Any agency collect / examine bullets used in actual shootings

[BBMW]

Are any of the major LE agencies (FBI, etc.) collecting bullets used in actual shootings, and rating their performance, especially as it correlates to the predicted performance derived from gel testing?

It would be interesting to see how various rounds (likely LEO fired) worked in actual shootings.

[DocGKR]

There is great value in the use appropriately gathered and interpreted surgical and/or post-mortem data. The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. The CHP reported similar OIS incident data during a wound ballistic conference I attended at the CHP Academy in the early 1990's; I heard it discussed again at a CHP Officer Involved Shootings Investigation Team meeting in November of 1997 at Vallejo, CA. The information reviewed the differences in ammunition terminal performance such as penetration depth, recovered bullet characteristics, tissue damage, as well as other physiological measurements and physical evidence detailed during forensic analysis. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents. There is a reason why LE agencies such as the FBI, California Highway Patrol, LAPD, RCMP, etc… continue to rely on properly conducted gelatin studies when selecting ammunition.

On the military side, the last decade of OCONUS operations have given us a tremendous amount of combat derived terminal performance information. After spending 4 years and 6 million dollars studying this issue, the Joint Service Wound Ballistics Integrated Product Team reported in the Summer of 2006 that after analyzing all the available evidence, the methodology found to be correct, valid, and concordant with battle field projectile injuries was properly interpreted, calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin testing as evolved from that developed by Dr. Fackler at LAIR in the 1980’s, promoted by the IWBA in the 1990’s, and used for the past two decades by reputable wound ballistic researchers.

[BuckskinJoe]

Dr. Roberts:

It seems I recall the San Diego PD Forensic Laboratory has continued Mr. Wolberg's work.

If so, do you know the current--or recent--sample size and r-squared?

[481]

There is great value in the use appropriately gathered and interpreted surgical and/or post-mortem data. The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin.

Dr. Roberts,

Is there anyway or anywhere that those data may be viewed by those interested in seeing it?


PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZE :smile:

[Wayne Dobbs]

The SDPD results were published in one of the IWBA Journal issues if I recall correctly.

[Odd Job]

I suspect us lowly civilians will never have access to the full range of data collected in those officer-involved-shootings.
I have a similar database (which coincidentally involves 150 patients) except my cases don't have scene data because they were all admitted to the hospital alive.
I have had that database for 10 years (almost to the day) and I don't feel it appropriate to make it available to anybody. There are only two exceptions: the ethics committee who approved the research protocol, and the named supervisors (one trauma surgeon and one chief radiographer, now retired). And they haven't had reason to see it. I have presented cases and provided draft manuscripts for review, but nobody ever got the whole lot, only redacted parts.
I think it would be even more difficult for anyone not in the right branch of LE to get hold of that Wolberg database.
And yes, I would love to get my hands on it :meeting:

[481]

The SDPD results were published in one of the IWBA Journal issues if I recall correctly.

It was in the Winter 1991 issue and only had 28 data. I want more. :D

[tpd223]

There is often no command guidance to do these chores.

I study our local OISs and other available shootings,

[BBMW]

This was the answer I was looking for (essentially "yes")

Thank you.


There is great value in the use appropriately gathered and interpreted surgical and/or post-mortem data. The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. The CHP reported similar OIS incident data during a wound ballistic conference I attended at the CHP Academy in the early 1990's; I heard it discussed again at a CHP Officer Involved Shootings Investigation Team meeting in November of 1997 at Vallejo, CA. The information reviewed the differences in ammunition terminal performance such as penetration depth, recovered bullet characteristics, tissue damage, as well as other physiological measurements and physical evidence detailed during forensic analysis. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of projectiles in actual shooting incidents. There is a reason why LE agencies such as the FBI, California Highway Patrol, LAPD, RCMP, etc… continue to rely on properly conducted gelatin studies when selecting ammunition.

On the military side, the last decade of OCONUS operations have given us a tremendous amount of combat derived terminal performance information. After spending 4 years and 6 million dollars studying this issue, the Joint Service Wound Ballistics Integrated Product Team reported in the Summer of 2006 that after analyzing all the available evidence, the methodology found to be correct, valid, and concordant with battle field projectile injuries was properly interpreted, calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin testing as evolved from that developed by Dr. Fackler at LAIR in the 1980’s, promoted by the IWBA in the 1990’s, and used for the past two decades by reputable wound ballistic researchers.