View Full Version : Survival vs survival...what's the difference?
I grew up spending a lot of time outdoors. My mother and I were blessed to rent a house on some of our friends' family property of 60 acres. Hunting, shooting, fishing, and camping were daily activities. Vacations consisted of spending a week or two with grandpa in the south GA woods cutting timber and learning more natural oddities and facts. (Plant id, animal tracking, woodcraft).
I joined the scouts at age 11 and stayed active through achieving the Eagle Scout Rank at age 18. Our scoutmaster completed his 50th year as a scoutmaster just before I reached Eagle, so the way things were done in our troop were a lot more traditional (better).
My basic question is this: I read about the general approach to survival here and having discussions with others in the firearms community and there seems to be a difference in mindset. I'm not quite sure how to describe it, but it almost seems like there's an unwarranted level of paranoia about it or something. People have to have all sorts of whiz-bang gadgetry to start a fire or purify some water...what's the deal?
Am I missing some higher-level survival stuff or is it just that most people didn't grow up around it like I did, so it's not just common knowledge?
Anyone with insight to both sides? Does my question even make sense?
I grew up spending a lot of time outdoors. My mother and I were blessed to rent a house on some of our friends' family property of 60 acres. Hunting, shooting, fishing, and camping were daily activities. Vacations consisted of spending a week or two with grandpa in the south GA woods cutting timber and learning more natural oddities and facts. (Plant id, animal tracking, woodcraft).
I joined the scouts at age 11 and stayed active through achieving the Eagle Scout Rank at age 18. Our scoutmaster completed his 50th year as a scoutmaster just before I reached Eagle, so the way things were done in our troop were a lot more traditional (better).
My basic question is this: I read about the general approach to survival here and having discussions with others in the firearms community and there seems to be a difference in mindset. I'm not quite sure how to describe it, but it almost seems like there's an unwarranted level of paranoia about it or something. People have to have all sorts of whiz-bang gadgetry to start a fire or purify some water...what's the deal?
Am I missing some higher-level survival stuff or is it just that most people didn't grow up around it like I did, so it's not just common knowledge?
Anyone with insight to both sides? Does my question even make sense?
Before answering, here's my background:
Born and raised in a small city.
Participated in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts, but quit before reaching eagle.
Participated in Army JROTC in highschool, the only things I learned worth anything outside the military is land navigation.
Currently Active duty USAF, but the only "field" training came from ECAC and pre-deployment combat training.
I watch Survivorman and Man vs. Wild every so often on Discovery Channel.
The idea about whiz-bang gadgetry like a lighter is that if we have technology available, why not use it? Don't neglect basic fieldcraft (flint, rubbing two sticks, etc), but take advantage of modern conveniences while you can. If you're just camping for a weekend, what's an extra oz and buck for a BIC lighter?
Sure you can start a fire to boil water, but that takes longer, possibly uses up fire-making tools, and at night lets everyone around know where you are. Alternatively, you can use water purification tablets and just drop it in. Or if you have them, throw the water in a clear waterbottle and leave it in the sun for the entire day.
In my limited experience, helpful tools and technologies allows people to conserve energy and save time while those tools and technologies last. If you have a camp or site with storage, those tools and technologies could last a lifetime, and the extra weight would be negligible. Even a vehicle or pack animal can make carrying these little conveniences worthwhile.
Hope I answered your question well enough.
I've found that a lot of folks say they can light a fire with nothing more than a flint, but when asked to do so... well, FAIL.
Fieldcraft IS a perishable skill. Many people learned to do it years ago and automatically assume they can still do it ten years later. The paranoia, I think, comes from some deep seated fear that they actually realize its a perishable skill so they compensate with wiz-bang devises.
Even though I have some of the wiz-bang devises myself, I make it a point on every camping trip to light at least a fire or two the hard way, just to make sure I can.
Fishing with nothing more than line and a hook is another fun thing to do. Friends often ask "dude, why don't you just use your pole?" and I often say "I will, but I wanna catch one this way first." Besides, it makes it more interesting, at least to me.
nineteenkilo
09-25-12, 15:15
To the OP - I think it's a bit of both. I am as rural as it gets these days, but I've lived in large metro areas. There is no question that people raised like us take for granted the basics of outdoor functioning. Many of the metroids that I've encountered considered such skills at best as pointless. Others consider them the trademark of the great unwashed barbarian horde.
The fact is, it doesn't matter what or why-to me at least.
I'm comfortable doing as other posters have done and maintain my skills through semi-regular use. I use the local scout troop as an outlet since my son is a member. I get to teach as well as learn/remember/practice the perishable skills on which I may one day have to rely.
I never fail to astound myself at how little I actually know.
Before anything gets read the wrong way, I'm not intending to claim that I know everything about survival or anything. For sure, honing skills and practicing to stay sharp are important. I just noticed a difference.
I'm not opposed to technology. For pete's sake, I graduated from the Georgia Institute of it ;)
Let's take fire for example. I carry in my pack:
1) 1 butane lighter
2) 1 Bic lighter
3) Matches in a ziplok bag
4) Flint & steel in another ziplok bag with dryer lint
That's 4 ways to start a fire in my pack. Every time I go camping, I always start the first fire with flint & steel just to make sure I still remember how.
Like most things in life, though, it's mostly prep work. I don't care if you've got a propane torch, you're not going to have much of a fire if you don't build it right to start with. Do you know how to tailor the fire to heat, vs cooking, vs less smoke, vs more smoke (signal fire)?
I guess I just like taking a natural, common-sense approach to the outdoors and survival, and some of the "prepper" mentality just escapes me with the level of gadgetry they promote.
In fact, the more I think and read about it lately, I'm thinking a muzzle loading firearm with the ability to cast lead balls might be the best bet for sustainability after about 5 years of social collapse...that or a bow/arrow.
Anyhow...
My background:
suburban upbringing, made Eagle at 16, lots of camping in my troop - over 300 nights camping by the time I left.
You're a bit vague ...
paranoia? You mean needing guns and ammo? If so, well, you're on a gun board ...
Or do you mean having 8 ways to start fire, 3 to navigate, 7 to clean water .... ?
Lots of folks replace knowledge with gear. When I was a scout I carried a lighter, a MRE match book, and one of those god awful magnesium/flint bars to start a fire. Nearly everything else did NOT have a backup. Not saying I was Mr. Know It All, I just didn't like carrying a lot, and figured if I had fire and a knife, then I was good for nearly every circumstance (grew up in SoCal).
Might get better answers if you clarify what exactly you're trying to ask.
Reagans Rascals
09-25-12, 19:40
...Sure you can start a fire to boil water, but that takes longer, possibly uses up fire-making tools, and at night lets everyone around know where you are.
enter the Dakota fire hole.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXDlSjZ5fgQ
My background:
suburban upbringing, made Eagle at 16, lots of camping in my troop - over 300 nights camping by the time I left.
You're a bit vague ...
paranoia? You mean needing guns and ammo? If so, well, you're on a gun board ...
Or do you mean having 8 ways to start fire, 3 to navigate, 7 to clean water .... ?
Lots of folks replace knowledge with gear. When I was a scout I carried a lighter, a MRE match book, and one of those god awful magnesium/flint bars to start a fire. Nearly everything else did NOT have a backup. Not saying I was Mr. Know It All, I just didn't like carrying a lot, and figured if I had fire and a knife, then I was good for nearly every circumstance (grew up in SoCal).
Might get better answers if you clarify what exactly you're trying to ask.
The second part of your statement is probably more of what I'm getting at. Don't get me wrong, I carry 2 sets of spare batteries and a spare light, a spare knife, and at lest 3 ways to start a fire, but some folks seem to just go overboard on gadgetry. They way they talk about survival, it makes you wonder how people lived 200 years ago.
I guess the best way I know to explain my feelings is with an example...we had this kid try to join our troop one time. His name was John and he demanded that we call him "Sarge." He was a typical G.I. Joe wannabe type guy. He showed up for the first two night trip with tons of milsurp gear...sleeping bag, pack, canteens, and wearing BDU's. While we were setting up our tents and laying out our insulating mats, he was calling us pussies and bragging about how he didn't need a sleeping pad or even a tent. At 8'oclock the next morning, his parents were there to pick him up and he was crying.
Maybe it's different here on m4C (most things are:D) I looked through this section to try to find an example and couldn't really find one. That's a good thing.
Bottom line, I think some basic tools and training will take you a lot further than stockpiles of MRE's, a generator, and 10 different ways to purify water.
enter the Dakota fire hole.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXDlSjZ5fgQ
That is a great idea...You could cook over it too by just putting your pot right on top of the fire hole and the fire can still breathe.
That is a great idea...You could cook over it too by just putting your pot right on top of the fire hole and the fire can still breathe.
Yes, and fashion a proper backstop to radiate the heat toward you...
That is but one example of old ways that are mostly forgotten.
To the OP, sure there is some amount of downright paranoia amongst some. Then there are those that have a lot of pent up anxiety over what they read constantly (the coming teotwawki stuff) or those that simply notice the uptick in certain trends and makes them feel like they don't want to miss the boat. Like the zombie thing; hell there's enough of that now theat there is hornady ammo specialized for them, EoTech sight just for them and a whole web page on the CDC website about it. So is it a genuine concern or simply taking advantage of a good reason to move product at inflated prices? You make your own conclusions.
As far as the survival itself, I was a city boy- went through cub,webelo,boy scouts up to 1st class anyway. Most outdoor skills gained there and the many years of hunting.
Technology, sure, I'll take advantage of it where I can and do pack it. I believe in redundancy too. (4 10mm pistols... yikes!)
Ultimately, whatever floats your boat and serves your need. Life's short- be happy with what you want to do. I let the others worry about themselves, don't care what others think of my choices. But do educate yourself. Like the OP's last statement about simple tools and training vs MRE's and generator... well, I choose all of the above that I can afford! Insert Boy Scout Motto here.... then Illegitimati non-carborundum.
Reagans Rascals
09-27-12, 18:06
Some people think technology can make up for a lack of knowledge... and it can... but only to a certain point....
these are the same kinds of people that have 17 pound M4's.... with all of that shit hanging off of them.... because they don't really have any viable knowledge or training... so they feel technology can make up for that....
remember..... THE MORE YOU KNOW THE LESS YOU NEED
need... being the key word... want and need are 2 different animals...
thus.... the more actual knowledge and first hand experience you have, the less dependence you will have on technology...
take the Dakota Fire Hole I had mentioned earlier for instance:
its fast to make
it creates a more efficient fire thus creating less smoke and uses less wood
it keeps the fire safe from windy conditions
it creates a convective heating condition that is more efficient at heating a shelter when used in combination with a proper Heat Reflector
it provides and easy way to cook over it
it is hard to see at night thus keeping your bivy stealthy
it is very easy to clean up, simply kick all the dirt you dug out back into it and self extinguishes and hides the fact that you even had a fire there
so now you have eliminated using an above ground fire, have reserved your fire wood/kindling, eliminated using a cooking rack or some type of A-frame cooking stand... made a warmer bivy and thus do not require as an extensive shelter... the list goes on and on for the things you have eliminated the need for...
however; most standard "preppers" are oblivious to this technique because they have no real world knowledge or experience to fall back on... they simply hoard technology and hope that will be enough... and in the end... those people will be the first to go because they are not self sustainable without their "stores"
it sucks to try and light a friction fire in wet, windy, cold, snowy, dark conditions... and its damn near impossible... but what if that is all you can do?
technology fails... knowledge and experience are the only true valuable resources...
however... if you have that knowledge and experience... there's nothing in the books that says that's all you're allowed to rely on... sometimes its ok to use technology... sometimes its more than fine to use a lighter or ferro rod... but the idea is to be self sufficient with nothing... as in... you end up in a survival situation without even a blade... and you can make do...
its called learn the basics first... then build your knowledge base on top of that...
HackerF15E
09-27-12, 18:59
People have to have all sorts of whiz-bang gadgetry to start a fire or purify some water...what's the deal?
Am I missing some higher-level survival stuff or is it just that most people didn't grow up around it like I did, so it's not just common knowledge?
I think we have a lot of folks in the United States -- it seems to be a generation X and later thing -- who think that things are more important than knowledge or experience.
This is the same thing we see with many firearms owners (seems especially in the last 20 years to be on significant increase): people who are obsessing over minute details of their rifle, and all kinds of accessories, yet barely spend any time actually shooting it or getting experienced as a rifleman. They see much more importance in the tool than they do the ability to use it, or even the ability to achieve the same result through expertise and a lesser tool.
I think we have a lot of folks in the United States -- it seems to be a generation X and later thing -- who think that things are more important than knowledge or experience.
This is the same thing we see with many firearms owners (seems especially in the last 20 years to be on significant increase): people who are obsessing over minute details of their rifle, and all kinds of accessories, yet barely spend any time actually shooting it or getting experienced as a rifleman. They see much more importance in the tool than they do the ability to use it, or even the ability to achieve the same result through expertise and a lesser tool.
^^^ amen brother; word...
nineteenkilo
10-01-12, 15:26
This is the same thing we see with many firearms owners (seems especially in the last 20 years to be on significant increase): people who are obsessing over minute details of their rifle, and all kinds of accessories, yet barely spend any time actually shooting it or getting experienced as a rifleman. They see much more importance in the tool than they do the ability to use it, or even the ability to achieve the same result through expertise and a lesser tool.
In all honesty, my issued rifle in the big army was beat to shit. I loved it and it served me well so I couldn't part with it. It had no doo-dads, lights, etc and went bang every single time the trigger was slapped. It was exceedingly accurate andI wore out every part of that weapon through use and carry. Not once did I ever need any 'shite' hanging from a rail to make me more effective.
What makes me sad about it is that I was an anomaly. Most of the other guys had lots of 'kit' (how I loathe that word).
What the past couple of posters have said. There are folks out there that put gear above skills.
I see it quite often. A person will be full of bravado in garrison, gripe about the adequate gear issued to them, then perform below expectation in the field, claiming they would have done better if they had better gear.
Myself, I prefer to test myself with primitive or adequate gear so I can enjoy the Gucci gear when it's available.
The best training tool there is, can't beat the one between your ears...
remington79
12-30-12, 18:37
I made Eagle Scout just before I turned 18. We went camping and hiking often. I still rememberand use the skills I used.
When I go camping I always start my fires without a lighter. I actually find it easier to start a fire without a lighter. When I go outin the woods I carry multiple ways to start a firde. I'll bring a fero rod and a magnesium rod, dryer lint, compressed wood shavings and wax, and a vaccume sealed bic. I also always take a Zippo with me.
This may sound like a lot of stuff but it doesn't up much room or add much weight. There are various ways to start a fire but these work for me. I have always done well with a magnesium bar. Some may consider this as higher tech. However, I'm looking at more effcient ways to start a fire, especially if I'm cold and/wet.
If you want a website that has a lot of info on primative skills go to www.bushcraftusa.com
I forgot to mention some fatwood goes a long ways for fire starting.
I think a versatile skillset is important. But I honestly do not see the need to spend time perfecting the more difficult techniques when there are easier ways to get things done.
The first part of survival is planning, being prepared. And honestly, if you have nothing, not even a knife, you won't get very far in demanding conditions.
The key part to survival is to minimize effort and maximize results, seeing as energy will eventually become a scarce resource. If your survival measures require more effort and energy expenditure than the positive effect it provides, you are a lot more likely to fail.
In my opinion, you should know the follwoing things:
-Build shelters (a few different types, for varying climates and terrain)
-Build and sustain a fire (for cooking, heat source and signalling)
-Start a fire (a few different alternative methods)
-Forage for food (easy fishing, snares)
I am aware that people can end up in survival situations that appear out of the blue, but to maximize the chances of survival you need the right gear.
Even though you have the knowledge, without certain equipment it will be very difficult.
I think a versatile skillset is important. But I honestly do not see the need to spend time perfecting the more difficult techniques when there are easier ways to get things done.
I agree, no need to reinvent the caveman for the majority of the population.
I have some of the whiz-bang stuff myself, but it is personally just a supplement to the more permanent survival supplies, and also helps with redundancy. For example, carrying a waterproofed BIC, a ferrocium rod, and matches. Or, a fancy water purifier but also tablets and a simple boiling pot and stove.
For me, a lot of it is that in a real survival situation I want redundancy but also the best technology available. If it's a real survival situation, it would save time and energy to use the lighter and purification filter over the alternatives.
But like others have said, they're no substitute for knowledge.
I think we have a lot of folks in the United States -- it seems to be a generation X and later thing -- who think that things are more important than knowledge or experience.
This is the same thing we see with many firearms owners (seems especially in the last 20 years to be on significant increase): people who are obsessing over minute details of their rifle, and all kinds of accessories, yet barely spend any time actually shooting it or getting experienced as a rifleman. They see much more importance in the tool than they do the ability to use it, or even the ability to achieve the same result through expertise and a lesser tool.
All that matters is tacticool.
In fact, the more I think and read about it lately, I'm thinking a muzzle loading firearm with the ability to cast lead balls might be the best bet for sustainability after about 5 years of social collapse...that or a bow/arrow.
Anyhow...
I dunno, I used to be able to make do for a couple weeks in the field with an E-Tool, a pocket hammock, a medium weight sleeping bag, a poncho and some C-Ration matches. As I got older and softer and accumulated lots more survival gear hard routine became increasingly a thing of the past for me. That is why I accumulated all the survival gear to begin with. .. If the grid went down for an extended length of time ("5 yrs ?!"), yeah man, Bows & Arrows might not be such a bad idea. .. Seriously looking into a high power spring-air powered rifle lately, it's about the only thing left on the shelves these days...
I took a class with Tracker Dan via Northern Red last October. You can look up his background if you want, but Dan has an extensive background in living/surviving outside.
He taught the primitive and modern methods of fire, shelter, cord, and edge, and he was very clear that there is no reason why you shouldn't have fire, edge, and cord with you at all times. Obviously it is a hell of a lot easier to make fire with a Bic than with sticks, and he stressed that, mostly by making us try to create fire with sticks. We were even allowed to use paracord for the bow, which still didn't help much for the students.
At that time, the woods were very damp. Damp enough that I couldn't find any tinder in the woods dry enough for a firesteel to work on. Dan explained ways to plan for that and how to dry tinder when you have the time, but at that moment, primitive or even semi-modern (firesteel) fire was not happening.
No amount of skill is going to make a primitive fire as easy as modern fire when the conditions are difficult. You should have the necessary skills and you should have planned well enough so that you also have the necessary gear.
Depends on your definition of technology. Everyone wants to at least have a knife on you when in a survival situation. A knife is a tool, thus, technology. Make a fire with a bow and drill? A tool also, technology. Make a fire with flint and steel? Technology, because it's a tool, man-made. Get me point. Some depend on the more advanced technologies, some on the more primitive, but we all need some technology to survive. Live and let live. If it helps them, then good for them.
Am I missing some higher-level survival stuff or is it just that most people didn't grow up around it like I did, so it's not just common knowledge?
Anyone with insight to both sides? Does my question even make sense?
I grew up in a very similar way to you but in a more hostile environment. The answer is yes most people didn't grow up like you so they are easily swayed by "survivalist" marketing. Ever since Y2K there has been an upsurge in gadgetry to sell to the paranoid.
There is something to be said about having quality equipment. But, knowing what equipment is critical seems to be lost on most people.
To OP - don't forget that we are a consumer society, hence, people are trained to buy shit and spend money before thinking: "well, I already have a majority of essentials around me in the house." This is true for the suburbanite or the avid hunter walking around in Cabelas. Marketing is like a warm gun.
Most people tend to not activate their creativity and re-purpose their belongings for survival gear, i.e.: plastic powdered drink bottles with screw caps - emergency med kit storage that is water proof, trash bags inside (3 mil) to waterproof your backpack if it isn't waterproof, keep two sets of plastic spoon, knife, fork, napkin salt/pepper packs you get at hotels or wherever - point being having backup utensils and extra tinder, etc. So the point is that if you look around the house, you will find many things for survival that you don't need to spend on.
My opinion is that survival depends half on luck and half on the ability to adapt to a changing environment, sans gizmos, I don't care if they make the first week easy, in the end we all go back to the essentials.
K.L. Davis
09-10-13, 00:49
There is no doubt that a lot of *basic skills* that most of us take for granted have been lost in the last couple of generations - and a mindset that skill can be replaced with equipment; we we see this with firearms, cars, and survival gear.
I have found that I carry less and less as the years go by... in fact, I find that I have been downgrading my pack for many years now - but the key thing for me is really this: what does survival mean to you?
Is it the ability to survive on your own in the wilderness? To colonize that area? Or to live long enough to get your butt home nose before toes? I wrote this for ITS a couple of months ago... and in a slight breach of etiquette I will link to it here: Redefining Survival (http://www.itstactical.com/survival/redefining-survival-simply-getting-home/).
To me, there are a certain set of skills that a person should have... while they may fall well short of being a pioneer; they ability to make a fire, read a map, sharpen a knife and many other things are just the tricks one picks up as part of life... unfortunately, far too many have been insulated from that life and now revere them as *specialized* skills.
You learned how to survive the wilderness and elements. All of us whack jobs are preparing for the total collapse of society brought about from the zombie menace that was engineered by the government to take all of our guns away in the aftermath of an enemy attack on our power grid following years of undermining our national economy. :)
however; most standard "preppers" are oblivious to this technique because they have no real world knowledge or experience to fall back on... they simply hoard technology and hope that will be enough... and in the end... those people will be the first to go because they are not self sustainable without their "stores"
it sucks to try and light a friction fire in wet, windy, cold, snowy, dark conditions... and its damn near impossible... but what if that is all you can do?
technology fails... knowledge and experience are the only true valuable resources...
however... if you have that knowledge and experience... there's nothing in the books that says that's all you're allowed to rely on... sometimes its ok to use technology... sometimes its more than fine to use a lighter or ferro rod... but the idea is to be self sufficient with nothing... as in... you end up in a survival situation without even a blade... and you can make do...
its called learn the basics first... then build your knowledge base on top of that...
i disagree to a certain extent. i agree you can't rely on technology, but the technology available you should exploit.
you just said that making a friction fire in wet, windy, cold, snowy, dark conditions is hard to impossible. i agree. even in ideal conditions it is really difficult and not always feasible given what's available around you. if you have experience doing this the lesson learned is typically, carry wet tinder. use wind and wet proof matches. those two TINY things turn increase you chances of survival. your fall off a hiking trail at dusk, the fall that broke one arm and badly sprained one ankle, while you were wearing nothing but "day hike" clothing, will make your night in the cold more survivable. if you were stupid enough to go on a day hike alone with no supplies whatsoever and you end up at the bottom of a valley, even if you knew how to make a friction fire with a bow and drill you wouldn't be doing so with a broken arm and and sprained ankle and no knife.
i feel like you're saying knowledge and experience are all you need to rely on. i feel like knowledge and experience should GUIDE your preparation. the mother of all mess ups is a lack of preparation in some regard. if you have knowledge and experience, but there was no technology acquired to maximize your chances of operating well under duress then that's not enough.
maybe you're saying the same thing, but i wanted to say it in a different way to be clear that there are things that the modern world produces that should be used by people who are concerned with being prepared for when bad things happen.
Reagans Rascals
10-31-14, 17:04
If you re-read my post you'll see that I was explicitly stating the "what if" scenario... if you don't have that wet tinder or the tech like you described then what?
You predicate your post on simply being prepared, but you cannot always carry what you need for every situation, besides the knowledge in your brain and the experience in my hands.
I specifically stated that you need to completely self sufficient without technology... and then add it as you progress in your skills for redundancy...
No one starts flying and strictly uses Garmin G-1000 glass cockpits, never knowing the basics... in the end you still need to know how to fly the plane and use steam gauges
You train and prepare for real world scenarios... not hypothetical situations where you can go "hmm well I'll have this and this and that with me"
Technology Dependent training is a crutch and sets you up for failure.... Fail to train and you are training to fail
If you re-read my post you'll see that I was explicitly stating the "what if" scenario... if you don't have that wet tinder or the tech like you described then what?
if you broke your arm, then what?
You predicate your post on simply being prepared, but you cannot always carry what you need for every situation, besides the knowledge in your brain and the experience in my hands.
do you train to conceal carry? what good is all that training if you do not carry your gun?
being prepared is a lifestyle. you make the emergency backpack for your everyday vehicle. you make the day-hike pack kit in case the cliff washes out from underneath you. you don't make decisions like i'll just go on a day hike by myself with absolutely no equipment.
I specifically stated that you need to completely self sufficient without technology... and then add it as you progress in your skills for redundancy...
the question i'm asking here then is when will you be totally without technology and why? why did you go out in the middle of nowhere with nothing? when your car breaks down in the middle of nowhere, are you without technology? when you go hiking or backpacking, are you without technology? you're manufacturing a scenario that is very unlikely, a scenario that purposefully negates preparation.
very hard men go into foreign countries among the enemy prepared with gear. even in lone survivor, he has a watch, a signaling device (gps from his radio), knife, clothes, etc. and that's after tumbling down a mountain multiple times, losing much of the gear he went in prepared with.
You train and prepare for real world scenarios... not hypothetical situations where you can go "hmm well I'll have this and this and that with me"
Technology Dependent training is a crutch and sets you up for failure.... Fail to train and you are training to fail
i don't disagree with training. you should absolutely train with varying levels of gear. train with nothing, yes. i tried it, what i realized was it sucks and you need to sort out your preparation to avoid situations where you don't have basic implements that drastically increase your survivability. can i do it? certainly, but why do i want to put myself in that position? i don't need to laden myself with all kinds of crazy stuff that's not necessary, but there are things that are difficult to do from scratch in the wilderness. provide and prepare those implements.
if you ask people who have through hiked the pacific crest trail, they use the minimum amount of gear. they have to carry everything while doing 25+ miles a day in some of the hardest areas in north america. ask any of them if they use a bow drill, even a fire steel. they use lighters, because lighters make fire. they use wet tinder (something as simple as vasoline on a cottonball), because wet tinders make fire. those two things weigh almost nothing and these are the most weight conscious people.
My 2 cents is, best thing one can do is go out to the wild and see how it is minimal gear. You spend as long as you can out there. By the end of that there will be something you wish you had. Get that thing and see if it helps. Rinse and repeat. I also suggest trying to have a backup skill for each item you have. Ex. Lighters, matches, whatever are nice to start a fire. Flint and steel might last longer and be more cool. But, one should have the skill of starting s fire with a bow and bark (aka rubbing two sticks together).
My 2 cents is, best thing one can do is go out to the wild and see how it is minimal gear. You spend as long as you can out there. By the end of that there will be something you wish you had. Get that thing and see if it helps. Rinse and repeat. I also suggest trying to have a backup skill for each item you have. Ex. Lighters, matches, whatever are nice to start a fire. Flint and steel might last longer and be more cool. But, one should have the skill of starting s fire with a bow and bark (aka rubbing two sticks together).
pretty good response. and it makes me ask, are we taking the words survival, and bushcrafting, and even backpacking or camping and blending them into some amorphous category?
survival, to me, is a response to an unplanned condition, or IOW, what you get when you don't get what you wanted. now there's nothing wrong with going out and practicing survival skills and a lot of that falls under bushcraft or primitive living skills, and I see no problem with that...
in the case of knives there's a great debate as to what actually is a "survival" knife, with the most simplistic answer being "a survival knife is the knife you have with you when you need to survive". that's almost become a punchline but it starts with a huge grain of truth.
a lot of companies are jumping on the bandwagon and creating "bushcraft" knives that fit the pattern the modern pioneers (Kephart, Kochanski, etc.) relied on for their daily needs, but it really helps to understand these guys never relied on one cutting tool, invariably having an axe and/or saw as well.
there's an elitism that's going on now that says "I could do anything that needs done with just a __ inch knife", and I'm sure that's true for those people, but again, is this the best answer when time and energy are your only resources?..
I think a survival knife has to do all the things I might ask of it, from fire building to shelter and food prep, in the quickest, safest, and most efficient manner. I think it bears saying that, yes, we could probably make a piece of flint (or a 3-4" "bushcraft knife) do everything we need but is this really the best tool for the job?
If you knew that the canoe you were in was going under in the next set of rapids, taking your axe/saw and all your other supplies away down stream, what one knife would you like to have with you when you dragged your scraggly butt up on the bank?
for me that would be a sturdy knife that could stand up to chopping, splitting, and scraping wood with an edge that would hold up to abuse. I'm not looking to carve delicate things, I'm just looking to bust open some wood to get at the dry center, make small slivers and fluff that will take a spark, chop some stuff to make a shelter, and settle in.
Fallkiniven has three knives listed in their "survival" category - the 6.3" A1 is their heavy duty general purpose, the 5" S1 they call a hunting/fishing knife, and the 4" F1, which they say they made specifically as a Pilot's Survival knife.
these all vary in weight and blade thickness as well -- http://www.fallkniven.com/en/shop/category/24/fixed-blades/survival-knives
just using these as an example, which would you choose for a one-knife survival situation?..
just using these as an example, which would you choose for a one-knife survival situation?..
I think another question that may deserve to be asked is why do people insist on using a knife where a small saw attached to a leatherman would do the same job with less flailing?
i'm not saying a knife of ___ inches is bad, but there's an insistence on one knife and that knife does it all. well does that knife do well at carving out a capstone for a bow drill? who wants to ruin their pretty $xxx or heaven forbid $xxxx knife making a divot in a rock? but in a real survival situation, it just becomes a tool and you do what you have to do with it, right? but if you don't train that way then how do you know what that knife will do to a rock? with a leatherman I just fold out the standard tip screw driver.
there's definitely a conglomeration of terms going on.
survival is supposed to be keeping you alive and getting yourself help/found.
if minimalist living is what people are trying to get into, well that's fine. but if i'm going to live for an extended period of time on hand tools, the first thing I would want to do is obtain a complete ensemble of hand tools.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYJKd0rkKss
that's what this guy from alone in the wilderness did. I don't consider myself better than him.
I think another question that may deserve to be asked is why do people insist on using a knife where a small saw attached to a leatherman would do the same job with less flailing?
I use the little saw on my leatherman but not for anything more than cutting the small notches in fireboards and other fine work. however I can, and have, done the same work with my knife, just not as pretty...
I have a couple of 7" folding saws, one of them a Bahco Laplander, considered to be a prime example of folding bushcraft saws, but I don't find them very useful except for constructing things that require finished ends. if I use a saw, it's probably going to be at least 21". less than this, it's just not any more efficient than a good axe, hatchet, or big knife/small machete.
but to answer your question, I can easily cut off a green sapling up to about 2" by just bending it over and pressing the blade of a knife into the outside of the bend, no flailing involved. and if the wood is dry, it's easier to just break it...
my opinion, but a knife is not replaced by a saw (of any length). they're two separate tools and while a knife can do almost everything a saw can, there's a lot that a saw can't do. a knife can be batonned to split wood and it can make shavings and scrape. it can cut rope, clean an animal and slice cloth, leather, and bark. you can use the point to drill through wood or bone, and if necessary, it can even be batonned cross grain to make very clean end-grain cuts for snare triggers. it can dig holes and pry open logs to find beetles, grubs, or worms to eat or for fish bait. there's a reason a blade is considered a must for survival where a saw is more for convenience...
i'm not saying a knife of ___ inches is bad, but there's an insistence on one knife and that knife does it all. well does that knife do well at carving out a capstone for a bow drill? who wants to ruin their pretty $xxx or heaven forbid $xxxx knife making a divot in a rock? but in a real survival situation, it just becomes a tool and you do what you have to do with it, right? but if you don't train that way then how do you know what that knife will do to a rock? with a leatherman I just fold out the standard tip screw driver.
first, by most definitions, a survival situation is something that happens to you unexpectedly and outside of your preparations. the idea of a survival knife is one that would allow you to perform all the tasks to survive in the wilderness until you can make your way back to civilization or are rescued. if you happen to find yourself in a situation with a full complement of tools, food, and shelter, that's not much of a survival situation, is it? that's just camping...
and second, I don't think you need a stone for a spindle block. I make them out of whatever wood is laying around and just dig out a small hole with the point of my knife. rub some fat or grease in there or pack it with green plant matter and the spindle does the rest. so yeah, I know you're talking about training with your gear, but if my life depended on it, you can bet I'd sacrifice the fender of my Maserati to grind or chip a hole in a rock.
I didn't mention $all$niven because I think an e$pen$ive knife is necessary, I just think their category of survival knives shows a good range of sizes and they do make darn good ones. substitute ESEE, Coldsteel, or any other maker that you think represents a good range of knives and tell me which single size knife you'd want to have with you when things go wrong.
a leatherman is a great tool, very convenient, but it's a compromise. I'd rather have it than not, and the truth is I always have one in my pocket when I leave the house, but it doesn't replace a good fixed blade knife. not for doing the types of chores I mentioned above...
there's definitely a conglomeration of terms going on. survival is supposed to be keeping you alive and getting yourself help/found.
yes.
if minimalist living is what people are trying to get into, well that's fine. but if i'm going to live for an extended period of time on hand tools, the first thing I would want to do is obtain a complete ensemble of hand tools.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYJKd0rkKss
that's what this guy from alone in the wilderness did. I don't consider myself better than him.
Dick Pronneke was a hell of a mountain man. he flourished in the wilderness and did stuff that would sorely tax lesser men but I don't consider what he did as survival, and I don't think he would either...
he went out to stay long term, he was well equipped with plenty of proper tools and things to care for them, and he set about making his life alone in the wilderness.
you'll notice he does most of his finish work on the logs with a double bit axe. he's got chisels, a big saw and a draw knife but he's an artist with that axe.
as someone once said (maybe Whelen or Kephart or one of them), "I don't go into the bush to rough it, I go there to smooth it"... that means they went prepared with enough stuff to make it easy and comfortable. that's not survival...
I use the little saw on my leatherman but not for anything more than cutting the small notches in fireboards and other fine work. however I can, and have, done the same work with my knife, just not as pretty... ...
my opinion, but a knife is not replaced by a saw (of any length). they're two separate tools and while a knife can do almost everything a saw can, there's a lot that a saw can't do. a knife can be batonned to split wood and it can make shavings and scrape. it can cut rope, clean an animal and slice cloth, leather, and bark. you can use the point to drill through wood or bone, and if necessary, it can even be batonned cross grain to make very clean end-grain cuts for snare triggers. it can dig holes and pry open logs to find beetles, grubs, or worms to eat or for fish bait. there's a reason a blade is considered a must for survival where a saw is more for convenience...
and don't get me wrong, I am agreeing with exactly what you're saying, but I am trying to play devil's advocate. if you have a leatherman which includes a saw which can cut through green saplings even larger in diameter than its length, without batonning, and the small blade within the leatherman can do basic cutting work, then what isn't very survivor about this multitool? i'm not saying the knife is replaced by a saw, but that a "survivalist knife" may very well be replaced by a multitool of sufficient quality. however, that doesn't seem to be sexy enough for tv.
first, by most definitions, a survival situation is something that happens to you unexpectedly and outside of your preparations. the idea of a survival knife is one that would allow you to perform all the tasks to survive in the wilderness until you can make your way back to civilization or are rescued. if you happen to find yourself in a situation with a full complement of tools, food, and shelter, that's not much of a survival situation, is it? that's just camping...
I very much agree with your assessment here with a few caveats. a big part of preparation for survival is to ensure you're not in a survival situation. if you've sufficiently prepared and made choices that don't put you in a situation where you're fending for your life then you've taken more than half the battle. for those 1%s that you cannot anticipate, then you need knowledge and you need to exploit what you have. hopefully good preparation has provided something for those instances.
to continue with your example of just camping, well if a backpacker goes into the wild and he has a 5 day trip planned, even if he gets lost, he can cut his trip a little bit short and get back on track. no one is the wiser. he has in his possession plenty of prepared equipment to sustain himself.
the most at-risk person of actually facing a survival situation is not the post apocalyptic male, but the foolhardy day hiker who goes out without any preparations, for what is supposed to only last a few hours. this person, gets lost, falls off the trail, then what? the bottle of water in-hand was finished hours ago. the shorts and t-shirt are sweat through and it's almost nightfall. well at least he brought his cellphone. if he has the common sense to find a signal and call in for rescue then he's just another statistic. another ill prepared noob who went out and got lost and the wildland firefighters and company go fetch him. can anyone here pose a more likely scenario than this one? especially for the vast majority of people who are nowhere close to doing anything that can be remotely considered as expeditionary.
and second, I don't think you need a stone for a spindle block. I make them out of whatever wood is laying around and just dig out a small hole with the point of my knife. rub some fat or grease in there or pack it with green plant matter and the spindle does the rest. so yeah, I know you're talking about training with your gear, but if my life depended on it, you can bet I'd sacrifice the fender of my Maserati to grind or chip a hole in a rock.
again, absolutely agree. while playing devil's advocate I am choosing situations that serve my point. yes, there are alternatives.
Dick Pronneke was a hell of a mountain man. he flourished in the wilderness and did stuff that would sorely tax lesser men but I don't consider what he did as survival, and I don't think he would either...
he went out to stay long term, he was well equipped with plenty of proper tools and things to care for them, and he set about making his life alone in the wilderness.
you'll notice he does most of his finish work on the logs with a double bit axe. he's got chisels, a big saw and a draw knife but he's an artist with that axe.
as someone once said (maybe Whelen or Kephart or one of them), "I don't go into the bush to rough it, I go there to smooth it"... that means they went prepared with enough stuff to make it easy and comfortable. that's not survival...
here again, my point was not to say that this guy was a survivalist, but he was a doing minimalist living. like him, if I were to embark on minimalist living, the first thing i'd do is gather up an ensemble of tools that would enable me to do everything I needed to do.
in the post apocalyptic world, I would not be without technology or tools. the premiere excursion would to be acquire tools needed to do what needed to be done. there would be no end to such missions or "shopping," if it couldn't be found or scavenged it would be made. there is not a realistic situation where there's not technology or no tools where i would be forced to live off a knife for some indeterminate period of time. that's fantasy.
and this is the rub, the only reason i'm actually bothering to even speak on the subject. people bother to buy fire steels and pack them up in these emergency survival kits or 5 days survival bags or whatever the hell you call them. but do they actually know that it's very difficult to use a firesteel to start a fire in wet conditions? do they know that for less weight they could have windproof matches and wet tinder like hexamine fuel tablet or wetfire or a petroleum jelly infused cottonball or lintball that will start fire much faster (rule of 3s), with less effort (calories) and more reliably? do these people know that once you start a fire, you can keep it going for days and you don't need umpteen million matches and if you were to douse the fire then the firesteel would be just as difficult the next day?
there's nothing wrong with having a firesteel as an option for an emergency kit, i have one in every emergency bag, but people are wholesale buying into this sort of survival gear--with or without training. firesteel a survivor doesn't make. firesteel doesn't even always make fire! only in certain conditions is it capable. you can literally submerge windproof matches, hexamine fuel tablets and the twigs you're trying to light and then pull them all out of the water and make a fire. that's the kind of reliability that makes survival easier and likelier. there's a romance to starting a fire with firesteel, i'm sure even more so with a bow drill. however, after doing both, i'd rather have stormproof matches and wetfire.
and don't get me wrong, I am agreeing with exactly what you're saying, but I am trying to play devil's advocate. if you have a leatherman which includes a saw which can cut through green saplings even larger in diameter than its length, without batonning, and the small blade within the leatherman can do basic cutting work, then what isn't very survivor about this multitool? i'm not saying the knife is replaced by a saw, but that a "survivalist knife" may very well be replaced by a multitool of sufficient quality. however, that doesn't seem to be sexy enough for tv.
nono, don't get me wrong either. I think the knife on a Leatherman is very capable for a lot of things and I'd absolutely use it I had nothing else. a few people make a lot of hay by showing how they can use just a glass shard to survive with but that's not optimal. I take a leatherman with me all the time because of the other tools - the knife is just along for the ride and I enjoy having a spare.
but the question is what knife is a "survival" knife and I don't think most people should choose that as their first option.
I very much agree with your assessment here with a few caveats. a big part of preparation for survival is to ensure you're not in a survival situation. if you've sufficiently prepared and made choices that don't put you in a situation where you're fending for your life then you've taken more than half the battle. for those 1%s that you cannot anticipate, then you need knowledge and you need to exploit what you have. hopefully good preparation has provided something for those instances.
to continue with your example of just camping, well if a backpacker goes into the wild and he has a 5 day trip planned, even if he gets lost, he can cut his trip a little bit short and get back on track. no one is the wiser. he has in his possession plenty of prepared equipment to sustain himself.
the most at-risk person of actually facing a survival situation is not the post apocalyptic male, but the foolhardy day hiker who goes out without any preparations, for what is supposed to only last a few hours. this person, gets lost, falls off the trail, then what? the bottle of water in-hand was finished hours ago. the shorts and t-shirt are sweat through and it's almost nightfall. well at least he brought his cellphone. if he has the common sense to find a signal and call in for rescue then he's just another statistic. another ill prepared noob who went out and got lost and the wildland firefighters and company go fetch him. can anyone here pose a more likely scenario than this one? especially for the vast majority of people who are nowhere close to doing anything that can be remotely considered as expeditionary.
here again, my point was not to say that this guy was a survivalist, but he was a doing minimalist living. like him, if I were to embark on minimalist living, the first thing i'd do is gather up an ensemble of tools that would enable me to do everything I needed to do.
in the post apocalyptic world, I would not be without technology or tools. the premiere excursion would to be acquire tools needed to do what needed to be done. there would be no end to such missions or "shopping," if it couldn't be found or scavenged it would be made. there is not a realistic situation where there's not technology or no tools where i would be forced to live off a knife for some indeterminate period of time. that's fantasy.
and this is the rub, the only reason i'm actually bothering to even speak on the subject. people bother to buy fire steels and pack them up in these emergency survival kits or 5 days survival bags or whatever the hell you call them. but do they actually know that it's very difficult to use a firesteel to start a fire in wet conditions? do they know that for less weight they could have windproof matches and wet tinder like hexamine fuel tablet or wetfire or a petroleum jelly infused cottonball or lintball that will start fire much faster (rule of 3s), with less effort (calories) and more reliably? do these people know that once you start a fire, you can keep it going for days and you don't need umpteen million matches and if you were to douse the fire then the firesteel would be just as difficult the next day?
there's nothing wrong with having a firesteel as an option for an emergency kit, i have one in every emergency bag, but people are wholesale buying into this sort of survival gear--with or without training. firesteel a survivor doesn't make. firesteel doesn't even always make fire! only in certain conditions is it capable. you can literally submerge windproof matches, hexamine fuel tablets and the twigs you're trying to light and then pull them all out of the water and make a fire. that's the kind of reliability that makes survival easier and likelier. there's a romance to starting a fire with firesteel, i'm sure even more so with a bow drill. however, after doing both, i'd rather have stormproof matches and wetfire.
right. he wasn't surviving, he was thriving. his skill were, more properly, "bushcraft" skills (even though that's a very overwrought term these days).
the 6P's - Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance... but who's going to be most prepared? not the urban joe who heads out as you describe above and suddenly finds himself in deep shit with darkness descending. but if he has some tools and a little knowledge, he might not make such a bad hash of it. in this case, something in the hand is better than nothing...
I'm one of the other kind of guys and I always carry a small PSK (personal survival kit) and I always want the easiest, most foolproof stuff in it. my preparedness is I double up on everyday essentials like navigation and lights, and I triple up (or more) on emergency items like fire, water, and shelter.
I don't put a firesteel in the PSK, I put lifeboat matches and "cheater" tinder like petroleum jelly cotton balls and fat-wood sticks. I also have a small magnifier in there for, you know, torturing ants and stuff. I use a firesteel as my primary fire source to save matches and I also stash a couple lighters about my pack and pockets in case I get impatient. :cool:
I carry a pot or metal canteen/bottle for boiling water and a Sawyer mini water filter. If I'm going with more than 1 other person, I have a Steripen purifier because it processes more water quicker than the other methods. I keep Aqua pure tabs in my PSK.
outside of my tarp or tent, I go a little overboard with my shelter. I usually carry a poncho or SOL "heatsheet" two-person survival blanket, and a combination of a couple reflective Mylar emergency blankets and clear heavy-duty trash can liners or sheet plastic (you can make a sauna out of a shelter with a reflective back and clear front to trap the long wave radiation from a fire).
so back to my original question, recognizing that you can press almost anything into service in an emergency, what size knife would you choose on purpose to be prepared for a survival situation?..
sevenhelmet
11-07-14, 17:04
I think this is a mindset thing. A lot of the whiz-bang gear comes from the simple fact that- face it- a lot of us are "gear guys". We love technology, and at the end of the day, I think that is OK. However, the problem arises when one tries to justify said purchases because of highly unlikely scenario A, B, C, etc. Nothing wrong with gear, I'm just honest with myself about why I'm buying it. The industry doesn't help- half the websites I see include ads about "Why the stock market will crash" and "25 reasons to buy another gun!". I came to the realization long ago that I don't collect guns and ammo to in case of "teotwawki/shtf/Hillary 2016" or whatever the tacticool guys are calling it these days. I collect gun stuff because I like it, and I can use it for defensive purposes in the 0.001% chance I ever need to. In the more likely event there is a local natural disaster or something, plenty of drinking/cooking water and about 72 hours' worth of food will get my family through 95% of what is out there. For the other 5%, well... I've gone a little beyond the 72 hour rule.
As for looters, well- go ahead and try ;)
I think this is a mindset thing. A lot of the whiz-bang gear comes from the simple fact that- face it- a lot of us are "gear guys". We love technology, and at the end of the day, I think that is OK. However, the problem arises when one tries to justify said purchases because of highly unlikely scenario A, B, C, etc. Nothing wrong with gear, I'm just honest with myself about why I'm buying it. The industry doesn't help- half the websites I see include ads about "Why the stock market will crash" and "25 reasons to buy another gun!". I came to the realization long ago that I don't collect guns and ammo to in case of "teotwawki/shtf/Hillary 2016" or whatever the tacticool guys are calling it these days. I collect gun stuff because I like it, and I can use it for defensive purposes in the 0.001% chance I ever need to. In the more likely event there is a local natural disaster or something, plenty of drinking/cooking water and about 72 hours' worth of food will get my family through 95% of what is out there. For the other 5%, well... I've gone a little beyond the 72 hour rule.
As for looters, well- go ahead and try ;)
I could not agree more. I think that 0.001% chance is worth being prepared. The definition of prepared is what I think gets skewed by fear and advertising. Having a firearm 22 or whatever is good "just in case", but that does not mean one needs to an arsenal. Be honest with yourself. A bug out bag is cool to have "just in case" or a cool knife whatever but really any knife and household things will get you through most scenarios. So, just be smart buy what you like, but be honest about why you are buying. Because in the end it only takes one bullet/bite/stab/etc to drop you and all that tacticool gear you got will not help.
I chose the S1 and love it.
I also have a Fallkniven Volcano... a lot of wow factor there.
pretty good response. and it makes me ask, are we taking the words survival, and bushcrafting, and even backpacking or camping and blending them into some amorphous category?
survival, to me, is a response to an unplanned condition, or IOW, what you get when you don't get what you wanted. now there's nothing wrong with going out and practicing survival skills and a lot of that falls under bushcraft or primitive living skills, and I see no problem with that...
in the case of knives there's a great debate as to what actually is a "survival" knife, with the most simplistic answer being "a survival knife is the knife you have with you when you need to survive". that's almost become a punchline but it starts with a huge grain of truth.
a lot of companies are jumping on the bandwagon and creating "bushcraft" knives that fit the pattern the modern pioneers (Kephart, Kochanski, etc.) relied on for their daily needs, but it really helps to understand these guys never relied on one cutting tool, invariably having an axe and/or saw as well.
there's an elitism that's going on now that says "I could do anything that needs done with just a __ inch knife", and I'm sure that's true for those people, but again, is this the best answer when time and energy are your only resources?..
I think a survival knife has to do all the things I might ask of it, from fire building to shelter and food prep, in the quickest, safest, and most efficient manner. I think it bears saying that, yes, we could probably make a piece of flint (or a 3-4" "bushcraft knife) do everything we need but is this really the best tool for the job?
If you knew that the canoe you were in was going under in the next set of rapids, taking your axe/saw and all your other supplies away down stream, what one knife would you like to have with you when you dragged your scraggly butt up on the bank?
for me that would be a sturdy knife that could stand up to chopping, splitting, and scraping wood with an edge that would hold up to abuse. I'm not looking to carve delicate things, I'm just looking to bust open some wood to get at the dry center, make small slivers and fluff that will take a spark, chop some stuff to make a shelter, and settle in.
Fallkiniven has three knives listed in their "survival" category - the 6.3" A1 is their heavy duty general purpose, the 5" S1 they call a hunting/fishing knife, and the 4" F1, which they say they made specifically as a Pilot's Survival knife.
these all vary in weight and blade thickness as well -- http://www.fallkniven.com/en/shop/category/24/fixed-blades/survival-knives
just using these as an example, which would you choose for a one-knife survival situation?..
I chose the S1 and love it.
I also have a Fallkniven Volcano... a lot of wow factor there.
a Volcano? wow, that's a nice knife. I don't think I could bring myself to get that dirty or scratched. just saying...
and yeah, my S1 is my lightweight one-knife choice as well. I use it more than I use either the A1 or the F1, simply because it splits the difference. big enough to do real work with the saber grind of the A1, yet small enough to be handy...
for me, the other larger and smaller knives are part of a system. I often carry the A1 on my belt with the F1 in my pack or on a lanyard as a "necker" knife. its full convex grind is excellent for light tasks like food and game prep, etc.
the A1 is a brute knife. it's thick and heavy enough that it can baton small logs into kindling ridiculously easily. it's also long enough that I use it like a mini-machete for clearing briars and vines and lopping off branches on the trail, etc.
now I'm not the guy who would willingly chop a 3" or bigger stick with a knife. that's a YouTube stunt and a tremendous waste of energy. generally something that size can be broken between trees or over a rock pretty easily. when I carry the A1/F1 combo, I usually take a 21" bow saw for the bigger stuff. and if I'm using the S1 as my sole knife, I might carry a 19"-20" axe for fire wood but I'm not felling trees with that and it all depends on the type of outing...
For all of your survival training watch: Nekid and Afeared - it'll learn ya.
Dang good discussion. I've spent my life outdoors. Never have had a job inside, I'm lucky. Dad always taught me that two things to have are a knife and matches. Now that I'm older I've realized I hate matches, they burn out or won't light. I always care a fire steel in my pocket and two knives with me. Used to carry a pill container shoved full of cotton balls covered in petroleum jelly. Keep an esse 5 in the pickup at all times along with a rifle and pistol. If the end comes tomorrow will I survive, hell if I know. If not in town and at my residence, yes for a very long time. 500 cows provide a lot of food for a very long time. If you drop me off in the middle of the Amazon, well I'd give it a go.
To me the most important thing is be realistic with yourself in what you can and can not do.
Attended the patriot tour in Bozeman last Sat with some friends, two of were ex military, both had been in the shit. For some reason I pulled out my steel ( nervous habit to fiddle with it). They were giving me a ration of grief of why I would carry that, was shocking that two men that had been deployed into battle would think it weird to carry a way to make fire.
I read a report some years ago that said in a complete collapse of society that 50% of the USA population would be dead in three weeks 80% in 4 months.
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