View Full Version : Surefire Suppressor Tough as F***
justlikeanyoneelse
09-18-12, 01:12
Last Saturday I went to my outdoor range and fired close to 2100 rounds thru my Surefire Mini suppressor. At the end of the session the suppressor would not come off. Believe me I tried everything...it was unbelievable. Yes I put even more rounds through it to try and heat it up...no success. However due to operators error, I forgot to tighten the lock ring on my final attempt and fired a MK262 thru it...the can flew 25 yards, hit the concrete, and landed in the mud. My first thought was "Shit I am out a grand." However when I retrieved the mini it was A-ok. Had minor scratches but other than that no problems.
Some people say that Surefire cans are overpriced and aren't as quiet as the competitions, but I had a first hand experience and to an extent understand why SOCOM chose Surefire. BZ Surefire.
Take this for what its worth.
That's one way to do it. It's even in the KAC manual I'm told.
Great cans.
In particular I like how they are meant to put baffle strike bullets out the muzzle instead of the side.
That's one way to do it. It's even in the KAC manual I'm told. <snip>
This is correct. There are instructions in the KAC manual on removing the NT4 by "shooting" it off.
Last Saturday I went to my outdoor range and fired close to 2100 rounds thru my Surefire Mini suppressor. At the end of the session the suppressor would not come off. Believe me I tried everything...it was unbelievable. Yes I put even more rounds through it to try and heat it up...no success. However due to operators error, I forgot to tighten the lock ring on my final attempt and fired a MK262 thru it...the can flew 25 yards, hit the concrete, and landed in the mud. My first thought was "Shit I am out a grand." However when I retrieved the mini it was A-ok. Had minor scratches but other than that no problems.
Some people say that Surefire cans are overpriced and aren't as quiet as the competitions, but I had a first hand experience and to an extent understand why SOCOM chose Surefire. BZ Surefire.
Take this for what its worth.
Is this the new latch that locks onto the teeth integral to the can, or old latch that locks onto the teeth on the mount?
ETA: Just post-stalked you and found the answer. Interesting that you had such issue with the new style.
Last Saturday I went to my outdoor range and fired close to 2100 rounds thru my Surefire Mini suppressor.
What the muther Fudge? :blink:
I might have that amount of ammo through my can that I've owned for 3 plus years.
Save me your brass pile! :eek:
Magic_Salad0892
09-18-12, 15:11
This is correct. There are instructions in the KAC manual on removing the NT4 by "shooting" it off.
I've always thought that was interesting.
TBH. SureFire, and KAC cans sound exactly the same as every other can.
I shot SF and the NT4 side by side. Preferred to KAC tone but couldn't hear a difference in sound.
Too bad it was not on camera
Yes I put even more rounds through it to try and heat it up...no success.
How would that work?
Seems to me heating expands metal and makes things tighter not looser. I know I have to wait for my cans to "cool off" sometimes.
And can anyone show me the "shoot it off" part of the manual? I've never even heard of something like that. How the hell do you avoid baffle strikes?
The bullet at 2800 fps passes the can before the gas can make it accelerate.
justlikeanyoneelse
09-18-12, 22:41
markm- I am actually going on a private shoot on Oct 1st, I will have to police my brass, If you want I will send it to you if you cover shipping. I will shoot 1000 rounds of Priv M193 and 500 MK262. I can not guarantee I'll get all 1500 but I can get close. PM me if your interested.
steyr- In the Surefire instructions it says, "If possible, the suppressor should be removed and re-installed while still slightly warm to prevent carbon fouling from solidifying as the unit cools, making later removal more difficult." I do not follow your logic in metal expanding, wouldn't expanding metal loosen instead of tighten? Also I did not know you could shoot of the suppressor, as there is no mention of that in my version of the manual.
What the muther Fudge? :blink:
I might have that amount of ammo through my can that I've owned for 3 plus years.
Save me your brass pile! :eek:
everyusernametaken
09-18-12, 22:59
Using gas pressure to remove the suppressor may work, as long as the can is still seated and aligned properly, but I certainly wouldn't be comfortable doing it myself.
If that really is documented by the manufacturer as an acceptable means of getting the can free from the mount, I would imagine they also advise only resorting to this in an emergency. That is a potentially very dangerous situation.
The bullet at 2800 fps passes the can before the gas can make it accelerate.
I can accept the math but I've seen too many struck baffles to be that brave.
steyr- In the Surefire instructions it says, "If possible, the suppressor should be removed and re-installed while still slightly warm to prevent carbon fouling from solidifying as the unit cools, making later removal more difficult." I do not follow your logic in metal expanding, wouldn't expanding metal loosen instead of tighten? Also I did not know you could shoot of the suppressor, as there is no mention of that in my version of the manual.
Interesting, I suppose the carbon fouling angle makes sense. It has been my experience that expanding metal binds tighter. This is why some "hot" machine guns lock up.
saddlerocker
09-18-12, 23:26
I can see the thin metal of the suppressor heating up faster than the barrel. A suppressor gets red hot fairly quick. A barrel or muzzle device takes a while.
Therefore the suppressor will expand more than the muzzle device mount, thus loosing it.
Makes sense to me.
I think I would spend about a week trying more conventional ways of getting it off.
Then call surefire and see what they have to say before I tried to shoot it off and risk $1200 and a 7 month wait.
I don't have a SF manual, but here is the similar instructions in the KAC NT-4 manual-
http://www.tenpoundmonkey.com/web/remove.jpg
everyusernametaken
09-19-12, 10:09
I don't have a SF manual, but here is the similar instructions in the KAC NT-4 manual-
http://www.tenpoundmonkey.com/web/remove.jpg
"Point the weapon towards the enemy or in an otherwise safe direction"
Did they just throw this silencer at us?!
"Point the weapon towards the enemy or in an otherwise safe direction"
Did they just throw this silencer at us?!
I'd like to see haji try to pick that thing up after a good firefight...
I'd like to see haji try to pick that thing up after a good firefight...
ha ha:
http://www.strictlycinema.com/Toht_burned_hand.jpg
saddlerocker
09-19-12, 10:55
Anyone know the reason to point the magazine upward?
Fireman1291
09-19-12, 11:12
Anyone know the reason to point the magazine upward?
I'm guessing the latch has something to do with it.
Reagans Rascals
09-19-12, 11:16
Anyone know the reason to point the magazine upward?
I think it simply means to keep it vertical.... as in... bottom to the deck... top to the sky... as it would be loaded in the gun if the gun was kept horizontal as it states...
I'm guessing the latch has something to do with it.
Yes.
The gate on the NT4 that holds the can on the mount opens upward. If you are trying to shoot the can off of your gun, you need to hold the weapon upside down so the gate doesn't inadvertantly close and keep the can on the gun.
I can see the thin metal of the suppressor heating up faster than the barrel. A suppressor gets red hot fairly quick. A barrel or muzzle device takes a while.
Therefore the suppressor will expand more than the muzzle device mount, thus loosing it.
Makes sense to me.
I think I would spend about a week trying more conventional ways of getting it off.
Then call surefire and see what they have to say before I tried to shoot it off and risk $1200 and a 7 month wait.
All dimensions expand, so the ring around the muzzle device expands and tightens the gap.
Another member here posted a YouTube video using blanks to shoot off his Surefire can.
ETA: it was RetreatHell
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN1nWdbrihs&feature=plcp
You might skip to around 4min mark or more as RH gives a lengthy (yet necessary) explanation of what he is doing.
viperashes
09-20-12, 14:56
Yes.
The gate on the NT4 that holds the can on the mount opens upward. If you are trying to shoot the can off of your gun, you need to hold the weapon upside down so the gate doesn't inadvertantly close and keep the can on the gun.
It's also situationally dictating. I had an issued NT4 that had a very tight gate, so holding the weapon upside down was unneccessary the single time that I had to do this to get the can off.
The NT4 is a pretty easy can to get off a mount typically though. Even if it does lock onto the mount, using the gate as a kind of leverage point, it's pretty easy to twist the can just a little bit to break it loose, then wiggle it back and forth to pull it off the mount. As for other cans such as an AAC or SF, this is obviously not possible, especially with an AAC.
I've had my M42K for a good 7 months now, and have put thousands of rounds through it already (it's already had to have both ends of it refinished). I've gotten it stuck a couple times. Once the can was cool and I realized that it was stuck, I just smashed the latch down to make sure that it wouldn't catch any teeth on the mount and used a rubber gripper pad on the can to get a little bit more traction on it. If you have your mount installed the way it's supposed to be, wrenching on the can isn't going to make the mount come off with it. Which I think is a big worry for some people, for whatever reason.
Gun Gallery has a video of them doing this. Not sure where its at.
justlikeanyoneelse
10-08-12, 20:40
Too make a long story short my mini surefire suppressor becomes very loose after 10ish shots.
On oct 1 I attended a private shoot and about 90 rounds in I started to get double feeds, stovepipes, and failures to extract. This has never happened before with and without the mini, so please spare me the buffer and spring suggestion. I decided to completely disassemble the rifle to try and figure out the problem and that's when I noticed that the mini was very loose. The mount/flash hider was rock solid, upon closer inspection the locking ring did not maintain lock. Just got back conus and tmrw will contact surefire.
I update this because I have never heard any real feedback on surefire suppressors.
The mini runs on a 416 10 inch.
Hey justlikeanyoneelse I will want the adapter to come in as well if you can. I have not ever had a suppressor come in that was able to "shoot" loose. The way the angle of the engagment teeth are,with out depressing the latch they actually engage harder. We will figure this out one way or the other.
justlikeanyoneelse
10-09-12, 20:12
Hey justlikeanyoneelse I will want the adapter to come in as well if you can. I have not ever had a suppressor come in that was able to "shoot" loose. The way the angle of the engagment teeth are,with out depressing the latch they actually engage harder. We will figure this out one way or the other.
Honestly did not think I'd get your attention, I could not get the adapter off today and shipped the suppressor out. I did make sure the adapter (212A) was not the part loosening, the locking ring was "unlocking." By that I mean when I attach the suppressor its rock solid but after 10 rounds the ring starts to lose that rock solid grip. PM inbound with the RMA.
Thanks
Honestly did not think I'd get your attention, I could not get the adapter off today and shipped the suppressor out. I did make sure the adapter (212A) was not the part loosening, the locking ring was "unlocking." By that I mean when I attach the suppressor its rock solid but after 10 rounds the ring starts to lose that rock solid grip. PM inbound with the RMA.
Thanks
I have heard from people who dealt with them a while back that Surefire is not very good at dealing with civilians regarding their suppressors.
A few years back, I think this was true.
Currently, Surefire seems to have a VERY! strong presence and they indeed are very easy to gain the attention of. Everything I have seen from them indicates that they care and will make sure that you are taken care of ASAP!
That is part of why I am waiting on my second 556-212 to clear--Garin Lee AKA Kudu22 took the time to answer all my dang questions. If he is going to do that, I promise you that he has time to fix any problem that may arise over the course of my ownership---and Surefire will probably outlive me. They are a large, strong company/brand and are profitable.
Further, Kudu22:
Will you post up what went wrong with this when you get it? We already know who has a problem, and what the problem's symptoms are, so I don't think that posting up the resolution would violate the man's privacy, but then, I could be wrong. Either way, I hope you or the OP will tell us what's wrong!
Me personally? I think when the suppressor was shot off the latch was engaged partially and it has sustained damage.
I'd kick someone in the nuts for telling me SF didn't take care of civilian customers. They have taken excellent care of me.
justlikeanyoneelse
10-09-12, 21:51
Me personally? I think when the suppressor was shot off the latch was engaged partially and it has sustained damage.
When I get the info on what happened I'll post it, I do not mind. On that note I think you are right, I just hope it does not cost an arm and a leg to fix it. As for Surefire CS my experiences with them have been excellent.
I'd kick someone in the nuts for telling me SF didn't take care of civilian customers. They have taken excellent care of me.
Surefire has also taken very good care of me.
I have nothing ill to say about them. However, they were very restrictive in the suppressor world when it came to civilians until just recently. Civilians were not on their radar as suppressor customers.
When I get the info on what happened I'll post it, I do not mind. On that note I think you are right, I just hope it does not cost an arm and a leg to fix it. As for Surefire CS my experiences with them have been excellent.
It shouldn't, but Surefire is the kind of company that isn't going to show you that bill anyway. I am willing to bet that things are taken care of and you are on your way with a huge +1 to Surefire. That company does customer service the right way. When my M600A tail-cap died as they are known to do, Surefire sent me TWO replacements of updated/fixed design, did not ask for the dead one back, and I had even told them I bought the light second hand.
sandsunsurf
10-09-12, 22:19
I don't think that a surefire can surviving being shot off is a good thing- it's bullshit that a can gets welded on like that. Neither my YHM cans nor my AAC cans have this trouble. Certainly a properly engineered can wouldn't have this problem to begin with. Besides price, this is why SF cans are on my avoid list.
scoutfsu99
10-09-12, 22:22
I'd kick someone in the nuts for telling me SF didn't take care of civilian customers. They have taken excellent care of me.
Just say "LWRCI" three times while looking in a mirror and your man will appear......;)
I don't think that a surefire can surviving being shot off is a good thing- it's bullshit that a can gets welded on like that. Neither my YHM cans nor my AAC cans have this trouble. Certainly a properly engineered can wouldn't have this problem to begin with. Besides price, this is why SF cans are on my avoid list.
YHM and AAC are both on my avoid list. :rolleyes:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/349568_YHM_Phantom_stuck_on_the_Q_D_mount.html
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/374563_M4_2000_supressor_stuck_on_my_rifle_.html
What now? :cool:
I don't think that a surefire can surviving being shot off is a good thing- it's bullshit that a can gets welded on like that. Neither my YHM cans nor my AAC cans have this trouble. Certainly a properly engineered can wouldn't have this problem to begin with. Besides price, this is why SF cans are on my avoid list.
The SOCOM cans were created to mitigate this issue.
How would that work?
Seems to me heating expands metal and makes things tighter not looser. I know I have to wait for my cans to "cool off" sometimes.
And can anyone show me the "shoot it off" part of the manual? I've never even heard of something like that. How the hell do you avoid baffle strikes?
Heating metal expands it. Not "Shrinks"
Its why we heat tie rod ends with a torch to remove them, or any kind of exhaust clamps.....those things suck lol
All dimensions expand, so the ring around the muzzle device expands and tightens the gap.
Exactly why it wouldnt come off lol.
justlikeanyoneelse
10-09-12, 23:23
I don't think that a surefire can surviving being shot off is a good thing- it's bullshit that a can gets welded on like that. Neither my YHM cans nor my AAC cans have this trouble. Certainly a properly engineered can wouldn't have this problem to begin with. Besides price, this is why SF cans are on my avoid list.
1. I'd rather have a suppressor that survives after being shot off than one that does not.
2. Your not firing enough rounds in training.
Kind of off topic but how many inches are required before the muzzle device
justlikeanyoneelse
10-10-12, 00:39
Kind of off topic but how many inches are required before the muzzle device
If I understood correctly, on a 10" 416 I have about 1 cm gap between the mini and gas block.
So thats a no-go on something like my setup
The SOCOM cans were created to mitigate this issue.
They won't.
The problem isn't the "post" with OP, the problem was that the mount probably copper welded to the can. The SOCOM mount even uses a "labyrinth seal" which is a fancy way of saying "Fits tight and has rings engraved in it to create low-pressure/velocity zones to mitigate blow-back around the mount.". This can just as easily copper-weld.
That is the only difference---how the can indexes and the seal aforementioned.
The SOCOM mount/index was designed because the 215 mount was horrible in that junk could and did build up behind the "post", the post could be indexed between tines, the post could go in 1 of 4 places which could lead to improper seating if placed on a tine that it did not come from after firing, etc. because of fouling build-up. The 212 is a great mount and has no issues. The SOCOM mount/interface effectively eliminates the 215's issues, and the 215 style is what the contract was for, so that's the motivation.
Ming_the_Merciless
10-10-12, 11:55
Me personally? I think when the suppressor was shot off the latch was engaged partially and it has sustained damage.
When I get the info on what happened I'll post it, I do not mind. On that note I think you are right, I just hope it does not cost an arm and a leg to fix it. As for Surefire CS my experiences with them have been excellent.
Please do. Keep us updated. I'm also waiting on my first Surefire can, a 7.62 RC to clear ATF, so I'm definitely interested on how CS is handled on the suppressor side of the business. Glad to see Garin taking the initiative and getting you squared away. I also think that could be the case, that the teeth was partially engaged when it was shot off, which would mean it just stripped the teeth on the latching mechanism. The latching assembly, labeled #50 on the assembly diagram below, would be easy to replace, while the threaded section labeled #42 of the part, #34, which bridges the outer tube with the cam/QD locking ring would be more involved if it was welded to the outer tube. If so, hopefully only the set of teeth on the latch is stripped, rather than from the suppressor side.
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd278/WTAForum/US2010_0313743_A1_237_zpsefec8103.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd278/WTAForum/US2010_0313743_A1_337_zps9d1b4531.jpg
http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd278/WTAForum/US2010_0313743_A1_5637_zps3a413e33.jpg
Amazing what you can find on Google, these diagrams are from Surefire's filed patents. Note that the diagrams are from late 2010, and may not represent the latest iteration, i.e. features the indexing notch placed on the suppressor end rather than on the muzzle device, but I believe this shows what the current locking mechanism looks like.
http://www.google.com/patents/US20100313743
everyusernametaken
10-10-12, 13:20
Cool find on those patent drawings. I'm always interested to see the details and inner workings of suppressors. I know what Surefire's baffle stacks look like, but hadn't come across anything showing their mounting mechanism.
justlikeanyoneelse
11-13-12, 23:52
Meant to post earlier but had to make sure suppressor was good to go. Just like many have you predicted Surefire CS was outstanding, they kept me in the loop and my mini feels brand new. Internals were cleaned, locking ring replaced, repainted, and most importantly can was fixed. All in all took about 4 weeks...not bad considering they are cranking out the new SOCOM cans.
Turns out that when the suppressor was shot off, the locking ring was partially engaged. Also got some advice not to overly lubricate the locking ring; I tend to overlube most of my gear so hint hint to those who use Surefire cans.
Big thumbs up for Surefire!
Meant to post earlier but had to make sure suppressor was good to go. Just like many have you predicted Surefire CS was outstanding, they kept me in the loop and my mini feels brand new. Internals were cleaned, locking ring replaced, repainted, and most importantly can was fixed. All in all took about 4 weeks...not bad considering they are cranking out the new SOCOM cans.
Turns out that when the suppressor was shot off, the locking ring was partially engaged. Also got some advice not to overly lubricate the locking ring; I tend to overlube most of my gear so hint hint to those who use Surefire cans.
Big thumbs up for Surefire!
Other than possibly burning off and creating crap as it does so, what could lubricating this cause?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN1nWdbrihs&feature=plcp
You might skip to around 4min mark or more as RH gives a lengthy (yet necessary) explanation of what he is doing.
:)
http://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/2/m200_blank.jpg
Kind of off topic but how many inches are required before the muzzle device
BCM, there MB556 SB might help with your setup?
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=MB556K-SB
Meant to post earlier but had to make sure suppressor was good to go. Just like many have you predicted Surefire CS was outstanding, they kept me in the loop and my mini feels brand new. Internals were cleaned, locking ring replaced, repainted, and most importantly can was fixed. All in all took about 4 weeks...not bad considering they are cranking out the new SOCOM cans.
Turns out that when the suppressor was shot off, the locking ring was partially engaged. Also got some advice not to overly lubricate the locking ring; I tend to overlube most of my gear so hint hint to those who use Surefire cans.
Big thumbs up for Surefire!
Good to hear. Never heard of lubricating any part of the can though :confused:
We add a small amount of dry lube to the thread of the lock ring. It just makes the lock ring caming action smooth since it is metal to metal contact. Adding a drop of oil once in a while is fine but too much and too often can cause to oil to cook into a sludge and cause issues by not letting the lock ring to cam fully.
I have had more than my fair share of stuck suppressors from long shooting sessions and then letting them set for days before taking them off. I have never had to shoot the suppressor off. What I will do on a short barrel is take a small piece of wood and use it as a wedge on the back of the lockring and rail. If I have more barrel I use the edge of a 2x4 or something at the range on the back edge of the lock ring. Just like you do opening a beer bottle useing the edge of a table. Do not for any reason bang on the tube with a hammer thinking you can "tap" the carbon loose. You will end up with a tube that looks like a golf ball. Do not take a plumbers wrench to the tube and think you can twist it off. That index pin won't let you twist it so you will end up having a dented tube and have these really apparent teeth marks as the wrench slips around the tube.
We add a small amount of dry lube to the thread of the lock ring. It just makes the lock ring caming action smooth since it is metal to metal contact. Adding a drop of oil once in a while is fine but too much and too often can cause to oil to cook into a sludge and cause issues by not letting the lock ring to cam fully.
Awesome thanks for the explanation.
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