View Full Version : DelTon's new rifles and what is wrong with people?
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/09/27/new-ar-15-rifles-from-del-ton/
I had to read over this like three times. The article just a cut and paste from an email they received I'm sure. But it's the comments that drive me nuts. I thought everyone was well aware the delton was shit, even the people that bought Bushmaster and RockRiver turned their noses at delton, at least I thought.
But no, apparently not. Mixed in with three or four reasonable comments, there is actually support for them. Do people not do any amount of research and just look a the picture and the price tag?
Don't even waste your energy trying to figure out why people are retarded.
It'll never change. The most popular guns sold are the biggest piles of shit. Kel Tec, Highpoint, etc.
Guns just attract retards.
Don't even waste your energy trying to figure out why people are retarded.
It'll never change. The most popular guns sold are the biggest piles of shit. Kel Tec, Highpoint, etc.
Guns just attract retards.
I call it the Garage Sale Mindset, people will alway buy shit just because it costs less, no matter if it is of lesser quality. What gets me going is when they try to justify their purchase and say its "just as good"
bullittmcqueen
09-28-12, 10:43
Because the mentality of most people is "I can do it better for less". Someone buys a del-ton and shoots 25 rounds a year at dirt clumps and proclaims it is "just as good as a Colt! and half the price!!" and the interwebz rejoice.
That's why I hang out on M4C. The mentality here is the opposite.
I see Grant smiling up there...
I bet he'd agree that if you want to be around a lot of dumb asses... open a gun store!! :p
The extractors are made out of the same steel and they dont need a O-ring (O-rings are optimal, but the military doesnt see a need for them), spring is M4 spec, buffer weight is M4 spec, and gas port M4 spec. Sounds to me like another low cost alternative to having “Colt” stamped on the side.
****, could this rifle be almost as good as a Colt without the Colt price??? I could see why this would piss of a lot of people.
JUST NO.
Unfortunately Markm is all to correct. The last few months has been an eye opener. The fit and finish safe queen crowd is alive and well. Most of these clowns with the piece of shit ARs don't want run enough rounds through them to know the difference.
Doc Safari
09-28-12, 11:17
Some years back I asked my local dealer why someone would prefer some el cheapo pistol to a well-made current production factory handgun from a maker with a known reputation, and his answer was that most people don't see the value in buying a gun that they can't pay for out of one paycheck.
I guess he's right. Despite my Herculean efforts to get him to stock BCM, Daniel Defense, and others, he still has a rack full of DPMS and Del-Ton junk.
Nightvisionary
09-28-12, 11:20
I recently started visiting Predator Masters forum under another handle to gain some knowledge on Coyote hunting. Of course I ended up in the AR subforum. A guy starts a thread asking opinions on Del Ton stuff. I tried to steer him away from Del Ton and got dog piled.
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2291791#Post2291791
Another guy wondered why he was getting poor and inconsistent accuracy from his DPMS+$39 NC Star reflex sight. I told him he will get mediocre performance as long as his uses sub-par equipment. They almost skinned me alive. Tasco, BSA, Bushnell, DPMS, Olympic Arms, and Del Ton are all in vogue over there.
A large segment of shooters will do absolutely zero research and buy the biggest POS if it will save them 15%.
I have to thank you for that link to predator palace or whatever. Hysterical how people so feverishly defend their rifle choice.
My favorite is the "buy what you can afford" bit. As if it is an insurmountable obstacle to pay $100 or $200 more for a rifle you are already prepared to spend $1000 on...???
Maybe an analogy they could grip would be with cars: If I could buy a (insert favorite car/truck out of your price range here) and pay $1000 (about $20/month) more than my current POS I would NEVER even think about doing that.
Ah, good times...
Obviously it's the 'low $$$ cost' factor that attracts and beats out the 'quality facts' of a 'well made' AR vs. a 'shitty' one when it comes to making a buying decision from most first time AR buyers.(too many shitty AR 'clones on the market to confuse the un-informed)
I would rather have only one good quality AR/gun than many cheaper built ARs'/guns!
I can see how it happens because money is 'tight' for most people right now (or they're to cheap and uninformed)so the price tag is the first thing they'll look at instead of the gun itself when they get that AR itch.
They'll also loose more $$$ in the long run from selling off that shitty AR that they thought they were getting such a 'good deal' on when they first bought it when having to replacing it with a 'proven' good one that was only a few $$$ more in the first place!(you see happenall the time here on m4c)
I call it the Garage Sale Mindset, people will alway buy shit just because it costs less, no matter if it is of less quality.
oh ****, that might be me. i bought some lw-15 lowers and i have been trying to break them. (havent yet)
One, is named "Mr. Bumpy". he has a slidefire and gets a ton of use the kids and friends.
shit, am i a cheap ass...?
I call it the Garage Sale Mindset, people will alway buy shit just because it costs less, no matter if it is of less quality. What gets me going is when they try to justify their purchase and say its "just as good"
There is a lot of truth to this, especially with an economy in the crapper and spare cash hard to get.
However, there are times when a Bushmaster is just as good as a Colt. If you know you're going to send maybe 100 rounds down range a year plinking on a square range then the Colt or DD or LaRue is overkill. Not everyone is a hard core shooter. He'll I wouldn't even consider most gun owners soft core shooters. Doesn't excuse the it's better than Colt claims though.
richiecotite
09-28-12, 12:22
There is a lot of truth to this, especially with an economy in the crapper and spare cash hard to get.
However, there are times when a Bushmaster is just as good as a Colt. If you know you're going to send maybe 100 rounds down range a year plinking on a square range then the Colt or DD or LaRue is overkill. Not everyone is a hard core shooter. He'll I wouldn't even consider most gun owners soft core shooters. Doesn't excuse the it's better than Colt claims though.
Exactly my sentiments. The way i see it, the more people that own AR's, the more mainstream they become and the sooner the 'assault rifle' stigma goes away...and some of those people will finally see the light.
Well a lot of these people rely on their LGS to tell what is good, and we all know how well informed they are.
I used to cringe at some of the prices I saw for AR's 15-1700 or more, and couldn't believe people were paying these prices. But now with my current BCM build I am there. But I have learned a lot over the years, about why some of this stuff cost more.
However, there are times when a Bushmaster is just as good as a Colt. If you know you're going to send maybe 100 rounds down range a year plinking on a square range then the Colt or DD or LaRue is overkill.
I'll argue that if you ever even LOOK at that gun as a self defense weapon. Range-Only, sure, have at it, but that's not what the people in the link I posted are talking about.
Can't speak for the quality of a DelTon as I've never owned one. At the end of day, I think what AR15 you choose depends on what you're going to do that with it. For the purposes most people do, a Delton would probably serve most people fine. This isn't to say the Delton is equal or worst than an upper tier AR. I'm not qualified to answer that. Berating people who buy these rifles is just plain ignorant though.
lethal dose
09-28-12, 13:01
Unfortunately Markm is all to correct. The last few months has been an eye opener. The fit and finish safe queen crowd is alive and well. Most of these clowns with the piece of shit ARs don't want run enough rounds through them to know the difference.
Ya know gunz, you're exactly right. Markm, too. The point I always try to make is... If you can't afford a $300-$400 increase to buy something decent, there's NO way you'll ever afford ammo. FACT. I feel there is one exception to this rule... That's the m&p sport. No surprise, though, because Smith prides itself on accurate price points and the best CS in the business. A complete sport for $629 is not what I'd call a deal, but appropriate... AND they're put together CORRECTLY by a company that gets it. Truth be told, a del ton, DPMS, rra, etc. would probably work perfectly for 90% of all shooters out there, but what I don't get and think is ignorant as all get out is the price point of said companies. I'd put the smith in the same category as these others as far as content goes, but the things (other then appropriate pricing) about the smith are: you know it'll be in spec and there is actual CS to back everything up. Do I own a sport? No. But I do think it's the best of the worst especially for the price. Regardless, I still say if you can't afford something decent, you can't afford ammo or training.
I see Grant smiling up there...
I bet he'd agree that if you want to be around a lot of dumb asses... open a gun store!! :p
Actually, open any store and observe the behavior of people. Or ask them a simple question, like "Why are gas prices so high?" People used to say it was because President Bush was friends with the owners of oil companies. Under Obama the price has doubled. So now what do they say? Because companies are greedy.
If you can't afford a $300-$400 increase to buy something decent, there's NO way you'll ever afford ammo.
That made me think of something. When people register for the site they should have to post a pic of their car. I wonder of the DelTon guys are driving Kia's. Or maybe they ride Chinese motorcycles bought from Costco.
I've pretty much given up trying to educate people on this topic. Tired of banging my head against the wall explaining to people that for a mere few hundred bucks, you will have a top shelf AR that can last a lifetime and serve you under all conditions, but people still seem to be happy buying a plastic lower and something like a R Guns upper on it, and think all is good in the world because they have a sub $500 rifle. I honestly don't care what AR these people buy anymore.
TriumphRat675
09-28-12, 14:45
I think a lot of the time folks are talking past each other, on that hunting forum especially.
The hunting guys look at you like you're nuts when you buy a 10.3 in barreled Mk18 clone with a Surefire can, scout light and aimpoint. You can't pop 'yotes at 300 yds with that nonsense.
The tac guys barf in their mouths when the hunting dudes get a 24 in barreled DPMS varmint gun. How are SEALS and/or retired accountants supposed to clear shoot houses with that piece of crap? It isn't even parked under the front sight!
The dirt shooters just want something that looks badass and would rather spend the extra $200 on beer and fritos. Can't say I blame them.
Who really gives a shit? It isn't my job to tell a prairie dog hunter what tool to buy or to correct Joe Six Pack's incorrect rifle choice just in case Mrs. Six Pack gets kidnapped by cartel members and he has to fight a one man war against the Zetas. For that matter, when my boss wants to show me his nice new Kimber, I don't tell him what a piece of crap it is or that he should have bought a Wilson or Springfield Operator or G19 if he had any brains. I tell him it looks nice and leave it at that, for the same reason I don't tell people that their F-250 is a moron car choice because they live in the city and wouldn't know which end of the horse to stick the hay bales they never transport in, and that they should have gotten an Accord. They are adults, can make up their own minds, may be uninformed but assuredly don't care what I think about anything.
My hobby is shooting and improving my shooting skills. I prefer to buy the highest quality gear I can because I don't want it to break and might possibly have to use it someday for reals. Other folks have different priorities, wants and needs. If they're dumb enough to want to argue that that DPMS is just as good as that DD Mk18, okie. No skin off my back. Smile and nod, and float on...
Huntsman82
09-28-12, 14:53
That made me think of something. When people register for the site they should have to post a pic of their car. I wonder of the DelTon guys are driving Kia's. Or maybe they ride Chinese motorcycles bought from Costco.
Hey I drive a Kia!! And I have a BCM. So not all kia owners make bad choices ;)
The only thing I find more of a mystery than why some people waste money on cheap crap, is why other people waste time trying to convince them not to.
time > $
piesandcheese
09-28-12, 18:34
If it wasn't for the advice from this board, I would have been the proud owner of what I thought was a "higher end" dpms.
Thank god for this forum and the people in it. I now frequent the range with my DD v5 and I couldn't be happier. Several thousand rounds later and I still have yet to see it stutter.
I owe all of you a great big thank you :)
vicious_cb
09-28-12, 19:01
Ha, I love the "its only a range toy" crowd. You can bet that when they hear a loud crash in the night or if SHTF that "range toy" only AR will be locked and loaded in their hands ready to be used socially.
Doc Safari
09-28-12, 21:18
If it wasn't for the advice from this board, I would have been the proud owner of what I thought was a "higher end" dpms.
Thank god for this forum and the people in it. I now frequent the range with my DD v5 and I couldn't be happier. Several thousand rounds later and I still have yet to see it stutter.
I owe all of you a great big thank you :)
Me too.
Hey, I bought into the hype that Bushmaster was a Tier 1 brand. This forum convinced me differently.
The difference is that I didn't cry like little girl when my favorite brand was mercilessly trashed. Instead, I said, "Okay. Perhaps I have been wrong."
The difference is that I didn't cry like little girl when my favorite brand was mercilessly trashed. Instead, I said, "Okay. Perhaps I have been wrong."
You know what? You can keep your maturity, intelligence and general commonsense to yourself. This type of behaviour is not in keeping with the general trend of the board. You should be crying like a little bitch indignant that someone would dare to assert that your favourite flavour of coolaid is actually weasel piss.
Cameron
Doc Safari
09-28-12, 22:36
You know what? You can keep your maturity, intelligence and general commonsense to yourself. This type of behaviour is not in keeping with the general trend of the board. You should be crying like a little bitch indignant that someone would dare to assert that your favourite flavour of coolaid is actually weasel piss.
Cameron
Weasel Piss?
WEASEL PISS?
Sir, I'll have you know I nearly suffered the separation of a bowel from the rest of my anatomy laughing at that one.
It is.....to LOL! :jester:
I think a lot of the time folks are talking past each other, on that hunting forum especially.
The hunting guys look at you like you're nuts when you buy a 10.3 in barreled Mk18 clone with a Surefire can, scout light and aimpoint. You can't pop 'yotes at 300 yds with that nonsense.
The tac guys barf in their mouths when the hunting dudes get a 24 in barreled DPMS varmint gun. How are SEALS and/or retired accountants supposed to clear shoot houses with that piece of crap? It isn't even parked under the front sight!
The dirt shooters just want something that looks badass and would rather spend the extra $200 on beer and fritos. Can't say I blame them.
Who really gives a shit? It isn't my job to tell a prairie dog hunter what tool to buy or to correct Joe Six Pack's incorrect rifle choice just in case Mrs. Six Pack gets kidnapped by cartel members and he has to fight a one man war against the Zetas. For that matter, when my boss wants to show me his nice new Kimber, I don't tell him what a piece of crap it is or that he should have bought a Wilson or Springfield Operator or G19 if he had any brains. I tell him it looks nice and leave it at that, for the same reason I don't tell people that their F-250 is a moron car choice because they live in the city and wouldn't know which end of the horse to stick the hay bales they never transport in, and that they should have gotten an Accord. They are adults, can make up their own minds, may be uninformed but assuredly don't care what I think about anything.
My hobby is shooting and improving my shooting skills. I prefer to buy the highest quality gear I can because I don't want it to break and might possibly have to use it someday for reals. Other folks have different priorities, wants and needs. If they're dumb enough to want to argue that that DPMS is just as good as that DD Mk18, okie. No skin off my back. Smile and nod, and float on...
This....
mmchambers06
09-29-12, 00:33
Hi all.
Mike Chambers here. First off, I am an active 3 gunner and USPSA pistol shooter with state/regional wins to my name. Secondly, I am sponsored by Del Ton. Lastly, I have owned and shot the crap out of a bunch of AR-15s from various manufacturers from across he spectrum of price!
Bang for buck, my rifles are second to none. If they weren't competitive at the highest level of 3 gunning I would not shoot them, it's that simple. They have been accurate and reliable from day one. Ultimately there is a lot of misinformation and opinions based on secondhand sources which I disagree with. If you have any specific questions shoot me a PM. I rarely am over here.
You are all welcome to shoot my rifles at any match I'm at. Right now I'm in Arkansas for the USPSA AR State Championship and next weekend I'll be in Texas for the Fallen Brethren match.
mmchambers06
09-29-12, 00:40
Some rifle action:
http://youtu.be/sJL8IaOVITs
http://youtu.be/DtIKs_4gu6M
In the end its all about the dollars. Want to try an experiment. Put a POS next to a Top of the line AR (name your brand) which could run a couple of hundred more. Bring in a bunch of cops and tell them to buy a patrol rifle to be used at work, and they will pick the POS everytime.
Heh Heh, wait till they come to me to approve said POS for patrol use. There is going to be a flood of POS rifles for sale in this neck of the woods.
The thing is, it's a business. It's my understanding that dealers in your average joe local gun shop make a lot more off selling a bunch of 7-800$ Dpms/bushy/whatever than having a 1600$ Daniel defense sitting on the wall for 3 months.
Plus 99% of people will never even begin to push their gun to the point where they can see why a colt 6920 is better than a dpms sportical. Your average AR owner shoots every couple months a few hundred rounds from a bench and calls it a day.
People that frequent this site tend to be real shooters. I'm a bolt gun long range guy myself, but I have my own land and can shoot whenever, when I decided I wanted an AR to play with I knew I'd be putting a thousand rounds down in a weekend (when I have time) but most people don't fall in that category.
I have been around firearms all of my life and grew up in a family of shooters. In that time, I've seen a lot of so-called "bargain basement" guns. I spent many hours and paid in blood, sweat and tears trying to make them run right. A few were mine. Most belonged to others. Nearly always, it was a fol's errand
I still do not understand folks who are so obsessed with getting a bargain that they will spend a pile of money buying cheap junk. Not just once but over and over again
I got so worked up I spent over an hour typing out my experiences trying to get so-called bargain basement guns to run right. Came to my senses halfway through. Believe me when I tell you, it's best I deleted the rant to spare everyone the agony
It's not the problem of people owning said crap, but not understandibg why their gun isn't "as good" or "better". Half the time I have to palm my forehead and/or walk away, because they just don't get it.
What's even better is a salesman or gunshop owner that will fight tooth and nail that their DPMS or Bushy are just as good. Or if you want the best on the market I'll show you a RRA. Once had a guy tell me that's what all the SF use. That they trash their colts, and use RRA.... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.....
Point is, the average shooter will not understand why a colt, Noveske, BCM, or Daniel Defense is BETTER and even if they do, will not admit their fault for buying a lesser rifle in the first place. Looks the same. Does the same. For less....
This is why I only try to hang around certain gunshops and forums. Saves me my sanity.
Hi all.
Mike Chambers here. First off, I am an active 3 gunner and USPSA pistol shooter with state/regional wins to my name. Secondly, I am sponsored by Del Ton. Lastly, I have owned and shot the crap out of a bunch of AR-15s from various manufacturers from across he spectrum of price!
Bang for buck, my rifles are second to none. If they weren't competitive at the highest level of 3 gunning I would not shoot them, it's that simple. They have been accurate and reliable from day one. Ultimately there is a lot of misinformation and opinions based on secondhand sources which I disagree with. If you have any specific questions shoot me a PM. I rarely am over here.
You are all welcome to shoot my rifles at any match I'm at. Right now I'm in Arkansas for the USPSA AR State Championship and next weekend I'll be in Texas for the Fallen Brethren match.
Not that you are likely to see or reply to this post, but did you receive your Delton sponsored rifle directly from them, or buy it at some random box store?
Hi all.
Mike Chambers here. First off, I am an active 3 gunner and USPSA pistol shooter with state/regional wins to my name. Secondly, I am sponsored by Del Ton. Lastly, I have owned and shot the crap out of a bunch of AR-15s from various manufacturers from across he spectrum of price!
Bang for buck, my rifles are second to none. If they weren't competitive at the highest level of 3 gunning I would not shoot them, it's that simple. They have been accurate and reliable from day one. Ultimately there is a lot of misinformation and opinions based on secondhand sources which I disagree with. If you have any specific questions shoot me a PM. I rarely am over here.
You are all welcome to shoot my rifles at any match I'm at. Right now I'm in Arkansas for the USPSA AR State Championship and next weekend I'll be in Texas for the Fallen Brethren match.
Did DT cherry pick/custom build your AR's or were they off the rack?
The guns that RRA built for the DEA were cherry built and when they (DEA) started to get a large QTY of their order, they ran into problems.
All AR's (no matter the maker) are capable of running. When we look at the quality of a manufacturer, we like to look at large samplings (like 100 rifles or more). Then we like to bounce them against the TDP with hard copy proof of specs and certs.
C4
dang....after reading this ..i better just start shooting my old colt SP1...
and throw my beater delton away.... :)
ha ! its all good. i enjoy all my ARs.
QuietShootr
09-29-12, 08:03
I recently started visiting Predator Masters forum under another handle to gain some knowledge on Coyote hunting. Of course I ended up in the AR subforum. A guy starts a thread asking opinions on Del Ton stuff. I tried to steer him away from Del Ton and got dog piled.
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2291791#Post2291791
Another guy wondered why he was getting poor and inconsistent accuracy from his DPMS+$39 NC Star reflex sight. I told him he will get mediocre performance as long as his uses sub-par equipment. They almost skinned me alive. Tasco, BSA, Bushnell, DPMS, Olympic Arms, and Del Ton are all in vogue over there.
A large segment of shooters will do absolutely zero research and buy the biggest POS if it will save them 15%.
This is why I long ago decided you can lead a horse to water, but you shouldn't bother putting your lips to his asshole and sucking to make him drink.
The corollary is that if the stupid horse finds his way to your watering hole, and insists on shitting in it instead of drinking from it, you run him off or shoot him.
There - I just fixed all the problems of the gun internet in one post.
CaptainDooley
09-29-12, 08:56
Ha, I love the "its only a range toy" crowd. You can bet that when they hear a loud crash in the night or if SHTF that "range toy" only AR will be locked and loaded in their hands ready to be used socially.
Naw, don't you know a rifle is no good in your house? You'll kill people 3 houses away. Besides, do you know what the sound of jacking a round into an 870 does to criminals? Apparently it turns their bowels to water. You'll never even have to shoot it.
Naw, don't you know a rifle is no good in your house? You'll kill people 3 houses away. Besides, do you know what the sound of jacking a round into an 870 does to criminals? Apparently it turns their bowels to water. You'll never even have to shoot it.
870 is too quiet. Those in the know prefer the Ithica because it's proven to be the most intimidating when a round is racked into the chamber and the sound will carry over that of even the rowdiest of barroom brawls
I see Grant smiling up there...
I bet he'd agree that if you want to be around a lot of dumb asses... open a gun store!! :p
Amen ! I worked in my friend's shop for awhile and it was terrible. If you want to see less inteligence, work a table at a gun show. Some people don't deserve to breath.
Besides, do you know what the sound of jacking a round into an 870 does to criminals? Apparently it turns their bowels to water. You'll never even have to shoot it.
I don't believe that for a second. If someone is crazy or ballsy enough to break into a house with ill intentions I don't think the sound of racking a pump shot gun is going to do much to deter them.
CaptainDooley
09-29-12, 13:13
Clearly you also don't believe in humor or sarcasm.
I don't believe that for a second. If someone is crazy or ballsy enough to break into a house with ill intentions I don't think the sound of racking a pump shot gun is going to do much to deter them.
Clearly you also don't believe in humor or sarcasm.
Oh I do but if you only knew how many times I've heard that statement by people who actually belive it you wouldn't find it humorous or sarcastic either.
CaptainDooley
09-29-12, 13:28
I too have heard it about a million times. The point was, people who buy shit ARs often believe this and other myths about personal defense.
Oh I do but if you only knew how many times I've heard that statement by people who actually belive it you wouldn't find it humorous or sarcastic either.
This is why I long ago decided you can lead a horse to water, but you shouldn't bother putting your lips to his asshole and sucking to make him drink.
The corollary is that if the stupid horse finds his way to your watering hole, and insists on shitting in it instead of drinking from it, you run him off or shoot him.
There - I just fixed all the problems of the gun internet in one post.
I know you are right, but I keep thinking about how ignorant I was till I started reading this forum and hanging with shooters that actually shoot, not look at thier weapons. If it wasn't for the time and effort of these people, I would be stuck in the LGS frame of mind.
Bottom line, try to help. If they don't listen that's on them. You don't know what you don't know, especially if someone doesnt take the time to help you know.
I too have heard it about a million times. The point was, people who buy shit ARs often believe this and other myths about personal defense.
I gotcha now. Sorry if I came off crotchety.
I am an active 3 gunner and USPSA pistol shooter with state/regional wins to my name. Secondly, I am sponsored by Del Ton.
Mike,
I appreciate your response, and not just jumping on the bandwagon with the responses. I think the issue you will find is this board has nothing to do with the 3-gun crowd. It is geared towards the "Tactical" side of shooting, and AR15. With that in mind, top quality parts aid in reliability. Consistent QC and solid specs provide for a quality weapon.
I can understand and respect the idea you are sponsored. If I were a 3-gun shooter I could call on someone like Oly Arms for a sponsorship, and know that I could do well. Hand picking parts, and verifying them in training, I have no doubt at all I could build up an Oly to be competitive with, they have some barrels that are very accurate, and the rest of the weapon would be built up with other parts anyway. If a part broke, it would simply be swapped out, and my barrels would come from the start of the barrel run. The issue with OA is their quality control, and that seems to be the problem with many companies.
No one here is going to imply you can't do 3-gun with Delton, OA, Bushmaster, or any other AR15. The worst that happens is you don't get a good score.
I don't believe that for a second. If someone is crazy or ballsy enough to break into a house with ill intentions I don't think the sound of racking a pump shot gun is going to do much to deter them.
You have to use an Ithaca 37. While an 870 is a terrific shotgun, the sound of it's racking is lacking. It's only enough to send minor miscreants such as juvenile delinquents and milk bottle snatchers to running.
The Ithaca 37 has intimidation to spare. even the most hardened badguys cannot withstand the fearful sound of a round being sent to it's chamber. Pulling back on the pump will turn their bowels to water and slamming it forward will set their feet to running before the sound registers in their conscious minds and crying for their mammas. Lesser criminals have been so frightend by the sound of an Ithaca 37 that they turned to stone. The sound has froazen many a rookie officer in place the first time they heard their partners racking a Ithaca 37. There are rumors some wrong-doers, like wife beaters, have even exploded. Bacause of this, the Ithaca 37 is banned from police work in certain jurisdictions. That's why the Ithaca pump shotgun has been the favorite shotgun of veteran law enforcement officers since the 1930s
Ha, I love the "its only a range toy" crowd. You can bet that when they hear a loud crash in the night or if SHTF that "range toy" only AR will be locked and loaded in their hands ready to be used socially.
You can bet that nobody cares or should care. It is amazing the lengths people will go through to legitimize their purchase.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/09/27/new-ar-15-rifles-from-del-ton/
I had to read over this like three times. The article just a cut and paste from an email they received I'm sure. But it's the comments that drive me nuts. I thought everyone was well aware the delton was shit, even the people that bought Bushmaster and RockRiver turned their noses at delton, at least I thought.
But no, apparently not. Mixed in with three or four reasonable comments, there is actually support for them. Do people not do any amount of research and just look a the picture and the price tag?
So Delton isn't the same quality as KAC? :rolleyes:
The hunting guys look at you like you're nuts when you buy a 10.3 in barreled Mk18 clone with a Surefire can, scout light and aimpoint. You can't pop 'yotes at 300 yds with that nonsense.
Many hunters wouldn't say that, too. I understand the stereotypes that many types of hunters fall into, but I have to point out that as the tactical crowd is for sure the most dynamic, the hunters have use for moving forward in their methods also.
In the beginning of the AR's inception into the market, one man I know who jumped on 'em (purchased an AR-15) said he did face some ridicule for using a 20" AR-15 to hunt deer. People thought it was a pea shooter and it looked like, "a toy or something." Upon further observation they saw the round was actually very effective with little felt recoil. It was also notable that the rifle was very accurate, too.
Today there are hunters with AR-15's of all kinds, night vision, suppressors, and all kinds of "tactical" ideals to their rifle. I would certainly agree the tactical crowd is typically the first to learn what the most efficient setup is for a given task, and I do think hunters catch onto that eventually depending on their goals.
The quality of our firearms could mean life, death, or even severe injury. There's no reason to diss other types of shooters if we know that we can back up our reasons for high quality parts and equipment with facts. Factually, a hunter or dirt shooter can justify their firearm even if it's not military grade. There's nothing appalling about that until they start thinking it's a suitable choice for saving lives.
I just am glad i researched before i bought my ar. Got a bcm from grant for similar to what a dpms or delton goes for locally!!!
As for the hunting vs tactical crowd; it goes the other way to. A 30-06 "deer rifle" with a 3-9 scope can be a pretty effective weapon in alot of scenarios. Same goes for a 20" turkey/deer shotgun...
Unfortunately Markm is all to correct. The last few months has been an eye opener. The fit and finish safe queen crowd is alive and well. Most of these clowns with the piece of shit ARs don't want run enough rounds through them to know the difference.Correct. These ARs will get shot a couple of magazines worth a year, AT MOST. Usually hip firing, like the clowns I saw at the range a couple of weeks ago, except they had POS AKs and couldnt hit shit at 25m.
wetidlerjr
09-29-12, 19:41
I have pretty much given up on trying to enlighten anyone over at TOS. All you get is "My Hesse (or insert any POS AR) is better than any DD or Colt and the 1000 rds. I have fired through it in the last five years proves it!" nonsense. All I get out of it is a headache. :(
As someone who has seen my fair share of ARs ranging from USMIL weapons to those owned by PMC's as well as the manufacturing and building side if the house I can say with certainty that anyone who claims they are all the same or parts are parts needs to put the crack pipe down. As a matter of fact I saw an off the shelf Delton nightmare fall apart in a Magpul class. According to the owner it was store bought off the shelf.
I also know what costs to build and make some of these ARs and there is no way that they are performing the same type of checks and QA/QC as the other more well known brands. We also know that some of these companies in the past I've been very duplicitous with their marketing techniques and making claims of performing certain checks. So sorry if I don't share your enthusiasm and your joyat with Delton or DPMS or Bushmaster or any of the other trash vendors.
JBecker 72
09-29-12, 20:35
I have a lot of shooting buddies. Half of them get it. The other half carry a hi point and call me a snob for recommending a Glock. I have stopped trying to convince them otherwise.
Case in point, a buddy recently shot my BCM middy with a Centurion rail, Aimpoint PRO and a Surefire M300A, he fell in love with it. When he asked me to piece together the same thing for him part for part I showed him the bill before we ordered it. His jaw hit the ground when I told him it would be $2200 in parts and I would assemble it for free. He then went off on a rant about how stupid I was for spending that much on one rifle and he could build the same thing twice for less. I smiled and simply told him that if he wanted to shoot my rifle again he was more than welcome. His "AR" is a Colt .22 with a Walmart red dot and a $20 Amazon light that needs a new set of batteries every time before he turns it on and it maybe puts out 20 lumens.
I have taken 3 pigs this year with my "mall ninja" rifle using M855 ammo. One at over 200 yards. Guess I never got the memo that I don't have a hunting rifle.
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I have a lot of shooting buddies. Half of them get it. The other half carry a hi point and call me a snob for recommending a Glock. I have stopped trying to convince them otherwise.
Case in point, a buddy recently shot my BCM middy with a Centurion rail, Aimpoint PRO and a Surefire M300A, he fell in love with it. When he asked me to piece together the same thing for him part for part I showed him the bill before we ordered it. His jaw hit the ground when I told him it would be $2200 in parts and I would assemble it for free. He then went off on a rant about how stupid I was for spending that much on one rifle and he could build the same thing twice for less. I smiled and simply told him that if he wanted to shoot my rifle again he was more than welcome. His "AR" is a Colt .22 with a Walmart red dot and a $20 Amazon light that needs a new set of batteries every time before he turns it on and it maybe puts out 20 lumens.
I have taken 3 pigs this year with my "mall ninja" rifle using M855 ammo. One at over 200 yards. Guess I never got the memo that I don't have a hunting rifle.
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From an ethical standpoint, why would you use FMJ's? You're also breaking the law. http://blog.freemanoutfitters.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/California-Pig-Hunting-Guide.pdf
JBecker 72
09-29-12, 21:06
Never had a problem stopping them in one shot. Wasn't aware I was breaking the law though.
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Getting back OT. I believe Del-Ton is probably OK for a hunting rifle. I certainly wouldn't use one for home defense. I value my family's life more than that.
I've pretty much given up trying to educate people on this topic. Tired of banging my head against the wall explaining to people that for a mere few hundred bucks, you will have a top shelf AR that can last a lifetime and serve you under all conditions, but people still seem to be happy buying a plastic lower and something like a R Guns upper on it, and think all is good in the world because they have a sub $500 rifle. I honestly don't care what AR these people buy anymore.
^^^^^^^THIS!
I'm glad I know the truth, and I'll share my opinion if someone asks me. But I will not have this argument online. It's emotionally and mentally exhausting.
People are morons, I work in retail so I know ;-).
Fetep
What is crazy is the price, $1300 for a Delton! What are they smoking over there?
As a matter of fact I saw an off the shelf Delton nightmare fall apart in a Magpul class. According to the owner it was store bought off the shelf.
IG out of curiosity, did you observe what specific problems the delton was having?
If you wanted something for home defense, I wouldn't even drop the money for an AR15. I would just get a Remington 870.
Never had a problem stopping them in one shot. Wasn't aware I was breaking the law though.
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The link says that if you hunt wild pigs in California, you're not allowed to use FMJ's, only expanding bullets. While legal, it also doesn't recommend any .22 caliber for hunting pigs.
I've got numerous AR's ranging from DelTon's to Noveske. DelTon's that I've owned I've had zero problems with, they all zeroed without issue, are accurate, and have not had any malfunctions. At 100 yards, I've averaged 2.5 MOA which I won't complain about. Most armchair critics I find of DelTon never even owned one much less shot one.
DelTon's may not be in the same class of DD, BMC, Armalite, Colt, LaRue, or Noveske, but then the company probably doesn't expect people who purchase them to be somewhere in Afghanistan either. People need to understand that not everyone can afford a Colt or Noveske. Hate to say it, but even people like me who own a Noveske probably purchased something more than what it will be used or designed for.
Bottom line DelTon reliable and accurate, what more can you ask for a rifle that is expected to be used for recreational punching holes in paper, home defense, or maybe protect yourself against looters after a Hurricane or Tornado hit.
If you wanted something for home defense, I wouldn't even drop the money for an AR15. I would just get a Remington 870.
I wouldn't. The AR is a superior choice.
C4
I've got numerous AR's ranging from DelTon's to Noveske. DelTon's that I've owned I've had zero problems with, they all zeroed without issue, are accurate, and have not had any malfunctions. At 100 yards, I've averaged 2.5 MOA which I won't complain about. Most armchair critics I find of DelTon never even owned one much less shot one.
DelTon's may not be in the same class of DD, BMC, Armalite, Colt, LaRue, or Noveske, but then the company probably doesn't expect people who purchase them to be somewhere in Afghanistan either. People need to understand that not everyone can afford a Colt or Noveske. Hate to say it, but even people like me who own a Noveske probably purchased something more than what it will be used or designed for.
Bottom line DelTon reliable and accurate, what more can you ask for a rifle that is expected to be used for recreational punching holes in paper, home defense, or maybe protect yourself against looters after a Hurricane or Tornado hit.
Exactly. Can't disagree with that.
I wouldn't. The AR is a superior choice.
C4
It's ultimately up to person with what they feel comfortable with, but nobody is inadequately prepared to defend themselves if they choose a 870 over an AR15, or they are unable to afford an AR15 and a 870 is all they can get.
I've got numerous AR's ranging from DelTon's to Noveske. DelTon's that I've owned I've had zero problems with, they all zeroed without issue, are accurate, and have not had any malfunctions. At 100 yards, I've averaged 2.5 MOA which I won't complain about. Most armchair critics I find of DelTon never even owned one much less shot one.
DelTon's may not be in the same class of DD, BMC, Armalite, Colt, LaRue, or Noveske, but then the company probably doesn't expect people who purchase them to be somewhere in Afghanistan either. People need to understand that not everyone can afford a Colt or Noveske. Hate to say it, but even people like me who own a Noveske probably purchased something more than what it will be used or designed for.
Bottom line DelTon reliable and accurate, what more can you ask for a rifle that is expected to be used for recreational punching holes in paper, home defense, or maybe protect yourself against looters after a Hurricane or Tornado hit.
How many rounds through your Delton? Have you taken it to a class?
For dirt clod shooters and varmint hunters it might be acceptable, but for those of us who train on a regular basis it's not unusual to have $3-4K invested in a class after travel, food, lodging, and ammo is included, so a couple hundred bucks saved on a rifle is false economy.
It's ultimately up to person with what they feel comfortable with, but nobody is inadequately prepared to defend themselves if they choose a 870 over an AR15.
As someone that has attended professional training to include running one while room clearing, I think the SG gives people a false sense of ability.
Typically speaking, most people shoot VERY few rounds through their SG and shoot thousands of rounds through their AR and pistol. Which gun are they more familiar with??
I never said that anyone would be "inadequately prepared" with a SG, but should be viewed as the THIRD best option available IMHO.
The above opinion comes from logging HUNDREDS of hours in shoot houses clearing rooms. Each weapon has its limitation and capabilities and until you have trained with all three of them (in a room clearing environment) can you honestly know what is best.
C4
I think a lot of the time folks are talking past each other, on that hunting forum especially.
The hunting guys look at you like you're nuts when you buy a 10.3 in barreled Mk18 clone with a Surefire can, scout light and aimpoint. You can't pop 'yotes at 300 yds with that nonsense.
The tac guys barf in their mouths when the hunting dudes get a 24 in barreled DPMS varmint gun. How are SEALS and/or retired accountants supposed to clear shoot houses with that piece of crap? It isn't even parked under the front sight!
The dirt shooters just want something that looks badass and would rather spend the extra $200 on beer and fritos. Can't say I blame them.
Who really gives a shit? It isn't my job to tell a prairie dog hunter what tool to buy or to correct Joe Six Pack's incorrect rifle choice just in case Mrs. Six Pack gets kidnapped by cartel members and he has to fight a one man war against the Zetas. For that matter, when my boss wants to show me his nice new Kimber, I don't tell him what a piece of crap it is or that he should have bought a Wilson or Springfield Operator or G19 if he had any brains. I tell him it looks nice and leave it at that, for the same reason I don't tell people that their F-250 is a moron car choice because they live in the city and wouldn't know which end of the horse to stick the hay bales they never transport in, and that they should have gotten an Accord. They are adults, can make up their own minds, may be uninformed but assuredly don't care what I think about anything.
My hobby is shooting and improving my shooting skills. I prefer to buy the highest quality gear I can because I don't want it to break and might possibly have to use it someday for reals. Other folks have different priorities, wants and needs. If they're dumb enough to want to argue that that DPMS is just as good as that DD Mk18, okie. No skin off my back. Smile and nod, and float on...
*Golf clap*
I realy wish someone would close this thread..
As someone that has attended professional training to include running one while room clearing, I think the SG gives people a false sense of ability.
Typically speaking, most people shoot VERY few rounds through their SG and shoot thousands of rounds through their AR and pistol. Which gun are they more familiar with??
I never said that anyone would be "inadequately prepared" with a SG, but should be viewed as the THIRD best option available IMHO.
The above opinion comes from logging HUNDREDS of hours in shoot houses clearing rooms. Each weapon has its limitation and capabilities and until you have trained with all three of them (in a room clearing environment) can you honestly know what is best.
C4
You're right about everything you said. The AR15 is a better weapon overall than a Remington 870. However, whether you choose an AR15 or 870 for home defense really is makes no difference for most at the end of the day. Yes, you could die or be at a disadvantage by choosing an 870 over an AR15 for home defense, but you could also die from getting struck by lightening.
I realy wish someone would close this thread..
Why? This is red meat.
Originally Posted by ermac
nobody is inadequately prepared to defend themselves if they choose a 870 over an AR15.
1. I hope this does NOT mean that DelTon is offering 870s now.
2. I would say you are "less adequately prepared" to defend your home with an 870 than with an AR15.
Why?
- slower first shot
- slower follow up shots
- 1/4 the number of shots
- likelihood of short stroking the action under stress.
I am sure there are other reasons too, but these are what I have observed in shooters I take out to compare an 870 to an AR15 and an AK47 before they decide what to buy.
No new shooter I have taken out has ever chosen a shotgun or AK47 over an AR15 after shooting all 3 side by side. Why? They find they are faster and more accurate with an AR15.
I've got numerous AR's ranging from DelTon's to Noveske. DelTon's that I've owned I've had zero problems with, they all zeroed without issue, are accurate, and have not had any malfunctions. At 100 yards, I've averaged 2.5 MOA which I won't complain about. Most armchair critics I find of DelTon never even owned one much less shot one.
DelTon's may not be in the same class of DD, BMC, Armalite, Colt, LaRue, or Noveske, but then the company probably doesn't expect people who purchase them to be somewhere in Afghanistan either. People need to understand that not everyone can afford a Colt or Noveske. Hate to say it, but even people like me who own a Noveske probably purchased something more than what it will be used or designed for.
Bottom line DelTon reliable and accurate, what more can you ask for a rifle that is expected to be used for recreational punching holes in paper, home defense, or maybe protect yourself against looters after a Hurricane or Tornado hit.
great post !
Get back to us when you have 5000 rounds through your Delton.
I never said that anyone would be "inadequately prepared" with a SG, but should be viewed as the THIRD best option available IMHO.
C4
You rank a shotgun behind a pistol?
Me personally i know i am very subpar with a pistol and have alot more experience with a shotgun; but in general im suprised you observed a pistol as being more effective!
Btw more funny stuff http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=679223
Failure2Stop
09-30-12, 16:34
You rank a shotgun behind a pistol?
Me personally i know i am very subpar with a pistol and have alot more experience with a shotgun; but in general im suprised you observed a pistol as being more effective!
Btw more funny stuff http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=679223
While the terminal effect of a single shotgun hit versus a pistol caliber hit is highly in favor of the shotgun, the overall adaptability, weight, stoppage reduction, round count, and reload ability of most pistols make them a better choice for me if a handy rifle is not an option. That of course assumes a certain degree of proficiency. If you are not comfortable with a pistol, I recommend the use of the firearm that you are most competent with in your environment.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
How come nobody recommends a Ruger Vaquero in 44mag for HD? It's six bad-ass rounds and it makes a noise when you cock it.
Or am I missing something?
:secret:
I think for people that know they'll never put 5k through their rifle, the decision is less critical.
My issue isn't with people that buy pet brands, such as Delton, and go out and quietly enjoy themselves shooting a 100 round value pack from Wal Mart twice a year. What I do take exception to are the asshats that buy pet brands, shoot 200 a year, then try to convince me that I'm the uninformed idiot for paying what I did for my Colt/BCM/Noveske etc.
Look, if you want to spread crap on your sandwich, that's up to you, but don't try to convince me that it doesn't taste like shit and I'm wasting my money on Miracle Whip.
.
People need to understand that not everyone can afford a Colt or Noveske. Hate to say it, but even people like me who own a Noveske probably purchased something more than what it will be used or designed
The Delton in the article is $1300, a Colt 6920 is about $1000.
Before I fell into my current job I was a gunsmith/armorer guy but spent a good bit of time just chatting with the customers. People don't really want to pay for anything. They'd see how much something would cost then buy a Taurus or DPMS. Buy a new rifle, even if they splurge on a nicer scope its still the cheapest rings and bases they can get. Buy an AR, forget aimpoint or EOtech, put a tasco or Chinese knockoff on it.
Most of the people who actually buy the del ton guns will probably be happy with em. Those who care enough to research stuff probably will pass
mmchambers06
09-30-12, 23:00
Mike,
I appreciate your response, and not just jumping on the bandwagon with the responses. I think the issue you will find is this board has nothing to do with the 3-gun crowd. It is geared towards the "Tactical" side of shooting, and AR15. With that in mind, top quality parts aid in reliability. Consistent QC and solid specs provide for a quality weapon.
I can understand and respect the idea you are sponsored. If I were a 3-gun shooter I could call on someone like Oly Arms for a sponsorship, and know that I could do well. Hand picking parts, and verifying them in training, I have no doubt at all I could build up an Oly to be competitive with, they have some barrels that are very accurate, and the rest of the weapon would be built up with other parts anyway. If a part broke, it would simply be swapped out, and my barrels would come from the start of the barrel run. The issue with OA is their quality control, and that seems to be the problem with many companies.
No one here is going to imply you can't do 3-gun with Delton, OA, Bushmaster, or any other AR15. The worst that happens is you don't get a good score.
Aside from the customizations (which Del Ton sells) - JP trigger, Troy handguard, VLTOR stock - nothing about my rifles is hand picked. I'm coming up on 5K on one pretty quick with no issues. I won't get into the age old argument of competition vs. "tactical", but I will say that I run my guns harder than 99.9% of owners and demand a lot of them, accuracy/reliability-wise.
I'm also not going to tell everyone that a Del Ton rifle is superior or the same as a JP, Noveske, whatever, but when it comes to performance in a practical situation, it does the job equally well. If it didn't I wouldn't have won today. :p
To continue the car analogy, it's like a Mitsubishi Evo vs. an Audi R8. They both do the job, but one is half price. I'll spend the difference on gasoline. The biggest problem unfortunately is that most owners never take em out of the garage and don't know how to drive!
Anyway, I have one of the new rifles headed my way and again you are all welcome to shoot it anytime I'm around. I'm happy to see more companies making guns like the Evo - competition in the market is a very good thing.
Mike
Actually EVERYONE can afford a Colt. But, we live in the age of I want it now and I don't want to save a little longer.
Additionally the Delton is more expensive than a BCM or Colt. If you cannot afford a Colt or BCM then you won't be able to buy ammunition or mags.
I've got numerous AR's ranging from DelTon's to Noveske. DelTon's that I've owned I've had zero problems with, they all zeroed without issue, are accurate, and have not had any malfunctions. At 100 yards, I've averaged 2.5 MOA which I won't complain about. Most armchair critics I find of DelTon never even owned one much less shot one.
DelTon's may not be in the same class of DD, BMC, Armalite, Colt, LaRue, or Noveske, but then the company probably doesn't expect people who purchase them to be somewhere in Afghanistan either. People need to understand that not everyone can afford a Colt or Noveske. Hate to say it, but even people like me who own a Noveske probably purchased something more than what it will be used or designed for.
Bottom line DelTon reliable and accurate, what more can you ask for a rifle that is expected to be used for recreational punching holes in paper, home defense, or maybe protect yourself against looters after a Hurricane or Tornado hit.
Actually EVERYONE can afford a Colt. But, we live in the age of I want it now and I don't want to save a little longer.
Additionally the Delton is more expensive than a BCM or Colt. If you cannot afford a Colt or BCM then you won't be able to buy ammunition or mags.
Plain and simple Logic? These shenanigans wont fly here! Perhaps a flow chart would help.........
:D
IG out of curiosity, did you observe what specific problems the delton was having?
I'm also interested in what ways it "fell apart".
The so-called low pro gas block was not properly installed and the screws loosened during the course. As the BCG slammed forward and hit the gas tube it pushed the tube and gas block forward until it started to short stroke.
Then the castle nut wasn't staked and the nut and tube began to loosen while he was shooting and moving.
The flash hider was not installed properly and they used some kind of nut instead of a crush washer.
Couple that with stuff like this on their website- http://www.del-ton.com/M_16_Bolt_and_Carrier_p/bc1046.htm and that is all I need to know. I know what Carpenter 158 costs and there is no way that they are getting properly made MILSPEC BCG's and selling them for that price. I know of one company that purchases their stuff direct from sources by the hundreds and if they sold them for that price they would end up bankrupt.
DIRECT FROM THEIR WEBSITE-
Includes
16" 1x9 twist, chrome molly barrel- Not MILSPEC and not 4150 CMV
flat top upper- ?
bolt and carrier assembly- No way is this HP/MPI tested
charging handle- So what
CAR handguards- So what
At the end of the day I am not going to convince anyone of the value or lack thereof when it comes to trashy weapons. You should see some of the trash that showed up in my Armorer Course today in Wisconsin. Proof positive that trashe peddlers are alive and well. I should have taken pics, but I was too busy.
I'm also interested in what ways it "fell apart".
TacticalSledgehammer
10-01-12, 06:22
I bet most of the delton/dpms/oly guys bought that snazzy iPhone 5 the first day it came out. It's this kind of mentality that we deal with. "cheap out on the gun, other things are more important"
30 cal slut
10-01-12, 07:13
I love these threads. :p
It wasn't too long ago that I spoke with an exec at Remington (subsidiary of Freedom Group).
His words on the subject ...just like any other consumer product ... "There is a large market for budget rifles."
As we all know here, all M4/AR rifles are not equal. What's not especially appreciated is that the market for M4/AR rifles is really segmented between budget, mid-grade, and high-end.
Part of the reason is consumer preference (you will ALWAYS have price sensitive buyers, period).
The second reason, and I quote a Colt Defense manager .... "is that Colt hasn't done such a great job educating consumers."
Thank God for M4C. :D
You rank a shotgun behind a pistol?
Me personally i know i am very subpar with a pistol and have alot more experience with a shotgun; but in general im suprised you observed a pistol as being more effective!
Btw more funny stuff http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=679223
First, do you have your CCW?
Second, never said the the pistol was BALLISTICALLY superior (or more affective) to the SG.
C4
I just took a second look at those new Del-Ton rifles and I was wondering how someone would add a front sight the "DT Sport OR" since it has a low profile gas block and M4 style hand guards. That's not a very smart combination of parts. One would have to come up with some more money on a RDS like a BSA or Truglo after slapping down the cash for the rifle since a pair of ProMag sights wouldn't work for that particular application. That would leave precious little funds for a case of Tula and a 12 pack of Keystone.
Aside from the customizations (which Del Ton sells) - JP trigger, Troy handguard, VLTOR stock - nothing about my rifles is hand picked. I'm coming up on 5K on one pretty quick with no issues. I won't get into the age old argument of competition vs. "tactical", but I will say that I run my guns harder than 99.9% of owners and demand a lot of them, accuracy/reliability-wise.
I'm also not going to tell everyone that a Del Ton rifle is superior or the same as a JP, Noveske, whatever, but when it comes to performance in a practical situation, it does the job equally well. If it didn't I wouldn't have won today. :p
To continue the car analogy, it's like a Mitsubishi Evo vs. an Audi R8. They both do the job, but one is half price. I'll spend the difference on gasoline. The biggest problem unfortunately is that most owners never take em out of the garage and don't know how to drive!
Anyway, I have one of the new rifles headed my way and again you are all welcome to shoot it anytime I'm around. I'm happy to see more companies making guns like the Evo - competition in the market is a very good thing.
Mike
You may do fine with your rifle and so will X number of DelTon shooters that come to defend them but what about the number of failures compared to other brands?
It isn't a snobbery claim of my R8 is better than your Evo just because it's an R8. It also isn't a matter of cost. R8s may fail more often than Evos for all I know. I look at reliability and trust in a brand name, of which DelTon, Bushmaster, Oly, DPMS, and RRA do not have IMO and for many others here that have seen the failure rates. We that have read and learned don't want to be that unlucky guy where his rifle breaks at the wrong time. Why would one most likely break over the other? Probably because it wasn't built as close to the TDP.
I posted this in the humor thread for obvious reasons.
Why no love for Bushmaster AR rifles?
A dealer doesn't comprehend why his Bushmasters aren't flying off the shelves when they often cost more than a good Colt, DD, BCM, etc.
It becomes apparent early on that BM is screwing themselves with a dry broom stick by relying on an outdated business model and pricing scale.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=9127987
Five pages of mind numbing Bubba humor with sprinklings of m4c butthurt.
the forum [m4carbine.net] is where all the high speed low drag wanna be navy seals hang out and the chart is what they go by in terms of what they think a rifle should be and if your rifle isn't up to chart standards then its junk and will fail the minute you use it for self defense. Because we all know when someone breaks into your house it all the sudden turns into a bad day in fallujah.
If you have a good 30-45 minutes to kill it's a slightly entertaining thread :D
How many rounds through your Delton? Have you taken it to a class?
I have a stock middy w/carry handle and fixed stock, nothing fancy at all and have 5000 rounds through it without a hitch. No, I haven't taken it to a class but I did run it through a tactical course on my own with some friends and I had no issues. I must emphasize I never run cheap ammo through the rifle or any other AR's that I own. I think that is huge.
For dirt clod shooters and varmint hunters it might be acceptable, but for those of us who train on a regular basis it's not unusual to have $3-4K invested in a class after travel, food, lodging, and ammo is included, so a couple hundred bucks saved on a rifle is false economy.
Its whatever you want and your point is well taken, my SHTF AR is a Noveske with Aimpoint Comp M4 with A2 rear sight 1/3 co-witness.
I would like to emphasize that DelTon has come a long ways and has concentrated on stocking most if not all their rifles with good bolts that are Phosphated 8620 steel carrier assembly, Carpenter 158 bolt HPT/MPI tested, heat treated and plated, chrome lined carrier interior, carrier key, chrome lined, attached with grade 8 screws, properly staked & sealed gas key. For a mid-tier rifle, this is pretty good. For me, DelTon isn't bad, the CMV barrel steel is decent (4140) and are chrome lined, the bolt I believe is the heart and soul of the rifle is good. Bottom line, those on a budget won't be disappointed with the rifle, it will give you fun at the range, it will protect you and your home and for most of us who live in the moderate weather of the U.S. and not the steamy jungles of Vietnam or the arid gritty desert of Iraq or Afghanistan, the rifles we have probably will never see an extreme demand made of them.
scoutchris
10-01-12, 15:48
This forum is a prime example of confirmation bias. Whenever someone posts a thread about a Noveske, DD, whatever malfunctioning they are shat upon for not contacting the manufacturer immediately because the only way one of the tier whatever rifles malfunction is due to either a complete fluke, or some other sort of extraneous circumstances.
Conversely, whenever someone brings up a DelTon malfunctioning it's the standard due to the fact that they didn't x-ray their buttstocks before shipping them out. Or whenever someone brings up a less than worthy rifle functioning flawlessly it's because it doesn't have enough rounds through it- no matter what the count is, or because they haven't taken it to an overrated class that makes you feel like you're an "operator" at the end of it.
Half of the loudest mouths on here that talk endlessly about shooting 40,000 rounds downrange every year have an average of 7-10 posts per day on here- EVERY DAY. Christmas, NYE, etc... That's about a single post every two hours you're awake... every single day. So unless they have a rail adapter for their iphone(that they bought because it's so much "superior") they aren't putting that much time on the range. And nearly everyone that downplays whatever brand they choose on here has a freaking vested interest in the brand's competitor- armorer, dealer, spokesman, etc...
Shoot whatever turns you on, but I can assure you through attending some of the military's most revered schools that you watch TV shows about, and spending over 28 months in Iraq, where my roommate earned the MOH, that I have seen sooooo many of these FN's and Colt's shit the bed - royally. I myself had a Colt bend the gas tube inside of the upper reciever when clearing it returning from a dismounted patrol in Ahdamiyah.. but I'm sure it was due to the ammo I was using, or my lack of Froglube. Shit happens, and every weapon fails, but it has absolutely nothing to due with who pressure tests their barrels.
wetidlerjr
10-01-12, 16:16
This forum is a prime example of confirmation bias...Snip!...Shit happens, and every weapon fails, but it has absolutely nothing to due with who pressure tests their barrels.
Is that you, TNP'R? :D
This forum is a prime example of confirmation bias. Whenever someone posts a thread about a Noveske, DD, whatever malfunctioning they are shat upon for not contacting the manufacturer immediately because the only way one of the tier whatever rifles malfunction is due to either a complete fluke, or some other sort of extraneous circumstances.
So many forums out there are biased towards cheap, crappy AR's. At least this one goes the other direction. ;)
This thread is NOT a malfunctioning AR thread. The OP shared a link to review on the DT AR. So not an apples to apples comparison.
All AR's malfunction. All AR's have parts that wear out and break. Generally speaking, the majority of malfunctions can bet traced back to one of three areas. They are:
1. Stupid user tricks (lack of cleaning and lubrication).
2. Old/worn out mags.
3. Crap ammo.
So when we see a quality made AR have a problem, it is generally one of the above.
Conversely, whenever someone brings up a DelTon malfunctioning it's the standard due to the fact that they didn't x-ray their buttstocks before shipping them out. Or whenever someone brings up a less than worthy rifle functioning flawlessly it's because it doesn't have enough rounds through it- no matter what the count is, or because they haven't taken it to an overrated class that makes you feel like you're an "operator" at the end of it.
It is generally from one of the three reasons above. There are instances though when the gun wasn't put together right or has an out of spec chamber (which is pretty common with 1/9 twist AR's).
Personally, I trust very few people on the net when they quote round counts. As my buddy Ken Hackathorn always says; "Remove a zero from the number they gave you." With that said, having shot 500 "flawless" rounds off a bench (slow fire as your gun club won't allow anything more than 1 round a minute) does not prove a single thing. Ring that baby out via two or three carbine schools and then talk to us about its reliability.
Half of the loudest mouths on here that talk endlessly about shooting 40,000 rounds downrange every year have an average of 7-10 posts per day on here- EVERY DAY. Christmas, NYE, etc... That's about a single post every two hours you're awake... every single day. So unless they have a rail adapter for their iphone(that they bought because it's so much "superior") they aren't putting that much time on the range. And nearly everyone that downplays whatever brand they choose on here has a freaking vested interest in the brand's competitor- armorer, dealer, spokesman, etc...
I have never see anyone state that they shoot 40k a year. Please provide a link.
So in your opinion, EVERYONE on the forum is on the take (but you of course)???
Shoot whatever turns you on, but I can assure you through attending some of the military's most revered schools that you watch TV shows about, and spending over 28 months in Iraq, where my roommate earned the MOH, that I have seen sooooo many of these FN's and Colt's shit the bed - royally. I myself had a Colt bend the gas tube inside of the upper reciever when clearing it returning from a dismounted patrol in Ahdamiyah.. but I'm sure it was due to the ammo I was using, or my lack of Froglube. Shit happens, and every weapon fails, but it has absolutely nothing to due with who pressure tests their barrels.
Actually, the reason why your FN and Colt's didn't work is because:
1. Worn out and need replaced.
2. ZERO preventative maintenance being done on the weapons.
3. Armorers that don't know what they are doing.
4. Supply chain problems (meaning lack of parts).
At the end of the day, if a DT (or whatever brand) makes you happy, then drive on. Just don't blow sunshine up our skirts and tell us that they are all equal (when we know they aren't).
C4
scoutchris
10-01-12, 16:36
Actually, the reason why your FN and Colt's didn't work is because:
1. Worn out and need replaced.
2. ZERO preventative maintenance being done on the weapons.
3. Armorers that don't know what they are doing.
4. Supply chain problems (meaning lack of parts).
Are you serious? This is exactly what I am talking about. The brands that you endorse only fail because that's that they were supposed to do(Worn out and need replaced) or through operator error. Are you ****ing kidding me?
For the record, I exclusively shoot BCM rifles, and I ****ing hate TNP, and everything they stand for.
Suwannee Tim
10-01-12, 16:59
Don't even waste your energy trying to figure out why people are retarded.
It'll never change. The most popular guns sold are the biggest piles of shit. Kel Tec, Highpoint, etc.
Guns just attract retards.
I don't know anything about Highpoint but Kel Tec, cheap and rough as they are, work. They work. Regarding the Del Ton cheerleaders, many of these folks are just repeating what they have heard or read. My guess is you are not all that different. You heard Kel Tec was "shit" and you repeat it and repeat it. I think most of the opinions on the errornet are just that way, no experience, no first hand information, just folks repeating things they have heard and read.
Since when is a two stage trigger and Magpul CTR mil-spec? ;) I know the difference between milspec and commercial.
Seriously though...if everything need not be the dreaded milspec why the urge to label everything that way if it doesn't matter?
Kudos to them if they're trying to improve quality but a CTR, spec tube, 2 stager, Samson kit, and 1/9 isn't screaming $1,300.
All that sweet kit just to shoot 55gr bulk? Save a few hundred, get a 1/7, and you can afford a few cases of 62 or 75 gr and it actually shoot with stability :D
scoutchris
10-01-12, 17:36
I don't know anything about Highpoint but Kel Tec, cheap and rough as they are, work. They work. Regarding the Del Ton cheerleaders, many of these folks are just repeating what they have heard or read. My guess is you are not all that different. You heard Kel Tec was "shit" and you repeat it and repeat it. I think most of the opinions on the errornet are just that way, no experience, no first hand information, just folks repeating things they have heard and read.
This.
My cousin was killed several years ago about a guy using an off the shelf Delton and cheap Wolf FMJ ammo. I'm sure that if he were alive he would disagree with the idea that they will magically shit the bed if needed. Living in NC(Home to Delton) I shoot and train with plenty of guys who have thousands of rounds through their Delton rifles to include 1k round classes. None have had any issues.
All that said I see them as just fine for most recreational shooters out there though I wouldn't spend my money on one. My reasons aren't out of pure concern of them being junk but because I know I can build or buy a better rifle for the same price or only slightly more. My rifles are are built from BCM, DD, FN, Colt, Centurion, Rainier Arms, & Spikes parts and I have never had any issues over the course of many classes and many many thousands of rounds.
Its really no surprise that STI, RRA, Bushy, and DPMS are so popular. They dominate the consumer market because they own the LGS space. With that visibility and all of the LGS folks talking them up its really not hard to understand why someone like the average consumer who doesn't spend much time researching would prefer to buy one of the many commercial grade rifles since that's all they see and all the LGS folks have heard of. Would you buy a new car that was a brand that was never seen at the local car lots and few car salesmen have even heard of? Same principle applies to AR's where only the most informed will make sense of the LARGE selection of brands and parts available on the current market.
While I may recommend a person buy the best tool for the money, I also realize that some people don't see/judge value the way I do. There are those folks out there who prefer to buy quality tools and others who are perfectly fine with buying their tools from Harbor Freight......and replacing them when the shit the bed. I don't waste time trying to convince them their way makes little sense.
yossarian42
10-01-12, 18:13
When I bought my stag I thought that I had done enough research to make a good choice. I read a lot of articles, read about how long cmt had been making AR parts etc. what I didn't know is that those guns and ammo articles never give a bad review to any company. I bought the book of AR 15 that year and read about all the different brands. Being new to firearms in general I guess I just didn't know any better despite doing what I thought was research. I got my stag with their "plus package" (f marked site taper pinned, 4150 steel, m16 carrier, hp/mpi tested bolt and barrel, h buffer, black extractor spring) so it meets all the criteria on the chart but in all honesty ill never know just how well it's made because I live in long island NY, shoot from a bench and there's no rapid fire allowed. I wish I could drive a few minutes to the desert and dump mags but it ain't happening out here.
Then of course you trust your gun store guy to steer you right and the first thing he says is you're paying for the name with colt.
Sent from my iPhone using Fapatalk
Actually, the reason why your FN and Colt's didn't work is because:
1. Worn out and need replaced.
2. ZERO preventative maintenance being done on the weapons.
3. Armorers that don't know what they are doing.
4. Supply chain problems (meaning lack of parts).
Are you serious? This is exactly what I am talking about. The brands that you endorse only fail because that's that they were supposed to do(Worn out and need replaced) or through operator error. Are you ****ing kidding me?
For the record, I exclusively shoot BCM rifles, and I ****ing hate TNP, and everything they stand for.
100% serious. Why do you think the FN M16A4 and Colt M4A1 malfunction???
TNP? No idea what that is.
C4
just for the record..
my neighbor richard has an old dissipator DPMS ..rifle gas.
we're pretty sure its got over 7000 rounds throughout its life.
him and his kids ...just shoot the pee outta that carbine.
I've personally shot several mags through it myselfe.
they go Pdog hunting every year out in south dakota..and shoot the old girl alot.
he's never had a problem with it.
peabody
FireandFlames
10-01-12, 19:52
100% serious. Why do you think the FN M16A4 and Colt M4A1 malfunction???
TNP? No idea what that is.
C4
The nutnfancy project. Airforce Col. Ret. that used to fly kc-135 tankers, now he has a youtube channel that gets an obnoxious amount of views. He has a large following that likes to put him on par with Larry Vickers, "sheepdogs". He perpetuates garbage like- the sig p250 is a good carry pistol, delton rifles are great, and no name Chinese flashlights make great weapon lights.
He first popped up in the knife world, he isn't kindly thought of by many there either. Check his vids out, his "runnin and gunnin" vids are pretty laughable. I hate myself for even knowing who he is.
Sitting at about 1000 rounds through my Del-Ton right now. Most of that in one session. So far I have not had one issue with it. Im going to put a whole lot more through it next week. I want to see how it does after 3000 rounds at about 600-700 rounds each day I take it out. So far its done me right. We will see what happens in the next two weeks.
Weather I think it is or not, i'm not swearing my Del-Ton is "as good as" a Colt here. Learned that lesson the hard way. By the way you guys are brutal.... :moil:
Its my first AR and will probably be bumped to a plinker/varmint. Next one will be a built one. Probably use BCM for majority of my parts. DD is nice but dang, if I only had more money. Maybe later.
First off; im loving then20" bcm i bought off you a few months back ;)
First, do you have your CCW?
Of course; but being in virginia i general open carry no permit required. By subpar with a pistol i mean when im shooting past 15yards i am not confident. While i can hit very reliably with a shotgun to 50 with buckshot 100 with slugs.
Second, never said the the pistol was BALLISTICALLY superior (or more affective) to the SG.
C4
of course not! I thought you meant taking all favtors into consideration [i.e ballistic effectiveness, ease of carry/presentation, and ability to put rounds on target] you prefer a handgun to a shotgun; correct?
ennbeegunny15
10-01-12, 22:02
People really need to read more and post less. PEOPLE! This site is a site that has shooters that shoot a large volume. This site has a professional feel to it. You have a del-ton that works, and you have shot a bunch of rounds. Great. But folks on this site don't give a rats ass about del-ton bushmaster, rra, spikes dpms. Follow along folks. If you don't like getting your ass handed to you, read and read some more. There are brands that this forum epouse, and we choose them for a reason. This forum is for hard users, shooters. Not for those who shoot occasionally....I don't post much because I don't feel the need to, but c'mon folks know where you're posting. Your low level rifle may work for plinking and occasional shooting but that brand won't cut it here. Take it to tos, they will welcome you there....
People really need to read more and post less. PEOPLE! This site is a site that has shooters that shoot a large volume. This site has a professional feel to it. You have a del-ton that works, and you have shot a bunch of rounds. Great. But folks on this site don't give a rats ass about del-ton bushmaster, rra, spikes dpms. Follow along folks. If you don't like getting your ass handed to you, read and read some more. There are brands that this forum epouse, and we choose them for a reason. This forum is for hard users, shooters. Not for those who shoot occasionally....I don't post much because I don't feel the need to, but c'mon folks know where you're posting. Your low level rifle may work for plinking and occasional shooting but that brand won't cut it here. Take it to tos, they will welcome you there....
So I should go away because I dont shoot high volume or a Colt? This is the internet.
Im sorry I made you angry for existing. Doesnt matter, i like you guys anyways.
ennbeegunny15
10-01-12, 23:21
Sir your reply doesn't bother me, it just shows me that people don't really pay attention or understand where they are. Enjoy your del-ton. I'll enjoy my bcm and my colt. Good night.
What is crazy is the price, $1300 for a Delton! What are they smoking over there?
Exactly, you can buy a Colt 6940 for about that price.
The nutnfancy project. Airforce Col. Ret. that used to fly kc-135 tankers, now he has a youtube channel that gets an obnoxious amount of views. He has a large following that likes to put him on par with Larry Vickers, "sheepdogs". He perpetuates garbage like- the sig p250 is a good carry pistol, delton rifles are great, and no name Chinese flashlights make great weapon lights.
He first popped up in the knife world, he isn't kindly thought of by many there either. Check his vids out, his "runnin and gunnin" vids are pretty laughable. I hate myself for even knowing who he is.
Yeah i still have nightmares of the first video of his i've watched.
You have no idea what you were talking about. How many of these crap weapons fail because they arewould made of crap parts trust me I've seen it and I just saw some again this weekend. So many military weapons failed to include the M16A4 and M4the and yes it is because of lack of proper maintenance. Most soldiers do not know anything more than what is in the operators manual. Even more don't even understand how the cycle of operation works and how the gas system works.
Actually, the reason why your FN and Colt's didn't work is because:
1. Worn out and need replaced.
2. ZERO preventative maintenance being done on the weapons.
3. Armorers that don't know what they are doing.
4. Supply chain problems (meaning lack of parts).
Are you serious? This is exactly what I am talking about. The brands that you endorse only fail because that's that they were supposed to do(Worn out and need replaced) or through operator error. Are you ****ing kidding me?
For the record, I exclusively shoot BCM rifles, and I ****ing hate TNP, and everything they stand for.
scoutchris
10-02-12, 08:29
I'm not sure what units you have or have not been affiliated with, but in all units in have served with, all soldiers were covered in all sorts of badges, patches, scrolls, and the like-we are all SME with our service weapons, to include this crucial level of maintenance that exists above the 10 level... They still failed, I hate to burst your bubble.
Sir your reply doesn't bother me, it just shows me that people don't really pay attention or understand where they are. Enjoy your del-ton. I'll enjoy my bcm and my colt. Good night.
http://punitjajo.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/we-have-a-badass-over-here.jpg
First off; im loving then20" bcm i bought off you a few months back ;)
Of course; but being in virginia i general open carry no permit required. By subpar with a pistol i mean when im shooting past 15yards i am not confident. While i can hit very reliably with a shotgun to 50 with buckshot 100 with slugs.
of course not! I thought you meant taking all favtors into consideration [i.e ballistic effectiveness, ease of carry/presentation, and ability to put rounds on target] you prefer a handgun to a shotgun; correct?
The odds that you are going to have your HG on you when things go south are MUCH greater than you having a SG available. This is why you should focus all your time and training to this weapon.
Because of this familiarity (that you should have) and ease of movement in confined spaces is why the pistol trumps the shotgun for home defense.
C4
I'm not sure what units you have or have not been affiliated with, but in all units in have served with, all soldiers were covered in all sorts of badges, patches, scrolls, and the like-we are all SME with our service weapons, to include this crucial level of maintenance that exists above the 10 level... They still failed, I hate to burst your bubble.
To be brutally honest, there are trigger pullers and then there are professional armorers. RARELY (even at the Tier 1 unit levels) do I see the two meet.
You guys might have done your PM's, but the weapons were so old that this wasn't going to save them. Or you thought it was a good idea to never lube your weapon (as you were in a sandy environment). Hard to say, but feel free to PM or e-mail me offline to discuss what problems you witnessed and verifications on round counts per weapon, what/when PM's were done, mags used and what checks were done to those.
C4
Getting back OT. I'm personally glad I came to this site (and others) and gathered as much information as I could before buying.
I could have very easily been one of those people who bought a DPMS, Bushmaster, Delton, etc.
I feel that my research paid off, and thank you guys for helping to keep me from making a bad decision.
I really don't want to come across as someone who bashes those brands. If you own one more power to you.
But I wouldn't buy one either.
Back to Delton. All ANYONE has to do is go to their website and look at what they are selling and the specs and lack thereof.
It's not rocket science. If you look at what a Colt, FN, BCM, DD or LMT BCG costs and you compare that to Delton you should be able to figure out what is going on.
Call and ask them what they use for port sizes. Ask if they have certs to show they do individual HP/MPI on barrels and bolts (100%).
ennbeegunny15
10-02-12, 12:39
Getting back OT. I'm personally glad I came to this site (and others) and gathered as much information as I could before buying.
I could have very easily been one of those people who bought a DPMS, Bushmaster, Delton, etc.
I feel that my research paid off, and thank you guys for helping to keep me from make a bad decision.
I really don't want to come across as someone who bashes those brands. If you own one more power to you.
But I wouldn't buy one either.
Exactly. You've hit the head on the nail and you understand where you are. Kudos. Not everyone gets it.
It seems to me that there are a few maxims in the AR world.
-If you buy quality, you never regret it.
-If you maintain your AR or any other fireaarm...even AK (lubing, cleaning, replacing worn parts), it works better.
-The closer to the TDP you get (or exceed) with your rifle, the better quality you are getting, the more you can trust it in adverse conditions.
-lastly, for some, :p their firearm is part of their manhood, and if someone tries to educate them, they feel like that someone is saying that their genitals are small.
:D .....for me, I know my genitals are small, and usually located in my wife's purse, so I use BCM to make up for it. Fanboy? not really, I just know I can trust them.
I don't fault people for buying lower end brands. I would rather people be free to make crappy choices than force others to see my point of view.
Suwannee Tim
10-02-12, 20:06
People are very funny where money is concerend. One of my shooting associates is a psychiatrist who owns a clinic. He probably makes $400K a year or more. Shows up at the range with the cheapest Savage rifle made, cheap mounts, cheap scope, cheap spotting scope. Nothing but the cheapest. I helped him as best I could and have encouraged to upgrade his equipment. This guy lives in a 7,000 ft^2 $2,000,000 house on the river and complains about his $700 a month combined electric, water, sewer and irrigation bill. I offered to swap houses, I only pay $300 a month for utilities. He didn't buy into that. He drives an S class Mercedes, four or five years old, his wife's hand-me-down. She's a doc too. I wouldn't be surprised to see him show up with a Delton.
Zero Signal
10-02-12, 23:24
Half of the loudest mouths on here that talk endlessly about shooting 40,000 rounds downrange every year have an average of 7-10 posts per day on here- EVERY DAY. Christmas, NYE, etc... That's about a single post every two hours you're awake... every single day. So unless they have a rail adapter for their iphone(that they bought because it's so much "superior") they aren't putting that much time on the range. And nearly everyone that downplays whatever brand they choose on here has a freaking vested interest in the brand's competitor- armorer, dealer, spokesman, etc...
.
Found one for the guys that taptalk while putting 40,000 rnds down range:sarcastic:
http://www.knightarmco.com/images/25695_up.jpg
http://www.knightarmco.com/images/25695_back.jpg
W.T.F. Please tell me that is not a rail mount for a phone. Is that real?
Google rifle ipod
It'll show mounts and offer links to apps for calculating trajectory and such
One hundred and twenty seven posts on a thread that basically was all about preaching to the choir. Sad, so sad. You would expect more being M4Carbine.net. :sad:
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