View Full Version : glock vs M&P vs XD
I see a lot of talk about the glocks and the M&P's but what about the springfield armory XD guns???
Are they not even close to the other two or what? They are the same type of gun with the same buyer-type in mind right?
I have never shot or held one in my hand so cant compare them with the other two brands but reading about the XD's it sounds like its a fine gun.
Any thoughts?
Anyone here use it as a duty gun?
Every XD thread ends the same. Do a search and see what I mean.
I see a lot of talk about the glocks and the M&P's but what about the springfield armory XD guns???
Are they not even close to the other two or what? They are the same type of gun with the same buyer-type in mind right?
I have never shot or held one in my hand so cant compare them with the other two brands but reading about the XD's it sounds like its a fine gun.
Any thoughts?
Anyone here use it as a duty gun?
AKDoug is correct. The guys here are anti XD. I think the Medieval Latin name Croatia freaks them out:p I recently sold anXD9 before shooting it. I got it for cheap from a friend leaving the country, but I do have an XDs45 which I love. I doubt if you get any real info regarding the XD guns here.
go here:
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/
XD's are so inexpensive that Police departments would save a TON of money even when compared to Glocks LEO program but I have NEVER seen a department choose an XD as their mandatory side arm.
I think that says a lot.
I'm a HUGE Hk fan for hard use duty pistols but the M&P & Glocks have been getting the job done well and reliable for a long time. Although both have seen their share of hiccups lately. (Hk hasn't)
If you just want a gun for the range, are on a budget and it's for non self defense, then the XD's can have a roll, I guess. My scenario would be, you want to own your first gun but you don't have a lot of money for the gun or ammo: You buy the XD and spend the extra hundred you save on the gun for ammo.
Used XD's and M&P's are nearly as trustworthy as if bought new but don't have that "new car smell."
If you have the cash, try out the Hk P30L. If you want or need SAO try the LEM.
If I have to carry a Glock or M&P I'm confident they'll get the job done but with XD's I think it's a crapshoot.
I see a lot of talk about the glocks and the M&P's but what about the springfield armory XD guns???
Are they not even close to the other two or what? They are the same type of gun with the same buyer-type in mind right?
I have never shot or held one in my hand so cant compare them with the other two brands but reading about the XD's it sounds like its a fine gun.
Any thoughts?
Anyone here use it as a duty gun?
This is new and exciting. :blink:
Yes, sarcasm. Several threads on the topic exist.
Good luck.
AKDoug is correct. The guys here are anti XD. I think the Medieval Latin name Croatia freaks them out:p I recently sold anXD9 before shooting it. I got it for cheap from a friend leaving the country, but I do have an XDs45 which I love. I doubt if you get any real info regarding the XD guns here.
go here:
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/
This is great. So on the fanboy forum you will get the straight scoop on the XD, but not here???
C4
Littlelebowski
09-26-12, 10:49
Shit, our Search is broke AGAIN!
Shit, our Search is broke AGAIN!
All part of the Glock/M&P/HK conspiracy, no doubt.
SpyderMan2k4
09-26-12, 11:07
I usually stay away from xd threads here because im very pro-xd, and m4carbine frowns on that. That said, here are my thoughts.
I love the ergonomics (glocks are great guns, but i dont like the grip angle or blocky feel). If m&ps were around when i bought my first xd, it would have been a way harder decision and may have leaned toward the m&p.
People complain about the high bore axis. It is a lot higher than glocks or m&ps, however people here rarely complain about the height of hks. People make a big deal about few departments adopting the xd, but i dont feel thats a measure of quality one way or the other (by that measure, everyone should be buying the beretta 92... i mean, the military uses it so it must be awesome, right? And the military is way more ahead of the game than local PDs). Lately everyone has been all about the ppq- if that doesnt get adopted by agencies, will it be viewed negatively as well?
Some people complain about reliability issues. Im sure theres some, as with any gun. Ive got 4 xds and theyve been flawless (i realize everyone says that and nobody believes it). Im 1806 rounds into the 2000 round challenge with one of them (part of which was through a 2 day vickers course) with no problems of any kind.
The biggest problem is the stupid striker retainer pin. The entire function of the gun relies on a weak roll pin. No idea why springfield hasnt addressed such a cheap and easy fix, but its nothin to spend a couple dollars on a spring roll pin.
There are other reasons for hate (a lot of it has to do with springfield rather than the gun itself, which i can understand). When the gun was he hs2000 it was way cheaper than when springfield put its name on it. Also, springfield wont sell parts, which many people dislike... again, understandable issues with the company.
Bottom line is they are a much more solid gun than most here give them credit for,and (as seen more and more recently) glocks and m&ps arent quite as perfect as some have thought.
Ultimately, all three are terrific. As long as you thoroughly put the gun through its paces to insure accuracy and reliability, they are all good choices and comes down to personal preference (in my opinion).
Xdtalk does have some very good info if its something you wish to look into more.
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This is great. So on the fanboy forum you will get the straight scoop on the XD, but not here???
C4
yes, unless you have something to add to the OPs question. Don't bother replying to my comments. The OP has the questions. :dirol:
SpyderMan2k4
09-26-12, 18:24
This is great. So on the fanboy forum you will get the straight scoop on the XD, but not here???
C4
I honestly think every forum has bias. This one less than others. While i like xds, im aware of their downfalls (and the downfalls of other pistols) and like to think im reasonably objective. Having been on xdtalk for a long time, most people there are levelheaded. I.e. they dont think every other pistol is crap just cause its not an xd, most realize its not a flawless pistol design-wise (again, the roll pin). While obviously the members are fans of the xd, i think most members dont wear the springfield glasses that are associated with typical fanboys and is a somewhat unfair assessment.
I realize people that have made up their minds on xds arent gonna change, and thats fine. Im not trying to change anyones mind (which is exactly why i avoid these threads usually), but having good experience with a number of them i wanted to at least share my thoughts for sake of the OP.
I dont say this in a negative sense, but youve got to admit its mildly entertaining to read the discussions on other guns that have problems. For example, the m&p, which has been around less time than the xd. If someone is worried about their m&p, most reply "shoot it. If it shoots fine dont worry about it." But even after ive put what i feel to be enough rounds though my guns to prove their accuracy and reliability, the same people would still tell me to trash my guns. (This isnt a knock at all on m&ps, i actually do like them a lot.)
Which takes me full circle... any pistol you get you should thoroughly shoot and test (200 rounds doesnt cut it).
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Magic_Salad0892
09-26-12, 18:25
I usually stay away from xd threads here because im very pro-xd, and m4carbine frowns on that. That said, here are my thoughts.
I love the ergonomics (glocks are great guns, but i dont like the grip angle or blocky feel). If m&ps were around when i bought my first xd, it would have been a way harder decision and may have leaned toward the m&p.
People complain about the high bore axis. It is a lot higher than glocks or m&ps, however people here rarely complain about the height of hks. People make a big deal about few departments adopting the xd, but i dont feel thats a measure of quality one way or the other (by that measure, everyone should be buying the beretta 92... i mean, the military uses it so it must be awesome, right? And the military is way more ahead of the game than local PDs). Lately everyone has been all about the ppq- if that doesnt get adopted by agencies, will it be viewed negatively as well?
Some people complain about reliability issues. Im sure theres some, as with any gun. Ive got 4 xds and theyve been flawless (i realize everyone says that and nobody believes it). Im 1806 rounds into the 2000 round challenge with one of them (part of which was through a 2 day vickers course) with no problems of any kind.
The biggest problem is the stupid striker retainer pin. The entire function of the gun relies on a weak roll pin. No idea why springfield hasnt addressed such a cheap and easy fix, but its nothin to spend a couple dollars on a spring roll pin.
There are other reasons for hate (a lot of it has to do with springfield rather than the gun itself, which i can understand). When the gun was he hs2000 it was way cheaper than when springfield put its name on it. Also, springfield wont sell parts, which many people dislike... again, understandable issues with the company.
Bottom line is they are a much more solid gun than most here give them credit for,and (as seen more and more recently) glocks and m&ps arent quite as perfect as some have thought.
Ultimately, all three are terrific. As long as you thoroughly put the gun through its paces to insure accuracy and reliability, they are all good choices and comes down to personal preference (in my opinion).
Xdtalk does have some very good info if its something you wish to look into more.
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First I'll adress this: the reason nobody complains about the HK bore axis is this... they were designed as a DA/SA gun. High bore axis is more or less the nature of the beast, granted there are DA/SA pistols with a RELATIVELY low bore axis. *cough*FNX-9*cough* But they'll always be higher than a striker fired pistol.
Second...
The PPQ, and P99 are the most issued police sidearm in Germany, from what I understand. And there are other countries that see them in police service as well. Poland being an example.
If somebody has information contrary to mine with sources, I'll take that back. But that's the information as I remember it. Source: here.
SpyderMan2k4
09-26-12, 18:34
First I'll adress this: the reason nobody complains about the HK bore axis is this... they were designed as a DA/SA gun. High bore axis is more or less the nature of the beast, granted there are DA/SA pistols with a RELATIVELY low bore axis. *cough*FNX-9*cough* But they'll always be higher than a striker fired pistol.
Second...
The PPQ, and P99 are the most issued police sidearm in Germany, from what I understand. And there are other countries that see them in police service as well. Poland being an example.
If somebody has information contrary to mine with sources, I'll take that back. But that's the information as I remember it. Source: here.
Very interesting, thanks for the info! That makes sense about the high bore axis for double/single. Never thought about it, but it does make sense.
This is from the fanboy site so its probably made up ;) but if issuing agencies are that important
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/leo-talk/153649-any-agencies-issuing-xd-xdm.html
Thinkin back on previous threads, i guess its less an issues of being complete garbage and more an issue with the little things that can be avoided altogether by selecting a different quality pistol.
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the xd was pistol of the year wasn't it?I don't remember the year or know who voted onit though.my father in law had light strike issues with his, I later found out that he lubed up the striker and assembly parts and thought it should have worked fine.:fie:
I've never shot one but it feels good in my hand.
Having been on xdtalk for a long time, most people there are levelheaded. I.e. they dont think every other pistol is crap just cause its not an xd,
:thank_you2: Thank you!
hi-5
http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/h/high_five-2495.jpg
yes, unless you have something to add to the OPs question. Don't bother replying to my comments. The OP has the questions. :dirol:
I think it is a mistake to think that.
C4
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/leo-talk/153649-any-agencies-issuing-xd-xdm.html
Thinkin back on previous threads, i guess its less an issues of being complete garbage and more an issue with the little things that can be avoided altogether by selecting a different quality pistol.
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Notice that there are no large SO, PD or Fed agencies in there. This is commonly referred to as a clue. In fact, most federal agencies write their reqs specifically so that the XD cannot be submitted. Why? Well their are many reasons. The pin is of course a weak point, but IMHO the grip safety is a big no no. On top of that, SA does a horrible job in the parts department and all around CS.
Most of the top professional firearms instructors I know refer to the gun as a "Bubba Gun." From what I generally see in training classes, this holds true.
With that out of the way, is the XD a better gun than a lot of other pistols out there? Yep, sure is, but I put it 100% behind the Glock, any HK pistol, M&P, PPQ, quality built 1911, Sig 226, Beretta 92 & Browning HP.
At the end of the day, if you like the gun then drive on. I just ask that you shoot it and run it through as many training classes as you can.
C4
I've owned three of them (all different models). All three sucked. None of them would run. Real pain in the ass. Typically ejection issues, sometimes feed issues. I only bought them because I belonged to the forum for a while. Was more concerned with being in the cool kids club then actually buying a gun that does what it's supposed to...good thing I got over that phase.
That forum is absurd as well. Or at least it used to be. I got banned for trying to tell people it was safe to put your thumb behind the slide of a semi auto to stop it from cycling. I also pointed out that such a task was impossible with an XD due to the grip safety (you have to use your other hand to hold the slide). Apparently that didn't sit too well with those folks. Showing those d-bags up was fantastic, however. There were a number of members who were CERTAIN, I mean bet their life on it certain that it was not at all possible in this physical universe.
I've owned an XD, Glock and M&P
It ran fine, but I didn't like the higher bore axis or the trigger.
But the real reason that I sold the XD was because, from the rear of the pistol, it always looked like I was staring at the back of Darth Vader's helmet. :D
Fire_Medic
09-26-12, 20:22
IMHO the grip safety is a big no no.
My first personally owned handgun was an XD Service 9MM. After the first training class with it it was obvious that the grip safety and I were not going to get along.
It was sold as fast as I could get rid of it and replaced with something much more user friendly.
FM
I've owned an XD, Glock and M&P
It ran fine, but I didn't like the higher bore axis or the trigger.
But the real reason that I sold the XD was because, from the rear of the pistol, it always looked like I was staring at the back of Darth Vader's helmet. :D
Now that is funny!
C4
I doubt if you get any real info regarding the XD guns here.
go here:
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/
This.
Heavy Metal
09-26-12, 21:25
I've owned an XD, Glock and M&P
It ran fine, but I didn't like the higher bore axis or the trigger.
But the real reason that I sold the XD was because, from the rear of the pistol, it always looked like I was staring at the back of Darth Vader's helmet. :D
I find your lack of faith....disturbing!
I ran an XD9 up to 8k before selling it. Only problem I experienced was broken striker retaining pins. Replaced with a better part and the problem was solved. Never had any malfunctions. Couple guys I shoot idpa with run XD9 and 45s with no issues from what I've seen at matches either. More than I can say if I compare my total experiences with the M&P and a fair sample size of recent Glocks.
The XD isn't for everyone, but in my experiences it doesn't suck nearly as bad as some would make it out to.
SpyderMan2k4
09-27-12, 09:37
Notice that there are no large SO, PD or Fed agencies in there. This is commonly referred to as a clue. In fact, most federal agencies write their reqs specifically so that the XD cannot be submitted. Why? Well their are many reasons. The pin is of course a weak point, but IMHO the grip safety is a big no no. On top of that, SA does a horrible job in the parts department and all around CS.
Most of the top professional firearms instructors I know refer to the gun as a "Bubba Gun." From what I generally see in training classes, this holds true.
With that out of the way, is the XD a better gun than a lot of other pistols out there? Yep, sure is, but I put it 100% behind the Glock, any HK pistol, M&P, PPQ, quality built 1911, Sig 226, Beretta 92 & Browning HP.
At the end of the day, if you like the gun then drive on. I just ask that you shoot it and run it through as many training classes as you can.
C4
I actually agree with a lot of what youve said... i figured someone would mention there werent any big departments there, but to say that there are no departments is false. Please expand on the bubba gun. Ive heard this a couple times and cant make sense of it. Only dumb ignorant non professionals would own one?
Again, the roll pin sucks and SAs dealing of parts is a weakpoint. Ive only dealt with their CS once but it was pleasant and fast service (they sent me a replacement roll pin before i knew better to put spring pins in.)
I also agree that the grip safety CAN be a hinderance for some. I personally have no issues with clearing malfunctions one handed and havent found a scenario where it causes me problems. For others it might. Again, with and gun, put it through its paces.
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AKDoug is correct. The guys here are anti XD. I think the Medieval Latin name Croatia freaks them out:p I recently sold anXD9 before shooting it. I got it for cheap from a friend leaving the country, but I do have an XDs45 which I love. I doubt if you get any real info regarding the XD guns here.
go here:
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/
XDTalk is a joke. Everybody on that forum jumped on me because I said that buying an RRA or Olympic Arms is a waste of money. Literally almost the entire forum was insulting me and calling me a "mall ninja" because I said BCM and Colt are better than Olympic Arms.
I actually agree with a lot of what youve said... i figured someone would mention there werent any big departments there, but to say that there are no departments is false. Please expand on the bubba gun. Ive heard this a couple times and cant make sense of it. Only dumb ignorant non professionals would own one?
The guns that small SO's and PD's authorize for purchase (or purchase) really mattes not. Most small SO's and PD's either make the officers buy their own guns (with nothing out of bounds) or they give them a $400 dollar allowance for one. With officers/deputies typically being under paid (or cheap SOB's), they buy the gun that saves them the most money. As an example, many LE folks around me use such pistols as the Ruger P85/89, WWW2 DRMO 1911 (free from the Govt) or some equivalent to that. :blink:
We all know what a "bubba" is. Typically someone with no training (or idea how to shoot), but of course knows everything & commonly like to pick up a 6 pack before going to the local sand pit for a Sunday afternoon of shooting glass bottles while enjoying a cold one.
The most informed firearms instructors (meaning gun guys) that I know want nothing to do with an XD product. I always believe this to be a pretty good clue.
I also agree that the grip safety CAN be a hinderance for some. I personally have no issues with clearing malfunctions one handed and havent found a scenario where it causes me problems. For others it might. Again, with and gun, put it through its paces.
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It is more than just clearing malfunctions. It has to do with the grip safety either becoming damaged or getting debris in there and doesn't allow it to disengage (seen both of these examples happen).
C4
SpyderMan2k4
09-27-12, 10:43
Originally Posted by Glock30 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1403211)
AKDoug is correct. The guys here are anti XD. I think the Medieval Latin name Croatia freaks them out:p I recently sold anXD9 before shooting it. I got it for cheap from a friend leaving the country, but I do have an XDs45 which I love. I doubt if you get any real info regarding the XD guns here.
go here:
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/
XDTalk is a joke. Everybody on that forum jumped on me because I said that buying an RRA or Olympic Arms is a waste of money. Literally almost the entire forum was insulting me and calling me a "mall ninja" because I said BCM and Colt are better than Olympic Arms.
While i agree the AR knowledge of the average member is lacking, thats got nothing to do with the fact that the site hosts the highest concentration of first hand experience with the gun the OP asked about.
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While i agree the AR knowledge of the average member is lacking, thats got nothing to do with the fact that the site hosts the highest concentration of first hand experience with the gun the OP asked about.
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To be honest, they go hand and hand and further adds to the "Bubba" stereotype. Anyone that thinks a RRA or Oly is a good AR is a moron. IMHO, if they have a preference for low quality AR's then that will follow onto holsters (Serpa/cloth), ammo (Tula/Wolf) and handguns.
C4
shutup&shoot
09-27-12, 12:10
To be honest, they go hand and hand and further adds to the "Bubba" stereotype. Anyone that thinks a RRA or Oly is a good AR is a moron. IMHO, if they have a preference for low quality AR's then that will follow onto holsters (Serpa/cloth), ammo (Tula/Wolf) and handguns.
C4
I don't think they are all morons, some are honestly just ignorant on some things. I bought a RRA for my first AR also. An XD was also my first handgun. I have since sold both and do not regret the decision. I don't believe I'm a moron, I was just ignorant on the subject of weapon quality. I now own a Glock 19 and talked my dad into his first AR, a BCM. I don't believe I'm smarter now, just less ignorant.
That being said, Grant is right that SOME of them are morons.
I don't think they are all morons, some are honestly just ignorant on some things. I bought a RRA for my first AR also. An XD was also my first handgun. I have since sold both and do not regret the decision. I don't believe I'm a moron, I was just ignorant on the subject of weapon quality. I now own a Glock 19 and talked my dad into his first AR, a BCM. I don't believe I'm smarter now, just less ignorant.
That being said, Grant is right that SOME of them are morons.
Ya, I am sure they aren't all morons. ;)
The G19 is the "thinking mans" pistol and BCM is one of the best out there so I think you might just be a genius!
C4
I just wish we could choose our own gun in the Danish police. We are issued the HK ups compact 9mm. A fine gun, just not my choice for a primary sidearm for police work. If I could choose I would get a glock or the M&P. As i wrote to begin with I know nothing about the XD's at all. Just thought they look like the two other guns and thought it could be a fair contender.
shutup&shoot
09-27-12, 12:54
I'm not going to bad mouth the XD, but i choose the Glock over it any day. I don't care for the grip safety and I like the parts availability of my 19. That is enough of a decision for my needs.
SpyderMan2k4
09-27-12, 14:48
I don't think they are all morons, some are honestly just ignorant on some things. I bought a RRA for my first AR also. An XD was also my first handgun. I have since sold both and do not regret the decision. I don't believe I'm a moron, I was just ignorant on the subject of weapon quality. I now own a Glock 19 and talked my dad into his first AR, a BCM. I don't believe I'm smarter now, just less ignorant.
That being said, Grant is right that SOME of them are morons.
Agreed on all accounts.
Grant,
I get what youre saying. For what its worth, about a year ago i strongly considered switching over to m&ps (largely from reading this forum), but i just couldnt bring myself to quit using guns that i do like that i havent had problems with just cause the interwebz says i should.
That makes sense on grip safeties. I know you and LAV are very likeminded in many regards, and remember reading him say if youve gotta run a gun with with a grip safety (im sure he was talkin about 1911s) to pin it. Outside of disabling a "safety" are there any downfalls to this?
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countrygunner
09-27-12, 15:47
Out of all the bad stuff I hear about XD's I haven't heard much about one blowing up. I can tell you that I hear about glocks blowing up almost everyday. The glock guys will almost always blame it on the ammo which I"m sure in some cases has something to do with it. However the same ammo isn't blowing up other guns like that but than again not many of them have as much of an un supported chamber as the glock does.
The M&P is a pistol I prefer more over the glock but than again it's got its drawbacks too. The trigger sucks and IMO is worse than the XD.
My point is any of these 3 guns, which is the OP topic of discussion, are both good guns in their own rights. They all have there drawbacks and fall short in certain places. In the end it's personal preferance.
I've shot the piss out of my xdm's and have never, I repeat never had a malfunction except when shooting lead ammo and that was my fault when reloading them. I did replace those stupid striker pins when I bought the guns and have never had an issue. I've also never had an issue with the grip safety. I mean how many ways can you guys shoot a pistol without gripping it properly? If you grip the gun it will shoot period. All the malfunction drills I"ve seen taught involve you gripping the gun handle just like you do when you fire it.
Agreed on all accounts.
Grant,
I get what youre saying. For what its worth, about a year ago i strongly considered switching over to m&ps (largely from reading this forum), but i just couldnt bring myself to quit using guns that i do like that i havent had problems with just cause the interwebz says i should.
That makes sense on grip safeties. I know you and LAV are very likeminded in many regards, and remember reading him say if youve gotta run a gun with with a grip safety (im sure he was talkin about 1911s) to pin it. Outside of disabling a "safety" are there any downfalls to this?
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Honestly, if you like the guns then drive on (especially if you have a lot invested in them).
C4
Out of all the bad stuff I hear about XD's I haven't heard much about one blowing up. I can tell you that I hear about glocks blowing up almost everyday. The glock guys will almost always blame it on the ammo which I"m sure in some cases has something to do with it. However the same ammo isn't blowing up other guns like that but than again not many of them have as much of an un supported chamber as the glock does.
Really? Everyday? Can you tell me where you live (so I can see it for myself)?
Professional firearms instructors (the kinds that see THOUSANDS of guns a year) will be the first to tell you that Glock's "blowing up" is really lie.
Now can a gun blow up? Yes. Is it more likely to happen in a Glock? Yes. Reason? There are TEN TIMES more Glock's out there than XD's. Is it most likely ammo related when it does happen? Yes.
The M&P is a pistol I prefer more over the glock but than again it's got its drawbacks too. The trigger sucks and IMO is worse than the XD.
Not any more. The new triggers are much better now.
C4
I don't think they are all morons, some are honestly just ignorant on some things. I bought a RRA for my first AR also. An XD was also my first handgun. I have since sold both and do not regret the decision. I don't believe I'm a moron, I was just ignorant on the subject of weapon quality. I now own a Glock 19 and talked my dad into his first AR, a BCM. I don't believe I'm smarter now, just less ignorant.
That being said, Grant is right that SOME of them are morons.
Agreed on all accounts.
Gentlemen with all due respect, I understand what you're saying, but can we stop giving people a pass for being lazy and not doing research? How hard is it to find the website of or posts from a former Tier 1 Spec Ops guy and his recommendation on firearms? Not very right now. Go find LAV's recommendations or Kyle Defoor's or Pat McNamara's or Jason Falla's or Mike Pannone's etc etc. Start to take a look at what all of those guys recommend and use. Let me see, Glock comes up a lot for pistols. You see Colt, BCM and Daniel Defense DI ARs. And when it comes to piston ARs, let's see, oh they keep mentioning HK. It's not hard to do the research and reason it out.
OP, I've run a couple of XDs. I don't have a big problem with them, but I've never run one dry and filthy either. I have run Glocks in that condition though and they were flawless. If XD works for whomever, I say rock on with it. My personal opinion is that given the choice between the USP you're carrying and an XD, I would take the USP. In fact, I like the USP a lot, so I would take it over a lot of other pistols. But that's just my personal opinion.
I see a lot of talk about the glocks and the M&P's but what about the springfield armory XD guns???
Are they not even close to the other two or what? They are the same type of gun with the same buyer-type in mind right?
I have never shot or held one in my hand so cant compare them with the other two brands but reading about the XD's it sounds like its a fine gun.
Any thoughts?
Anyone here use it as a duty gun?
sbn,
This is ridiculious(sp) huh! Creating an XD thread here is like inviting a fat person to an all you can eat salad bar. They don't eat anything, but complain about the food choices. They know whats on the menu, but they come in only to cry about the food.
I'll double down on what I originally stated
go to the site below or any other site that will provide any info regarding the gun in question. good luck.
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/
SpyderMan2k4
09-27-12, 19:05
Gentlemen with all due respect, I understand what you're saying, but can we stop giving people a pass for being lazy and not doing research?
Oh i agree 100% i dont give ignorance a pass. This day in age, theres no excuse to be uninformed. I dont think, however, that just because someone is ignorant to something doesnt make them a bumbling idiot or make their input on other things irrelevant. I know very little about vehicles but that doesnt make me saying "you need to change your oil" irrelevant. So, in that sense (to put it back in context), some people on xdtalk may know little about ARs, but i dont think that means their input on XDs should be discounted considering the amount of hands on experience.
I get what youre saying about instructors seeing issues with XDs, but theres issues with all guns in classes. The LAV class i took in july featured malfunctions from at least a couple m&ps and a few (at least 3 or more im sure... wish i would have documented) glocks. My sample size of 1 xd ran without a problem. Does that mean i think my gun is better than those at my class? Not at all. Most of the glock problems were gen 4 and extractor related, but heck, even LAVs gen 1 had a stoppage (didnt go into battery on the first round of the mag, i believe). Again, not even criticizing his gun, just illustrating that problems can arise even in the most highly recommended guns. It does seem they are brushed aside more often than xds though.
shutup&shoot
09-27-12, 19:08
Fair enough.
Oh i agree 100% i dont give ignorance a pass. This day in age, theres no excuse to be uninformed. I dont think, however, that just because someone is ignorant to something doesnt make them a bumbling idiot or make their input on other things irrelevant. I know very little about vehicles but that doesnt make me saying "you need to change your oil" irrelevant. So, in that sense (to put it back in context), some people on xdtalk may know little about ARs, but i dont think that means their input on XDs should be discounted considering the amount of hands on experience.
I get what youre saying about instructors seeing issues with XDs, but theres issues with all guns in classes. The LAV class i took in july featured malfunctions from at least a couple m&ps and a few (at least 3 or more im sure... wish i would have documented) glocks. My sample size of 1 xd ran without a problem. Does that mean i think my gun is better than those at my class? Not at all. Most of the glock problems were gen 4 and extractor related, but heck, even LAVs gen 1 had a stoppage (didnt go into battery on the first round of the mag, i believe). Again, not even criticizing his gun, just illustrating that problems can arise even in the most highly recommended guns. It does seem they are brushed aside more often than xds though.
All guns have moments in their design history where there is a "bump in the road" if you will. Neither the Glock or M&P9 (for instance) have an inherent design flaw though. That is the difference.
C4
SpyderMan2k4
09-27-12, 19:28
For most users, the design flaws may be enough to keep them away from xds and theres nothing wrong with that whatsoever. The weak point (striker retainer pin) is swapped out for a spring pin for a couple dollars. Cheaper than a glock extractor or a fitted barrel on an m&p.
I was thinkin a little bit ago about the grip safety and the possibility of debris causing an issue. No doubt that it COULD happen, but similarly, take a look at how long the 1911 was issued in the military. Odds are most soldiers in the field were in worse conditions than most civies are likely to face. I wonder if they had any issues (and if so, if it was ever documented) with their grip safeties malfunctioning. Not being a smartass, im genuinely curious
Magic_Salad0892
09-27-12, 19:34
The 1911 grip safety is fatter than shit, and there just isn't enough room in the grip safety slot for major debris to get in. Also factor in that it's steel, and will inherantly have less flex to make way for debris.
The XD grip safety slot is fatter than shit, for the skinny little grip safety. I can throw a handful of sand at the gun, and probably **** up that grip safety. Materials play a part in that design. IMHO.
Also, I have small hands, with long skinny fingers. I can't actuate that skinny grip safety without making it super uncomfortable to shoot.
Heavy Metal
09-27-12, 19:37
The guns that small SO's and PD's authorize for purchase (or purchase) really mattes not. Most small SO's and PD's either make the officers buy their own guns (with nothing out of bounds) or they give them a $400 dollar allowance for one. With officers/deputies typically being under paid (or cheap SOB's), they buy the gun that saves them the most money. As an example, many LE folks around me use such pistols as the Ruger P85/89, WWW2 DRMO 1911 (free from the Govt) or some equivalent to that. :blink:
We all know what a "bubba" is. Typically someone with no training (or idea how to shoot), but of course knows everything & commonly like to pick up a 6 pack before going to the local sand pit for a Sunday afternoon of shooting glass bottles while enjoying a cold one.
The most informed firearms instructors (meaning gun guys) that I know want nothing to do with an XD product. I always believe this to be a pretty good clue.
It is more than just clearing malfunctions. It has to do with the grip safety either becoming damaged or getting debris in there and doesn't allow it to disengage (seen both of these examples happen).
C4
Officer at the Roncevert WV PD was carrying an FN 57 Pistol because he was worried he might encounter someone wearing 'body armor'.
I am sure on top of it all, his ammo was the same crap sold to the general public.
The only way it could have been worse is if it were a Hi-Point.
For most users, the design flaws may be enough to keep them away from xds and theres nothing wrong with that whatsoever. The weak point (striker retainer pin) is swapped out for a spring pin for a couple dollars. Cheaper than a glock extractor or a fitted barrel on an m&p.
Again, you have to realize that you HAVE to change out that pin on the XD. It is common to get a Glock that has no extraction issues and an M&P 9mm (FS/5") that shoots just fine. This is the difference.
I was thinkin a little bit ago about the grip safety and the possibility of debris causing an issue. No doubt that it COULD happen, but similarly, take a look at how long the 1911 was issued in the military. Odds are most soldiers in the field were in worse conditions than most civies are likely to face. I wonder if they had any issues (and if so, if it was ever documented) with their grip safeties malfunctioning. Not being a smartass, im genuinely curious
Not an issue on the 1911 GS (as it is a closer fit to the frame) and have never heard of a single issue with it. Not so on the XD.
C4
Actually, you don't HAVE to change out the pin. What kills them is multiple dry fires without a snap cap. I changed mine out for general principle with an upgraded pin at 5000 rounds when I changed my recoil spring. It took me a whopping 30 seconds to change.
You probably shouldn't dry fire any striker fired pistol without snap caps. I know that there are rumors of breach faces on Glocks getting damaged this way and I believe that as much as I believe XD's have a huge issue with the striker retainer pin.
SpyderMan2k4
09-28-12, 09:09
+1 my xd45 had about 4000 rounds through it and countless dryfires on the factory pin without a problem. My xd9 had fewer than 100 rounds and equally few dryfires and it broke. At that time they all got upgraded. You dont HAVE to change it, but for as cheap and easy as it is its a worthwhile preventative measure.
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I work for a LE distributor for Glock, S&W, and SA. In my 2 years here, I've seen two agencies order XD's for duty for a total of about 40 guns sold to LE.
This month we've sold about 200 Glocks...
There is a reason why the XD's aren't taking off amongst educated buyers.
Actually, you don't HAVE to change out the pin. What kills them is multiple dry fires without a snap cap. I changed mine out for general principle with an upgraded pin at 5000 rounds when I changed my recoil spring. It took me a whopping 30 seconds to change.
You probably shouldn't dry fire any striker fired pistol without snap caps. I know that there are rumors of breach faces on Glocks getting damaged this way and I believe that as much as I believe XD's have a huge issue with the striker retainer pin.
Sorry, but I dry fire ALL my pistols (never broken a part). With that said, doing it 500 times a day will break something on just about any pistol, but we need to be able to do it a 50 times a week and not break a part IMHO.
C4
So my question is ( and I mean this with respect not sarcasm).
if the XD(m) were to do away or correct the grip safety and Pin issues,
would that make the XD series of pistols a viable defensive/hard use pistol? if this is not the only issue what inyour opinions would be required to make the XD series a legitimate defensive pistol?
So my question is ( and I mean this with respect not sarcasm).
if the XD(m) were to do away or correct the grip safety and Pin issues,
would that make the XD series of pistols a viable defensive/hard use pistol? if this is not the only issue what inyour opinions would be required to make the XD series a legitimate defensive pistol?
Most likely so. Some won't like the high bore axis and lack of parts and so so CS, but most of that is personal opinion IMHO.
Again, I don't think that anyone is saying that you cannot use the gun in a defensive roll. The question is, with all the better guns out there, why would you???
C4
So my question is ( and I mean this with respect not sarcasm).
if the XD(m) were to do away or correct the grip safety and Pin issues,
would that make the XD series of pistols a viable defensive/hard use pistol? if this is not the only issue what inyour opinions would be required to make the XD series a legitimate defensive pistol?
The XDm 9mm with night sights sells to an individual officer for $652.00
A Glock 17 with night sights sells to an individual officer for $455.40
That's $200 more, ignoring the previously mentioned concerns.
The XDm 9mm with night sights sells to an individual officer for $652.00
A Glock 17 with night sights sells to an individual officer for $455.40
That's $200 more, ignoring the previously mentioned concerns.
Yikes. M&P with NS's is about the same price as the LE Glock (FYI).
Can't really imagine paying an extra $200 for an XD.
C4
The XDm 9mm with night sights sells to an individual officer for $652.00
A Glock 17 with night sights sells to an individual officer for $455.40
That's $200 more, ignoring the previously mentioned concerns.
I picked up my M&P9 with TS, factory sights for $449. Didn't elect to get night sights as I'm going with a 10-8 rear.
I had an XD45 compact. Good pistol...shot the crap out of it with no issues. I wanted the M&P after doing alot of research. Do your research, ask people who are knowledgable, and go try them yourself. Also just look at what some of the most respected shooters and SME's are using. Correct me if I'm wrong, but many of them, Hilton Yam, Pat Rogers, Doc R, Kyle Lamb, Chris Costa, etc., shoot M&P, Glock, or 1911....might be something to that....
SpyderMan2k4
09-28-12, 16:32
The question is, with all the better guns out there, why would you???
C4
I think that this is the point gets overlooked on this site a lot. People will post that its garbage without merely stating this. I think if someone is looking for a pistol and they like the way all three options handle and feel, they may very well be better served with a glock or m&p for at least the lower bore. If the buyer likes the way xds handle and feel more than the other pistols, then that person shouldnt have reservation buying one (as long as they replace the roll pin).
Why wouldnt someone choose the other options? If i was just starting now id probably lean toward an m&p (havent felt their new triggers, so if they are significantly better then it might make the choice easier). I think xds are a solid choice, but realize it might not be the best choice for many. I feel the for me personally it was the best choice at the time and i see no reason to switch platforms until something proves to be a significant advantage.
I dont have a problem with xd's, but I would never choose one over a glock. To me the glock is the perfect storm of a pistol. Reliable, accurate, customizable, parts are inexpensive and easy to find, a monkey can work on a glock...whats not to love. I can see why some people dont like the feel of them, but I for one love how they feel in the hand. The only thing I like bettter as far as feel goes is the p99. That being said, due to financial reasons, all I have left as far as hanguns goes are glocks and I doubt I will ever sell those.
Nephrology
09-28-12, 17:07
I dont have a problem with xd's, but I would never choose one over a glock. To me the glock is the perfect storm of a pistol. Reliable, accurate, customizable, parts are inexpensive and easy to find, a monkey can work on a glock...whats not to love. I can see why some people dont like the feel of them, but I for one love how they feel in the hand. The only thing I like bettter as far as feel goes is the p99. That being said, due to financial reasons, all I have left as far as hanguns goes are glocks and I doubt I will ever sell those.
I find myself also financially constrained and with 3 9mm Glocks (26, 19, 17) and a .22 pistol I frankly have all the handguns I need.
I've taught many basic police pistol operator courses in my state for dozens of departments, and one does actually issue the XD. Its a very small seaside town, with about 10 officers. As far as departments go, Glock is king (usually the Glock 22), S&W M&P .40/.45 is next, Sig taking a distant 3rd (usually the 226/229). There are a few others; Beretta and HK occasionally, and a few departments still use old 3rd generation Smiths.
The lone XD I did have in my class performed well enough, no major hiccups I can recall, and we shoot around 1200 rounds during the course of the week.
I have been told the XD's have been improved a lot since their first release. That being said, I have not tried another one, or checked into it myself. I had an early XD357, that would constantly fail to return to battery and you would have to smack the back of the slide with your hand to close it. Not to mention, I think it rusted before I got home with it. I'm sure they are good firearms now, but I know the sales just aren't there, and I think the XDs and XDm's were brought about to try and respark sales.
I have a few Glock's, and it has always been my choice of a CCP, and I find it hard to go wrong with a Glock, just something about knowing it's going to work when you need it makes me feel better. I got my first M&P this week, I went with a 40 compact, and it is a great shooter. But I havent had it long enough to pass an opinion on it yet.
Depending on your wallet size, the HK P2000 is a great feeling, great shooting firearm.
Enough rambling, out of the 3 you asked about, take the M&P or the Glock, especially if it's going to be your only pistol. But that is just my personal opinion and we all know what those are like.
SpyderMan2k4
09-29-12, 17:50
To my knowledge the only improvement Springfield has actually made to them is that the early models had some kind of very below average finish on it and they had rusting issues. Before long, they got the hint, and switched to a melonite finish (also used by s&w), which is essentially tennifer (used by Glock) with a different brand name.
brushy bill
09-29-12, 19:51
To my knowledge the only improvement Springfield has actually made to them is that the early models had some kind of very below average finish on it and they had rusting issues. Before long, they got the hint, and switched to a melonite finish (also used by s&w), which is essentially tennifer (used by Glock) with a different brand name.
I was wondering what the "improvements" were as well...
The HS2000 and early XD marked versions suffered ejector breakage if you inserted a loaded magazine too firm. The top round would break the tip off the ejector, obviously leading to problems. Springfield, I've read, was responsible for an ejector design change after several warranty claims, etc. They also beefed up the striker cocking indicator slightly as well, only noticeable if you detail strip an older HS2000 and a newer XD side by side.
SpyderMan2k4
09-30-12, 17:00
Good to know, thanks!
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Recently got an MP 45. Nice gun, but it is not as soft shooting as I thought it would be.
My old XD 45C is reliable, and I need to shoot it side by side with the MP, so that I can make a better comparison. But:
- I have not heard of any XD model with extraction problems like Glock on an entire production line.
- I have not heard of barrel fit and accuracy problems in XDs like in the MP 9 FS line.
The "bubba" rep is mostly due to it not being a top police buy, and a couple of irritants:
LCI is unnecessary and solved by an obtrusive gadget. Never heard of it tying up a gun though.
The cocked indicator is unnecessary too and its inclusion seems gimmicky.
I think naming the gun "Xtreme Duty" is just plain stupid.
I do think it is about the best grip in terms of angle and size. If you use gloves it is much better than Glock, and a tad better than the MP. IN fact, the grip is excellent with gloves, with the trigger guard much better for this than Glocks. I have somewhat thick fingers. If you really have large fingers, Glocks are almost impossible with gloves.
There is SMALL possibility of slide bite - don't think anyone gets slide bite from the XD. The ambi mag release is well executed and the grip under the trigger guard is optimum.
I hear much about the grip safety, and it is unnecessary. But, to me it is executed much better than a standard 1911. I have to be very deliberate with the 1911 grip to activate the grip safety. The XD is easy no matter how I grip the gun.
It may be 'bubba-ish" because of the marketing and price appeal, but it is a solid firearm.
Recently got an MP 45. Nice gun, but it is not as soft shooting as I thought it would be.
My old XD 45C is reliable, and I need to shoot it side by side with the MP, so that I can make a better comparison. But:
- I have not heard of any XD model with extraction problems like Glock on an entire production line.
- I have not heard of barrel fit and accuracy problems in XDs like in the MP 9 FS line.
While they may or may not have either of these problems, how many end users do you think there are running XD's the way people run their M&P's or Glocks do, here?
Keep in mind with the Glock problems, there are more Glocks in circulation than all of the other models, combined. Glock owns 70%+ of LE... their competition is fighting over the remaining 20-30%. As a result, you will "hear" about more Glock problems than you will hear about others.
The fact that so few people who shoot hard actually choose to use an XD, is a clue worth considering, IMO.
I purchased an xd-9 service in 2007, put 1,800 flawless rounds through it, and sold it in 2008. It was my first firearm I purchased, and the first handgun I ever fired.
It was reliable 100%, but I didnt like the high bore axis. It really bothered me.
So I bought a 4" 1911....now I have a gen 3 Glock 19. The glock is crazy reliable, feels great in my hands, just as accurate as my $1,200 1911, and parts are easy to find and cheap.
My father still shoots and loves his xd-9 service.
Cant comment on the m&p other than the trigger sucking.
SpyderMan2k4
10-28-12, 17:53
As I've mentioned previously, while I own mostly XDs and obviously like them, I do try to remain as objective as possible, so this post is a continuation of that.
For the most part, my XDs have run very accurately and reliably. I have an XD9Tac that I was running the 2000 round challenge with until I ran into issues which I believe to be ammo related.
I had fired 1,806 rounds through it with no stoppages or issues of any kind. Ammo used was mostly S&B (probably my favorite "cheap" ammo I've tried FWIW), UMC, and some Blazer Brass. Even dry and dirty, it fed all of these just fine and shot it just accurately.
With two firearms classes this month and a couple USPSA matches, I needed a lot of ammo. Normally I'll buy a box or two of an untested ammo to try out before buying a case or so, but I was on a time crunch so I took a little bit of a gamble and bought two cases of Aguila 115gr from AIM for pretty cheap (it was the cheapest I've bought 9mm ammo in a while, so it was worth the gamble). Shooting it through the same XD, I had a FTE on round 1815, then a failure to lock back on the same first magazine. I tried some other ammo and it functioned fine, tried the Aguila some more, and more FTEs, and more failures to lock back.
I tried the Aguila in my XD9SC (which was clean, but not well lubed, but had shot the other brands fine), and I had a number of rounds that would not go into battery (no FTEs or failures to lock back through). Once I lubed it, it ran perfectly. Since I had a ton of Aguila (2000 rounds) and had a class a couple weeks, I decided to quit the 2k round challenge with the XD9Tac and lubed it. It cut down on the issues, but still had the occasional FTE and failure to lock back. Then I finally cleaned it (after over 1800 rounds, it was a mess!) and lubed it, and had no problems since.
While the XD may have "failed" the 2k round challenge, I don't really view it that way. I don't think it's a pass/fail kind of thing, but it's important to learn what your gun will do under what conditions. For my guns shooting Aguila, they need to be reasonably clean and decently lubed. Other brands aren't as demanding, but it's certainly good information to have.
As far as the performance in the classes, I ran my subcompact for Southnarc's ECQC (about 400 rounds in 2 days) and it ran 100%. Yesterday I ran the Tactical at a 1 day LAV advanced pistol class, and function was 100% (probably about 350 rounds but I didn't keep count). We did a LOT of shooting at 25 yards, and when I did my part, it was no less accurate than anyone shooting glocks or anything else (no issue keeping it in the black on B8s at 25 yards... again, when I did my part.
While I continue to be a sample of 1, I have run my guns quite hard with great success. In a continued attempt to be objective, I was sure to shoot Grant's worked over M&P. If I could see an appreciable difference, I'd have no issue reinvesting in M&Ps. While I only shot a magazine through it, I was very careful to pay attention to everything with each shot. While it was probably the most accurate gun on the line (a fitted match barrel and sweet trigger will help the cause ;) ), I was surprised that I couldn't notice any difference in muzzle jump than with my super high bore axis XD (which was what I was paying most attention to, considering I already knew it would be accurate and smooth shooting.) While it was certainly a sweet gun, with my very limited time on it I couldn't notice any real advantage over my pistol... other than maybe the RMR :D
If my guns crap out, or if I find something else that shoots better (which at this point I don't think will happen unless they crap out) I have no issue switching to something else. But until then, I've shot my guns enough that they have proved themselves accurate and reliable, and at this time I have no reason to switch to anything else.
TriviaMonster
10-28-12, 18:19
I have an XDm 9mm 3.8 Full Size. I bought it about 1.5-2 years ago. It's run roughly 4.5K through it of all types. ETA: My gun is at around 1200rds since it's last cleaning. I haven't oiled it yet, either. I am going to oil it pretty soon I think, but probably won't clean it just to see how far it goes. It's pretty dirty at this point. I will also add that it has shot 20+ different ammos, but I mostly shoot Sellier and Bellot 115fmj C.I.P. spec, which is around 1280fps (420ft-lbs.) I would say roughly 3k or more has been this exact ammo and all of the last 1200 or so except for maybe 80.
It's been a great gun and had zero failures. It is very accurate, much more than my Gen 3 G23. I shouldn't say much more, but it is more accurate, a good bit more.
The trigger has broken in nicely. It has a long reset, but it's very positive feeling so it's not too bothersome.
I did replace the striker retainer pin with a solid piece and it's held up with no problems. It wasn't replaced due to breakage, but rather due to prevention since I do dry fire my guns often.
It's a pretty soft shooting 9mm and I like the way the gun points for me, it's very easy to get locked in from a draw. I haven't had a problem with the grip safety thus far. I just shoot it like every other gun and my grip always seems to be fine with the safety.
Is it a Glock? No. M&P? No. Something different? Yes. Is my XDm a better gun than my Glock? Yes.
The design has some inherent flaws, as do most pistol designs. The bore axis is a bit high. The cocking indicator is still not very well made, but at least if it breaks it doesn't impede gun function. It has quite a few parts, ~64 or so in my gun, I believe (don't quote me exactly). The aftermarket has come quite a ways for these guns, but can't really match the M&P or Glocks (not really an XD/m design flaw, I know, but worth mentioning). The slide also takes a good amount of force to lock back, even after 4.5k on the stock RSA. The slide is still very stiff compared to my Glock 23 3rd Gen for example. There are other problems as well, just can't remember what else I don't care for. Oh yeah, the factory striker retaining roll pin breaks easily in some guns but I have seen a gun run with a completely busted roll pin and it worked fine for the rest of the range trip (about 200 more rds).
I still like my Glock and my XDm. I shoot both pretty well. I have been wanting a G19 4th Gen or a G23 4th Gen but haven't had any faith for the G19 so I may trade up my 3rd Gen G23 for a 4th Gen, we will see.
These days I'm not too sure what to recommend. I have seen Taurus' that run like champs and take severe beatings and I have seen M&P's that have broken a barrel, and my good friends G19 4th Gen that zings brass to the face like a slingshot. The only pistols that I think are sure things anymore say H&K.
What can I say, it's a mad world. :jester: You may get terrible Glock or a good XD.
G19 Driver
10-28-12, 20:22
Ridgeland PD in Mississippi uses the XD and the officers freaking hate them. They have been using them for years. I guess someone high up does not like Glocks. Before the XD's they were using Berreta's.
I did replace the striker retainer pin with a solid piece and it's held up with no problems. It wasn't replaced due to breakage, but rather due to prevention since I do dry fire my guns often.
What do you use?
I do think "high bore axis" is a bit overblown.
"Ridgeland PD in Mississippi uses the XD and the officers freaking hate them. They have been using them for years." Why specifically?
I'm glad to see some of you guys standing up for the "black sheep" of the pistol world. I've had my XD45 for 6 or 7 years now without any kind of stoppage.
What do you use?
Most likely Powder River Precision Spring pins. I just upgraded my 3 XDs with them.
TriviaMonster
10-29-12, 09:00
Most likely Powder River Precision Spring pins. I just upgraded my 3 XDs with them.
That's what I used. The PRP pins are bullet proof.
XDs are great guns. I had a 45 compact, and two of my friends still do, and none of the three have had a single malfunction through a few thousand rounds.
I sold mine in favor of M&P45s, but i have no negative opinions of XDs.
The fact that so few people who shoot hard actually choose to use an XD, is a clue worth considering, IMO.
That little factoid seems to be ignored no matter how many times you/we point it out. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't him think. :secret:
I don't own an XD, but I hear that the casings don't hit you in the face when you shoot them and they have better consistency of accuracy between firearms with their 9mm than some other pistols. On the other hand, my personal M&Ps shoot well and are made in the USA so that is what I will be sticking with.
TriviaMonster
10-29-12, 11:28
I think that sometimes things just get blown out of proportion. I try to base my knowledge on primary sources and first hand experiences.
I was at my local range a few months ago. There was a guy shooting a very problematic RIA 1911, about 1 failure every mag. We are talking 2 foot groups at 7 yards and his buddy is asking him for buying advice. The guy asks about an XD 45 and the RIA shooter replies, "you mean the Croatian Taurus? They are junk. Get a RIA 1911, after a little break-in they are Good 2 Go (he said good, held up two fingers and said go, not kidding) after 1500rds(!?!) break-in." Anyways, the conversation ends up being that he has a friend who works in a LGS and told him that XD's are just Taurus' made in Croatia. I am in the lane right next to them and I am just boiling now. Why is my gun a POS compared to his Jam-O-Matic? Well me, being Mr. Nice Guy and Mr. Decent Shot decides to see if I can help the guy with the RIA 1911 improve his shooting stance and grip a little bit. I shot a 5rd group in one ragged hole at 7yds (impressed yet???;)) and hand him back his gun. "That's a decent 1911, what is that, a Taurus?" Haha. That bugged him, anyways, I did actually let him and his friend shoot my XDm. I cut their group sizes in about half with 10mins of training. I am not a very patient person, nor a good shooting instructor but I did give them a good, local instructors name.
Now, when LAV or the like say that they don't like XD's for this and that reason, it holds water. I'm not gonna argue with first-hand experiences or knowledge gained through training and the like.
We would all be so wise to take recommendations into consideration when they are from informed, intelligent people. Heck, if I would have found this site before I bought my XDm would I still have bought one? No. I didn't know any better. Does my gun suck? No. No remorse on this one, it's been a superb weapon and hopefully will continue to be in the future.
Crap, if LAV came out and said, dump your Glock, XD's are much better, I would sell my Glock and get another XDm. And tell you what, I wouldn't be the only one.
I guess what I am getting at, is even though XD's and XDm's aren't the best guns in the world, I certainly think they have a worse reputation than they actually deserve. If LAV or others say that Glocks and M&P's are better, they are probably right, but I don't think they ever said flip a coin between an XD and a Taurus 24/7.
And before anyone says that my ONE gun isn't enough to determine anything, I have shot 12 different XD/XDm pistols ranging from the XDsc 9mm to the XDm 45 and others. I know it's still a small sample, and I won't argue that, but none of those were problematic in any way.
I would also like to add that I am not an XD/m fanboy. I own the one XDm 3.8 9mm FS and have no plans on getting any others as the current selection does nothing for me.
Hopefully this came out in an objective manner even though I used the word "think" a lot. And hopefully SA will step their game up and build a plastic gun that can be as good as they should be because their build quality, customer service, and fit & finish have been above average in my eyes.
I do believe that much of the bias I see against the XD has absolutely no objective basis. Even most of what I see here is assertion.
I respect whatever LAV or some other say, but I don't let it be the absolute last word.
Is the roll pin dumb? - yes. It the cocking indicator necessary? Yes. But as per my above there are several proven advantages.
I JUST don't hear accuracy and reliability issues on the errornet ANY more than I've heard for the "majors". First hand is the same.
I do believe that much of the bias I see against the XD has absolutely no objective basis. Even most of what I see here is assertion.
I respect whatever LAV or some other say, but I don't let it be the absolute last word.
Is the roll pin dumb? - yes. It the cocking indicator necessary? Yes. But as per my above there are several proven advantages.
I JUST don't hear accuracy and reliability issues on the errornet ANY more than I've heard for the "majors". First hand is the same.
And yet, the fact is that no major LEA or military unit has adopted the XD/XDM. It's not like LEAs don't change pistols, they do. There has to be a reason for it. My point is that the guns have been out long enough that they should have been adopted by someone, yet they haven't. You can argue that there's a bias on this sight against the gun and I would probably agree with you, but that doesn't explain why the XD/XDM is almost non existent in the LE/military world. Lack of objectivity on the internet really doesn't have anything to do with that.
Having said that, I'll say the same thing I always say; if it works for you, great. The two I've run were fine. It's not my first choice, but that's me. Apparently, LAV is not a particular fan of the gun either, which is fine, but you're the one shooting the gun. If it works for you, it does.
I am an XD owner. It was my first gun several years ago before I "knew better". Two successful 2,000 challenges with several classes with that gun for a total of 6,000 plus rounds, why did I decided to switch to Glock and HK?
1. Armorer support...Glocks, M&Ps, and HK offer CIVILIAN armorer support and certified armorer programs. I am a Glock and M&P armorer and will take the P30 armorer course next year. I asked a factory rep about XD armorer support and certifications...his answer? "That's only for LE and we have no intentions of offering it to civilians."
Strike One
2. Aftermarket support...there are several companies that only exist because of Glock and M&P. That goes to show the long term support and longevity of the system. XD? I can think of only one or two companies that offer upgrades and OEM parts.
Strike Two
3. Perceived design flaws...roll pin replacement anyone? Firing pin guide, grip safety springs, etc. I shot my XD until every all of the listed parts broke. My gun still fired, which was impressive, and then I had them all replaced. The "XD" in its current configuration has been out for a decade now...why hasn't Springfield changed some of these parts from the factory? The spring guide is plastic, not polymer, plastic. Going past a basic field strip is atrocious on a Springfield, it's like the Ruger MK series of striker fired pistols.
Will I get rid of my XD? No, I do like the gun itself and it was my first gun purchase so it does hold some sentimental value and I shoot it from time to time. Hopefully this helps some when choosing.
That's why I made the switch and this is coming from a dedicated pistol shooter with a few certs and classes under my belt including with the XD. Just saying.
T
It's interesting to see this XD thread persisting... most die horribly very quickly here, for better or worse. ;)
I shot a XD9 early on when I was picking a platform to settle on... the ergos didn't work for me and the grip safety seemed a little finicky and has a manual of arms all its own when compared to its most direct competition (mostly Glock and M&P). I settled on the M&P9 platform, but like almost every other gun owner these days, I also own a Glock (or two), among other things. :D I have heard good things about the XD heritage design, when it was originally known as the Croatian HS2000, so the platform is not completely dismissed by all the "experts" out there, but lots of curious things happened when Springfield rebranded it for sale here in the States.
That said, the OP, and I hope everyone else out there, has to realize that the internet... especially the gun community... can be a very biased environment while still being a good source of information. The onus lies upon the user to filter things out and make their own educated decision, imho.
If you search hard enough, there are some forum communities with persistent voices that harp on the "fallacies" of the Glock platform as well, be they real or perceived. It goes in every direction under the sun, you just have to sort out how to filter out the info to your own satisfaction.
Good luck!
Magic_Salad0892
10-30-12, 02:05
I've heard from Grant, and other sources that some LEO agencies write some of their requirements specifically to disquality the Springfield XD as a candidate for their testing.
One of my former depts did consider the XD at one point. The deal killer was the fact that the striker on the XD is "fully cocked" making it SAO as far as our higher ups were concerned.
And while our sample guns passed testing, they got kicked out of the running since we had a strict policy against anything single action only...
That little factoid seems to be ignored no matter how many times you/we point it out. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't him think. :secret:
There are PLENTY of erronet testimonies of people "shooting it hard" for several thousands of rounds without any significant problems and none in the BTF or accuracy department. Almost all negative comments on the XD are located here, and again, nothing but anecdotal stuff, and this sort of criticism.
No doubt that some PD's tailor their request for proposals aimed at certain brands. The government does this all the time.
If Glock did not bite me, that would be my single platform. I like its simplicity and overall, over time quality. But... lately there are plenty of legitimate questions.
There is plenty of aftermarket support for the XD now, and plenty of reports on its longevity accuracy, etc. Having dealt with SA CS along with a few others - they stand behind the product.
Again, I think the negative stuff is overblown.
If SA got rid of the roll pin and LCI setup, made the grip texture way more aggressive, it would be hard to beat.
Magic_Salad0892
10-30-12, 09:28
It's magazines still are hard to load, and are prone to unloading themselves when dropped. They're also harder than shit to put in the gun when it's in battery. The magazine release can be stiffer than shit. I've personally witnessed several XD malfunctions at the range from multiple people (I've posted those in another thread, just search my XD related posts.), there's NO civilian armorer support, they have awkward balance, suck suppressed, almost nobody makes a match, or threaded barrel for them. Sight options are limited. CTC doesn't make grips for them, which some people see as a disadvantage.
We should see if Todd Green would do an endurance test on one after his 1911 is done.
Regarding XD sights... The XD uses SIG sights, so there should be some decent variety there. Not sure about the XDM though.
Never experienced the supposed mag or mag release issues some have reported.
And Barsto makes a match barrel for the XD, as does Springfields custom shop.
Storm lake makes barrels too, not sure if they are match or not though...
Magic_Salad0892
10-30-12, 09:41
Regarding XD sights... The XD uses SIG sights, so there should be some decent variety there. Not sure about the XDM though.
Never experienced the supposed mag or mag release issues some have reported.
And Barsto makes a match barrel for the XD, as does Springfields custom shop.
Storm lake makes barrels too, not sure if they are match or not though...
I take my comments back about the barrels then. I didn't know that Storm Lake, or Barsto makes barrels for them.
There are PLENTY of erronet testimonies of people "shooting it hard" for several thousands of rounds without any significant problems and none in the BTF or accuracy department. Almost all negative comments on the XD are located here,
That sir is false. I have read negative reports, and or recommendations to avoid, various places by people worth listening to. Eg, not mall ninjas.
and again, nothing but anecdotal stuff, and this sort of criticism.
No doubt that some PD's tailor their request for proposals aimed at certain brands. The government does this all the time.
If Glock did not bite me, that would be my single platform. I like its simplicity and overall, over time quality. But... lately there are plenty of legitimate questions.
There is plenty of aftermarket support for the XD now, and plenty of reports on its longevity accuracy, etc. Having dealt with SA CS along with a few others - they stand behind the product.
Again, I think the negative stuff is overblown.
Personally, I have seen very little overblown actually. This thread alone shows that. No one says it's a POS, Keltec, Taurus gun. However, the general consensus by those with far more extensive creds than myself in that arena is that due to various factors (already covered) there's better choices and it's not considered on par with other choices for a hard use combat gun.
Shot a few myself, pin fell out of one while i was shooting it (after my buddy told me how great it was, etc, etc) and I handed it back to him, not too impressed. Yes, n = 1 experience, yes, could happen to another, gun, etc, etc. Just relaying the experience.
Second time, he and I were at an IDPA match, the grip safety went down on his gun (a second XD he owned) and it was no longer functional. I have seen all major brands have their issues too, but my limited exposure to the XD didn't leave me looking to give up say my M&P for one any time soon.
If it's working for you, rock on. I had a BM M4 when I came to this forum and knew little about M4s. Did the BM ever let me down in 5k rnds? No. Would it at a higher rnd count? I don't know... I did however learn what differences existed between M4s, listened to those with expertise in that arena as to why the BM was a subpar AR, and made the decision to get something better based on what I learned.
Failure2Stop
10-30-12, 10:23
I have had a total of 1 XDM in one of my classes.
It shot fine and had no issues.
I steer people toward other guns, but you could do worse.
Overall, I find the Glock guns to offer the best aftermarket support, with the easiest user-level repair. To me, as a fairly high volume shooter, this is important. What is important to you is up to you.
I just don't think the BM vs. Tier 1/2 analogy is close here. The TDP and/or Milspec on an AR platform is critical to the very platform. This is not a parallel construction on sidearms - at least not the XD vs. Glock.
I'll admit, my comment that all the negative comments on the XD being found here is a tad hyperbolic.
I just don't think the BM vs. Tier 1/2 analogy is close here.
Intended as example of 'you don't know what you don't know.' If you know what I mean. :D
The TDP and/or Milspec on an AR platform is critical to the very platform. This is not a parallel construction on sidearms - at least not the XD vs. Glock.
Can one not make a Milspec AR that still sucks? Milspec or not, that was not part of the example. Example was simple, I had a BM that ran fine (as others have) but learned there's better and why, and moved onto that, even though my n=1 personal experience with the BM didn't show me it's deficiencies.
Many would simply say, if it works for you, rock on, and leave it at that, which said also regarding the XD. As F2S said above "...you could do worse." I think most BTDT types would tell you could also do better...
As another poster said here, if he was starting over he wouldn't go with an XD (mostly from what he's learned here) but his experience has been GTG, and he's sticking with the XD he's got.
I'll admit, my comment that all the negative comments on the XD being found here is a tad hyperbolic.
Nahhhhhhh. :D
The high bore axis is a major factor why serious competition shooters avoid them - it hinders faster follow-ups. I'm sure someone is going to come along and say "technique can overcome this", but the truth is technique can help counteract it, but it won't enable you to shoot it as fast as you'd be able to make follow-up shots with a pistol that has a lower bore axis. There are a ton of Glock and M&P production class shooters for a reason, and it ain't price. It is a stupid expensive sport to begin with.
SpyderMan2k4
10-30-12, 17:19
The high bore axis is a major factor why serious competition shooters avoid them - it hinders faster follow-ups. I'm sure someone is going to come along and say "technique can overcome this", but the truth is technique can help counteract it, but it won't enable you to shoot it as fast as you'd be able to make follow-up shots with a pistol that has a lower bore axis. There are a ton of Glock and M&P production class shooters for a reason, and it ain't price. It is a stupid expensive sport to begin with.
Im starting to think more and more that the high bore axis and added muzzle flip is way overblown. Ive tried to find it and i simply cannot. Ive shot my xd right next to glocks and cant see a difference. Im not a GM, but neither are the other 99.99% of shooters out there.
Ive felt no difference with the m&p. People make a big deal about it, then brush it aside for guns like hks or the ppq.
Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2
That the PPQ and SIG aren't there is a function of this high bore axis? Likely - otherwise, they are top notch guns (OK... older SIG).
I'd take a PPQ to combat anyday, with high bore axis and all, and learn to train through it. (But, I am a tad leery of the BIG slide lock. With my 'luck', I'd get premature slide lock at the wrong time). But my point is for a combat backup, not a competition gun, I'd be fine with it.
I do LIKE my G19 Gen 4. Follow ups are easy and it shoots like a pop gun. But because of the low bore axis, I get Glock bite, and a GFA is on for this. But this makes shooting with gloves hard, unless they are pretty thin - so for ME, it could make sense to go another route.
A good 75% of the officers that i have seen here in West Michigan use the XD and XDM, especially the Sheriff's Deputies. Theyre not super cool tactical ninjas, but they seem to like them as do I.
My friend, a Marine Sergeant, Marksmanship Instructor, and local police officer, loves his XD40 which has been through 8000+ rounds since he got it right when they came out. It is his primary duty weapon still, and has never suffered a malfunction.
That said, I was shooting with him once in AZ, and at the end of the session, he went to break his weapon down to clean it, but could not disassemble it, as the slide would not come off. Upon inspection, we discovered that the ejector was sheared in half. He had not cleaned it for a bit, so who knows how long it was broken, and yet it still functioned 100%.
He sent the weapon to Springfield and they repaired it and returned it within a week.
All of my experiences with the XD line has been positive. I still prefer the M&P for ergonomic reasons, and because it is US made. I am also big on thumb safeties. If the M&P did not exist, i would still carry and XD45.
SpyderMan2k4
10-30-12, 17:46
I do believe higher bore axis i necessary for design and function for da/sa such as the hk. I completely agree that with the ppq being a combat handgun and not a competition pistol, even if one can detect additional muzzle flip, the difference will be minimal in combat situations. Will a bad guy notice a follow up shot thats .05 faster? A shot timer on a long stage with 15 splits, sure a competitor CAN pick up some time, but i dont think that small of an improvement (if there is any) would be noticeable in a real world situation.
WickedWillis
10-30-12, 17:55
The first Handgun I owned was a Gen 3 Glock 22. Hated it. The .40 was too snappy, follow up shots were tough and I just really didnt feel comfortable at all If i had to defend myself with it. I sold it to a friend and bought a Springfield armory XDM in 9mm. The gun functioned well, but I was not accurate with it at all. I tried changing my stance, my hand placement and i just could never get good with it. I went to my local store and rented several guns to see what fit me best. I decided to shoot the FN FNP .45 and the Glock 21 Gen 3 (thought id give glock another shot) They both shot and felt extremely well, but I was driving nails with the Glock. For me that was it. After 100 rounds through both I traded my XDM in straight across for a Gen 4 GLock 21. Its all about personal preference in my opinion. I love the M&P's and I enjoyed the XDM I just did not feel i was effective with them. Now the Glock grip angle just feels natural to me. I own the 21 and a 26 or Concealed carry, and am looking at buying a Gen 4 19 (my personal favorite Glock) but when someone asks me what handgun they should buy I always tell them dont waste money and time like I did, go out and shoot a few and buy the one that fits you the best and that you are confident with.
SpyderMan2k4
10-30-12, 19:09
As another poster said here, if he was starting over he wouldn't go with an XD (mostly from what he's learned here) but his experience has been GTG, and he's sticking with the XD he's got.
^ this was me... mostly. When i bought my first handgun, i wanted a reliable, high capacity, reasonable light (polymer) pistol with a consistent trigger (no da/sa). I was pretty sold on glock (cause they fit the profile), even though having shot my brothers and didnt like the grip (angle or blockiness). I couldnt shoot it for crap. Then i handled and shot an xd and liked the grip much better and shot it much better. This was a few years before m&ps came out.
If m&ps were out at that point, id have given them a hard look. Having shot a worked over m&p right after shooting my xd recently, i really wasnt blown away. It was sweet shooting and i liked it, but my xd is also sweet shooting. The m&p didnt knock my socks off- and believe me, i wanted it to.
If i were starting from scratch today knowing what i know now (which is more than even earlier in this thread), id give the ppq a hard look, and from there its a tossup. The xd has the roll pin problem, m&p has the accuracy problem, and glock as the brass to the face problem. None are a guarantee on every pistol put out, all have potential fixes, and all can be accurate and reliable.
^ this was me... mostly. When i bought my first handgun, i wanted a reliable, high capacity, reasonable light (polymer) pistol with a consistent trigger (no da/sa). I was pretty sold on glock (cause they fit the profile), even though having shot my brothers and didnt like the grip (angle or blockiness). I couldnt shoot it for crap. Then i handled and shot an xd and liked the grip much better and shot it much better. This was a few years before m&ps came out.
If m&ps were out at that point, id have given them a hard look. Having shot a worked over m&p right after shooting my xd recently, i really wasnt blown away. It was sweet shooting and i liked it, but my xd is also sweet shooting. The m&p didnt knock my socks off- and believe me, i wanted it to.
If i were starting from scratch today knowing what i know now (which is more than even earlier in this thread), id give the ppq a hard look, and from there its a tossup. The xd has the roll pin problem, m&p has the accuracy problem,
One model in one caliber only and not all of them. My FS9 was fine as were many others. Via improved trigger via APEX, M&P was the first plastic wonder pistol to get me away from my beloved 1911s.
The more I read and the more I consider it, I do think the XD is a good pistol in 9mm. No known (systematic) issues, good grip, accurate, etc. You can even file off the slide stop lever or repalce with a smaller one. Aftermarket is decent, and you can replace the stupid roll pin for dollars. Every SC 9mm I pick up has a VERY good trigger. Trigger jobs are doable. The thing that bugs me the most is the extractor changeout. Other than that, they seem fairly bullet proof, and the grip on them is the best available for me other than the PPQ.
I think the PPQ is a better gun, and if not for the BIG slide lever, I wouldn't look elsewhere.
But, I can get a MP 9mm for a terribly good price, and that may be my next purchase.
I only have an XD in .45, and I don't drink XD cool aide. I couldn't pass up a G19 sized .45 with a perfect grip for me, and 10 rounds.
SpyderMan2k4
10-31-12, 17:32
One model in one caliber only and not all of them.
True... it just happens to be to most popular model in the most popular caliber.
While not all of them are inaccurate, not all glocks will throw brass in the face, and not all xds will break their roll pins
True... it just happens to be to most popular model in the most popular caliber.
While not all of them are inaccurate, not all glocks will throw brass in the face, and not all xds will break their roll pins
Are you sure?! :ph34r::D:ph34r:
ComeNTakeIt
11-01-12, 08:34
I own an XD9 service, shot both XD9 & .40 and Glock (23) and loved both. Liked the grip of the XD a little better, but wouldnt pass up a chance to own a glock. Have had no issues with the XD through 1000+ rounds, with all original parts.
Plenty of people shoot and dry fire with no roll pin breakage. If you want insurance you buy one from Springer.
I'd be straight Glock, except for the Glock Bite. But, maybe my hands are weird - the XD angle and shape are the best for me outside of the PPQ.
Nephrology
11-01-12, 12:59
Plenty of people shoot and dry fire with no roll pin breakage. If you want insurance you buy one from Springer.
I'd be straight Glock, except for the Glock Bite. But, maybe my hands are weird - the XD angle and shape are the best for me outside of the PPQ.
Grip Force Adaptor
TriviaMonster
11-01-12, 16:10
I have actually been looking into the grip force adapter also. I have a few questions though. I too am a victim of the occasional slide bite from my G23 3rd Gen.
1. Does the GFA raise the bore axis and increase felt recoil?
2. Does it add much thickness to the backstrap? I have seen people file it down in certain areas but I always wondered about how much girth it would add.
3. I plan on having a stippling job done and have considered just having an extended beavertail added. Is the extended beavertail worth the extra cost over a GFA?
And for the sake of staying on topic, I never really cared for the M&P. I have about 1K rounds through a couple different FS 9s and found that the trigger bugged me. The lower part pivoting from the top half just feels strange, on top of the M&Ps having a crummy trigger to start (samples I shot, anyways). The pivoting trigger makes it feel sloppy or something, IDK. I also think the gun needs much more texturing than it comes with stock. I haven't tried an M&P with an APEX kit, so that may change one day. I also prefer to carry a gun a bit smaller than the FS, yet bigger than the Compact. I think the G19/23 size is damn near perfect for a compact CCW while retaining excellent shoot-ability.
I did like the slide serrations which give a good, positive purchase. I also like the rotating take down lever, similar to my XDm. I much prefer the rotating take down lever to the Glock slide lock tabs which are very difficult to manipulate and piss me off. I will be getting extended versions for sure. I also like the M&Ps stock sights compared with the Glocks plastic versions. And I will say that the mag release and the extended beavertail are very well done. And last but not least, but actually probably least, I like the way the M&P looks except for the backstrap, it doesn't follow the lines of the gun and it looks out of place.
And, I know it's a little stupid still, but I don't love S&W as a company due to the whole deal they were involved in many moons ago. That plays a very small role in my choices but I would be lying if I said it didn't bug me just a touch.
I've owned all three...
1) M&P
2) Glock (close second)
3) XD (distant third)
I've owned Glocks and M&P's for years now, the XD lasted 2 months.
Nephrology
11-01-12, 20:49
I have actually been looking into the grip force adapter also. I have a few questions though. I too am a victim of the occasional slide bite from my G23 3rd Gen.
1. Does the GFA raise the bore axis and increase felt recoil?
2. Does it add much thickness to the backstrap? I have seen people file it down in certain areas but I always wondered about how much girth it would add.
3. I plan on having a stippling job done and have considered just having an extended beavertail added. Is the extended beavertail worth the extra cost over a GFA?
And for the sake of staying on topic, I never really cared for the M&P. I have about 1K rounds through a couple different FS 9s and found that the trigger bugged me. The lower part pivoting from the top half just feels strange, on top of the M&Ps having a crummy trigger to start (samples I shot, anyways). The pivoting trigger makes it feel sloppy or something, IDK. I also think the gun needs much more texturing than it comes with stock. I haven't tried an M&P with an APEX kit, so that may change one day. I also prefer to carry a gun a bit smaller than the FS, yet bigger than the Compact. I think the G19/23 size is damn near perfect for a compact CCW while retaining excellent shoot-ability.
I did like the slide serrations which give a good, positive purchase. I also like the rotating take down lever, similar to my XDm. I much prefer the rotating take down lever to the Glock slide lock tabs which are very difficult to manipulate and piss me off. I will be getting extended versions for sure. I also like the M&Ps stock sights compared with the Glocks plastic versions. And I will say that the mag release and the extended beavertail are very well done. And last but not least, but actually probably least, I like the way the M&P looks except for the backstrap, it doesn't follow the lines of the gun and it looks out of place.
And, I know it's a little stupid still, but I don't love S&W as a company due to the whole deal they were involved in many moons ago. That plays a very small role in my choices but I would be lying if I said it didn't bug me just a touch.
No, no, and maybe. Depends on the price. Reversible modifications can be nice sometimes for resale value if you care about that.
XD's are so inexpensive that Police departments would save a TON of money even when compared to Glocks LEO program but I have NEVER seen a department choose an XD as their mandatory side arm.
I think that says a lot.
My buddy that works for the St. Johns county (St. Augustine FL) Sheriff's office told me their SWAT Team just switched to the XD in .40S&W.
They issued him, a regular deputy, an HK USP45...:eek:
He recently switched to a Glock 22 as he prefered it over the HK.
i think the fact that this thread is still going is a testimony that people are so stubborn. :) ..lets hope they have that same stubbornness with their XD's if they ever need it for SD.
Almost any modern pistol can do well at a static range plinking. If that's your only need then I think there are worse guns to own.
On the GFA:
Keep in mind I have avg to large hands with somewhat thick web and fingers. I 'need' the GFA because of the fat web, and the slide bite. It does EXTEND the trigger reach. With bare hands, it makes the Glock fine for me, eliminates the hump, and allows a very good grip. It even spreads recoil a tad because of the better angle.
BUT - if I wear WINTER shooting gloves, it makes it hard to shoot - this IS a negative. The best thing for me would be to get a grip reduction AND beavertail. This ain't cheap, but I may do it someday. Glocks are just NOT the best 'winter guns' as if you wear a tad thicker gloves, the trigger is a bit hard to manipulate. The trigger guard is a little small.
I think it is plain gross ignorance to relegate the XD to only a "static range gun', and not trust it for serious use. That is just plain dumb. The more I shoot it, the more I realize how good the grip is, and how well the mag release is executed. Because plenty of 'bubbas' own them, does not make them less robust and reliable - and perhaps decently accurate.
With winter style gloves, they are easier to handle than Glocks by far, and have an edge on the MP.
Wow, this thread is really becoming epic so I guess I may as well throw my fuel on this fire as well. Currently, I own an M&P45, Glock 21, XD-45 Tactical and several other .45 ACP handguns as well. Really, you aren't going to go wrong with any of them. I did have a S&W SW99 in .45 ACP a few years ago and yes, with this one (at least the one I had) you have a pretty good chance of getting an inaccurate dog with a crappy trigger and weird ergonomics but that's been the only .45 I had that I didn't care for. In regards to the lower bore axis turning in faster split times, yes, there is a bit of truth to this and going on a shot timer head to head with pistols like my USP-45F, my Glock DID put out a faster split time! How much, you ask? Well, about .02 to .03 seconds faster. By the numbers, lower bore axis does produce faster times but the difference is so small that it's negligable outside of IPSC types that are competing at that level that this may make a real difference in their sport.
Back to the topic of the XD, yes, the factory trigger trigger sucks so mine has seen a Springer update and while it didn't need it even after the thousands of rounds it's seen, I replaced the striker retaining pin just as an preventive measure against breaking. As far as not being allowed by a lot of police agencies, I have a hunch that it's the single action design that a lot of departments aren't willing to accept. However, with the M&P also being a single action design as well, this may open the door to more XDs being accepted since the M&P is in pretty wide use as well. The ergonomics are better than the Glock especially in fitting more hand sizes and with Glock having issues with their later gen3 and gen 4 models (won't even consider buying an Obama era Glock) I don't think it's a really bad alternative. Like I said earlier, you really aren't going to go wrong with any of them so it all boils down to personal preference. As far as who is using what, keep in mind that the majority of troops in the field were still using bolt action rifles during WWII when we were using the Garand so really, I don't care who's using what. I'll just stick to using what works for me. :)
Nephrology
11-03-12, 15:30
On the GFA:
Keep in mind I have avg to large hands with somewhat thick web and fingers. I 'need' the GFA because of the fat web, and the slide bite. It does EXTEND the trigger reach. With bare hands, it makes the Glock fine for me, eliminates the hump, and allows a very good grip. It even spreads recoil a tad because of the better angle.
BUT - if I wear WINTER shooting gloves, it makes it hard to shoot - this IS a negative. The best thing for me would be to get a grip reduction AND beavertail. This ain't cheap, but I may do it someday. Glocks are just NOT the best 'winter guns' as if you wear a tad thicker gloves, the trigger is a bit hard to manipulate. The trigger guard is a little small.
I think it is plain gross ignorance to relegate the XD to only a "static range gun', and not trust it for serious use. That is just plain dumb. The more I shoot it, the more I realize how good the grip is, and how well the mag release is executed. Because plenty of 'bubbas' own them, does not make them less robust and reliable - and perhaps decently accurate.
With winter style gloves, they are easier to handle than Glocks by far, and have an edge on the MP.
Suit yourself. I don't really care what gun you carry. You expressed interest in Glocks, and when I gave you a solution you went looking for nits to pick.
I didn't just express interest in Glocks. I own one. I like it. The GFA is a very good 'reversible' device that enhances the grip.
But, at the end of the day, for me, in various weather conditions and the need to wear gloves in many circumstances, the Glock is NOT as useable/versatile.
The XD's grip size, angle, trigger guard, etc., seem to be better in various conditions to the Glock - period. This is also because it does NOT have finger grooves. Finger grooves fit one person in 20.
When it comes to winter gloves, I agree that the Glock isn't a good choice. Then again, I also tend to hang up my XD as well in addition to several other handguns save for one or two. Now when I say "winter weather", I am not talking some namby-pamby 30 degree temperatures. I am originally from ND where it would be -30 degrees without the wind chill before I would come in from varmint hunting and gloves that won't leave your fingers dead, black and fallings off don't work with many handguns.
The exceptions are two designs. First, the H&K USP has a cavern of a trigger guard, especially when you carry it cocked and locked. The slide release and magazine release also work very well with heavy gloves on so when the mercury drops down below the donught, the USP is my weapon of choice here. The other option is the CZ/EAA Witness design and for many of the same reasons as the USP. Once again, they can be carried cocked and locked with a larger DA trigger guard, although not quite as large as the USP's. This is the only other design I will carry in those condtions mainly due to having to shoot with heavy gloves on. Other designs just don't pass muster in this area.
TriviaMonster
11-03-12, 23:39
I think I am going to get a grip reduction done on my G23 3rd Gen. The finger grooves absolutely have to go, they are so narrow it's hard to believe the gun was designed for an adult hand. Every time I shoot for extended periods, my fingers are absolutely wrecked where they hit the grooves. As far as comfort goes, I can shoot 500-600rds in a session with my XDm and my hands feel fine, but the Glock makes me feel like I have arthritis after a couple hundred.
I may try the GFA out and see how I like it, but the grooves are going soon.
Or...I have been wanting to try a PPQ, or maybe even a P30. I haven't shot a P30, but I did enjoy shooting a P2000 FS 9mm a few times.
XD's are so inexpensive that Police departments would save a TON of money even when compared to Glocks LEO program but I have NEVER seen a department choose an XD as their mandatory side arm.
I think that says a lot.
My kid sister works at a department in KY that was using the XD-45 but after several time of not firing with different officers and from the range to an OIS they are in the process of going Glock. I have heard of other departments that had authorized them having issues and then not authorizing them but can't find much. If anyone know of any please let me know. I need the information for where I work at and XD Talk is worthless for anything that is not professing all the good of the XD.
Dan
I think I am going to get a grip reduction done on my G23 3rd Gen.
I may try the GFA out and see how I like it, but the grooves are going soon.
The GFA is a VERY well done add on to take care of both Glock Bite and grip angle. But, if you have short fingers it may not be the ticket. It is not very expensive though, and worth the try.
I would have to say shoot them all and pick then pistol that feels best to you.
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