time I counted there were 23 states that had passed "Castle Doctrines"....whereas less than 10 (I think way less, but I dont remember off the top of my head...New York, Mass....damn liberal states)...had imposed a duty to retreat....

3) Even if your state has not codified the "Castle Doctrine" it is likely the baseline rule....the Castle Doctrine, after all, is derived from Common Law self defense theory which would be the baseline theory in most states...in Virginia, for example, there is no codified Castle Doctrine, but it is the baseline because Virginia follows the Common Law for self defense (in fact, when the Castle Doctrine was in the GA it died because it pretty much resembled case law)....I believe the same can be said for Ohio....even if it isnt there is a current bill in the Ohio State Senate to bring the Castle Doctrine to Ohio

(the one exception to this, of course, would be Louisiana which is based on the Napoleonic code and not Common law...but not to fret you bayou bengals....Louisiana has adopted the Castle Doctrine into law....)


At any rate....I appreciate the want and desire to CYA in the event of a home invasion, but my point is this....

1) Chances are you are going to have VERY little time to respond

2) Your response is PROBABLY going to be against someone who is close to as prepared for you as you are for him....and he has the shock and surprise factor on his side....

3) In a home invasion scenario for me, at 2am, waking me from a dead sleep, there is no non lethal option....i have a 5 year old and a 1 year old down the hall and passed the stairs who are damn sure counting on Daddy to come get them...

And you know what? Daddy is coming....with a Mossy 500 with 8+1 of Ranger 000 Buck and Slug and a Cz SP-01 with 19+1 of 147 gr RA9Ts

One Shot
06-26-07, 06:53
One thing I've been waiting for somebody to mention is using tear gas inside of buildings with kids. Little lungs do NOT handle tear gas very well. If you have a child with a cold that has lung congestion, asthma or other pulmonary problem do NOT use ANY FORM OF TEAR GAS near them. So there you are, all set with your standard plan that you initiate only to cause your own kid to choke to death because his lungs were weak and you used tear gas indoors. There comes a time and place, which is why The Castle Doctrine is being adopted by more and more states, where criminals are the ones that need to be held accountable for their actions. If you break into MY HOME, there will be NO discussion of YOUR social needs, NO alternative plans to express myself in a non-lethal manner and NO politically correct games. YOU are the danger to me and my family while we are inside our home. YOU were NOT invited in by me. YOU are attacking me and making a tumultous entry into my castle and I WILL punch your ticket for you. Better be lugging an air conditioner with you because where that ticket I punch for you will send you is a place where you WILL need one. When you get there, say "Hey." to Sadam for us. I don't live in the Peoples' Republics of Kalifornia, New Yawk or Taxachusetts so I do NOT have to worry about silly quirks in the laws as long as I do what I think is reasonable and prudent, which I will. Hence, no tear gas for me and mine. And no tear gas anywhere near ANY infants, people with lung problems or young children with lungs that could potentially be hurt by such gas.

Hootiewho
07-15-07, 20:51
I was just reading this and wanted to toss a few comments into the mix.

1st, if you are dead set on using non lethal force first, I believe a better option for you would be to get an M203 on your M4, load it up with a rubber bullet or baton round. You are going to run into problems with the gas, unless you have prepared. Do you have gas mask for all adults in the house. Say your door gets kicked in and a gun fight insues, the gas is in your room now and your vision as well as your wife's is obscured. Have you guys practiced shooting with a gas mask on? Are your rifle optics mask friendly? If only you have a mask, and you get wounded and your wife has to take up the fight, will she be able to do that.

2nd, and someone said, don't assume that it will be 2 am when you are asleep that trouble comes knocking. You could be sitting in the chair at 8 pm watching tv with your family and a distressed woman knocks at the door. You open the door for her, cause it looks safe enough, next thing you know you have 3 to 4 guys rush you at the door. I know someone personally that this happened to and the homeowner ended up getting shot as well as one of the invaders. Odds are whenever it happens you will have little if no time to react.

I think that it is good practice to have a gun in every room of the house, even the bathroom. Even if you go and get a cheap police trade in Glock 9mm or 40. I would have every gun the same, such as a glock 19, equiped with a light like a x200 and a spare magazine. Imagine you are at home, at 6am taking your moring glory while your family sleeps. You are reading your newspaper, then bam, someone kicks in your back door. Are you prepared, same if you are in the shower. Would it not make sense to have that glock in the bathroom, so that you don't get killed while taking a dump or a shower? Have a gun by the door. There are in the wall safes that you can get that are not bad looking. I would also have lights outside the house, with controls in different places in the house. I would be weary of turning on inside lights, because you are highlighting yourself and your position. With the outside lights on you should have ample lighting to outline any bad guy that might be inside.

Get a couple dogs, like German Shepards. If you have kids, and have those dogs from pups especially if they have grown up with the kids, someone will have to kill the dogs before they ever let anyone touch the kids. German Shepards are especially protect of their owners, as are blue healers, austrailian shepards.

I would be very careful with the gas, as it could be trouble for you as well as for them. I have seen an add for a security system used over in Europe, that if an intruder enters a bank or business with intent to rob, it fills the building with a think, white smoke that stays there for about 30 mins. You know your house, you know where all the furnature sits, what parts of the floor creak; the intruder doesn't. If I were gonna use any gas at all, I'd use smoke. Through a smoke grenade or two, then shut the door to your room. If the bad guys can't see what to steal, where to walk to steal it, they may follow the outside light and get out of the house. If that didn't make them leave, it would disorienant them enought that it would buy you time to make decisions, call police and find a throw away knife that you could lay in his hand after you shoot him.:D

toddackerman
09-17-07, 22:49
I agree, but wanted people to start thinking about what they would do in a home invasion situation (don't think people put much thought into it). People also don't have ANY idea about their States laws.



C4

Grant,

Fortunately I do live in a state (Colorado) where all they have to do is cross the threshold (uninvited) and you can "Pop 'em". It's called the "Make my day law" and it's been around for 10 years or so.

But that wasn't always the case, and I had the same concerns you do. Actually, I still have some of those concerns as it's not what's justifiable only to the law. Your several suggested attempts at keeping the BG at bay demonstrate your concern for this as well.

I think everything you have done is logical, and well thought out. ESPECIALLY the cell phone for the 911 call. And yes...it is becoming more common for exterior communications to be cut by the bad guys before entering. The sooner you make that call, and they can start recording everything that is going on, including "get out, get out, get out" before any "Bang"...the better off you'll be when "Tried by 12".

You have done everything to show in court that the Bad Guy had "Ability, Opportunity, and you were in "Jeopardy" which is what I think that any rational person on a jury would need to see to vote "Not Guilty". In states where the use of lethal force needs to be justified, "Ability, Opportunity. and Jeopardy" have pretty much been the standard for judgement. I have heard of times when criminal charges won't even be filed by the DA if it was very clear that these 3 things existed....ALL 3!

The only real concern that I would still think about is how to get the kids into your room without the possibililiteis of taking a direct hit. Hopefully, their room is very close to yours...like "Around the corner".

Tack

KevinB
09-18-07, 07:39
Well part of my Villa defence plan here involves a M67 rolling down the stair case...

Unfortunately my condo board in Fla does not agree with that measure. :mad:

Seriously I think Pat Rogers gave the best info on 10-8 about this.
Keep your plans safe and secure - and NOT on the net.

C4IGrant
09-18-07, 07:45
One thing I've been waiting for somebody to mention is using tear gas inside of buildings with kids. Little lungs do NOT handle tear gas very well. If you have a child with a cold that has lung congestion, asthma or other pulmonary problem do NOT use ANY FORM OF TEAR GAS near them. So there you are, all set with your standard plan that you initiate only to cause your own kid to choke to death because his lungs were weak and you used tear gas indoors. There comes a time and place, which is why The Castle Doctrine is being adopted by more and more states, where criminals are the ones that need to be held accountable for their actions. If you break into MY HOME, there will be NO discussion of YOUR social needs, NO alternative plans to express myself in a non-lethal manner and NO politically correct games. YOU are the danger to me and my family while we are inside our home. YOU were NOT invited in by me. YOU are attacking me and making a tumultous entry into my castle and I WILL punch your ticket for you. Better be lugging an air conditioner with you because where that ticket I punch for you will send you is a place where you WILL need one. When you get there, say "Hey." to Sadam for us. I don't live in the Peoples' Republics of Kalifornia, New Yawk or Taxachusetts so I do NOT have to worry about silly quirks in the laws as long as I do what I think is reasonable and prudent, which I will. Hence, no tear gas for me and mine. And no tear gas anywhere near ANY infants, people with lung problems or young children with lungs that could potentially be hurt by such gas.

This is true about the tear gas and childred. You have to apply everything to YOUR situation.


C4

C4IGrant
09-18-07, 07:51
Well part of my Villa defence plan here involves a M67 rolling down the stair case...

Unfortunately my condo board in Fla does not agree with that measure. :mad:

Seriously I think Pat Rogers gave the best info on 10-8 about this.
Keep your plans safe and secure - and NOT on the net.

I agree. This thread was meant to stimulate conversation and get people to think about what they were doing (or not doing).

Most everything that I wrote on page one is different than what I would actually do or use (even the part about non-lethal force). I am more of a lethal force kind of guy than a non lethal one. ;)


C4

Nathan_Bell
09-18-07, 08:04
I agree. This thread was meant to stimulate conversation and get people to think about what they were doing (or not doing).

Most everything that I wrote on page one is different than what I would actually do or use (even the part about non-lethal force). I am more of a lethal force kind of guy than a non lethal one. ;)


C4


;) Grant's local swat team is afraid of him.

C4IGrant
09-18-07, 08:06
;) Grant's local swat team is afraid of him.


LOL, that is not true (well maybe). :eek:



C4

Hawkeye
09-18-07, 08:17
Seriously I think Pat Rogers gave the best info on 10-8 about this.
Keep your plans safe and secure - and NOT on the net.

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of detailed info some people are willing to put out on the net, about various things......

KintlaLake
09-18-07, 10:29
My family and I have spent a lot of time on home security and defense. I'm enjoying this thread (and learning a thing or two), and I thought I'd share (in general terms) some of what we do.

First, I married well. :D When I met my bride, she was working in private security and was schooled in strategy and tactics -- but for home security and defense, her skills are perhaps less relevant than her mindset. Now she earns her keep in the security-systems business, which has its own benefits (below).

When we bought our home, we addressed locks and lighting immediately. We then scouted the property and formulated our plan for electronic measures. (Buying hardware at cost was the other benefit of marrying well. :D )

Then we chose a system installer -- the 20-year-old moonlighting nephew of my wife's co-worker -- and that's when the fertilizer hit the ventilator. Hard.

The kid's electrical work was solid, if slow, but he hit the wall when it came to programming the system. When we told him that we'd withhold further payment 'til the system was operational, he went ballistic and started ripping live electrical lines from the basement joists. :eek: Fortunately, my H2H skills weren't as rusty as I thought, and I was successful in, um, physically persuading him (and his brother, who made the fracas two-on-one :eek: :eek: ) to leave.

I'm not bragging 'bout that -- it was the embarrassing result of several stoopid choices. :o I digressed to illustrate how important it is to choose a skilled, experienced and trustworthy installer. Get professional and personal references -- don't make the choice based on an infomercial or a Yellow Pages ad.

Or nepotism, for that matter. :rolleyes:

Long story short, we now have three-level electronic security, with a fourth to come. Belt and suspenders, if you will...butter and margarine... ;)

As for defense, my personal choice of a defensive handgun (G19) was based in large part on my wife’s primary (G26) -- same manual of arms, same caliber, and no mental gymnastics under stress if one or the other becomes a backup. Likewise our kissing-cousin Mossbergs, although I may liberate my rifle before reaching for a 12ga.

We have spawns ;) in their curious and hormone-charged teens, so our defensive weapons and ammunition are always secured -- but they’re secured in such a way that my wife and I can access them in seconds.

Miscellany: Mobile phones are either on the belt or charging at the bedside. Weapon-mounted and hand-held SureFires and handy MagLites. Two alarm dogs. Generic electronic-security signs posted conspicuously around the property, to discourage opportunists. A good relationship with the security monitoring service, which knows our duress and hostage codes, and a “cell backup” (digital) in case the land line is down. Key-ring-mounted panic fobs for all.

All that said, we firmly believe that the real key to surviving a threat is our plan. We've designated a primary safe room, and the spawns have “safe places” where they can hunker down until we can get them into the safe room (or if we can’t). We’ve established code words to communicate threat (intruder), acknowledgement (the equivalent of “Marco...Polo”) and “all clear.” That may seem like a contrivance, but the spawns know the difference between “C’mon out, everything’s ok” and the code for that condition -- no secret word, no safety, stay put.

Most important, we drill our plan (daylight, low light and no light), with the goal of survival-in-place until law enforcement arrives. No heroics, no machismo. (Try communicating that to a 15-year-old who’s convinced that paintball experience will save the day. :rolleyes: )

Security first, survival second, defense as last resort.

KintlaLake
09-18-07, 11:02
Due to the layout of my home, I'll have to cross the entire house to get to my kid's room. There is no other option. I need to get the wife and I to a class. :cool:

See my post, above. My wife and I made the decision to establish "safe places" for the spawns, in case we can't get to them in the event of a nighttime threat. We'll reel them into the safe room if we can, but their "safe places" provide both concealment and (if we have to resort to defensive measures before retrieving them) reasonable cover.

120mm
10-03-07, 05:45
Get a couple dogs, like German Shepards. If you have kids, and have those dogs from pups especially if they have grown up with the kids, someone will have to kill the dogs before they ever let anyone touch the kids. German Shepards are especially protect of their owners, as are blue healers, austrailian shepards.


I truly think the Australian Shepherd is the best self-defense dog in the universe. That particular breed will throw their life away without thinking, if "their human" is in peril. My dad and I bred them for years and the stories that came back from satisfied owners were amazing.

I once made the mistake of telling one to "stay" and going into the house, and leaving by another door. My folks tell me it refused to leave the door for the 24hours I was gone.

Back on subject: My wife and I have never lived in a house where us and our kids were all on one floor. Being able to confront "bumps in the night" and investigate strange noises are a necessary feature of our lives.

I've found that when my wife or I hear something, I get an adrenaline dump, and incredibly calmness and clarity right away. No grogginess at all, here. But I've had a little bit of training, and am naturally a quickly awake and alert person.

kbrdann
10-03-07, 21:34
Yes i too agree that the dog is the best home defence for your home and property. We can right books all day long as to what the best dog is. Its the one that works for you. I am a rottie fan. Go get the kids while the dog takes care of the bad guy.

Hootiewho
10-13-07, 04:37
A friend of mine has an Austrailian Shephard, and if you go to his house the dog will come out and greet you making you think all is fine, but the one second you step on his porch that dog will change moods. It will absolutely not let you off the porch. He will eat your ass up if you try. You have to satand there and wait for the owner to tell the dog it is alright and then the dog will back off. So if someone did break into his house, he might get in and get a hand full, but he'd never make it to the car. They are great dogs.

120mm
10-13-07, 06:29
Okay, okay, just one "Australian Shepherd" 'superdog' story. About one pup a litter is born severely mutated. Extra paws, maybe even an extra head, but the most common mutation (besides the bi-colored eyes) is albinism. And the albino dogs are most often completely blind.

We tried not to put a dog down, just because it was blind, so we'd give it away. One, we gave to an elderly, shut-in woman, whom we visited every couple days anyway. The blind dog and the elderly woman were a match made in heaven.

One day, a couple of thugs broke in while the woman was sleeping. The way the cops found out about it, was that one extremely beat to hell thug called the county sheriff, crying and begging for them to come get his buddy out of the house. The dog had tore the shit out of both of them, and was still alive, though badly hurt, inside the house. So was the thug's "buddy". But Mr. Thug didn't want to go back in, no more.

When all was said and done, we buried the dog, gave her another one, and the thug's "buddy" was missing a lot of blood and his right achilles' tendon. We put a marker over the dog's grave that said "Sally - Good Dog".

C4IGrant
10-13-07, 08:02
Okay, okay, just one "Australian Shepherd" 'superdog' story. About one pup a litter is born severely mutated. Extra paws, maybe even an extra head, but the most common mutation (besides the bi-colored eyes) is albinism. And the albino dogs are most often completely blind.

We tried not to put a dog down, just because it was blind, so we'd give it away. One, we gave to an elderly, shut-in woman, whom we visited every couple days anyway. The blind dog and the elderly woman were a match made in heaven.

One day, a couple of thugs broke in while the woman was sleeping. The way the cops found out about it, was that one extremely beat to hell thug called the county sheriff, crying and begging for them to come get his buddy out of the house. The dog had tore the shit out of both of them, and was still alive, though badly hurt, inside the house. So was the thug's "buddy". But Mr. Thug didn't want to go back in, no more.

When all was said and done, we buried the dog, gave her another one, and the thug's "buddy" was missing a lot of blood and his right achilles' tendon. We put a marker over the dog's grave that said "Sally - Good Dog".


God has a special place for dog's like that.


C4

9x19
10-13-07, 12:21
We had four dogs when I was growing up. My dad was self-employed and well known for his generosity in our area. We had a lot of people, of all kinds, who would stop by our house. I guess a lot of those people didn't know breeds, because people were more afraid of our Irish Setter than either our two German Shepherds, or our Border Collie. The Irish Setter was very tall, and he immediately barked a greeting to anyone who visited. People were afraid to leave their vehicles when we had the Setter, but they would get out if the Shepherds or the Collie were there. The Shepherds were unconcerned by some people and with others they would observe them, or growl so low that they were hardly heard by us. The Border Collie was very observant, sometimes barking and he always waited to see what was going to happen.

The Irish Setter would have helped a burglar carry off everything if he'd had opposable thumbs. He was very friendly and not protective at all. The Border Collie was protective, but I never saw him do what the two German Shepherds once did. Two scruffy guys walked through the gate and up the driveway to my mother's car. They circled it a couple of times, while they kept looking back at the house. All the while, we neither saw nor heard the two German Shepherds. As soon as the guys turned their backs to the backyard, the dogs flew up behind them within biting distance, and both then barked. The two lowlifes took off running, with the dogs close behind. I walked out of the house after they took off and about 1/2 mile down the road I lost sight of them when they went around a curve. About 45 minutes later, the dogs returned and I swear they were laughing and smiling. That was one time I would have liked for them to be able to talk.

I think dogs are great to have for an early alert. The dogs were great to have when you live out in the country. They often alerted us to someone sneaking around on the property at night.

C4IGrant
10-13-07, 12:57
There is a thread going on another forum about whiche weapon is best to use for home defense. Several of the posters state that a shotgun is best because the simple sound of it being "racked" is enough to scary anyone away. I am always blown away by this level of stupidity. They seem not to realize that it doesn't work like that AND the fact that they are giving away their position. So any advantages they may have had, are gone. :rolleyes:



C4

toddackerman
10-13-07, 13:30
There is a thread going on another forum about whiche weapon is best to use for home defense. Several of the posters state that a shotgun is best because the simple sound of it being "racked" is enough to scary anyone away. I am always blown away by this level of stupidity. They seem not to realize that it doesn't work like that AND the fact that they are giving away their position. So any advantages they may have had, are gone. :rolleyes:



C4

I agree 100%! The element of surprise continues to be one of the major aspects of "The Art of War". IF you choose the "Shotty", I would think that a loaded chamber, with the safety on (Condition 1) is best for ANY weapons' system state of readiness. Those who might say that "Cruiser Ready" (empty chamber, and one round of capacity left in the Mag. tube) allows you to drop a round into the Mag. Tube and cycle it into the action, might need to re-think this.

You're in YOUR home. If using a 12 GA., I would want to know the terrain, furniture patterns, stairs, landings etc., the longest distances to each corner from your specific location anywhere in the house, and what your "Shotty" patterns like with the loads in the gun at those distances.

For those who decide to use the 12 GA. for home defense...

I tested the Federal "Flite Control Wad" Tactical load the other day, and at 45 feet, all 9 pellets stayed inside a 3"- 4" pattern. At 20 feet, it was a 1 1/2 - 2" pattern. (Couldn't measure it well because the wad went through the same holes as the shot.)

(9) .33 caliber copper plated pellets, weighing 49 gns. ea, at 1325 FPS, and patterns like the ones above will definitely ruin the BG's day. But watch out for over penetration...much worse than a 75gn. FMJ 5.56mm carbine load. Copper pellets don't expand!

Tack

Nathan_Bell
10-26-07, 11:40
There is a thread going on another forum about whiche weapon is best to use for home defense. Several of the posters state that a shotgun is best because the simple sound of it being "racked" is enough to scary anyone away. I am always blown away by this level of stupidity. They seem not to realize that it doesn't work like that AND the fact that they are giving away their position. So any advantages they may have had, are gone. :rolleyes:



C4


I had to leave a gunshop a few weeks ago because the counter guy was using that as a selling point :rolleyes:

Shook my head, muttered "idiot" and left. Unfortunately the couple stood there nodding their heads

KintlaLake
10-26-07, 12:23
There is a thread going on another forum about whiche weapon is best to use for home defense. Several of the posters state that a shotgun is best because the simple sound of it being "racked" is enough to scary anyone away. I am always blown away by this level of stupidity. They seem not to realize that it doesn't work like that AND the fact that they are giving away their position. So any advantages they may have had, are gone. :rolleyes:

Grant, isn't that right up there with, "A shotgun is best because you don't have to aim it"?

Gawd. :rolleyes:

Jay Cunningham
10-26-07, 12:59
Grant, isn't that right up there with, "A shotgun is best because you don't have to aim it"?

Gawd. :rolleyes:

Also right up there with "loaded with birdshot" and "a .38 snubbie w/ Glaser Safety Slugs"...

...wait a minute - that sounds like me from five years ago!

:o

John_Wayne777
10-26-07, 13:11
There is a thread going on another forum about whiche weapon is best to use for home defense. Several of the posters state that a shotgun is best because the simple sound of it being "racked" is enough to scary anyone away.


I cleaned my 870 the other day and accidentally racked it.

Half of the neighborhood lost all bowel control. They other half went blind for 48 hours.

markm
10-26-07, 14:07
Lumpy and I used to try to enlighten the Shotgun for home defense tards on TOS.

It was a losing battle.... We just referred to the Shotgun forum as the special education area.

If you really want to get pissed read the last edition of the BLUE PRESS, and that stupid Taurus 45LC/.410 revolver called "the judge". The author says a .410 shell out of the pistol will give someone a real attitude adjustment....

Yeah! It will piss him off and he'll jam it up your ass for puting bird shot into his RAIDERS jersey! :rolleyes:

Hootiewho
10-26-07, 14:47
I cleaned my 870 the other day and accidentally racked it.

Half of the neighborhood lost all bowel control. They other half went blind for 48 hours.


Yep, has the same effect as a Train Horn, Bomb Droping, or God himself calling you down.

120mm
10-27-07, 02:02
Also right up there with "loaded with birdshot" and "a .38 snubbie w/ Glaser Safety Slugs"...

...wait a minute - that sounds like me from five years ago!

:o

Me, too! But then I grew up.

DKircher
10-28-07, 21:56
...snip...If you really want to get pissed read the last edition of the BLUE PRESS, and that stupid Taurus 45LC/.410 revolver called "the judge". The author says a .410 shell out of the pistol will give someone a real attitude adjustment....

Yeah! It will piss him off and he'll jam it up your ass for puting bird shot into his RAIDERS jersey! :rolleyes:

So true!

That right there is why I've always loved you markm, I don't care what anyone says about you!:p

supertac
12-03-07, 21:27
I love Florida.

Step one: Get gun

Step two: Shoot intruder till he quits moving.

Sid Post
12-29-07, 15:24
This thread has hit three major widespread misconceptions about the shotgun used in home defense:

Racking the slide will scare the bad guy away
You don't have to aim with a shotgun because it has a big pattern
Birdshot is an effective home defense load


You can add firing from the hip to the list too!

As explained to a co-workers friend the other day, birdshot might work well on a quail but, a drugged up leather wearing adversary won't go down as easy. You need penetration. That load that you think won't over penetrate might not penetrate enough.

Go to a construction site and get some scrap sheetrock and shoot it. You might learn something beneficial if you try different distances and different loads.

toddackerman
12-29-07, 17:38
So true!

That right there is why I've always loved you markm, I don't care what anyone says about you!:p

He doesn't care either! :)