View Full Version : Gabe Suarez.....What did he just type?
sinlessorrow
09-22-12, 00:32
So I was not sure where I should post this, so I figure here is perfect. I came across this recent post from Gabe Suarez that was so full of bad information my head almost exploded....what do yall think.
http://www.warriortalknews.com/2012/09/if-it-aint-broke-dont-fix-it-a-discussion-of-the-piston-ar.html
The first biggest thing that blew my mind was this comment from him.
"1). Avoids the fouling and carbon build up common in DI guns. Fouling is the main cause of the AR's unreliable rep. Fix that and you have a new animal altogether. "
Fouling is the main cause of issues with the AR? When did that happen, read it and see what I'm talking about. It's interesting to see someone like him saying things like that.
I also like this,
5). Finally, the piston gun keeps the blowback out of your face and nose and lungs. We hear all manner of dram from "second hand smoke" yet we hear nothing about the lung-full of gas the DI shooter gets everytime he touches off a shot. I wonder if the Piston Guns are..."healthier".
Only time I have ever been blasted in the face with gas is shooting suppressed and they make CH to fix that.
At least a few weeks back he, or whomever is typing the email blasts, as much as admitted that there would but much open whoring of Sig rifles in upcoming releases - and sure enough, it has materialized. I'm curious if the 7.62 Sig gun has potential (better handguard, ship it with some smarter aftermarket goodies), but that's about it.
Some of the other articles are decent jumping off points for mindset, and training spectrum implementation from dry fire, to FoF, to rimfire, but that's really the only ones of those I bother to read.
Moose-Knuckle
09-22-12, 01:29
Well you know what they say about opinions . . .
Give some people enough money and free guns and they will write articles like:
The 1911, the NEW combat handgun for the 21rst Century
Century Arms, The MOST Gun for the Dollar
.22 Magnum, CCWs Secret Weapon
DPMS, Quality Enough
Long gone are the days when training and instruction was simply training and instruction. Now it's big business and just like with any business there is a product or a philosophy to be sold.
This isn't to say there are not reputable teachers who offer viable and useful training, but just because the class is being run by Famous Dave doesn't mean you should accept everything as gospel.
Keep in mind that as with most things:
1. One size does not fit all, what works for me may not work for you.
2. There is often, and usually is, more than one correct answer. There is more than one path to the top of the mountain, the one you choose should be best for your needs.
3. Stand by for the commercials. Just because he's eating the cereal doesn't mean he actually thinks it tastes good.
I received the "email blast" from them and read the BS he wrote. I think he should stick something he has some knowledge of; the AR platform not being one of them.
When I pointed out some the short comings of the PTR 91 rifle on his website, my post was deleted and my account was closed. I wasn't banned officially but I couldn't log in anymore.
SWATcop556
09-22-12, 04:24
I received the "email blast" from them and read the BS he wrote. I think he should stick something he has some knowledge of; the AR platform not being one of them.
Yep like his glowing career in LE. :blink:
Alaskapopo
09-22-12, 05:25
.22 Magnum, CCWs Secret Weapon
good.
Carefull a popular dealer on this site is pushing 22 mag revolvers as defensive weapons. A total joke I agree.
Pat
lethal dose
09-22-12, 06:33
Gabe himself doesn't have a whole lot of AR knowledge. He does, however, have a few very good AR instructors. I like Gabe- he's a very nice dude. I know a lot of people question things from his past to his training techniques... I get that, but try to focus on the positive. He has a lot to teach and conveys his knowledge very well. I don't agree with everything he teaches, but look at it as another notch on the training belt and insight from another point of view. His comments about ARs, I obviously do not agree with. That's typical of someone who isn't an "AR" person. They listen to gun shop banter.
Littlelebowski
09-22-12, 06:48
I honestly admire his marketing ability. I don't agree with some of what he teaches but I'm sure we'd get along in person.
I dont agree with a lot that he says, however the comments about carbon build up being an issue aren't really offbase. Many of the AR's I see which are malfunctioning have BCG's caked in carbon. Now the reason for this is because they are being run dry which allows carbon to build up. So he was close in his assessment, however the problem is lack of lube which is operator error rather than the DI system.
sinlessorrow
09-22-12, 07:20
I would say the biggest issue of any weapon will be worn out mags and lack of lubrication.
His whole post just sounds ignorant and like a HK add. He even uses the whole "HK416 killed OBL so it must be the best". Maybe he does have knowledge in some things but AR's are not where that knowledge lies. His follower comments are not much better either.
Gabe's advocation of Piston ARs is strangely cooincidental with him selling Sig 516s.
Gabe tries to employ a synergy of what he advocates, what he teaches, and what his company sells.
Gabe seems to find an area of firearms that he feels is a potential emerging growth area and tries to exploit it, often using simulytaneous hyperbole and put downs of other weapons or people who use or favor other weapons in order to foster a kinship and build cohesion among his target market.
First it was AKs in the early to mid 2000s when you could buy an entry level Romdecent Romanian for about $300-$400. He could get someone to buy a rifle for $300-$400, 1000 rounds for $200 and that person would be ready to take Gabe's AK class, which he offered at a time when few others were offering AK specific classes.
Then the price of entry level AKs went up and the supply got tighter and Gabe started stocking Arsenals.
Then Gabe starts selling optics and scope mounts for the AK and starts including long range AK shooting in his classes to encourage people to buy these items. Previously, when he was advocating the plain AK with standard sights, he had asserted that most rifle encounters take place inside of 100 yards, many inside of 25 yards.
Suddenly the AKs that Gabe formerly favored were for paupers. Next Gabe starts sellling a line of custom AKs with quad rails that sell for $1300-$1500 and nothing else is good enough. Didn't Gabe write about being a mnimalist on the AK a few years ago? But now he is selling railed AKs that are more expensive than ARs. Wasn't a major point of the AK to have a system more affordable than the AR?
(edited to add) His $1300-$1500 AKs were not met with overwhelming demand.
When he sees there isn't as much money in AKs he switches to American made Sigs and Anerican made HK clones that have a bad reputation compared to regular AKs. But how do you mount optics on these HK clones? And he refers to the AK crowd, who he was formerly courting and encouraging as "the hills have eyes crowd."
And so it goes . . .
I would say the biggest issue of any weapon will be worn out mags and lack of lubrication.
His whole post just sounds ignorant and like a HK add. He even uses the whole "HK416 killed OBL so it must be the best". Maybe he does have knowledge in some things but AR's are not where that knowledge lies. His follower comments are not much better either.
The problem is Gabe is hyping gas pistons in general. All Piston ARs are not equal and some are quite crappy. I am not familiar enough with the Sig 516 to comment, but if Sig's recent crappy QC and engineering is any indication, I am not expecting very much.
As far as HK goes : https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1330043&postcount=171
sinlessorrow
09-22-12, 11:55
Thanks for the info Ed, as to the HK comment I was just saying that his reasoning was flawed. From what I understand they aslo had MP7's so that must make them the best also. The HK is a great gun? But because it killed someone does not make it the best. You see what I'm saying?
RogerinTPA
09-22-12, 14:34
I can understand a marketing strategy, however, I cannot understand the shear ignorance of his comments, much less believing & hyping that tripe with such conviction. There are legions of folks who hang on his every word, despite his questionable background and reputation. For a shooting professional/trainer who is not well versed in the many common fire arms currently being used, I'd consider one a severe detriment to whom he teaches.
The bias in his equipment reviews is so over the top. His writing on the TSD variation of the Lancer mag would make you think that SI had developed the thing, rather that merely added a logo. Funny too, is the list of manufacturers that have fallen out of favor at SI.
I can understand a marketing strategy, however, I cannot understand the shear ignorance of his comments, much less believing & hyping that tripe with such conviction.
You need hype and hyperbole to sell some things to some people, even if your statements are inaccurate and over the top. You need those inaccurate and over the top claims and hype and chestbeating to interest certain people. Even if you allienate more knowledgeable & experienced people, you make more money with the people who buy your hype.
Even if you loose credibility with some people you make more money with other people.
The other thing people like Gabe like to do is piss people off, and stir up crap to attract more attention and high-fives from his followers.
I am not saying that I agree with this or even like Gabe, but this is what he does.
And he loves it when he can get people talking about him and his company at other forums.
Mea culpa, I guess.
Thanks for the info Ed, as to the HK comment I was just saying that his reasoning was flawed. From what I understand they aslo had MP7's so that must make them the best also. The HK is a great gun? But because it killed someone does not make it the best. You see what I'm saying?
Everything with you is about griping over the HK416. Be it here, on HKforurms, or on lightfighter under a different handle. Get over it.
No one is saying that the MP7 is best because the SEALs use it. That is a weak strawman argument on your part.
Here is what Larry Vickers, someone who might know something, recently wrote about the HK416 since you obviously did not bother to follow the link:
Just a little tidbit gents for the 416 haters out there- I just got some info that one specialized end user currently using 416's tested it against several ( read that as most) current DI and piston guns to find a potential replacement and the result of the test was.....
The HK416 will stay in place as the issue assault rifle
None of the other guns came close to it performance wise from what I was told- you may not like HK but based on what they found during their test no one makes a better gun as of right now
That's all I can say - spin it however you want but this organization can and will buy whatever they want to get the job done; if there was something better they would be using it or in the process of buying it
RogerinTPA
09-22-12, 18:34
You need hype and hyperbole to sell some things to some people, even if your statements are inaccurate and over the top. You need those inaccurate and over the top claims and hype and chestbeating to interest certain people. Even if you allienate more knowledgeable & experienced people, you make more money with the people who buy your hype.
Even if you loose credibility with some people you make more money with other people.
The other thing people like Gabe like to do is piss people off, and stir up crap to attract more attention and high-fives from his followers.
I am not saying that I agree with this or even like Gabe, but this is what he does.
And he loves it when he can get people talking about him and his company at other forums.
Mea culpa, I guess.
Agreed. Playing to the Bubba crowd, (lowest common denominator in the firearms market) has been going on for decades. Bushmaster, Oly, DPMS, Stag, etc... to name a few. Even in gun forums. It's just pitiful to see companies and professional individuals not stepping up there game and bringing a better product to the table.
You need hype and hyperbole to sell some things to some people, even if your statements are inaccurate and over the top. You need those inaccurate and over the top claims and hype and chestbeating to interest certain people. Even if you allienate more knowledgeable & experienced people, you make more money with the people who buy your hype.
Even if you loose credibility with some people you make more money with other people.
The other thing people like Gabe like to do is piss people off, and stir up crap to attract more attention and high-fives from his followers.
I am not saying that I agree with this or even like Gabe, but this is what he does.
And he loves it when he can get people talking about him and his company at other forums.
Mea culpa, I guess.
Yeah, pretty much.
Maybe I can get some kind of exclusive deal with PTR and start talking about roller locks as the ULTIMATE DEFENSIVE TOOL which needs neither piston or DI for function.
I'm thinking the website can be called UDT.com (to imply some special ops association) and I can conduct myself on the internet as THE ULTIMATE DEFENSIVE TOOL.
:D
sinlessorrow
09-22-12, 18:53
Ed did you even read what gabe wrote? Let me show you.
"One cannot have a discussion of the Piston M4 without the HK416 dropping in. I am not certain if it was first, but it certainly was the most marketed, and of course...it is a top choice among US Special Ops. Using an HK416 to kill Bin Ladin was a telling rebuttal to "piston dtractors". These guys...the Special Ops guys tasked with the mission could have anything they want as money is no object. Yet the gun they used, and use, is not a Direct Impingement Rifle"
I am trying to keep this on topic, and Gabe used thefact that the HK416 killed OBL to tote how pistons are better than DI, what he neglects is that not all pistons are equal and only 1 or 2 should ever be considerdd. Not to mention every other innacuracy in the post of his.
Gabe also mentions having to rebuild the M4 every few thousand rounds, that is also incredibly false.
Yeah, pretty much.
Maybe I can get some kind of exclusive deal with PTR and start talking about roller locks as the ULTIMATE DEFENSIVE TOOL which needs neither piston or DI for function.
I'm thinking the website can be called UDT.com (to imply some special ops association) and I can conduct myself on the internet as THE ULTIMATE DEFENSIVE TOOL.
:D
You can hire me to go around behind you hollering "TIMMY!" at the right moment. :p
Sinlessorrow,
Maybe I wasn't specific enough, but my post prior to the one in which I responded to you, I commented on Gabe's credibility, or the lack thereof. I thought that would speak for itself regarding what I think of much of what he says.
I don't agree with most of what he said about ARs, nor do I think his descriptions are accurate-especially his claims about their unreliability or them having to be rebuilt every few thousand rounds.
The problem ARs that I have witnessed in classes are probably the same types that Gabe has seen--subpar brands and frankenguns that don't run reliably, or problems caused by bad ammo, bad magazines, or underlubrication. Quality instructors recognize this and point it out to students; they may even have a quality AR to loan them for class. Over the years I have seen a huge improvement in function of ARs in classes because there is more knowledge out there and more people who do their homework beforehand and buy quality equipment.
I am trying to keep this on topic, and Gabe used thefact that the HK416 killed OBL to tote how pistons are better than DI, what he neglects is that not all pistons are equal and only 1 or 2 should ever be considerdd. Not to mention every other innacuracy in the post of his.
As I previously wrote, all Piston ARs are not equal and some are quite crappy. I am not familiar enough with the Sig 516 to comment, but if Sig's recent crappy QC and engineering is any indication, I am not expecting much, certainly not something that can hold its own with a Colt 6920.
When did you first become aware of Gabe Suarez, Sinlessorrow? This is nothing new for him.
He likes to make contraversial proclaimations that get people fired up and talking about him on other messageboards because it is viral marketing. He also likes to do a lot of "this vs. that" posts, with the 'this' being something that he is selling or offering.
According to him we are all probably members of the "M4 Mafia." He's always talking about some mafia or another, whether it's the 'Gunschool' Mafia that doesn't want you to know the secrets that Gabe is willing to teach you, or "piston dtractors" which he would probably categorize you as.
Anyway, just call me Fredo.
I honestly admire his marketing ability.
Kinda like the advertisements for the tough, smart lawyer who hammers insurance companies.
sinlessorrow
09-22-12, 20:43
Sinlessorrow,
Maybe I wasn't specific enough, but my post prior to the one in which I responded to you, I commented on Gabe's credibility, or the lack thereof. I thought that would speak for itself regarding what I think of much of what he says.
I don't agree with most of what he said about ARs, nor do I think his descriptions are accurate-especially his claims about their unreliability or them having to be rebuilt every few thousand rounds.
The problem ARs that I have witnessed in classes are probably the same types that Gabe has seen--subpar brands and frankenguns that don't run reliably, or problems caused by bad ammo, bad magazines, or underlubrication. Quality instructors recognize this and point it out to students; they may even have a quality AR to loan them for class. Over the years I have seen a huge improvement in function of ARs in classes because there is more knowledge out there and more people who do their homework beforehand and buy quality equipment.
As I previously wrote, all Piston ARs are not equal and some are quite crappy. I am not familiar enough with the Sig 516 to comment, but if Sig's recent crappy QC and engineering is any indication, I am not expecting much, certainly not something that can hold its own with a Colt 6920.
When did you first become aware of Gabe Suarez, Sinlessorrow? This is nothing new for him.
He likes to make contraversial proclaimations that get people fired up and talking about him on other messageboards because it is viral marketing. He also likes to do a lot of "this vs. that" posts, with the 'this' being something that he is selling or offering.
According to him we are all probably members of the "M4 Mafia." He's always talking about some mafia or another, whether it's the 'Gunschool' Mafia that doesn't want you to know the secrets that Gabe is willing to teach you, or "piston dtractors" which he would probably categorize you as.
Anyway, just call me Fredo.
This is actually the first I have really cared to read anything of his, all I really knew was that he was a well known and well followed AK instructor, though it appears it was a while ago.
Doc Safari
09-23-12, 10:59
This is all I ever need or want to know about Gabe Suarez:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81135
Particularly noteworthy is post #8.
I'm not saying people can't change, but having worked in law enforcement it doesn't happen too often, and I would treat such people with distant fingers to say the least.
Wow.. Gabe Suarez's character being brought into question? Let me put on my surprised face.
Guys, don't correct him. I can then direct a few local gunships to glean his followers of hard earned cash as the demand for MR556A1s will far outstrip supply and I'd earn a small finder's fee.
Really, there is little need to "fight" with Gabe and his followers - much less ourselves. There are people here who despise pistons and others who adore them and many in between.
"I'm good with that".
Guys, don't correct him. I can then direct a few local gunships to glean his followers of hard earned cash as the demand for MR556A1s will far outstrip supply and I'd earn a small finder's fee.
Really, there is little need to "fight" with Gabe and his followers - much less ourselves. There are people here who despise pistons and others who adore them and many in between.
"I'm good with that".
Agree with piston systems or not... at least they're not insufferable pricks.
sandsunsurf
09-29-12, 12:31
A year or two ago I got one of the Gabe Suarez newsletters where he was calling into question the idea of having your finger off the trigger. He was saying it was dangerous, and that the time it took to move your finger from the trigger guard to the trigger could cost you your life. He further noted that many times in his career he had his finger on the trigger before he had decided to shoot, then didn't shoot. I figured it was just to draw attention and controversy, but at the same time I knew I'd never really listen to much he had to say...
Animal_Mother556
09-29-12, 19:14
"3). In our in house testing, I have found the piston guns to cycle faster than the DI guns. Not a conclusive, split-time examining test, just a feel. On the DI guns you can feel the action working between shots. On a piston gun, it is press trigger, shot out. Perhaps we need to dwell in this area a bit more"
They...feel faster?
"On a piston gun, it is press trigger, shot out." -- Wh.....What?
Heavy Metal
09-29-12, 19:29
A year or two ago I got one of the Gabe Suarez newsletters where he was calling into question the idea of having your finger off the trigger. He was saying it was dangerous, and that the time it took to move your finger from the trigger guard to the trigger could cost you your life. He further noted that many times in his career he had his finger on the trigger before he had decided to shoot, then didn't shoot. I figured it was just to draw attention and controversy, but at the same time I knew I'd never really listen to much he had to say...
I think Gabe Suarez and those who subscribe to his school of thought can be summed up as being contrarians simply for its own sake and to distinguish itself from the accepted body of thought.
That said, there is a reason the norm is the norm. It is true that the art of Gunfighting has advanced tremendously since 2000 but I also suspect short of a major technological advancement to arms/ammo and body armor, things are likely to change incrementally and not radically for the forseeable future. The optimal has pretty much been arrived at, we are not going back to the Weaver stance and Chicken Wing any time soon.
Somebody telling us that 2+2 is 5 should be looked at with skepticism.
Magic_Salad0892
09-29-12, 20:45
This is all I ever need or want to know about Gabe Suarez:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81135
Particularly noteworthy is post #8.
I'm not saying people can't change, but having worked in law enforcement it doesn't happen too often, and I would treat such people with distant fingers to say the least.
Wow. I just read Templar's post and watched that video...
I didn't know anything about Mr. Suarez, until right now. But, **** that guy.
I've done shady things, even been in jail, and had to have my record cleared up, but I've never been like "Oh shit, fraud charges... better go shoot some cops!"
Dudes like that make me feel very good about myself, and my actions.
Seriously... that guy is walking trash. Hearing ''Voice of God'' = Possibly psychotic.
Heavy Metal said very well. The Insurgent Mentality is his marketing ploy, very contrary.
Business_Casual
09-29-12, 21:23
Yeah, there's a lot of tactical lever gun in those dudes.
bc
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