View Full Version : Caracal C Review & G19 Comparison
plouffedaddy
09-30-12, 19:51
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/tiffani33/Guns/IMG_1069.jpg
I've often posted here with high praise for the Caracal pistols so I figured I'd knock out a review of the guns with the Caracal C going first. The C model seems to be the one people ask about the most and frequently the question is, "Is it better than a Glock 19?" We'll get to that a little later but first I'll lay out some of the pros and cons of the gun.
Pros:
-Reliable. The gun has well over 1,000 rounds (not sure on the exact count, I've let many people borrow the pistol to try out) with only 1 malfunction which was a bad primer with Brown Bear ammo. I put the same round in my G17 and it didn't fire with that gun either so I'm putting the blame solely on the ammo
-Price. This gun is available online for $399 shipped with box and two mags. In my opinion it's the best handgun deal on the market today (CZ 82 second).
-Accurate. This gun is like a 1911 in that it tends to make average shooters shoot like good shooters
-Very low bore axis (see comparison pictures with my P229 below) resulting in the softest shooting 9mm (along with the F model) I've ever shot
-Excellent trigger. It's smooth with no stacking. It breaks extremely cleanly and has a positive reset
-Great finish. The Plasox (with nitriding) finish is holding up very well thus far
-It has a loaded chamber indicator on the top of the slide allowing the user to check that it is loaded without having to conduct a press check
-Very good ergonomics. Everyone that has shot the gun seems to comment on how good it feels in their hands
-15+1 capacity while only weighing 25oz
-Passed the WTD 91 (German armed forces) testing in 2006
-Has been adopted by several nations' standard military sidearm; many police agencies in Italy and Germany have adopted it as well
-It's classified as an IDPA production gun
-Easy to clean and maintain. Requires very little lubrication as well
-Interior parts are coated with the Plasox finish as well
-Ambi controls (except for the slide lock)
-Spare parts including springs are available from Caracal-USA now (this is relatively new)
-The Caracal C can use F 18 round magazines
Cons:
-Little aftermarket support
-Night sights are not available in the US currently. I spoke with Caracal USA last week and they said they are working with several manufacturers currently but they don't have a date yet as to when they'll be released
-The rear sight is part of the firing pin assembly. This will either make aftermarket sights more expensive or limit some to front sight only
-The guns are made in the UAE and Germany. The UAE made guns are the only ones available in the US currently. (I don't care about this but it's a common point brought up so I'm including it so people don't say "you didn't mention where it was made....")
-In order to detail strip the gun you have to deal with roll pins. Not a big deal but I'd prefer not to if I didn't have to
-The slide lock protrudes to far. I hit it with my thumb about 50% of the time if I'm not conscious of it and many people I've let shoot it have the exact same issue
Now, back to the original question---is it better than the G19? In terms of familiarity, factory customer service support, sight availability, and aftermarket support---no, it's not. In terms of factory trigger, cost (non-blue label program), and perceived recoil---yes it is. I'll give them a tie for reliability, simplicity, and accuracy.
The best way I can answer the question is to say if I never fired a handgun and was given a Caracal C and a G19 to shoot for a day and asked to pick only 1 which would I pick? I think I'd pick the Caracal C. That said, I've been shooting Glocks for years and am very comfortable and relatively proficient with them so now I slightly prefer Glocks but I wouldn't have any reservations about trusting my life to a Caracal.
Here's a video of me shooting the gun, a tabletop review with some comparisons to other 15 round 9mm guns (G19 and SIG P229R), and a chronograph test with some popular defensive loads:
CARACAL C HD VIDEO REVIEW LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTxQSUIE2kU&feature=g-upl)
Chrono numbers:
Speer 124gr Gold Dot JHPs: 1127fps, 350 ft/lbs energy
Federal 124gr HST JHPs: 1092fps, 328 ft/lbs energy
Winchester 115gr Ranger JHPs: 1095fps, 306 ft/lbs energy
Caracal bore axis:
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/tiffani33/Guns/IMG_1070.jpg
SIG P229R bore axis:
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/tiffani33/Guns/IMG_1071.jpg
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l178/tiffani33/Guns/IMG_1072.jpg
Littlelebowski
09-30-12, 20:06
Way to pimp your YouTube channel.
Singlestack Wonder
09-30-12, 20:20
It's no wonder that you had issues bumping the slide stop. Look how far and at what angle it sticks out away from the frame. :rolleyes:
Another Glock clone.
I'll stick with the original. :cool:
I snagged one of these after messing with LAVs, and its a good little gun. Shoots great, nice trigger, but I don't like the design of the sights at all as I prefer a different style rear and I don't see these getting much industry support based on the fact that the sight is integrated into the slide's guts.
It was a good addition to the pile for the cost, and for a little over $300 used you could do much worse. Not swapping any Glocks out for it.
plouffedaddy
09-30-12, 22:24
Way to pimp your YouTube channel.
I get no ad revenue from my channel currently. I just think it's easier to explain some things by demonstrating them.
Another Glock clone.
No wonder. Designed by same guy who influenced design of Glock (and later worked at Glock for several years) then designed Steyr M1. You can find both in Caracal.
Actually I shot German made one on Saturday (they make them in Merkel factory, that Caracal bought from HK several years ago). I see much improvement over UAE prototype I shot back in 2010 in Belgrade. Mostly trigger and sights (one that I shot used "classic" 3 dot design). But this integrated rear sight is still weakest point of this pistol for me.
I have been shooting a Glock 19 for 20 years and agree with the OP's assessment. The low bore axis, durability of the finish, and accuracy are where this pistol really shines.
Good review.The ergos look good just from the photos.Inprovements can be made and bugs worked out. I wouldn.t mind having one.
The first Glock 17 that came to the largest gun dealer here sat on display in the store window for two years,even at night. No one would even break the glass to steal it.
We see where that finally went.
specopsscout
10-01-12, 07:53
I remember those days. I bought my first Glock, a newly introduced Gen2 17, back in early 1988, while stationed at Camp Pendleton. You wouldn't believe the trash I heard about how pathetically stupid my decision was to not only buy a nine sillymeter, but to get a plastic one at that...it was gonna melt, blow up, break, crack, you name it...
Those were the days...
plouffedaddy
10-01-12, 14:38
No wonder. Designed by same guy who influenced design of Glock (and later worked at Glock for several years) then designed Steyr M1. You can find both in Caracal.
Actually I shot German made one on Saturday (they make them in Merkel factory, that Caracal bought from HK several years ago). I see much improvement over UAE prototype I shot back in 2010 in Belgrade. Mostly trigger and sights (one that I shot used "classic" 3 dot design). But this integrated rear sight is still weakest point of this pistol for me.
Montrala--do you have the option to purchase night sights (even just the front) over there for this gun?
Montrala--do you have the option to purchase night sights (even just the front) over there for this gun?
No. I talked to factory representative and for now only fiber optic front sight is possible. He was unaware of plans for tritium. Actually in Germany tritium is banned for environmental reasons. Nuclear waste, two headed sheep, you know. Usual stuff for German Green Party.
I have put a lot of rounds through both the F model and C model. It is surprising how will the grip fits a wide range of hand sizes.
The one place the Glock outperforms the Caracal is how well/reliably the Glock works when it is dirty. I have found that after about 200-300 rounds of range time with quality factory ammo, the Caracal will start to malfunction, typically FTE issues. After a quick cleaning, it would then function fine.
Another CON for the Caracal is the small sharp tab the protrudes from the front of the magazine. It is this small tab that holds the magazine in place in the gun. While I have not worn one out yet (I have sliced my finger on it), it does seem like a fragile critical part.
A62Rambler
10-01-12, 17:16
I thought your review was good. If I might offer a suggestion it would be a paper target of the accuracy of both the Glock and Caracal since you are comparing them. Also compare the bore axis of Glock and Caracal and not the Sig which has a known high bore axis. I do enjoy your reviews though because they are brief and to the point.
plouffedaddy
10-01-12, 21:39
I thought your review was good. If I might offer a suggestion it would be a paper target of the accuracy of both the Glock and Caracal since you are comparing them. Also compare the bore axis of Glock and Caracal and not the Sig which has a known high bore axis. I do enjoy your reviews though because they are brief and to the point.
Thanks for the suggestion. I occasionally do an accuracy test but I don't have a place to conduct a bench test and shoot video so I have to do them offhand and the shooter (me) becomes the biggest variable instead of the gun.
I used the SIG just to illustrate the point since people often say that the bore axis difference isn't significant; but I should have taken a photo with the Glock as well.
I do try to shoot for brevity though so pros and cons to both suggestions.
I still have the Caracal C that I wrote the SWAT article about (I wound up buying it from the manufacturer).
Mine is equipped with the quick-see sights which feature integral sights as part of the frame just forward of the ejection port. The concept is that the sights are supposedly quicker to pick up than conventional sights. For closer ranges the sight setup is fine. At 25 yards these sights make it more difficult than conventional sights to get a head shot.
As part of the article, I had a Tritium insert with a white outline installed in the front sight. It turned out to work very well. In total darkness it seems to naturally index between the two rear sights. This is more than I can say for some other guns that I own that have tritium only in the front sight. I usally prefer three dot system with on tritium front dot and two rear dots, or even a single rear dot. But the QS sights seem to index perfectly with just the front tritium dot and always wind up with the front sight in the middle of the QS's rear blades or wings.
I was actually considering selling this handgun, but then shot it side by side with my Glock 19 and found that I shot a bit better with the Caracal at closer ranges, but the quick-see sights were a disadvantage at 25 yards. The Caracal seems to have a better trigger than the Glock. My Glock 19 has a standard 5.5 or 6lb trigger, while the Caracal's trigger is about 4lbs and very crisp. It also seems to fit my hand better than a Glock.
Here is a close-up from the rear of the gun:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/caracal2-1.jpg
Below is an overhead view:
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m115/edagain/caracal1-1.jpg
Ive been enjoying my Caracal C. Its fairly similar to a Glock in most respects, but the trigger is clearly better imo. Once night sights become available i will be using the C as my carry pistol.
Gary1911A1
10-02-12, 10:42
I have a Caracal C and a Glok 19. Even though I have shot the Glock thousands of rounds more I found I could shoot the Caracal better in a very short period of time. Like the first range session with both.;)
plouffedaddy
10-02-12, 13:43
Ed L--could you share the cost of that insert and who did the work?
from my limited experience with the Caracal i can say without a doubt that the trigger FEELS 100x's than a glock with a ghost #3.5 rocket. also the ergos of the gun in my opinion rape the glock and almost beat the M&P. the only draw back i have with the gun is the shitty sight design. cut it off and mill on a dove tail.
I have a Caracal C and a Glok 19. Even though I have shot the Glock thousands of rounds more I found I could shoot the Caracal better in a very short period of time. Like the first range session with both.;)
Can you please define this statement and add something quantifiable to the subject?
Subjective feel of a pistol means nothing in the grand scheme of things as the only real non subjective indicators of worthiness of a pistol are the following three things
1. Reliability
2. MECHANICAL Accuracy
3. Design in regard to maintenance schedules/takedown/cleaning
3.1 Aftermarket support.
Lots of people love their new purchases. Lots of people love to think their new software purchase is infinitely faster, better, stronger, longer and even makes julienne fries.
At the end of the day, they're all guns and the nut behind the trigger is the most important factor barring the pistol passes the above three criteria.
Ed L--could you share the cost of that insert and who did the work?
The sight work was done by www.amerigunusa.com. I shipped them the slide.
The installation of the single white outlined tritium dot was around $82.50 and the return shipping was $17.50--if I remember correctly.
Can you please define this statement and add something quantifiable to the subject?
Subjective feel of a pistol means nothing in the grand scheme of things as the only real non subjective indicators of worthiness of a pistol are the following three things
1. Reliability
2. MECHANICAL Accuracy
3. Design in regard to maintenance schedules/takedown/cleaning
3.1 Aftermarket support.
Lots of people love their new purchases. Lots of people love to think their new software purchase is infinitely faster, better, stronger, longer and even makes julienne fries.
At the end of the day, they're all guns and the nut behind the trigger is the most important factor barring the pistol passes the above three criteria.
This is the hardware forum and we HAVE been talking about reliability, accuracy, design and aftermarket support. Or a lack thereof. I think its taken for granted at this point, that the person behind the trigger is the most important feature. That stuff is discussed in the training forums. No?
No one has stated anything in the way of technical information in this thread.
No round counts other than the OP's "more than 1 thousand rounds have been run through the pistol!", no targets, comparative analysis of drills being run between the G19 or the Caracal.
Just a bunch of "i like my caracal!" posts which are fine and all but this forum is about "hardware" and data right?
I mean shit, i have a badass dewalt drill that rocks some serious face. It screws and drills pretty darned well, kind of like a power drill...
You may have to find those answers yourself Magz, if your so inclined. Not enough or no Caracals in the hands of the more serious shooters to provide such data. Although Rob Pincus has put 9000 rds thru a Caracal F. He and some of his associates are giving similar feedback about the pistol, to what is being related in this thread. Basically that its reliable, accurate and has good shooting characteristics, comparable or better than the other popular striker fired pistols on the market. Just the basics so far.
plouffedaddy
10-03-12, 08:21
The sight work was done by www.amerigunusa.com. I shipped them the slide.
The installation of the single white outlined tritium dot was around $82.50 and the return shipping was $17.50--if I remember correctly.
Thank you. That's less that I was thinking it would be.
You may have to find those answers yourself Magz, if your so inclined. Not enough or no Caracals in the hands of the more serious shooters to provide such data. Although Rob Pincus has put 9000 rds thru a Caracal F. He and some of his associates are giving similar feedback about the pistol, to what is being related in this thread. Basically that its reliable, accurate and has good shooting characteristics, comparable or better than the other popular striker fired pistols on the market. Just the basics so far.
The basics are a bunch of words...
We are supposed to be looking beyond these words on forums such as these.
Granted, a thread like this IS a starting point like you mentioned but very few threads ACTUALLY evolve into something centered around statistics.
I have put many rounds through several Caracals and they have not been flawless. During extended practice sessions, or in last stages of a match, we generally see/experience FTE problems. A cursory cleaning typically takes care of the problem temporarily. I have seen this problem in both the F and C models.
The basics are a bunch of words...
We are supposed to be looking beyond these words on forums such as these.
Granted, a thread like this IS a starting point like you mentioned but very few threads ACTUALLY evolve into something centered around statistics.
Again, the kinds of shooters that would provide statistics aren't playing with Caracals. Or they would have participated in this thread by now.
Again, the kinds of shooters that would provide statistics aren't playing with Caracals. Or they would have participated in this thread by now.
Also, the Caracal is relatively new to the US market and not out there in large numbers.
I've seen over 1500 rounds through each of the two test Caracals--one full sized and one compact--with hardly any issues. At about the 800 round mark the full sized Caracal failed to extract a case, and did so again about a hundred rounds later. I wasn’t sure if this was a fluke, so I cleaned and lubricated it, and the gun functioned flawlessly for the remainder of the test.
The subcompact Caracal experienced a single failure to feed with a hollowpoint at about the 1200 round mark, where the mouth of a Black Hills 115 grain +P JHP got caught on the bottom of the feed ramp. Since the friend who was shooting it was employing a stance that might have lead to limpwristing, I fired another 200 rounds of the same ammo through the gun using the magazine that gun malfunctioned with and experienced no further issues.
I realize that these are just two datapoints.
Sorry if I missed it but are the stock sights steel or polymer?
The stock sights are steel.
plouffedaddy
10-04-12, 09:39
Also, the Caracal is relatively new to the US market and not out there in large numbers.
I've seen over 1500 rounds through each of the two test Caracals--one full sized and one compact--with hardly any issues. At about the 800 round mark the full sized Caracal failed to extract a case, and did so again about a hundred rounds later. I wasn’t sure if this was a fluke, so I cleaned and lubricated it, and the gun functioned flawlessly for the remainder of the test.
The subcompact Caracal experienced a single failure to feed with a hollowpoint at about the 1200 round mark, where the mouth of a Black Hills 115 grain +P JHP got caught on the bottom of the feed ramp. Since the friend who was shooting it was employing a stance that might have lead to limpwristing, I fired another 200 rounds of the same ammo through the gun using the magazine that gun malfunctioned with and experienced no further issues.
I realize that these are just two datapoints.
Good info right there. I haven't shot more than 250 rounds in any one session with either of my Caracals. I always at least wipe the internals down and re-lube after every session.
brickboy240
10-04-12, 12:47
Its really hard to dog on the Caracal and those that try it when you consider the current problems with the Glock 9mms and the full size M&P9.
Especially when you consider how inexpensive they are.
I have handled a few and really want to shoot one.
-brickboy240
Good point brickboy. I just recently bought another gen 3 but was hesitant to buy a new glock with some of the recent problems. 400 rounds through it and no problems yet but it was still enough to make me think twice about a new glock. If the caracal ends up being reliable and remains affordable it may be a success especially with the majority of the general public gravitating toward guns that cost less. That being said.... I will still keep my glocks.
Urban_Redneck
10-05-12, 17:02
I have 2200 rounds through my full size Caracal 0 malfunctions using brass cased, FMJ ammo from Geco, Ranger +P, PMC, Federal Champion, WWB. Hollow Points have been Rem and Speer 124gr (200 total).
I find the rear sight "tight" and am toying with the idea of having a gunsmith open up the notch 0.010" to let a allow a bit more daylight on either side of the front sight.
I haven't benched it at 25y. With my meager skills I can manage 4" 10 shot groups at that distance. I shoot the same with a PPQ, and a little better with my 1911.
I haven't a trigger pull scale, though side by side with my buddy's PPQ the Caracal trigger stroke is shorter and a bit heavier. From reset, the PPQ pull is shorter. Note: these are two different systems Caracal, like the Glock comes to full cock with the trigger pull. The PPQ is fully cocked and has what I consider to be a two-stage trigger.
As to aftermarket support, RKBA made me a nice Kydex holster, great guy! I haven't required anything else (yet).
I 'll be buying another next week.
YMMV
I wont buy another until they have them with night sight options. Im hoping "2nd Gen" Caracal's will have a standard sight setup.
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