View Full Version : Would federal, state and local LEOs abandon their posts and go home if SHTF?
I am thinking of a true SHTF scenario which threatens the very existence of civil society, not another round of Rodney King riots (or Katrina looting or Obama election riots or whatever).
In a true SHTF scenario, wouldn't LEO's realize that their family is in peril without them there, causing many to abandon their post and return home to protect the family? I know they are not supposed to, but the nature of SHTF is that all bets are off.
I don't think this thread will go well, but here goes. If the LE agency takes steps or has a contingency plan in place to protect the families of the officers, then they'll probably get 90%+ coverage. If they expect the oath of office to trump the security of their loved ones, that rate will plummet. When I get my family secured and safe, then I'll return to work. Until then, my family takes priority over those who don't provide for their own. Like everyone else, we work for a paycheck so that we can provide for ours.
Voodoo_Man
09-25-12, 09:47
Family always comes first, period.
As glocktogo stated, once I know my family is safe and provided for, I would have no issue going back to work, but no one will be faulted for going home to make sure their family is safe.
Littlelebowski
09-25-12, 10:19
Family always comes first, period.
As glocktogo stated, once I know my family is safe and provided for, I would have no issue going back to work, but no one will be faulted for going home to make sure their family is safe.
I also don't think this thread will go well but it's very easy to imagine charges against folks deserting their posts. See the New Orleans PD's actions during Katrina.
Voodoo_Man
09-25-12, 10:20
I also don't think this thread will go well but it's very easy to imagine charges against folks deserting their posts. See the New Orleans PD's actions during Katrina.
I am not read up on it, but I do not believe they ever came back to work until it was all cleared up.
Littlelebowski
09-25-12, 10:22
I am not read up on it, but I do not believe they ever came back to work until it was all cleared up.
Not very clear cut along one approach nor the other and very, very ugly.
I also don't think this thread will go well....
This whole sub-forum started going to shit a while back. We should rename it to "Real-life Rawles Novel Preparedness Forum and other SHTF Fantasies".
Littlelebowski
09-25-12, 10:29
This whole sub-forum started going to shit a while back. We should rename it to "Real-life Rawles Novel Preparedness Forum and other SHTF Fantasies".
Yup. Can't stand Rawles.
Voodoo_Man
09-25-12, 11:13
Not very clear cut along one approach nor the other and very, very ugly.
There is no "clear" directive on it in any department I know of. I know we do not have any guidelines. If I do not show up, call or otherwise I get carried AWOL. I can call and say "I am sick" for as long as I want...lol
Littlelebowski
09-25-12, 11:14
There is no "clear" directive on it in any department I know of. I know we do not have any guidelines. If I do not show up, call or otherwise I get carried AWOL. I can call and say "I am sick" for as long as I want...lol
I imagine it's a bit more clearcut for fed LEOs. Hopefully some will weigh in.
Voodoo_Man
09-25-12, 11:15
I imagine it's a bit more clearcut for fed LEOs. Hopefully some will weigh in.
The argument can be made that LE is never "off-duty" but what kind of job will a person do if they are unsure of their families well being?
Littlelebowski
09-25-12, 11:16
The argument can be made that LE is never "off-duty" but what kind of job will a person do if they are unsure of their families well being?
What does the military do (not being flippant)? Does the oath say "except in case of problems at home?"
Voodoo_Man
09-25-12, 11:31
What does the military do (not being flippant)? Does the oath say "except in case of problems at home?"
If you are thousands of miles away from your home/family and depending on what type of SHTF situation occurs...there may be no reason to try to get home, or possibility.
Too many variables to really narrow down a good answer.
Littlelebowski
09-25-12, 11:34
If you are thousands of miles away from your home/family and depending on what type of SHTF situation occurs...there may be no reason to try to get home, or possibility.
Too many variables to really narrow down a good answer.
Also, military discipline is probably much more rigid. Particularly if tasked with a mission at hand. (not being disrespectful, VDman and I are friends offline, folks).
Voodoo_Man
09-25-12, 12:01
Also, military discipline is probably much more rigid. Particularly if tasked with a mission at hand. (not being disrespectful, VDman and I are friends offline, folks).
I agree, for the most part, but its difficult to narrow down exactly what will happen because we do not know what kind of circumstances SHTF will bring.
Littlelebowski
09-25-12, 12:09
That's the problem - this is basically mental masturbation; just pure speculation. Will LEOs act like the Marines Khe Sanh or Fallujah? Or will they pull a New Orleans? We do not know and have no way of knowing. Gun forums are the home on the internet of "what if?!" questions.
Note: not ALL NOPD LEOs abandoned their posts.
I imagine it's a bit more clearcut for fed LEOs. Hopefully some will weigh in.
I'm not a LEO, but my fed agency has contingency plans in place to cover those eventualities on a local or regional scale. They have pre-arranged deployment teams that come in to take over duties in the effected area, so that the local employees can focus on taking care of their families and personal situations.
I'm a local reserve LEO. We have mutual aid agreements that allow for other agencies to assist. That wouldn't cover an entire effected area most likely, but that's what the National Guard are for on a state level.
Alaskapopo
09-25-12, 13:27
I am single so the choice is easy. Stay and do my job that is what we signed up for.
Pat
What does the military do (not being flippant)? Does the oath say "except in case of problems at home?"
What happens if a LEO doesn't show up for work? Get suspended/fired?
Mil gets thrown in jail or worse.
I've recently become very aware of the emphasis the military places on family safety. I had a personal loss back home while deployed. As anyone can tell you, it can take a week or more to get back stateside. I was home, almost exactly on the other side of the planet, in 2 days starting from when I stepped off my FOB and ending when I landed in Hawaii.
The military takes care of your family; you aren't effective if you're constantly worrrying about affairs back home. So if S did HTF while deployed, the home unit would do its best to take care of your family while you're gone. If SHTF while stateside, some people would definitely go AWOL, but I'd imagine most people would stay at their post since their family is with them.
This whole sub-forum started going to shit a while back. We should rename it to "Real-life Rawles Novel Preparedness Forum and other SHTF Fantasies".
:lol:
For the first time reading a thread on the interwebs I can honestly say I "laughed out loud." I actually blew a little snot out of my nose when I read this.
"Survival" related boards inevitably turn into speculative paranoia fests...
What happens if a LEO doesn't show up for work? Get suspended/fired?
Mil gets thrown in jail or worse.
I've recently become very aware of the emphasis the military places on family safety. I had a personal loss back home while deployed. As anyone can tell you, it can take a week or more to get back stateside. I was home, almost exactly on the other side of the planet, in 2 days starting from when I stepped off my FOB and landed in Hawaii.
The military takes care of your family; you aren't effective if you're constantly worrrying about affairs back home. So if S did HTF while deployed, the home unit would do its best to take care of your family while you're gone. If SHTF while stateside, some people would definitely go AWOL, but I'd imagine most people would stay at their post since their family is with them.
There are plenty of people, myself included, who had the exact opposite of your experience. I should have followed my grandfather's advice and pitched a stink with IG and Congress, but I was a young enlisted guy terrified of ruining a career (which happened anyway) and was drilled with Khaki-is-God and believed it. In fact, I would say the military is a whole lot better at eating its young than it is in caring for them. This could vary between branches obviously, I was Navy.
And don't get me started on military "medicine."
ETA: Sorry for the thread drift.
Littlelebowski
09-25-12, 13:49
I've seen it both ways on the military taking care of your family and I think it really depends on your chain of command.
I imagine it's a bit more clearcut for fed LEOs. Hopefully some will weigh in.
I don't know about other agencies but the Bureau has plans in place to get our families to us so that we can continue to do what they pay us for
exiledtoIA
09-25-12, 14:04
Exactly right. A good unit will literally move heaven and earth to get you home. A bad one and you are screwed.
I've seen it both ways on the military taking care of your family and I think it really depends on your chain of command.
PA PATRIOT
09-25-12, 14:21
For most locally employed LEO's the worst that can happen is they would be fired from their jobs for not reporting to work over a extended period of time.
Now weigh that against the LEO going to work during a total nation wide SHTF event and having his entire family injured or murdered because of his absence.
Which penally do you think the LEO can live with for the rest of his life after selecting one of the two options?
For most the answer is very simple.
And that is why in a real disaster the heavy lifting will be done with Soldiers.
And that is why in a real disaster the heavy lifting will be done by those who prepare to survive without assistance from the government.
Fixed it for ya! :)
nineteenkilo
09-25-12, 15:06
... it really depends on your chain of command.
This is it in a nutshell.
This is it in a nutshell.
Chain of Command goes out the window for me. I would be home. I am certain many other Agents would be also.
Mine already know that I'll report in so long as my own property is secure: riots down in Long Beach and I live in Pasadena? I'm showing up, riots in my town or the next town over (or even between me and the armory) I'm sitting put at home, armed, until my unit rolls up and picks me up.
Part of my reasoning was, I have guns and ammo, I don't want to leave it unattended for bad guys to come in and steal and then use on innocent bystanders or myself and other responders.
Alaskapopo
09-25-12, 17:51
Mine already know that I'll report in so long as my own property is secure: riots down in Long Beach and I live in Pasadena? I'm showing up, riots in my town or the next town over (or even between me and the armory) I'm sitting put at home, armed, until my unit rolls up and picks me up.
Part of my reasoning was, I have guns and ammo, I don't want to leave it unattended for bad guys to come in and steal and then use on innocent bystanders or myself and other responders.
They make some pretty good gun safes now days. You should have one if you own guns.
Pat
And that is why in a real disaster the heavy lifting will be done with Soldiers.
For the win...
They make some pretty good gun safes now days. You should have one if you own guns.
Pat
I do, well, a decent one anyways, but at the same time, I'm not going to risk myself by fighting through hostile area to link up with my unit, who probably wouldn't have any ammo, risk my personal stuff, everything I own, to be pillaged when I can sit tight and extremely well armed, keep a small area secure and wait until the Cav (quite literally) comes by and secures the area as a whole.
All in all though, can't really say one way or another as each possible scenario is different, to many factors come in to play to say for certain what path will be taken.
Alaskapopo
09-25-12, 18:53
For the win...
Yep someone has to fill the sandbags. (kidding)
Pat
Once again, someone should stop and define what this nebulous, fantastical term "SHTF" is. By itself, it is fairly useless. So much, that it should probably be stricken. Use of "SHTF", "TEOTWAWKI", and the like take what could be useful, interesting discussions and flush them before they start.
To consider the issue at hand, there really isn't a lot to wonder about here. Simply look at the cases of natural disasters (regional or localized) that produced evacuations, displacements, diversions of service, or other calamities that caused public safety to consider potential conflicts of family and duty. The trend is that the overwhelming majority of public safety professionals act professionally.
However, that isn't as much fun as putting on the tinfoil hat and railing about who will carry the most water, and adding noise to boost post counts.
If this is about post-apocalyptic, zombie, Mad Max type scenarios, lock the thread and spare us all.
my 2 cents.
former combat engineer and hopeful future local PD opinion.
if its a serious crisis, say a bad epidemic or fallout from a dirty suitcase nuke.
i bet about 50% of the local pd will be going home to be with the family. probably all the detectives, patrolman and operators. higher ups will lead by example and stay on for days straight
but its highly unlikely the MIL will have a size-able number of deserters.
2 reasons.
one is the simple fact that if its that bad (SHTF and is raining down) kind of bad, they will be to far away to make it home.
and two is if its that bad, the first deserters will be made examples of so that the whole unit dosent go awol.
Soldiers are conditioned to function under adverse conditions with their units and continue indefinitely. It is a major goal of military training, depending of course on MOS. Cops don't have that sort of discipline (as a group) though individuals may. Also Soldiers families are all over the country and many won't have family in the affected area to worry about.
The real question is, why do some of you have families that can't handle a crisis in your absence? There should be a contingency in case you are killed or otherwise unavailable.
Soldiers are conditioned to function under adverse conditions with their units and continue indefinitely. It is a major goal of military training, depending of course on MOS. Cops don't have that sort of discipline (as a group) though individuals may. Also Soldiers families are all over the country and many won't have family in the affected area to worry about.
The real question is, why do some of you have families that can't handle a crisis in your absence? There should be a contingency in case you are killed or otherwise unavailable.
Would you seriously leave a wife and child in a hot zone to fend for themselves? Perhaps you didn't think that through all the way. If the effected area doesn't include where my family is, I'll report ASAP. If it does, I'll report when my family is secure. If you expect me to expose my family to unnecessary risk because you were unprepared to secure your own, that's your problem, not mine.
nineteenkilo
09-26-12, 12:29
This is why I seconded the chain of command sentiment earlier. Some have a chain of command that is very understanding and would be loathe to enforce any sort of penalty on someone watching their family's 6. Others, not so much.
Since I am no longer bound by a formal chain of command, I will default to my family's safety and well-being every single time. I have little doubt that everyone else around me in my current AO would do exactly the same thing - including LEO's.
Would you seriously leave a wife and child in a hot zone to fend for themselves? Perhaps you didn't think that through all the way. If the effected area doesn't include where my family is, I'll report ASAP. If it does, I'll report when my family is secure. If you expect me to expose my family to unnecessary risk because you were unprepared to secure your own, that's your problem, not mine.
Me and mine are secure. More importantly there is no single person who is indispensable.
The question is what can you do, or what haven't you done, to make your family able to overcome the situation if you are injured, killed or otherwise unable to attend to them.
Me and mine are secure. More importantly there is no single person who is indispensable.
The question is what can you do, or what haven't you done, to make your family able to overcome the situation if you are injured, killed or otherwise unable to attend to them.
The subject of this thread isn't whether your family would survive without you. It's whether you, and/or your unit/agency value your family as much as you do. Given the decision to make, do you protect your family, or the families of others who haven't prepared to fend for themselves. I think I was pretty clear that if my family is out of harm's way, I'll be on the job. If it's not, then I'll be doing what I need to do to make that happen.
If your family's ability to survive a chaotic event isn't enhanced by your presence, then you must not be bringing anything to the table. If you think it's OK to leave your family to fend for themselves in a dangerous situation when you could choose be there to enhance their capabilities, I'd contend that you're a poor provider for your family, regardless of what preparations you've made in advance.
I'm guessing that you're a type A personality and draw your emotional sustenance from your families dependence on you.
This entire thread is retarded.
Here is the ONLY answer; it depends on the situation. Nothing more and nothing less. Now move on.
THE END
I'm guessing that you're a type A personality and draw your emotional sustenance from your families dependence on you.
I'm guessing you're a type B personality who expects everything to take care of itself while you obsess over something insignificant. :)
PA PATRIOT
09-26-12, 18:25
This thread is falling apart fast,
For my last post about this subject I would suggest that each individual LEO would do whats best for his family first and then report for duty with a clear mind and conscience knowing that the most valuable and treasured members in his life were safe and secure.
To place others safety over yourself is said to be heroic and brave.
To place others safety over your families wellbeing is poor priority assessment.
This thread is falling apart fast,
For my last post about this subject I would suggest that each individual LEO would do whats best for his family first and then report for duty with a clear mind and conscience knowing that the most valuable and treasured members in his life were safe and secure.
To place others safety over yourself is said to be heroic and brave.
To place others safety over your families wellbeing is poor priority assessment.
^ + 1. Well said.
I mentioned earlier that the Bureau does have policies in place to get our loved ones to safety in time of emergency.
However, I failed to mention that yearly we have to sign a form stating that we are "mission essential" personnel and even if all other gov. employees are excused from coming to work or are allowed to leave early, these directives do not pertain to us. "Violation will result in the officer being considered AWOL and will be subject to disciplinary action".
So as others have said quite well, it just comes down to each individual doing what you need to do when you need to do it.
This entire thread is retarded.
Here is the ONLY answer; it depends on the situation. Nothing more and nothing less. Now move on.
THE END
Agreed.
Moose-Knuckle
09-27-12, 17:19
This conversation comes up from time to time amongst colleagues. To put it in a nutshell . . . at the end of the day it is nothing more than a J O B.
Our agency practiced a drill once upon a time in the event of a terrorist biological/chemical attack. Back then I was on our department's crowd control unit, the drill was a joint op with us and SWAT. If you keep up with the Federal Governments COG plans then you should be aware of the SNS (http://www.cdc.gov/phpr/stockpile/stockpile.htm). One thing I learned after the drill was that during such an event decision makers anticipate public safety personnel not reporting in for work. If such an event were to transpire one of the incentives for the LE/EMS personnel to report for duty is that at pre-determined collection and distribution centers their families would receive medications/vaccines/et al. before the general public.
Right there is why the police will be ineffective and the military will get it done. One is a job you can quit and the other isn't.
As long as after things are sorted out everyone who disappeared is terminated for cause I don't care if you hang around or not. I'm probably better off without the police nearby anyway.
Alaskapopo
09-28-12, 18:01
Right there is why the police will be ineffective and the military will get it done. One is a job you can quit and the other isn't.
As long as after things are sorted out everyone who disappeared is terminated for cause I don't care if you hang around or not. I'm probably better off without the police nearby anyway.
Yea the problem is the military can't by law police civilians. And if you want to compare professionalism and dedication to the job, I would take a 25 to 40 something officer over a 18 to 22 year old solider. I have a friend who is a first sergeant in the Army and he is constantly getting calls about his guys getting arrested for DUI, DV crimes and other stupidity. He wants to pull his hair out. In my career in Law Enforcement I have only seen a handful of cops do that kind of behavior that he is dealing with on a daily basis. Hell one of the more serious calls I had recently was a soldier managed to steel a few pounds of C4 and was reportedly heading our way to kill himself. We confirmed with his commander that the C4 was in fact missing and they advised us the kill radius for the stuff he had was 400 yards. Talk about high pucker factor. Lucky he was caught and did not blow anybody up.
I respect our soldiers and I have many I call friends. But this back and forth on this thread (soldiers are better than cops crap) needs to stop its stupid.
Pat
I'm not saying Soldiers are better than cops. I'm saying they'll go into places that people who are allowed to quit won't. They'll do it perhaps because they are trained to think differently, or because they have pride in their units, or because they go where they are ordered or to prison. Why doesn't matter, they'll go.
Posse Comitatus is mostly defunct at this point, doesn't affect the Guard, etc. If its bad, there will be no consequences to the use of AD military.
Moose-Knuckle
09-28-12, 18:16
Right there is why the police will be ineffective and the military will get it done.
If the situation is bad enough and nation states do not exist anymore the military won't be in existence. Those guys and gals have families too.
Alaskapopo
09-28-12, 19:36
I'm not saying Soldiers are better than cops. I'm saying they'll go into places that people who are allowed to quit won't. They'll do it perhaps because they are trained to think differently, or because they have pride in their units, or because they go where they are ordered or to prison. Why doesn't matter, they'll go.
Posse Comitatus is mostly defunct at this point, doesn't affect the Guard, etc. If its bad, there will be no consequences to the use of AD military.
Posse Comitatus is still in effect. When I was in the drug task force the National guard would help with somethings like evidence collection but they were not allowed to arrest or carry weapons. Yes soldiers can quit, they can desert and it happens all the time.
Pat
Posse Comitatus is gutted with exceptions. And Guard on state orders aren't limited like active duty.
Moose-Knuckle
09-28-12, 21:29
Read through Barry's NDAA:
“Section 1031 essentially repeals the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 by authorizing the US military to perform law enforcement functions on American soil, ” - Senator Mark Udahl
What does the military do (not being flippant)? Does the oath say "except in case of problems at home?"I am not sure an oath has any meaning these days . Nor do I believe most that take oaths understand what they mean.
I've seen it both ways on the military taking care of your family and I think it really depends on your chain of command.
This is true in my experience as well.
I don't think this thread will go well, but here goes. If the LE agency takes steps or has a contingency plan in place to protect the families of the officers, then they'll probably get 90%+ coverage. If they expect the oath of office to trump the security of their loved ones, that rate will plummet. When I get my family secured and safe, then I'll return to work. Until then, my family takes priority over those who don't provide for their own. Like everyone else, we work for a paycheck so that we can provide for ours.
Pretty much this.
I am lucky that my family has the availability of extended family in the area to look after each other.
I think it would also depend on the type of agency and the type of emergency. Guys from a smaller agency whose family is part of a small community will have much more of an interest in seeing the community defended from whatever threats exist.
Guys whoa ren't part of the community they work for will be more likely to put family ahead of the job
RogerinTPA
10-08-12, 18:20
Yea the problem is the military can't by law police civilians. And if you want to compare professionalism and dedication to the job, I would take a 25 to 40 something officer over a 18 to 22 year old solider. I have a friend who is a first sergeant in the Army and he is constantly getting calls about his guys getting arrested for DUI, DV crimes and other stupidity. He wants to pull his hair out. In my career in Law Enforcement I have only seen a handful of cops do that kind of behavior that he is dealing with on a daily basis. Hell one of the more serious calls I had recently was a soldier managed to steel a few pounds of C4 and was reportedly heading our way to kill himself. We confirmed with his commander that the C4 was in fact missing and they advised us the kill radius for the stuff he had was 400 yards. Talk about high pucker factor. Lucky he was caught and did not blow anybody up.
I respect our soldiers and I have many I call friends. But this back and forth on this thread (soldiers are better than cops crap) needs to stop its stupid.
Pat
Looks like a classic case of piss poor leadership, from the commander on down...which breeds the discipline problems. In a 22 year career on active duty and the reserves, I rarely saw issues like that. The few times I saw those examples were from problem children that the leaders couldn't figure out how to square their asses away. Not all military units are like that, especially active duty trigger pullers. More so reservist and NGs because of the closer ties to the civilian community and being twice removed from the active duty culture.
Alaskapopo
10-08-12, 19:44
Looks like a classic case of piss poor leadership, from the commander on down...which breeds the discipline problems. In a 22 year career on active duty and the reserves, I rarely saw issues like that. The few times I saw those examples were from problem children that the leaders couldn't figure out how to square their asses away. Not all military units are like that, especially active duty trigger pullers. More so reservist and NGs because of the closer ties to the civilian community and being twice removed from the active duty culture.
Unfortunately I have arrested too many soldiers who have come to my town for the same crimes to think its is an isolated incident. (We have two military resorts in our town) The problem is simple you have a lot of younger people in the military who are under a lot of stress and you mix alcohol to that and bad things happen.
Pat
RogerinTPA
10-08-12, 19:49
Unfortunately I have arrested too many soldiers who have come to my town for the same crimes to think its is an isolated incident. (We have two military resorts in our town) The problem is simple you have a lot of younger people in the military who are under a lot of stress and you mix alcohol to that and bad things happen.
Pat
I don't disavow your experience, just saying it's a leadership issue.
Alaskapopo
10-08-12, 19:53
I don't disavow your experience, just saying it's a leadership issue.
All I am saying is if its a leadership issue then its a wide spread one.
because we get soldiers from all over the country. Like I said I attribute it to age, alcohol and the stress of war.
Pat
No it is the fact that back in '04ish they started to let the dregs of humanity in and now we are paying the price. Thinking it is a leadership issue is just naive and the standard excuse that the chain of command has been using for years to divert the true responsibility. Shit heads are going to be shit heads even with George Washington as a leader.
Both .mil and .cops recruit from the general population, and assholes who we bump into in the general population end up wearing uniforms too (a minority, fortunately).
RogerinTPA
10-09-12, 12:38
No it is the fact that back in '04ish they started to let the dregs of humanity in and now we are paying the price. Thinking it is a leadership issue is just naive and the standard excuse that the chain of command has been using for years to divert the true responsibility. Shit heads are going to be shit heads even with George Washington as a leader.
Thinking it's not a leadership issue means you don't know what real leadership is. A lack of leadership is never an excuse for shit personal conduct in your men, on or off the job. Leadership is an art and not just a symbol. Good leadership provides the guidance for people to do the right thing, especially when the boss isn't around or looking. Of course there are those who are going to be dick heads anyway, but good leadership by and large, quells that impulse.
Thinking it's not a leadership issue means you don't know what real leadership is. A lack of leadership is never an excuse for shit personal conduct in your men, on or off the job. Leadership is an art and not just a symbol. Good leadership provides the guidance for people to do the right thing, especially when the boss isn't around or looking. Of course there are those who are going to be dick heads anyway, but good leadership by and large, quells that impulse.
Keep think that …… I am not going to get into an argument with someone who does not even know who he is arguing with.
Back on topic please…..even though it is a retarded topic. ;)
RogerinTPA
10-09-12, 15:00
Keep think that …… I am not going to get into an argument with someone who does not even know who he is arguing with.
Back on topic please…..even though it is a retarded topic. ;)
My point exactly.;)
My point exactly.;)
:lol::lol::lol:
Now that was funny!
PA PATRIOT
10-09-12, 16:32
Maybe if we all wish real hard and click are heels three times repeating the phase,
"Oh M4Carbine Gods, Please close this thread"
"Oh M4Carbine Gods, Please close this thread"
"Oh M4Carbine Gods, Please close this thread"
It just may happen! :D
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.