View Full Version : First precision trigger: RRA NM, Gieselle SSA, LMT 2-Stage, or..?
Will_Power
09-24-12, 02:21
All,
I'm in the middle of planning out my build and gathering parts for my first precision rifle. Could use your practical thoughts and experience with triggers.
Budget is something that I'm working with at the moment, so the high-end -- and medium-end -- triggers aren't workable at the very start.
The RRA 2-Stage National Match, as tweaked by ADCO, (http://www.adcofirearms.com/itemdetails_.cfm?inventorynumber=1314) is attractive based on price alone, but is it a piece of junk?
On the other hand, at this price point / product level, do the Gieselle SSA or the LMT 2-Stage (if I can find it in stock) justify the added costs? Or do their benefits only shine when you get into their $300 products range?
I'm ignorant as can be here, guys, but am doing my due diligence and reading Would appreciate your feedback.
polymorpheous
09-24-12, 02:47
The RRA trigger groups are prone to problems.
Not many members here will recommend them.
The Geiselle trigger groups, on the other hand, are highly recommended.
Good luck with your build.
I still use a RRA 2-stage on both of my rifles. It's very crisp. It works as advertised.
But for how long? Most issues people seem to have with them is after 3k - 5k rounds, they get mushy and sloppy. I've even read a story where a guy had the hammer snap in half on him.
So, I guess I'm saying, I'm cautiously optimistic about mine. I like them, but I don't have 5k+ through either rifle yet. (I have pretty close to 3k through one, no issues)
Hi Will,
Since your post is in a precision orientated forum as opposed to AR general discussion, I'll assume your not just looking for a modest improvement in feel from say a standard crappy mil spec type single stage trigger. Rather your buying this trigger to actually see real world gains in accuracy/precision. If this is true, and you want to make absolute certain that when you do spend your money on this future trigger it will last your entire lifetime....your options are limited to Geissele's uber reliable, and highly refined 2stage offerings. Specifically the following triggers:
I'm ranking my opinion in order from best to less best...
1. SD-E $220
.
.
.
.
2. SSA-E $220
3. SD-C $200
4. SSA $170
5. GSSA or formally known as the S2S $125
(give or take $10 on the listed prices above)
Besides all the GA trigger models, I've owned and used 3 KAC 2stage triggers, 2 LMT 2stage triggers, ALG Defense's ACT, and then various stock triggers that have come with rifles I've bought.
My list only includes triggers that have proven themselves to be truly reliable in hard use environments, and with high round counts on them. Please note however that older KAC triggers have had significant problems, many of which surfaced in combat conditions in SR-25 rifles. Over the last cpl. of years they seem to have had the problems worked out of them, and have a really nice feeling pull that to my naked touch feels almost exactly like SSAs/GSSAs do.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00215-1.jpg
LMT 2stage triggers really don't allow you to have that pinpoint control over breaking a shot, and overall it's just not a refined unit like a true precision trigger should be.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03304-1_zpsa3495971.jpg
So that brings us back to the Geissele triggers....
Once you buy one, it's no bullsh*t for life. These triggers don't break in, and will maintain their initial trigger pull feel for their lifetime's. In the unlikely event one does goes bad or has a flaw, their backed by imho unbeatable CS.
The money you spend will actually yield dramatic results whether by the narcotic like effect you feel every time you pull it, or by the actual measured gains in accuracy/precision. So many things you buy to add on an AR these days are mind pondering to say the least....most of them never yield benefits that can be easily felt or measured. With a SD-E or SSA-E trigger, you'll know instantly where your $220 went. An awesome feeling trigger is the gift that keeps on giving in my book.
I completely understand a budget, and sometimes things just aren't feasible. With that said, I'd strongly recommend saving for a bit longer if that is what it takes in order to buy either the SD-E, or SSA-E trigger.
They're flat out precision triggers, have amazing feeling pulls, and are boringly predictable in their staging, and second stage wall/break. Those two are so far above the other options in my eyes that it's really hard for me to recommend anything else.
http://i52.tinypic.com/25z5phu.jpg
All,
I'm in the middle of planning out my build and gathering parts for my first precision rifle. Could use your practical thoughts and experience with triggers.
Budget is something that I'm working with at the moment, so the high-end -- and medium-end -- triggers aren't workable at the very start.
The RRA 2-Stage National Match, as tweaked by ADCO, (http://www.adcofirearms.com/itemdetails_.cfm?inventorynumber=1314) is attractive based on price alone, but is it a piece of junk?
On the other hand, at this price point / product level, do the Gieselle SSA or the LMT 2-Stage (if I can find it in stock) justify the added costs? Or do their benefits only shine when you get into their $300 products range?
I'm ignorant as can be here, guys, but am doing my due diligence and reading Would appreciate your feedback.
The VERY BEST 2 stage trigger for the money is this one: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=G2S
The down side to the G2S is that it is an OEM FCG (only). We do offer them in our LPK's and in AR builds so you can get one.
C4
NavyDavy55
09-24-12, 09:28
I have two Gieselle SSA trigger and love thier smoothness. Great for making accurate shots.
I think that good "budget" 2-stage trigger is CMMG Gen2 (non adjustable) trigger. At least works quite nice for me. Maybe I just got good unit, or those trigger are just overlooked.
Having been able to A-B the RRA and Geissle 2 stage triggers, I will say that I can not feel a huge difference between the 2 of them. Some people say there have been issues with the RRA unit and you don't really hear much about Geissle triggers going down.
I have about 1000 rounds through my RRA trigger and it still feels great. The gun that the RRA group is in us currently on gunbroker so I will not be able to comment on their reliability in the long term but the trigger worked well for me in the short time I had it.
My new rifle has the QMS trigger by ALG Defense. I may put another RRA group in it later but the ALG group feels pretty nice so I may just leave it.
The VERY BEST 2 stage trigger for the money is this one: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=G2S
The down side to the G2S is that it is an OEM FCG (only). We do offer them in our LPK's and in AR builds so you can get one.
C4
Why are they so much more inexpensive?
Why are they so much more inexpensive?
Materials used, but mostly because of how the hammer locks onto the hammer pin.
C4
Materials used, but mostly because of how the hammer locks onto the hammer pin.
C4
That circular wire thing?
That circular wire thing?
Yes, that is the retention piece.
C4
Yes, that is the retention piece.
C4
What does a "standard" Geiselle trigger use that's more expensive?
What does a "standard" Geiselle trigger use that's more expensive?
Different materials, but mainly the internal setup inside of the hammer (in how it locks onto the hammer pin).
C4
fallenromeo
09-24-12, 14:52
I started with a mil-spec single stage, then got an RRA 2 stage trigger. It lasted me about 70 rounds before I pulled it out and put the GI trigger back in and sold the RRA on craigslist. That is an abortion of a trigger when compared with the Geissele SSA and others. I then bought a Geissele and now I will never own another trigger. I even bought another SSA just to put in my .22 last week because I love it so much.
Listen to Trident, Geissele can't be beat in this category. They are truly top notch.
I tried a RRA 2-stage in a precision rifle briefly, then put in a SSA-E and put the RRA in a carbine, where it should do OK for a while.
The RRA isn't a horrible trigger, but you get what you pay for. If you run one, plan on it going down at some point--which you don't have to worry about with a Geissele. I run Geissele triggers in both my precision ARs now. Inicdentally, a lot of the KAC triggers the Army got (in the Mk12) were replaced with Geisseles eventually, some sooner rather than later.
clmarshall21
09-24-12, 17:48
I can only support what most have been saying already.
Friends of mine run the RRA NM 2 stage and they are very crisp, consistent, and light triggers. But after I read a few issues about them I decided my money was better spent on the SSA-E. As said earlier, there is no substitute for Geissele when it comes to overall quality.
My only regret is not going with the SD-E instead. I got a chance to check one of these out recently and it was amazing.
Another thing to note (and perhaps someone else has more input on this topic) but Geissele triggers will always have full strength hammer springs. Some other manufacturers will decrease the hammer spring weight to aide in lightening the overall trigger feel (this will produce a "light" primer strike). Research can be found that shows that light primer strikes have an adverse effect on accuracy. I do not know if lightening the hammer spring weight is something that RRA does or not.
ETA: The SSA-E feels no different to my inexperienced trigger finger than the RRA but I would not want the question in my head of "when might this thing break?". My purchase was made with confidence and I know I made the right choice going with the Geissele.
I used to have two of the RRA NM triggers a few years ago. They gave me no problems and I got excellent accuracy from them. However, I have heard of problems with them (especially after higher round counts, which mine did not have).
I switched to Geissele triggers and have never looked back. They have the advantage of extremely reliability, and still enable precision shooting. I have two of the SSA-E triggers, and plan to eventually try the G2s.
For me the Geissele cost more, but are well worth it.
Will_Power
09-24-12, 21:57
Thanks for the replies here, fellas.
Looks like I ought to just pony up the extra eighty bucks and go to the Gieselle SSA when the time comes.
Now, in a wanton display of my ignorance, tell me this.
Does the Gieselle come with all the bits and pieces I need insomuch as I'd be able to just pick up one of those Palmetto LPKs without a fire control group (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/parts-kits/psa-classic-lpk-w-o-fire-control-group.html) and be good to go? Or would I end up missing a selector between the PSA LPK and the Gieselle trigger?
I've decided on the LaRue APEG grip and procured an almost-new one from TOS, so I don't need the grip, but for the price, I figure that's my best bet?
If I recall the Geiselle comes with everything. They are worth the $$. I have an SD3G and will be picking up an SDC for my current build. I personally really like the flat triggers
Will_Power
11-03-12, 18:45
If I recall the Geiselle comes with everything.
Everything, as in a complete lower parts kit? Interesting, if so. Need to go look that up.
I've got my Surplus Arms lower and LaRue APEG grip in hand.
Low-pro gas block, gas tube, and Rainer Arms XD flash hider purchased today.
BCM 18" SS 410 SPR barrel and MI T-15 freefloat rail arriving this week from BCM. A2 stock kit shipping hopefully this week from Rock River.
Now, all that's left to do is get to the bottom of my tigger and bipod problems while I wait for LAR to restock their OPS-4 upper and send one out to me in a month.
I think that good "budget" 2-stage trigger is CMMG Gen2 (non adjustable) trigger. At least works quite nice for me. Maybe I just got good unit, or those trigger are just overlooked.
Same here - once I got it tuned and loctited, my highest compliment I can pay to that trigger is that it feels better than the two KAC NM's I have, and almost as good as any of my 5 GSSA's. I consider that high praise for such a cheap trigger - only concern is the brass on there and longevity if it gets ran hard. No such worry on the Geissele.
OP - you should loathe everybody who advised you to buy Geissele. It's immensely difficult to just buy one. Especially when LPK's like the G&R bring the price for an entire LPK in line with all sorts of inferiour options.
Will_Power
11-05-12, 12:22
you should loathe everybody who advised you to buy Geissele. It's immensely difficult to just buy one. Especially when LPK's like the G&R bring the price for an entire LPK in line with all sorts of inferiour options.
Fortunately, I don't even have one complete AR yet, so that takes the edge off, haha.
Would you explain what you mean about the G&R lower parts kits?
I personally had a RRA NM trigger crap out on me in less than 1k rounds. First it became mushy and lost its first stage and then it began double firing on me. I've since gone with a Geiselle SD-E and I can easily say this trigger is worlds apart from the RRA.
Fortunately, I don't even have one complete AR yet, so that takes the edge off, haha.
Would you explain what you mean about the G&R lower parts kits?
The lower parts kit Grant sells are cheaper, since they omit the parts that you would replace with the GSSA or G2S anyway (further savings by omitting the trigger guard and going with an MOE unit or lower that has an integral TG), but still top notch stuff (mostly LMT, DD, CMT is my guess) for lowers.
They're not in stock that often, but they're worth the wait. All of mine have been. For the list price of an RRA NM trigger and RRA LPK (I've had problems with both) you can have the G&R LPK with G2S trigger, and almost enough money for an H2 buffer on the side.
Will_Power
11-05-12, 14:38
The lower parts kit Grant sells are cheaper, since they omit the parts that you would replace with the GSSA or G2S anyway (further savings by omitting the trigger guard and going with an MOE unit or lower that has an integral TG), but still top notch stuff (mostly LMT, DD, CMT is my guess) for lowers.
They're not in stock that often, but they're worth the wait. All of mine have been. For the list price of an RRA NM trigger and RRA LPK (I've had problems with both) you can have the G&R LPK with G2S trigger, and almost enough money for an H2 buffer on the side.
I'm afraid I'm unwilling at this point to hold off on finishing the build on a LPK. Do you have any other trigger-less recomendations?
clmarshall21
11-05-12, 15:31
I'm afraid I'm unwilling at this point to hold off on finishing the build on a LPK. Do you have any other trigger-less recomendations?
I know that KNSPrecisioninc.com and LWRCi.com sell lower parts a'la'carte so you could get all of the pieces you need and none you don't. AresArmor.com used to but I cannot find the a'la'carte parts on their website anymore.
I don't have any input on the quality of the parts I mentioned above... Just giving you some options to look into. I use the G&R kit in my rifle.
Will_Power
11-06-12, 00:45
Now that you guys have talked me into the Giessele, I'm hitting a wall with my budget and need to save a couple bucks (that, and the G&R LPKs are out of stock till the end of the month).
I have three options that seem to be in stock right now:
DPMS (http://www.riflegear.com/p-1153-dpms-lower-parts-kit-ar15-without-trigger-group.aspx)
CMMG (http://vtsupply.com/cmmg-lower-parts-kit-no-fire-control-group-fcg-builder-special.htm)
JP Enterprises (http://www.joeboboutfitters.com/JP_Lower_Receiver_Parts_Kit_without_Trigger_Parts_p/jp-lpk-ltg.htm)
From what I've read, it seems DPMS has a pretty abysmal reputation, at least in the 5.56 realm, and CMMG is hit and miss. Can't find too much about JP Enterprises, however.
Any of these clearly the better choice?
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/psa-moe-lpk-w-o-fire-control-group-2775.html
With Magpul grip and trigger guard.
Price still seems valid.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ar-15-05/lower-parts/psa-moe-lpk-w-o-fire-control-group-2775.html
With Magpul grip and trigger guard.
Price still seems valid.
+1 for PSA. I'd go with their LPK over the ones you have listed, especially at the current price.
The DPMS and CMMG are identical as far as I can tell, and the one of each I have also both have added 'features', like being able to engage the safety with the hammer forward, and such. PSA isn't bad, DD if you can find them would be ideal, even a straight CMT one will do.
lifebreath
11-16-12, 21:06
Geissele Hi-Speed National Match (http://geissele.com/hi-speed-2.aspx).
I don't really consider the SSA-E and related variants true "precision" triggers. They are more like semi-precision/combat triggers. The Geissele Hi-Speed National Match rocks. Depending on your application and how well controlled you are with your trigger finger, you can get the Service Rifle, DMR or the Match version. I like the Match version with a very light second stage and virtually all of the over-travel adjusted out. That trigger ROCKS for precision shooting.
Geissele Hi-Speed National Match (http://geissele.com/hi-speed-2.aspx).
I don't really consider the SSA-E and related variants true "precision" triggers. They are more like semi-precision/combat triggers. The Geissele Hi-Speed National Match rocks. Depending on your application and how well controlled you are with your trigger finger, you can get the Service Rifle, DMR or the Match version. I like the Match version with a very light second stage and virtually all of the over-travel adjusted out. That trigger ROCKS for precision shooting.
Anything short of hand loads, the SSA-E or even the SSA is more than enough to keep up. Then again, I'm usually the limitation even with those triggers doing their best to get me out of the equation.
lifebreath
11-16-12, 22:27
Anything short of hand loads, the SSA-E or even the SSA is more than enough to keep up. Then again, I'm usually the limitation even with those triggers doing their best to get me out of the equation.
Not saying it can't work, just that you have to concentrate more on having very good control. Last carbine class I did, we were shooting 5-round strings prone at 25 yards, just resting on the mag. It was one of those times when everything felt right and my groups were really tight. Last string of five were literally all in one hole the size of one shot. This was with a 14.5" KAC SR-15 with KAC trigger, Aimpoint T1 and XM193. I can't say what the groups would have looked like at 100 yards, since the ammo would have likely opened up and my eyesight would have been failing, but obviously the trigger control, NPA, breathing, and sight picture were right on. That KAC trigger is very similar to the GA SSA-E.
Point is not to brag, but to simply agree that any good trigger can do the job when the shooter does his job. Any other given day with that setup, and I could be struggling to shoot 1/2" groups at 25 yards. No single thing ever gets you to real precision; it's always a cumulative effect of multiple factors. Having a true match trigger, though, just removes one more little increment of variability.
MIDGAPATRIOT
11-17-12, 11:43
I have two Gieselle SSA trigger and love thier smoothness. Great for making accurate shots.
I have 3 of them. I won't ever put anything else in a rifle.
They're awesome.
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