View Full Version : Project: Break my J frame.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-30-12, 21:18
Guys,
For the past few years I have spent less and less time playing with autoloading handguns. My main problem with them is that they are, frankly, impractical for every day civillian carry. I still play with my .45s and my plastic guns but I never carry them.
Basically, here is my reasoning (from a post of mine last year).
I think the J-frame in airweight format is probably the best all-around gun for the average civillian. Here is why:
1. Very simple. The Revolver has no safety, no movable sights, no dropable magazines, nothing. Just a gun that you can drop in your pocket and go.
2. Very reliable. While the myth of the unstoppable revolver is BS, it is true that a revolver is more likely to go off when you pull the trigger. Any number of factors from being out of battery due to close contact, empty chamber, jam, missing magazine, etc can curse your autoloader, the J-frame will work in all of the these cicumstances--and if the cylinder is empty keep squeezing.
3. Reasonable cost. Autoloaders are pricey. A Glock 19 is going to run most folks around $520. You are going to need a rigid holster (at least a fobus) and probably at least another spare mag or two. A J-frame will run you $100-200 cheaper.
4. You can throw out the price difference buy purchasing a set of crimson trace laser grips. This is, in the words of LAV, a no brainer fro the J-frame. The laser grip is absolutely perfect for this type of gun. You can practice dry-firing, shooting on the move, barrier shots, etc using the crimson trace grips and save a LOT of time and money at the range. This is especially nice for folks who don't have a range where they can practice practical shooting.
5. Five shots is a serious limitation. I do agree with those who say that 5 shots is the scary minimum. But I do think that the fact that you are much more likely to actually CARRY an ultra-lightweight revolver makes up for a combat autoloader in the glove compartment because you didn't feel like putting it back on before you went in the store.
6. Simplicity (again). A J-frame is really all you need. A simple nylon pocket holster is preferable, but not absolutely needed. You can just put it in your coat pocket (and shoot through it if need be). There is no need to keep up with magaizines and wait for months for holsters or any of the other doo-hickey's that you collect for autoloaders.
So, for the past year I have been mainly practicing with a 442 that I picked up a while back. My EDC is a 342 (Scandium/titanium) worked over by Karl Sokol. But my training gun is a 642 with an xs tritium front sight also installed by Sokol.
I am going to keep a log of my training and round count with the 642. Basically to entertain myself but also to see if any of the information I stumble upon is useful to anyone else.
As of today the 642 has 370rounds through it. 300rounds wwb 130 grain and 50 rounds of +p 158 grain lawman. I also ran 20 rounds of 135 grain gold dot.
I typically carry my 342 in my pocket so that is how I do all my drills. I usually practice like this.
1. 1,2,3 shot sets draw at 21 feet.
2. 1,2,3 shot sets draw and fire while walking backwards.
3. 1,2,3 forwards.
4. 1,2,3 sideways in both directions.
5. Box drills
6. Strong and weak hand drills.
7. 25 yards groups
8. Hail Mary shots at 50 and 100 yards.
I use HKS speed loaders for all reloads.
http://m.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/8041939219/lightbox/
This goes totally against the high capacity semi auto doctrine. :)
You should talk to Claude Werner about your training routine. He has developed numerous practice regimens for the J frame.
I have shot grouse in the head with a Smith model 37 aluminum frame 2". THe grouse were not flying though.
Hate to nit pick but when mentioning cost and needs you list a spare mag for the Glock which arguably isn't needed under the same thought process of 5 shots of the J-frame, $200 for a J-frame which isn't the case especially when you get into the air-weights and certain models (which can be $900+) and once you ad on the crimson trace grips that is even more money.
Not a big deal and I do agree that a J-frame in the pocket is better then a semi at home but it does seem your holding the semi-autos to higher standards then their bare minimal requirements and then comparing it to a better end J-frame at the low end of pricing. Just a little apples to oranges.
One thing about semis being out of battery, when it comes to double action revolvers they also can end up not firing in close contact such as someone grabbing it and putting pressure on the cylinder. Just something I think gets over looked if your talking about a power struggle for control of a gun.
Good post but those things just stood out to me, well that and I always want a holster.
Really looking forward to following this. I enjoyed your Glock 26 thread so much I went out and bought one.
I already have a j frame with a crimson trace laser grip so I probably should go ahead and get a set of .38 dies so I can shoot mine more often.
Your primary argument (that people will actually carry a j frame) only holds weight with those that wouldn't otherwise carry a larger gun.
I carry either a full size M&P or M&P Shield every day. I never walk out the door thinking either of those guns are too impractical, and on the few occasions where I don't carry, having a J frame available wouldn't have changed that (I also have a P32 available to carry, typically as a BUG).
Not that I have a problem with people carrying such guns, if it's what you want then have at it, it's certainly better then no gun at all (or a lot of the cheap Saturday night specials some people like to carry...). But I don't agree that it's "the best all-around gun for the average civillian", or that typical autoloaders are impractical for said group. It's the best gun for those that won't carry anything else, and that's about it.
Very well written and I agree 100%.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-01-12, 18:30
Hate to nit pick but when mentioning cost and needs you list a spare mag for the Glock which arguably isn't needed under the same thought process of 5 shots of the J-frame, $200 for a J-frame which isn't the case especially when you get into the air-weights and certain models (which can be $900+) and once you ad on the crimson trace grips that is
My Airweight cost 359. All the add on stuff like night sights, lasers, etc costs money just like it does on the Glock.
One thing about semis being out of battery, when it comes to double action revolvers they also can end up not firing in close contact such as someone grabbing it and putting pressure on the cylinder. Just something I think gets over looked if your talking about a power struggle for control of a gun.
Good point
Nephrology
10-01-12, 18:38
My Airweight cost 359. All the add on stuff like night sights, lasers, etc costs money just like it does on the Glock.
Mine was 289 :D
I gotta say, while I love my J frame, really the only thing it does well is pocket carry. I have an AIWB belt holster for it, but it really isn't significantly bulkier in profile than my G26 with the 10rd mag. The grip is actually a little shorter than the boot grips on my J frame, too....
I hear ya with your central argument - not everyone can pack a G17 + Weaponlight + 2 spare mags every day - but I think you can draw a happy medium. AIWB has totally changed the comfort and concealability with which I carry a pistol, and unless it's over 90 degrees, I don't have a problem concealing a Glock 26 on my waistline. Once we get below 75 and I can begin to wear a light jacket, the G19 becomes a piece of cake.
Tossing a J-frame in your pocket is easy, sure - and I've done it before and will keep doing it for some time - but there is a saying about "comforting" and "comfortable." And as it stands, I find it FAR easier to put rounds where I want them with any of my 9mm glocks, the 26 included. Maybe I just suck, but 5 shots with my J frame begins to seem like VERY little when I review my ability to actually hit the target with it....
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-01-12, 19:16
The problem is that almost everyone I know, even the most die hard of gun guys, starts leaving his gun behind after a while. If it involves threading on holsters, or sitting in a car with an iwb tearing up their side and their interior, they eventually quit. Of course I would prefer to have a P30. It is much easier to shoot--but only if I have it. It is true, the jframe does nothing better than other guns except actually be with you. I have been carrying for 21 years now. Early on I carried a P7, sig 229s, etc. I have carried full size 1911, especially during the winter. But as the years have gone on I have focused on guns like the glock 26, Kahr pm9 and now the j frame.
managed to break mine in a bout 900 rounds plus tons of dryfire (close to 5000 probably on dryfire) hammer pin busted. Smith replaced the frame. I don't really dry fire it anymore. Luckily I've got some mastery of the trigger now.
Look forward to reading more - there are times a j-frame is all you can carry.
Skyugo - what happened?
Nephrology
10-01-12, 21:53
managed to break mine in a bout 900 rounds plus tons of dryfire (close to 5000 probably on dryfire) hammer pin busted. Smith replaced the frame. I don't really dry fire it anymore. Luckily I've got some mastery of the trigger now.
Disappointing to hear. What model was yours? a -2?
Disappointing to hear. What model was yours? a -2?
642_1I did, no bull dry fire the crap out of that gun though.I'm confident that they are good for easily 5000 trigger pulls. Smith was very fast on the warranty, no questions asked. Seems tighter and smoother than ever since getting it back.
"The problem is that almost everyone I know, even the most die hard of gun guys, starts leaving his gun behind after a while. "
Guess they really were not true hard corps gun guys... While the gun is just a tool, I'd much rather have a more effective, capable, and efficient tool when it comes to lifesaving equipment. Having carried/used/been qualified on various handguns since 1986, I can truthfully say the smallest I have any desire to carry on a routine basis is a G19/M&P9c size--pistols of this type work in virtually all attire I use, including suits, casual, and even beach wear with a T-shirt. Heck, I had no problems carrying a 5" 1911 for over two decades, so now a G19 is a piece of cake to tote around.
Crow Hunter
10-02-12, 13:07
I have been kinda of thinking about this too.
I can conceal a G19/G26 fairly easily. I even did it for a week in New Orleans in 107 Degree weather all day long doing all the interesting historical stuff while my wife was in a conference.
However, I can't carry at work (risk of termination) and if I have to stop somewhere on the way home, I have to adapt what I am wearing to carrying my G19, but if I could just slip something into my pocket and grab a loaf of bread it would be much simpler.
If it was concealed enough, maybe even carry it at work. Dress code and what I do would make me print a lot. Something in a pocket/ankle, probably not.
I had a S&W 640 with a 2 1/8" bbl (I think) back years ago and it was nearly as heavy as my G26 and I couldn't see carrying something that weighed that much with only 5 rounds and a slow reload and much more difficult for me to shoot.
Please keep us posted.
Especially drill times/accuracy.
Crow Hunter, I'm like you. Dress code at work and work policy preclude anything on my waist. I wear slacks, tucked in shirt, no coat, no other options. If I want to be armed while on the job (for more than a day), I need either a Smart Carry or an ankle rig.
The Smart Carry lets me carry something bigger (like my G26), but I spend a lot of time sitting in my car and getting in and out, and the Smart Carry is not as comfortable under these conditions. Also slower to draw from while seated and belted.
An ankle rig is very comfortable and very concealable. I've tried to carry my G26 this way, and it works, but my j-frame prints less.
Nothing but a j-frame is not my first choice, but sometimes it's the best choice.
Littlelebowski
10-02-12, 17:01
Guess they really were not true hard corps gun guys... While the gun is just a tool, I'd much rather have a more effective, capable, and efficient tool when it comes to lifesaving equipment. Having carried/used/been qualified on various handguns since 1986, I can truthfully say the smallest I have any desire to carry on a routine basis is a G19/M&P9c size--pistols of this type work in virtually all attire I use, including suits, casual, and even beach wear with a T-shirt. Heck, I had no problems carrying a 5" 1911 for over two decades, so now a G19 is a piece of cake to tote around.
This......
My Airweight cost 359. All the add on stuff like night sights, lasers, etc costs money just like it does on the Glock.
True, I was just pointing it out because you seemed to be painting something like a Glock as becoming more expensive once you factor in mags and other accessories but the J-Frame seemed more hush hush on added costs like speed loaders, new grips, etc don't add money. Not a big deal but if a lesser informed person were to read it they may get the wrong idea about costs.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-02-12, 18:01
Realistically though, most folks don't live and work in environments where all day carry of combat auto loaders is a practical proposition. Most folks do it for a while, but after time passes the gun ends up in the glove compartment most of the time. I guess you can conceal a a 10 inch AR or Mac 10 in a brief case if you are hard core enough.
Nephrology
10-02-12, 18:39
Realistically though, most folks don't live and work in environments where all day carry of combat auto loaders is a practical proposition. Most folks do it for a while, but after time passes the gun ends up in the glove compartment most of the time. I guess you can conceal a a 10 inch AR or Mac 10 in a brief case if you are hard core enough.
The reductivist argument can go to the extreme in either direction, though. There are so many variables at play that it's impossible to prescribe "the best" gun for any one individual.
I own a 9mm glock in each frame size (FS, C, SC) and the J frame. They all end up on my hip at one point or another during the year. Case in point - in the last 24 hours, I have been in several NPEs in which I opted for either teh G26 or the J Frame. This evening on my way to grab takeout I took along the G19 + TLR1 in an OWB rig. In each instance I felt it took minimal effort to "gun up," minimal effort to conceal (relative to the environment), and felt that I had maximized my personal security to the best of my ability while simultaneously minimized the chance of being made. In each instance, I went with the most gun I could without compromising my comfort or concealability.
I think the trouble with prescribing the J-frame as the "best all around gun for the average civilian" is that as firearms they really sacrifice a lot in the way of shootability and capacity. I would most definitely not feel comfortable if the J frame was my only sidearm. I have the luxury of owning a variety of pistols that I can carry, but if I had to select only one of them to keep with me at all times, I probably wouldn't pick the J frame... come winter time, it actually might be even more of a hassle to carry adequately than my G19. Pocket carry or IWB carry while wearing gloves in -10 degree weather does not make for a very good drawstroke...
edit: I also don't happen to agree with DocGKR that there is no alternative to carrying a G19 sized pistol. There are absolutely occasions where I simply cannot (ever tried jogging with a G19 in a belly band? it doesn't work) and would prefer 5 shots to 0. I would hardly describe myself as an expert at much outside of confocal microscopy (maybe), but I am happy to not have to worry about whether or not I'll be able to carry to a particular location in particular conditions - the only question I have to answer is "which one?"
You mention getting a spare mag for a semi auto. If you are OK with the capacity of a J frame, I doubt you need a spare mag with a semi since you would have to reload a j frame 3 time when compared with the capacity of many semi autos.
I like j-frames, they are about the only revolver that interests me. I have never really cared for the grips or trigger pull on most revolvers but that is probably because I was brought up on semi autos.
"ever tried jogging with a G19 in a belly band? it doesn't work"
Works for me--running, hiking, skiing, biking, etc...
Crow Hunter
10-02-12, 20:33
I was thinking about this in the context of "layers".
I would like to find a gun that I can carry with me no matter what mode of dress I am forced into and that would be invisible enough that I could carry at work and not get fired even when I have to sit in front of people/bending over or laying down to get better views of test units. When we are doing these tests, where I normally carry a gun is directly in the line of sight of people who are watching my every move in an effort to "lawyer" their way out of potentially failing test results.
Then the next layer would be what I would carry if I can dress appropriately while still retaining the original 1st layer as a backup.
With the final layer being a offensive weapon of some type for they oft dreamt of but never happening zombie apocalypse.:rolleyes:
What I have been mulling over in my mind is:
Layer 1 - S&W 642 or 442 pocket/ankle carry, the always gun.
Layer 2 - G19 (what I normally carry when I can)
Layer 3 - My AR
I tried doing the G26 as Layer 1, but it never has worked out. While I can and do pocket carry it at times (in a kydex holster and cargo shorts), it is somewhat obvious that there is something big and heavy in my front pocket.
I have also tried ankle carry, it was just a little too square and printed and I would really need to get something that weighed almost the same on my "off leg" to keep me from developing a weird gait. (I walk a lot at work including on our company walking track during my lunch break)
So I am really thinking about taking the plunge and getting a J-frame. I have fired a couple of cylinders out of one before, and it felt like I got a bad hit with an aluminum bat (stung).
I am hoping that was because of my being used to the heavier weight of the 640 and not using good form and I have read the addition of CTC grips can help mitigate the discomfort somewhat.
So thanks for doing the testing and let us know how it is going.
(And if I am way off track here.)
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-02-12, 20:42
Honestly, the more you shoot it the less the recoil is an issue. I think a lot of autoloader folks grip them wrong (myself included). Still, my 342 weighs 11 oz and is a bitch.
Nephrology
10-02-12, 20:52
Works for me--running, hiking, skiing, biking, etc...
I find that it "bounces" too much in a belly band. I managed to carry a Ruger LCP in a belly band as it has minimal mass.
I find the J frame model 60 to be my go to gun when I am out and about. I live in an area with a fairly low crime rate, no drive by shootings and no nuts sticking up gas stations and pizza joints. I carry daily and nightly and the M60 give me a sense of safety. My M60 is chambered in 357. Now when I go out of town, My 1911 goes with me. When I train I train with both, When I pick up the gun my hand forms the grip to the gun, my finger knows it's place on the trigger for each gun. Muscle memory and training are important to develop confidence with your weapons. We carry what we carry for our own reasons we need not justify what we carry. As has been said often if your going to a gun fight take a gun.
domestique
10-04-12, 22:06
I recently bought a brand new 442 (no internal lock) to compliment my full size 1911, M&P’s and M&P compact. I work in a hospital setting where carrying on the job would be grounds for immediate termination, not to mention going into and out of MRI would be a huge hassle. The 442 lets me slip the j-frame into my scrub pocket for times between my job and home (getting gas, running errands etc.). I also like being able to wear my 442 when doing yard work in my front pocket (less of a chance of branches etc. catching on my IWB).
The majority of the time I try to wear a M&P full size or compact in 9mm IWB. Before the 442 I would use a smart carry holster when dress code wasn’t ideal for IWB carry. But I never got comfortable with carrying the M&Ps with a round in the chamber in the smart carry (no safety). My 1911 was no problem. I also didn’t like the slow draw sequence the smart carry required.
When I have a cover garment or baggy clothes I prefer IWB, when I’m in-between my day job or doing yard work I love the ease of putting my 442 in my front pocket. Lounging around home in sweatpants or athletic shorts is also where the 442 shines….. I prefer not to wear a gun belt 24/7 when I am on the couch relaxing.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-07-12, 16:11
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/8064374091
250 additional rounds today. Not that bad! Apparantly the nerves in my hand have just given up. Also, I mounted some crimson trace grips on the 642 which are much easier on the hands than the factory setup (rubber pad across backstrap).
Basically I ran a wild combination of my usual drills. I did some timer drills drawing from my pocket. Unfortunately the avg from my pocket holster to hit within a six inch circle is 1.87. In my defense, this is from a pocket draw.
Even worse are my reloads which are taking 7 plus second from empty to next shot. No Jerry miculek I.
On the humorous side I was able to hit the old 8 inch plate at 100 yards.
I was happy to find that the laser was dead on with 158 gr right out of the box. It was visible in the daylight so I did some box drills with it which were fairly easy.
The fun continues!
brushy bill
10-07-12, 21:19
Greg, what is total rd count for us math challenged types? I'm curious how one of these newer j frames will hold up. Thanks for this thread.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-07-12, 22:25
620 so far
http://www.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/8064374091
250 additional rounds today. Not that bad! Apparantly the nerves in my hand have just given up. Also, I mounted some crimson trace grips on the 642 which are much easier on the hands than the factory setup (rubber pad across backstrap).
Basically I ran a wild combination of my usual drills. I did some timer drills drawing from my pocket. Unfortunately the avg from my pocket holster to hit within a six inch circle is 1.87. In my defense, this is from a pocket draw.
Even worse are my reloads which are taking 7 plus second from empty to next shot. No Jerry miculek I.
On the humorous side I was able to hit the old 8 inch plate at 100 yards.
I was happy to find that the laser was dead on with 158 gr right out of the box. It was visible in the daylight so I did some box drills with it which were fairly easy.
The fun continues!
ouch shooting factory ammo?
I've switched to trail boss powder behind lead. I load it near the max for trail boss, but it still stings less than basically any factory ammo i've tried. I've done 150 rounds of it in a sitting. Sore hands, but not excessively so.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-08-12, 07:40
Yep. Really wasn't as bad as I expected.
in my daily work environment the only thing I feel 100% comfortable with as a daily carry that must always 100% be totally concealed is a j frame on an ankle. I have never had issue one with the gun and it does get shot- a minimum of a box a month not to mention dry fire and lots of practice draws to stay proficient with the ankle rig. The gun is a all steel smith 36 made in the 1960's. except for putting on some "boot" style grips nothing has been done to it. I have been on this use/carry schedule for around 25 years. so to do the math it means this gun has seen over 12 thousand rounds since I have been carrying it, and my father(RIP) carried it for 20 years before me. No modifications, no spring replacement no fuss. Most smith wheel guns made before world war two will run 100% with no issues. Not an auto out there that can stand up like that
FWIW, I don't find I notice the slightly heavier steel frame in the ankle rig at all, and would rather have the all steel for long term use and a lot of shooting (which mine has obviously done)
My usual loads are 158LRN's loaded to equal standard non plus p factory loads, and non plus p gold dot 125 hp's for carry.
Yep. Really wasn't as bad as I expected.
what's your grip technique? i wrap my left thumb behind and get as high on the grip as possible. it basically recoils straight back with very little muzzle flip. just pounds my right palm a bit which is where the pain comes in with higher round counts. I use the factory rubber grips with the bare metal backstrap.
Works for me--running, hiking, skiing, biking, etc...
What gun/holster combo do you carry for swimming?
I run a G26 or G34 daily, but still keep an LCR357 for those trips to the stop & rob. Love those Karl Sokol guns! I had a few done by Mike LaRocca back in the day. They are beauties! I wish someone did the same for the LCR. I sold off my j-frames after a few thousand through the LCR's in 22, 38, & 357. I found the triggers to be better and the Hogue grips that come on the LCR's are vastly superior to everything I ever had on a J for dealing with magnum & +P recoil.
Took a few snubby classes from Mike deBethencourt and I am comfortable with my snubby skills. He had us do a walk back drill all the way to 100 yards with our snubs!
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-22-12, 13:34
Knocked out another 50 rounds. I have been on vacation and only had enough time to sneak in an extra 50. Obviously not much of an update but IT IS WHAT IT IS.
GHB
Greg,
We have an assortment of about 30 different J-Frames that we issue as back-ups. By policy, disassembly and any other kind of maintenance or repair, to include changing the grips are forbidden by policy. Something falls off or breaks, it gets sent back to NFTTU for repair. Therefore, the kind of failures we see are things like screws falling out of the sideplate, cylinder release bottoms coming off, etc. Little things that a dab or too of Lock-Tite would have prevented kind of stuff.
That said, are you doing, or have you performed any preventive measures to prevent the issues that I describe above?
On my own, I've put 1,000 rounds through my 340PD in the past 10 months. The issues that I see? The PD titanium cylinder does not like to let go of spent casings when dirty and hot and the Hogue grips interfere with the use of speedloaders when trying to work a reload quickly (that and my butterfingers) but that is about it. My 340PD has been flawless.
Anxious to hear more about your J-Frame.
K
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-23-12, 21:25
I ditched the hogue grips for the laser grips. No doubt, the laser grips are much better for speed loaders.
So far I haven't had any screws come loose. But I did have that pop up with my 442.
Magic_Salad0892
10-24-12, 19:02
I ditched the hogue grips for the laser grips. No doubt, the laser grips are much better for speed loaders.
So far I haven't had any screws come loose. But I did have that pop up with my 442.
How do grips effect speed loading, Greg?
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-24-12, 19:21
With the HKS speedloaders the rubber grips rub a bit.
GrandPooba
10-24-12, 20:20
How do grips effect speed loading, Greg?
the grip gets in the way of some speedloaders preventing you from aligning it straight down into the cylinder
Back in the day when coppers started using speedloaders instead of loops or dump pouches finding grips, or modding the grips you had, to function with speedloaders was a very big deal.
There are lots of grips that will cause a speedloader to bind up when trying to do the reload, especially at speed when you don't have everything lined up perfectly.
Magic_Salad0892
10-26-12, 00:17
Thanks, guys.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-28-12, 19:05
100 more rounds today. 50 rounds of very light lead federal. I noticed I am getting ridiculously high up on the grip. I noticed that the xs sight pretty much hits poa/poi if you really sink the dot deep in the notch. I am now about 90% as accurate as with my M&P 40. I can keep all my rounds inside a sheet of paper even with all my moving and weak hand drills.
Are you using Jerry Miculek's J frame grip? I stumbled upon holding the gun this way but I think he thought of it first. Second picture from the bottom.
http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK2/miculek2.html
I'd submit that the phrase "all you really need" actually means "the bare minimum requirements for a defensive pistol".
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-08-12, 06:49
970 rounds so far. Should blow. Through 100o round mark today.
Just qualified a group in which there are several J-frames as primary off duty guns, or BUGs. Effective even in novice hands at bad-breath distances, and all were able to complete simple COFs with minimal difficulty. The steel guns are shooter-friendly, the aluminum more carry friendly. There is little interest in the scandiums and lighter.
The Apex Duty/Carry kit is a worthy modification: https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid49.html
Deliberate J-frame practice should be a part of regular range sessions.
Suwannee Tim
11-09-12, 16:45
I have shot grouse in the head with a Smith model 37 aluminum frame 2". THe grouse were not flying though.
I've wing shot them with a J frame. While paddling a canoe on the Suwannee River at night. Wait a sec. 500 is banned? Seriously ya'll I really didn't shoot a grouse.
I have carried a J frame then a LCR for years. I have a 22 caliber J to practice with. My wife carries a steel frame J. I agree with Gregg in every respect. The highest capacity, most powerful, coolest, most combat effective semi-auto made is not worth a damn if it is at home.
What did 500grains do to get banned?
Suwannee Tim
11-10-12, 19:56
970 rounds so far. Should blow. Through 100o round mark today.
What do you expect the failure mode to be? I expect you would see more and more lead spitting. I have never heard of a revolver blowing up due to excessive wear.
Open the cylinder and turn the gun upside down. Look where the barrel screws into the frame. When the cylinder is closed the top of the crane goes against this part of the frame.
This will eventually get a crack. The good news is that if the gun is sent back to Smith and Wesson they will fix it by replacing the gun with a new one.
They make this part of the frame way too thin and cracking there is pretty common.
Open the cylinder and turn the gun upside down. Look where the barrel screws into the frame. When the cylinder is closed the top of the crane goes against this part of the frame.
This will eventually get a crack. The good news is that if the gun is sent back to Smith and Wesson they will fix it by replacing the gun with a new one.
They make this part of the frame way too thin and cracking there is pretty common.
Please elaborate. How common? After how many rounds? What kind of rounds? Documentation?
I've seen a few photos of cracked frames, but considering how many j-frames are out there, and many of these are owned and carried by people who actually train with and shoot them, if there were a serious issue with cracked frames, I would have expected more internet chatter.
Not saying you're wrong, I would just like to know how serious the issue may be. Are we talking Glock 40 S&W kaboom hysteria or something to actually be concerned about?
I don't have exact numbers, But it's fairly common with the Alloy frame 38 cal J frames. Perhaps the use of +P ammo moves this along. It's not a KB situation. The frame cracks at that thin point of the frame where the barrel screws in. I'm sure the gun would work fine and still be safe in that condition.
Smith and Wessons reply to this problem is to just send the Customer a new gun. It's actually cheaper for them to do that than fix it.
I own a 442. I feed it +P only acouple of cylinder fulls a year and carry +P in it. I check that area when the gun gets cleaned after shooting and I don't stay up nights thinking about it.
I've seen a few photos of cracks in the curved area above the serial number - directly in line with the crane, but never even heard of cracks where you describe.
I hope any cracked frame is the result of a lot of shooting, especially hot loads, rather than a weak design where the manufacturer decides it's cheaper to replace than prevent.
I don't expect a gun to last forever, but I do expect them to last through many thousands of rounds of the hottest ammo they are rated for.
PriseDeFer
11-14-12, 09:23
There are a lot of 642's sold every year. What ever is meant by "fairly common" doesn't appear to be happening fairly commonly.
Replacing guns under a lifetime warranty is not a cheap and trivial thing for a company.
Suwannee Tim
11-15-12, 17:09
........I don't expect a gun to last forever, but I do expect them to last through many thousands of rounds of the hottest ammo they are rated for.
That may be unrealistic for an alloy J frame. Very few people shoot their J that much myself included.
That may be unrealistic for an alloy J frame. Very few people shoot their J that much myself included.
I have been running a 100rds a month through my 340PD.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-16-12, 07:48
We shall see. I have no intent to terminate this test until the gun is trash.
We shall see. I have no intent to terminate this test until the gun is trash.
If you trash your carry gun what will you carry?
I guess I don't understand the point of testing until destruction when we are dealing with personal property that I had to pay for (if that is indeed what you are talking about).
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-16-12, 19:30
I have two carry J-frames right now. I have a Scandium .38 that has the Sokol magic and an Aluminum one with the same set up. I am shooting the Aluminum one to destruction because the Scandium .38s are getting hard to find and it is lighter than the 357 Sc gun. Plus Scandium sucks donkey balls to shoot.
As far as shooting the guns to death, I like shooting. I have no interest in safe queens and I am curious to see how long the J-frame will last.
Scandium sucks donkey balls to shoot.
Awwwh, you get used to it. If I ever break my 340PD I'll be buying a new one on the way home from the range.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-17-12, 07:04
It is worth the pain. But I ain't shooting it 100-200 rounds a week!
See below.
Guys,
For the past few years I have spent less and less time playing with autoloading handguns. My main problem with them is that they are, frankly, impractical for every day civillian carry. I still play with my .45s and my plastic guns but I never carry them.
Basically, here is my reasoning (from a post of mine last year).
I think the J-frame in airweight format is probably the best all-around gun for the average civillian. Here is why:
Best all-around is too subjective to claim. Too many variables.
1. Very simple. The Revolver has no safety, no movable sights, no dropable magazines, nothing. Just a gun that you can drop in your pocket and go.
Pocket carry sucks for me, but can't argue simplicity. Reloads with revolver are tougher under stress for joe civilian in my opinion.
2. Very reliable. While the myth of the unstoppable revolver is BS, it is true that a revolver is more likely to go off when you pull the trigger. Any number of factors from being out of battery due to close contact, empty chamber, jam, missing magazine, etc can curse your autoloader, the J-frame will work in all of the these cicumstances--and if the cylinder is empty keep squeezing.
In high stress situation I would rather see/hear the slide locking back where I might be apt to keep squeezing trigger with empty cylinder on the revolver. Then again I will need to reload 1/3 as often as revolver.
3. Reasonable cost. Autoloaders are pricey. A Glock 19 is going to run most folks around $520. You are going to need a rigid holster (at least a fobus) and probably at least another spare mag or two. A J-frame will run you $100-200 cheaper.
Money's not an issue and if it were, I would never put a price on my life or others. One should never purchase ccw weapon based on price, ever.
4. You can throw out the price difference buy purchasing a set of crimson trace laser grips. This is, in the words of LAV, a no brainer fro the J-frame. The laser grip is absolutely perfect for this type of gun. You can practice dry-firing, shooting on the move, barrier shots, etc using the crimson trace grips and save a LOT of time and money at the range. This is especially nice for folks who don't have a range where they can practice practical shooting.
Lasers will shit the bed, so I would never base my training around a laser. Too many people ccw weapons with lasers that have poor skills and think they are Chris Costa because they have a laser. I would never encourage someone to use a laser without first mastering the weapon with irons.
5. Five shots is a serious limitation. I do agree with those who say that 5 shots is the scary minimum. But I do think that the fact that you are much more likely to actually CARRY an ultra-lightweight revolver makes up for a combat autoloader in the glove compartment because you didn't feel like putting it back on before you went in the store.
Cylinder width on model 36 is 1.31" and my G19 is 1.18". A j-frame is no easier to carry for me than revolver. Why would I remove my weapon from my person and put it in the glove box? There may be a 2nd or 3rd weapon in the glove box. This is subjective because those committed to concealed carry always have their weapon.
6. Simplicity (again). A J-frame is really all you need. A simple nylon pocket holster is preferable, but not absolutely needed. You can just put it in your coat pocket (and shoot through it if need be). There is no need to keep up with magaizines and wait for months for holsters or any of the other doo-hickey's that you collect for autoloaders.
Pocket carry sucks for me and I will make the claim that joe civilian will draw weapon easier from IWB holster than pocket.
So, for the past year I have been mainly practicing with a 442 that I picked up a while back. My EDC is a 342 (Scandium/titanium) worked over by Karl Sokol. But my training gun is a 642 with an xs tritium front sight also installed by Sokol.
I am going to keep a log of my training and round count with the 642. Basically to entertain myself but also to see if any of the information I stumble upon is useful to anyone else.
As of today the 642 has 370rounds through it. 300rounds wwb 130 grain and 50 rounds of +p 158 grain lawman. I also ran 20 rounds of 135 grain gold dot.
I typically carry my 342 in my pocket so that is how I do all my drills. I usually practice like this.
1. 1,2,3 shot sets draw at 21 feet.
2. 1,2,3 shot sets draw and fire while walking backwards.
3. 1,2,3 forwards.
4. 1,2,3 sideways in both directions.
5. Box drills
6. Strong and weak hand drills.
7. 25 yards groups
8. Hail Mary shots at 50 and 100 yards.
I use HKS speed loaders for all reloads.
http://m.flickr.com/photos/52942291@N00/8041939219/lightbox/
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-17-12, 19:07
Pocket carry sucks for me, but can't argue simplicity. Reloads with revolver are tougher under stress for joe civilian in my opinion.
Reloads are probably no harder for most folks since your average person probably doesn't carry a spare mag. If you are Joe tactical and carry a couple of spare mags on your Raven mag carrier then obviously you are going to be much faster.
In high stress situation I would rather see/hear the slide locking back where I might be apt to keep squeezing trigger with empty cylinder on the revolver. Then again I will need to reload 1/3 as often as revolver.
Both have their limitations.
Money's not an issue and if it were, I would never put a price on my life or others. One should never purchase ccw weapon based on price, ever.
True. That's why I employ 6 former Delta operators to protect me at all times.
L
asers will shit the bed, so I would never base my training around a laser. Too many people ccw weapons with lasers that have poor skills and think they are Chris Costa because they have a laser. I would never encourage someone to use a laser without first mastering the weapon with irons.
Lasers shit the bed. Front sights shit the bed. Glocks (increasingly so) shit the bed. Mags split. Springs fail. Ammo Kabooms. Ammo falls apart in the mag. Lighting strikes.
A laser is a useful tool. It is basically something you can train with when live fire is not a realistic possibility. It is also useful for people who wear glasses and use them on their beside the bed weapons. It is also useful because it allows you to shoot from unusual positions. Their advantages wildly outweigh their disadvantages.
ylinder width on model 36 is 1.31" and my G19 is 1.18". A j-frame is no easier to carry for me than revolver. Why would I remove my weapon from my person and put it in the glove box? There may be a 2nd or 3rd weapon in the glove box. This is subjective because those committed to concealed carry always have their weapon.
If you find an air weight J-frame no easier to carry than a Glock 19 then we are simply operating in different universes.
My point is, the vast majority of adults who have lives cannot carry combat autoloaders in IWB holsters 24/7. Not only are they heavy and bulky they will likely result in job-loss for most folks. OTOH, a Scandium J-frame in a concealment pocket holster is light enough and small enough for most people to protect themselves full time. I have been carrying for about 22 years now and I have gone through all the phases. But reality eventually sets in.
Pocket carry sucks for me and I will make the claim that joe civilian will draw weapon easier from IWB holster than pocket.
True. He would also be faster from a competition holster. In fact, you could just walk around with your gun in your hand if you were truly dedicated.
http://www.theonion.com/video/new-law-legalizes-brandishing-guns-at-head-level-s,26085/
Most employers that I know do not allow ccw anyway. I honestly think I conceal better IWB as an engineer daily than I would with a bulge in my pocket. Maybe the ladies think your happy to see them with your 442 in your pocket.
Your comments about parts failing I do understand, however, Batteries wear out more often than mags fail or springs fail, etc... Maybe your team of CAG operators can do a tactical battery swap before I can change my mag that spontaneously combusted in the magwell, but I doubt it.
As far as being heavy and bulky, my choice of footwear on a daily basis would be a far greater weight concern than j-frame vs glock.
I'm glad you enjoy your revolver as much as I do my glock. We will never be fighting over handguns that way. The way Washington is right now, we may be disputing topics such as little Debbie vs hostess in the near future. Oh shit, that doesn't apply because there will be no more twinkles.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-17-12, 20:07
Maybe the ladies think your happy to see them with your 442 in your pocket.
Damn straight.
Your comments about parts failing I do understand, however, Batteries wear out more often than mags fail or springs fail, etc... Maybe your team of CAG operators can do a tactical battery swap before I can change my mag that spontaneously combusted in the magwell, but I doubt it.
I have them change the batteries hourly.
As far as being heavy and bulky, my choice of footwear on a daily basis would be a far greater weight concern than j-frame vs glock.
Only if you don't carry all day.
I'm glad you enjoy your revolver as much as I do my glock.
The Jframe is by far my least favorite handgun to shoot (that I own). But a gun in the pocket beats the hell out of a Glock in the car.
Most employers that I know do not allow ccw anyway. I honestly think I conceal better IWB as an engineer daily than I would with a bulge in my pocket.
A good tip is to take your pants to a tailor and have him deepen the pocket. This way it prints less. In fact, most pants as they are sold from the stores won't handle a j-frame.
I have two carry J-frames right now. I have a Scandium .38 that has the Sokol magic and an Aluminum one with the same set up. I am shooting the Aluminum one to destruction because the Scandium .38s are getting hard to find and it is lighter than the 357 Sc gun. Plus Scandium sucks donkey balls to shoot.
As far as shooting the guns to death, I like shooting. I have no interest in safe queens and I am curious to see how long the J-frame will last.
I guess I wonder if shooting an aluminum frame J Frame 50-100 rounds a week of standard velocity .38 will destroy it. I imagine it will happen some time, but I think it will take a while.
Pocket carry is an excellent concealment option for non-permissive environments, and is a great compromise solution for concealability and accessibility. Most drastically overestimate the visibility of the bulk.
J-frames are perfect in this role.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-17-12, 20:48
Ed,
I agree. It should take a while. At 1000 the gun feels the same as new. Some folks claim air weights can't even take 1000 rounds. BS.
A good tip is to take your pants to a tailor and have him deepen the pocket. This way it prints less. In fact, most pants as they are sold from the stores won't handle a j-frame.
I agree. My typical dockers barely hold my keys and phone. I know for a fact I'm not pocket carrying with cowboy cut wranglers. I feel that any gun small enough to pocket carry with conventional pants is not worth carrying (Kel tec, lcp, etc...).
Ed,
Some folks claim air weights can't even take 1000 rounds. BS.
I put at least ~2000rds (documented) through a 642 over the last ~18 months. It has at least 1000 more than that since I bought it used.
How many people have you guys been shooting lately with the hi cap semi autos?
How many people have you guys been shooting lately with the hi cap semi autos?
Nothing that breathes, but I've shot a hell of a lot of paper zombies. Then I power thrust them with my 12" tanto blade.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-17-12, 23:52
That's how I roll
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-18-12, 13:08
150 more today. Lots of shooting on the move drills with and without laser. Shot some weird 158gr lawmen that looked like rockets.
Do you use speed loaders, speed strips, etc...?
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-18-12, 17:34
I use speed loaders. I actually just drop one in my pocket under the holster on my strong side. I have gotten decent with them over the last few years, but nothing like my mag reloads (which are SMOOTH if I do say so myself).
I also shot 200 rounds of .45 through my 1911. Today. 50 rounds of .38 is worse than 200 rounds of .45 even with the cheese grater grips I have on my Colt.
HeadHunter
11-18-12, 20:01
My typical dockers barely hold my keys and phone.
No one who values their gun rights should be giving money to antigun manufacturers, in this case Levi Strauss, the manufacturer of Dockers.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/814414/posts
No one who values their gun rights should be giving money to antigun manufacturers, in this case Levi Strauss, the manufacturer of Dockers.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/814414/posts
Ten year old out of date info. Since then Levi Strauss has created a foundation with other priorities.
Suwannee Tim
11-19-12, 04:26
I have been running a 100rds a month through my 340PD.
100 rounds a month for how long? What kind of ammo.
100 rounds a month for how long? What kind of ammo.
Speer 125gr +p Gold Dot .38spl., since February. No longer authorized .357mag ammo (I believe for logistical reasons).
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-25-12, 18:02
100 more rounds. low pressure remington.
Greg:
I like your signature :)
In your honor, I shot 5 shots through my 642 this afternoon. I shot it one handed like a real man. :D
Suwannee Tim
11-25-12, 19:56
Greg:
I like your signature :)
In your honor, I shot 5 shots through my 642 this afternoon. I shot it one handed like a real man. :D
Me too. Shooting a handgun with one hand is an anachronism but then again I am an anachronism. I'd rather have a 308 and a 40 but given a 44 magnum and a 30-06 I'm right in my element. There's not a whole lot of real world, suburban America problems that can't be solved with a 30-06 and a 44 magnum.
Magic_Salad0892
11-27-12, 16:18
There's not a whole lot of real problems that can't be solved with a 5.56mm and a 9x19mm.
Fixed. ;)
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-27-12, 17:12
Well, poodle problems.:D
Took a few snubby classes from Mike deBethencourt and I am comfortable with my snubby skills. He had us do a walk back drill all the way to 100 yards with our snubs![/QUOTE]
HaHa, I bet you will get in a lot of shootouts at 100yds.!
My advice.......go with what you will carry every day and if that is a snub......go S&W in a steel frame.No matter what people will tell you........You will shake apart an alloy snub after a while if you actually practice with it.
Macon
Took a few snubby classes from Mike deBethencourt and I am comfortable with my snubby skills. He had us do a walk back drill all the way to 100 yards with our snubs!
That sounds like a blast! I'd love to do a snubby class.
Dirty dirt
12-05-12, 22:38
I carry a sw 340pd airlite everyday. Only holster I can find is an de santis ankle holster . Can't find one that fits my belt good. Im probably going to start packing my glock 23 . Maybe get a mini 40 and try that.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-09-12, 17:34
1700 rounds (plus around 30 loose reloads given to me by a friend.
Gun is smooth. It still locks perfectly and looks pretty new. At the end of each range session I bore snake the barrel and cylinders and use baby wipes to get all the visible nastyness off.
I have been shooting my .22 airweight along side the .38. It is amazing how terrible the trigger on it is compared to the Karl Sokol trigger on my gun. Even after about 4000 rounds the trigger on the .22 is still miserable.
I have been toying with speed strips over speed loaders a little. They are pretty crappy in terms of speed, but obviously they are easier to tote around.
I guess I wonder if shooting an aluminum frame J Frame 50-100 rounds a week of standard velocity .38 will destroy it. I imagine it will happen some time, but I think it will take a while.
I think this is why lots of guru's recommend having 2 guns. One to train, one to carry. No use use abusing your carry peice, especiall if you afford it.
Greg,
Great post. I wish I could afford to take one of my guns and shoot it until it's junk in order to learn just what it can take. We all owe you a debt of thanks.
Do you have an approximate number of +p vs standard pressure so far through your 642?
Five_Point_Five_Six
12-17-12, 09:52
I'd submit that the phrase "all you really need" actually means "the bare minimum requirements for a defensive pistol".
Stolen for sig line material.
I like the j-frame for me because it's the gun I'm more likely to practice with. I had a G-19 for a while that I shot really well, but I sold it off like I have all my other semi-autos. I get rather OCD when it comes to my brass flying about and hitting the ground, enough so that practice sessions quickly become grating. I won't deal with semi-autos, so I go with what I will use. Everyone else can and should go with what they will carry and practice with. I'd extend this to ammo as well. I don't shoot much +P stuff so I don't tend to carry with it, either. It's usually better ammo to be sure, but a hit is better than a miss, and I miss more as of now with the +P stuff.
All that aside, it's interesting to see this thread and how the j-frame holds up!
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-23-12, 21:19
~1850 (some additional lose ammo not included).
Still chugging along like new.
By the way, I am not shooting the gun "to death" like I did in my old "break my" threads. I am actually using a bore snake on the chambers and barrel. And I am using a baby wipe to clean the crud off the exterior.
~1850 (some additional lose ammo not included).
Still chugging along like new.
By the way, I am not shooting the gun "to death" like I did in my old "break my" threads. I am actually using a bore snake on the chambers and barrel. And I am using a baby wipe to clean the crud off the exterior.
Greg,
We just had a 642 this past week lock up on the qual line. Not sure the cause as we are not permitted to perform armorer level tasks but it appeared to be that something was out of position with the cylinder release. The release lever was locked forward in the "release" position, however, the cylinder could neither turn, nor open. The release lever could be moved backwards to the "locked" position. The shooter had just completed a reload and was preparing to engage the target when the pistol stopped shooting. Anyway, I wanted to shoot the info out to you in case you were familiar with the situation as it was one I had not encountered.
K
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-23-12, 21:34
Never heard of that one. But I am a not a revolver expert by any stretch. I am just chronicling my shooting to keep me practicing with my carry gun. I have a bad habit of practicing with my toys (1911s, M&Ps) and letting my actual carry gun sit because it is less fun to shoot (or harder to shoot well).
Greg, How does putting your speedloader in the same pocket as your holster work? I can't imagine changing hands then ripping my holster out of the pocket. Just curious, thanks.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-24-12, 20:13
Good question!
It is easier than it sounds. I use a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster. When you remove the revolver it flattens out. Here is what I do:
I open the cylinder and toss the gun to my support hand. Then I use my support thumb to push down on the ejector and I shake the crap out of the pistol while I am reaching for the speedloader with my strong hand. Don't push down on the ejector more than once, you risk bad ju ju. Then, you just jam your hand in your pocket and get the speed loader. Only very rarely does the holster come out. I use the HKS speed loaders and they are pretty trim.
Greg, I'll try this with my pocket holster. I use an RKBA. It doesn't collapse and it stays in the pocket of my pants. Out of thousands of presentations, its come out once with the gun.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-31-12, 15:35
2000 rounds + ~25
Chugging along nicely. For some reasons my groups are migrating leftward just a bit. Damn 1911 practice!
I dig my MNP 340. Yes, it bucks and I should practice more. I carry it often, but less now that I own a Shield.
Good thread. I'll practice this coming week.
Guinnessman
01-01-13, 10:01
I have been watching this thread since Greg started it, and I am really missing my old J-frame now. I have been currently using a Kahr PM9 for pocket carry, but I really miss the simplicity of a J-frame. The Kahr has been great, but performing manipulations with such a small gun is difficult. The J-frame was way more user friendly IMHO.
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-01-13, 16:05
2100
Rung in the new year with 100 rounds of Remington +P. I have learned that some bullets with soft lead hollowpoints don't work very well with speed loaders. I recommend something fully jacketed like Gold Dots.
I noticed I can now keep all my bullets inside a bowling pin silhouette at 25 yards even while shooting on the move as long as it is front to back. Lateral movement is a bitch but I can still keep it between the shoulders. The J-frame will make you a better shot!
By the way, I do carry this gun every day, all day except when I am in bed. I have noticed whereas I never ever carried a spare mag with my autoloaders, I often toss a speedloader in my pocket now. Of course, it goes in the same pocket, so it doesn't really add anything, but it is interesting to note.
2100
Rung in the new year with 100 rounds of Remington +P. I have learned that some bullets with soft lead hollowpoints don't work very well with speed loaders. I recommend something fully jacketed like Gold Dots.
I noticed I can now keep all my bullets inside a bowling pin silhouette at 25 yards even while shooting on the move as long as it is front to back. Lateral movement is a bitch but I can still keep it between the shoulders. The J-frame will make you a better shot!
By the way, I do carry this gun every day, all day except when I am in bed. I have noticed whereas I never ever carried a spare mag with my autoloaders, I often toss a speedloader in my pocket now. Of course, it goes in the same pocket, so it doesn't really add anything, but it is interesting to note.
Very nice! I put 100rds through mine yesterday, hope to do another 100 by next Tuesday. One of these days I should clean and lube it.
Greg, I'll try this with my pocket holster. I use an RKBA. It doesn't collapse and it stays in the pocket of my pants. Out of thousands of presentations, its come out once with the gun.
Good to hear, glad the holster is working out.:D
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-06-13, 18:49
2200
Small incident. I swapped some 9mm for a bunch of reload .38. It is of, eh, middling quality at best. About 30 rounds in one went Kablewy and blew unburnt powder all over my hands. I am not one hundred percent sure what happened. It may have been a squib but if it was it blew the stuck round out of the gun. No bulge to speak of. Kept shooting and everything was fine.
I am always amazed at how much the POI changes with different loadings, even at 21 feet.
It was a bit overcast so laser training was easy. The more I live fire with the laser the more confident I am that lasers are an extremely valuable tool in the kit. Follow-up shots are very fast.
2200
Small incident. I swapped some 9mm for a bunch of reload .38. It is of, eh, middling quality at best. About 30 rounds in one went Kablewy and blew unburnt powder all over my hands. I am not one hundred percent sure what happened. It may have been a squib but if it was it blew the stuck round out of the gun. No bulge to speak of. Kept shooting and everything was fine.
I am always amazed at how much the POI changes with different loadings, even at 21 feet.
It was a bit overcast so laser training was easy. The more I live fire with the laser the more confident I am that lasers are an extremely valuable tool in the kit. Follow-up shots are very fast.
We just switched from Speer to Winchester loads and I have found I have had to move my POA three inches at 15 yards and six at 25.
Got a little snub work in tonight and burned up some old ammo stock. This 642-1 with its installed Apex kit is one of my EDC guns, with over 2000rds through it.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/MISC/IMG_2818Large.jpg
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-13-13, 22:56
About 30 more rounds of crappy reloads today. Focused on shotguns.
Speer 125gr +p Gold Dot .38spl., since February. No longer authorized .357mag ammo (I believe for logistical reasons).
I sold my 340PD a few months ago. I bought the first one I saw, taking the 642 out of my pocket on the spot to trade. I've carried a G27 for a few years now and the .357 was kicking the snot out of me. The release cut me every time I shot it. But that said I really miss having a centennial, this is the first time in over 20 years I've not had one.
I want another 642 w/0 lock. Of course I can't find one locally but I am not in a huge rush. There is a lady smith in my local shop but it's go the lock.
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-14-13, 09:12
I had a lady smith a few years back. A really sweet shooter. The extra weight really pays off.
The release cut me every time I shot it.
If I'm going to shoot more than a few rounds from a snub, esp a 357, I tape my thumb to prevent getting cut.
I want another 642 w/0 lock. Of course I can't find one locally but I am not in a huge rush. There is a lady smith in my local shop but it's go the lock.
I got the one pictured above in a moment of coincidental good fortune. The no-lock 442s are more plentiful and were run again for awhile, if that's an option for you.
I had a lady smith a few years back. A really sweet shooter. The extra weight really pays off.
I may have to find one of these for my wife. She loves the size of the J-Frame but needs a heavier one for recoil mitigation.
I had a lady smith a few years back. A really sweet shooter. The extra weight really pays off.
Okay so it that the difference it's a full weight gun and not air weight. I used to be more versed on the little JFrames, not so much any more.
If I'm going to shoot more than a few rounds from a snub, esp a 357, I tape my thumb to prevent getting cut.
I got the one pictured above in a moment of coincidental good fortune. The no-lock 442s are more plentiful and were run again for awhile, if that's an option for you.
The 442 is definitely an option, I had one of those too. Man! I started with a 642. Sold it when Colt reintroduced their Detective special, I really wanted that extra round. I did not like the way it carried, the Centennial just rocks for pocket carry. I sold it and bought a 442 which was traded for the 642 I never should have sold.
Now I've come full circle again and want a 642 but the 442 is fine too. They are just so damn light in the pocket and with two speed strips in my off side pocket and one on my belt I have 20 rounds which isn't a bad little package.
Got a little snub work in tonight and burned up some old ammo stock. This 642-1 with its installed Apex kit is one of my EDC guns, with over 2000rds through it.
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/MISC/IMG_2818Large.jpg
You sure did dust off some "old" ammo!
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-20-13, 17:56
100 more rounds of horrid reloads. These things are so bad one will feel like a Cor-Bon and the next one will feel like eastern-block cowboy load/insta squibs.
The XS sight is pretty terrible in conjuction with the standard rear sight. If you try to align them properly you will be shooting about 5 inches low at 21 feet. OTOH, they are so bad you shoot a little faster because you know you aren't going to be doing anything worth photographing.
70rds tonight through my 442 w/ Apex kit. Your thread is a motivator. Finished off the last of the previously posted 3D ammo and broke out a box of Glaser Safety Slugs for gee whiz. I forgot how much they barked.
Shot high and right tonight. Need more dry fire.
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-29-13, 13:28
100 more shabby reloads.
Where do you get primers?
theblackknight
01-29-13, 20:56
Where do you get primers?
I heard powder valley had SPP in today but they prob got panic nabbed
sent from mah gun,using my sights
This is a good thread. I carry a J Frame and a speed strip more often than anything else I carry.
During a practice session at least 20% of my training involves drawing and reloading with only the support hand. You have to plan for any contingency. If you are able to shoot with the strong hand in an actual defensive situation that is a plus, but I believe that practicing with only the support hand makes you a better strong hand shooter so it is a worthwhile endeavor.
Okay so it that the difference it's a full weight gun and not air weight. I used to be more versed on the little JFrames, not so much any more.
The 442 is definitely an option, I had one of those too. Man! I started with a 642. Sold it when Colt reintroduced their Detective special, I really wanted that extra round. I did not like the way it carried, the Centennial just rocks for pocket carry. I sold it and bought a 442 which was traded for the 642 I never should have sold.
Now I've come full circle again and want a 642 but the 442 is fine too. They are just so damn light in the pocket and with two speed strips in my off side pocket and one on my belt I have 20 rounds which isn't a bad little package.
An all steel snubbie shooting a 158 gn hpswc +p is not bad at all. The same ammo in a 442 is ouch what the f , to me. Call me a sissie!
hockeynick39
01-30-13, 05:59
I heard powder valley had SPP in today but they prob got panic nabbed
sent from mah gun,using my sights
Looked at PowderValley Inc. last night and they have a big order and shipping disclaimer. If you order today on an item, it more than likely will not ship until March 5th. If there is a backordered item, you won't be able to order it and if you try, your order will be cancelled. All of these panic buyers are killing stuff:mad:. Had a guy tell me he was going to start reloading because he couldn't find ammo for his AR15, I asked him what the hell he thought made handloads. It finally clicked that it wasn't going to be easy to find ammo or components period. Good luck and stay safe.
My primary backup is a 638 Bodyguard in a Galco Ankle Glove. Only five shots, but I know that it will go bang when I pull the trigger, and if it doesn't, I only have to pull the trigger again. It disappears completely under boot cut jeans, is so comfortable to carry that I often forget that I'm wearing it, and even with the snubby barrel, in SA, I can nail a bottle cap consistently at 30 paces.
Everyone should have a J frame in their collection.
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-30-13, 20:03
Sam,
No primers. Shane traded me some d grade reloads.
It's scary that you use reloads from Shane :)
The Dumb Gun Collector
01-31-13, 21:57
True. I am more likely to break my hand than my J-frame.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-03-13, 17:09
50 more rounds. I did all my drills at 30 feet using a 13 inch wide piece of cardboard as my target. I was pleasantly that I could keep all my shots in TV guide sized group. Do they still make TV guide?
50 more rounds. I did all my drills at 30 feet using a 13 inch wide piece of cardboard as my target. I was pleasantly that I could keep all my shots in TV guide sized group. Do they still make TV guide?
Guess you're going to have to start calling it an iPad-sized group from now on.
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-03-13, 19:22
Maybe Ipad mini!
Maybe Ipad mini!
Samsung S III size.
I've alway been more of a revolver guy when it comes to handguns. I own and shoot semi-autos but have tended as of late to carry my revolvers more. Lately been carrying my GP100 before that my SP101.
It's not that I can't carry my semi-auto or don't like too it's just that I don't . I don't own a handgun that doesn't carry well, all are very easyly carried and comfortable. Tactically I don't see carring a revolver as that much of a disavantage.
Great thread. I have a scandium 360 with CT grips and XS standard dot night sight. Pretty pricy all together, but it packs a good punch with 135gr GD's. My wife carries this everyday, but I would too.
I mainly carry a G36 with 230gr Ranger-T.
EricTheRed
02-06-13, 03:02
Good thread. In for the info. The only revolver I own is a Dan Wesson .44 6". Not a carry piece, although it is pretty fun to shoot. I carry a Shield, but have been looking at a J-frame for a while too, so liking the input.
One question (and I can't remember who brought it up):
There is little interest in the scandiums and lighter
Are people not carrying them for some reason? Or just not shooting them much because they are are PITA to shoot a lot?
GrandPooba
02-06-13, 08:04
Good thread. In for the info. The only revolver I own is a Dan Wesson .44 6". Not a carry piece, although it is pretty fun to shoot. I carry a Shield, but have been looking at a J-frame for a while too, so liking the input.
One question (and I can't remember who brought it up):
Are people not carrying them for some reason? Or just not shooting them much because they are are PITA to shoot a lot?
I do carry a j-frame when I am out exercising or in an environment where I can't get away with carrying something bigger. But there are some real disadvantages that you cannot deny...ammo capacity and reload time being the two big ones.
Shootability is not an issue with my 642. I have Crimson trace grips that have padding on the backstrap. That makes the biggest difference honestly. I can run a few hundred rounds in a single session with no problem. With the stock grip, even 50 rounds was painful.
EricTheRed
02-06-13, 11:42
Thank you. I was referring to the super lightweight ones however. Someone had said that not many people were using those, I believe in a class type context
The Dumb Gun Collector
02-06-13, 18:24
I carry my Scandium gun quite a bit. I have to say though, the real reason the get the Scandium model is that they are better set-up sight wise than the 442. The weight is obvious in the hand but not so munch in the pocket.
While a J-frame has it's place, I disagree that everything else is impractical for civilian legally carrying.
My P2000SK is my EDC, with my 442 and LCP being smaller options is really hot weather.
QuickdrawMcgraw
02-13-13, 09:48
my daily carry in a J frame model 60 with a 3" barrel. I like the gun and I don't feel under gunned. I like the 3" barrel form better sighting and I feel its length helps with point and shoot. I will carry a 3" K frame 686 when I travel a bit heavy but I have carried a 1911 so it's not a problem. I prefer a shoulder holster for most of my carry situations. I guess the point is we carry what we are comfortable with and we feel meets our personal needs.
Been following this thread for a while. I just put a large Hogue monogrip on my 642 and I'm really pleased with it. Huge improvement in control vs the factory boot grips or the wooden Sile grips that I had on it last. Doesnt sacrifice a whole lot of concealability and I'm still able to manage pocket carry if I want to. I've been carrying it much more as a result. I generally keep it AIWB in a Sticky holster.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-03-13, 22:01
150 more rounds. Getting pretty decent with the ol' girl.
callen3615
03-05-13, 21:33
I could definitely see me getting a small j frame.
I find it difficult to dress around a double stack semi auto all the time. I think alot of people on here dont work in a corporate environment where you are wearing slacks, and dress/polo shirts. Such an environment demands deep concealment, most companies dont let their employees carry and printing is asking to be fired.
I wish colt would still produce the D Frame detectives special. I prefer it to the J because
it has six shots, its marginally bigger and I shoot it just as well as a K frame!
Ed Lovette agrees with me so I"m in good company.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-06-13, 16:06
Totally agree. I wish they would start making the Magnum carry again.
Totally agree. I wish they would start making the Magnum carry again.
I wonder why Colt stopped. I mean they are just great guns. They beat the ruger SP series to me. Just don't understand why they stopped. Would you happen to know?
Nephrology
03-06-13, 17:27
I wonder why Colt stopped. I mean they are just great guns. They beat the ruger SP series to me. Just don't understand why they stopped. Would you happen to know?
My total guess is that their business model shifted heavily over to the AR and the military contracts associated with it. but I'm talking out my ass here.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-06-13, 21:06
Colt was in really bad shape in the late 90s. The military was cut to the bone after the cold war wrapped up and Colt's All-American 2000 went down in flames in the war against Glock, SIG, Beretta, HK. I think they were low on money and basically saw their revolver line as a labor-intensive and ever-shrinking part of the market. They even toyed with backing out of the civilian market all together IIRC. The wars and new management saved Colt.
".....and Colt's All-American 2000 went down in flames"
As it rightfully should have, E. Stoner's input on the design be damned.
Colt was in really bad shape in the late 90s. The military was cut to the bone after the cold war wrapped up and Colt's All-American 2000 went down in flames in the war against Glock, SIG, Beretta, HK. I think they were low on money and basically saw their revolver line as a labor-intensive and ever-shrinking part of the market. They even toyed with backing out of the civilian market all together IIRC. The wars and new management saved Colt.
Too bad. I never understood why someone couldn't make at least a similar six shot snub? The Ruger SP is a bulky heavy 5 shot to me. Just love my D Frame
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-17-13, 20:15
150 rounds since my last post. Too lazy to add em all up. Shot some crazy "Marthon Reloading" 148 grain wadcutters today. Box looked like it was from the 80s.
I have noticed the anodizing on the edges is gone and the gun is starting to wear a little.
mkmckinley
03-17-13, 21:20
I do carry a j-frame when I am out exercising or in an environment where I can't get away with carrying something bigger. But there are some real disadvantages that you cannot deny...ammo capacity and reload time being the two big ones.
How do you carry ie what are you carrying in while exercising? I've tried to carry my j frame running but it beats the shit out of me.
The Dumb Gun Collector
03-17-13, 22:31
Desantis Pocket holster. I probably run slower than you. LOL
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-21-13, 23:00
170 more
If my calculation are correct, you are right around 2750. Sound about right? I know many many sissies would have shattered their limp wrists by now after that many rounds through a J frame. :p
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-05-13, 19:44
200 more.
It is really all about being used to it. Last weekend I decided to shoot about half of my shots left handed (bored). It beat the crap out of my hand--mainly because I rarely shoot more than 6 rounds weak handed per week.
This week, because my HK45c is off at tool tech getting sights drilled in, I shot a friends FN45 (which was superbly accurate btw) and the checkering on the grip tore up my ring fingertip. Now, the FN is a very light kicking 45 but it "hurt" mainly because I wasn't used to shooting it.
The J frame is a fantastic little pistol. I don't carry anything else anymore. Now that the summer is coming there is zero chance I will hassle with anything else until it cools off.
Every reload is from a speedloader. I have improved my speed a decent amount but more importantly I have completely erased any fumbling. People really need to practice more reloading. I go to the range every weekend and I notice almost no one seriously practices reloading. I don't understand why not. It requires no effort to incorporate the reload drills since, you know, you are going to have to reload anyway.
brushy bill
05-05-13, 22:22
I'm following this closely. Can you give us a total round count when you have time?
Nephrology
05-06-13, 06:47
200 more.
It is really all about being used to it. Last weekend I decided to shoot about half of my shots left handed (bored). It beat the crap out of my hand--mainly because I rarely shoot more than 6 rounds weak handed per week.
This week, because my HK45c is off at tool tech getting sights drilled in, I shot a friends FN45 (which was superbly accurate btw) and the checkering on the grip tore up my ring fingertip. Now, the FN is a very light kicking 45 but it "hurt" mainly because I wasn't used to shooting it.
The J frame is a fantastic little pistol. I don't carry anything else anymore. Now that the summer is coming there is zero chance I will hassle with anything else until it cools off.
Every reload is from a speedloader. I have improved my speed a decent amount but more importantly I have completely erased any fumbling. People really need to practice more reloading. I go to the range every weekend and I notice almost no one seriously practices reloading. I don't understand why not. It requires no effort to incorporate the reload drills since, you know, you are going to have to reload anyway.
Do you carry your speedloaders? If so , which brand?
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-06-13, 09:49
I usually carry one HKS speedloader in the same pocket as the gun. It isn't that hard to get to with practice.
Brushy,
I am north of 3k now. Not by much--but the gun runs fine. The only way you can tell there is trouble is where the anodizing is gone from the high points on the gun.
Any idea how many of those 3,000 rounds were +P?
brushy bill
05-06-13, 19:52
Brushy,
I am north of 3k now. Not by much--but the gun runs fine. The only way you can tell there is trouble is where the anodizing is gone from the high points on the gun.
Thanks Greg. I asked because my EDC is usually a 442. I know, I'm lazy, unprepared, etc, but I agree with your assessment and I've reached the same conclusion. Esp in hot weather, I will carry the 442 when I leave anything else at home. My concern has always been how long a "shoot a little, carry a lot" revolver will last. Sounds like not much need for concern. Thanks for doing this by the way.
I have been carrying a J Frame off duty for over 24 years. I own three of them and they are all well worn. A good man with a J Frame will prevail over an untrained turd with a high cap pistol.
Nephrology
05-10-13, 16:19
With the summertime now almost here I must confess the J frame is really becoming a good friend very quickly. On rainy days I wear my Glock 26 (here in CT, it's the highest capacity handgun we can carry...sigh) but when it's scorching I find myself reaching for the j frame more often than not.
Great thread Greg.
Good to know that there are others that like J-frame carry.
Been carrying a 36 for years now. I also carry a Colt DS at times. They both fit in the same holster although the Colt is a little tight but it works.
http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz229/Scoby/004_zps6d5dec85.jpg (http://s830.photobucket.com/user/Scoby/media/004_zps6d5dec85.jpg.html)
I predict you wear that Smith out before you actually break it.
.
Has anyone tried the Hogue Tamer grips for the centennial J Frames? The tamer grips were the best part of the LCR's. I'm glad they are out now for S&W's. They do kind of look like updated mono grips, but with a beefier blackstrap.
http://www.hoguestore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=22_35_729
http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz267/edmateo50/photo_zps509a6a41.jpg
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-11-13, 12:16
Scoby,
I would definitely carry a Colt DS/Cobra if I thought I could keep it running. I had a minty DS a while back and it was an amazing little gun. Colt should be kicked in the jewels for discontinuing them.
Scoby,
I would definitely carry a Colt DS/Cobra if I thought I could keep it running.
I can only assume you mean running as in replacement parts?
I've thought of that as well but, I've never dug into how hard it would be to find any parts for it.
The DS is a great handgun and like you, I don't know why Colt would have stopped production of this fine little handgun. I can shoot it well too. I also like the thought of the six shots.
My dad left me both the Smith and the Colt. He kept the Colt in the glove compartment of his station wagon.
It's stupid I know but, I find it hard to warm up to a nickel gun. When I want to bling out....I carry the Colt. :cool:
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-11-13, 19:59
Right. Being out of production around 15 years it is going to be more and more problematic to get parts. And getting competent work done on a Colt is nearly impossible. The few that can work on it are either not taking work or have wait lists years long
Has anyone tried the Hogue Tamer grips for the centennial J Frames? The tamer grips were the best part of the LCR's. I'm glad they are out now for S&W's. They do kind of look like updated mono grips, but with a beefier blackstrap.
http://www.hoguestore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=22_35_729
http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz267/edmateo50/photo_zps509a6a41.jpg
I've been using a similar Pachmar grip on my 340 PD. They are much much superior to the open back strap stock grip. The longer grip area also makes recovery all that much faster.
I can't break mine, too many :(, would take me forever.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG734.jpeg
brushy bill
05-17-13, 17:40
Right. Being out of production around 15 years it is going to be more and more problematic to get parts. And getting competent work done on a Colt is nearly impossible. The few that can work on it are either not taking work or have wait lists years long
Exactly why my Colt Cobra sits forlorn in the safe while 442 doesn't.
goodoleboy
05-17-13, 22:02
I have had my concealed carry license for about 11 years. During that time I've carried everything from 1911s, to Glock 22s, Glock 19s, and a S&W 342ti. I must say that based solely on comfort and convenience of carry, the 342ti wins hands down. Next would be the Glock 19, 1911 and Glock 22 respectively. The only problem I ever had with the 342ti was when I was shooting +P ammo in it and it backed the other bullets out of the casing and they impinged on the forcing cone causing a malfunction. In hindsight, I could have switched ammo and remedied the problem, but I snapped shit, sold the 342ti, and started carrying other things. I still wish I had that 342ti back today. That was a sweet little piece.
The Dumb Gun Collector
05-19-13, 16:04
200 more
I am near the bottom of my 20mm ammo can of reloads and other .38s. I probably have 100 more rounds before I have to procure some more for this test. Hmm.
Doc Safari
05-30-13, 15:12
Cool thread. I've got a 642 ordered through my dealer.
You guys that shoot these all the time: what are your favorite ammo types? How about the "dogs" you'd never want to shoot in a J-frame again?
I carry 125 gr +P Speer Gold Dots in my 36. A J frame is a beast to shoot with this load and I don't shoot them much. Just every so often.
For practice I use regular old 158 gr lead round nose. Just fine for practice at close range and more economical.
642 EDC here :D
135+P GDHP. Beast round.
I created a puff load using 125 Berry bullets just to shoot something at the range. It is so puff that the bullet will make it only halfway thru a 6in barrel :o
Strictly a j frame load haha.
http://www.danpassaro.com/img/s2/v4/p962976845-4.jpg
http://www.danpassaro.com/img/s3/v40/p969231895-4.jpg
twistedcomrade
06-09-13, 10:39
This is a great thread. I love my 638 J Frame and still carry it, but my Shield 9mm has taken it's place for the most part.
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-23-13, 16:47
150 more!
Being a lunatic, more than half of these rounds were just me running back and forth shooting from a pocket draw. I can keep the bullets in about a 20 inch group--but again, I am literally running sideways shooting. Dangerous? Hell yes! Fun? Ditto.
The Dumb Gun Collector
06-30-13, 14:40
60 more rounds. Need to find some .38 now.
Greg do you know your approximate round count?
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-03-13, 09:50
3400 plus. Approximately 200 more than this but I don't count because I didn't log it.
The gun is still in fantastic shape. The high points are all burnished. The CT laser grips have never lost their zero.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-07-13, 19:50
3450 plus.
Shot some blazer through her today. Went to Academy and fortunately it looks like the ammo shortage is lightening up a bit.
Although I practiced in the day light, I spent the whole time doing flashlight work. Chewed my hand up quite a bit doing Rogers technique!
I think people should remember to do live fire flashlight work even if you can't do it at night (which is tough for me during the summer).
And before you jump on me I know a lot of folks prefer to hold the flashlight by their head but I just can't get comfortable with it.
I recently hosted Claude Werner for his one day snub nosed skill development class. Well worth the time, and increased my confidence in the little gun tremendously.
really enjoying this thread.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-07-13, 20:11
I know Claude fairly well and I can't seen to get him to come and visit with me for a snubby class! I had an in on a free class with him but my work intervened.
Very interesting thread. Thanks for sharing this with us Greg. I'm actually thinking the same thing. I live in Central Texas and its very warm to hot most of the year. We often experience 90 degree weather as early as May and as late as November. The 80s often pop up in February. July through September are often over 100. When i carry IWB, most of the year I'm fairly miserable due to the heat. I can not carry at work (my school district doesn't even allow us to leave guns in our vehicles) so I don't carry all that much anyway. I also have two small children and herding them often puts me in a position where keeping my M&P9 or 3" GP100 hidden is difficult.
All this has me carrying less and less. Now I know with a family to protect, the M&P is vastly superior to a J Frame sized gun. However, with all these circumstances combined, pocket carry of a J Frame or perhaps an SP101 sounds much more appealing and would fit into my world a little better and get me carrying more often (when not at work of course). I'd still carry at least 2 reloads in the form of belt mounted speed loaders. As a side note, I shoot my GP just a little better than my M&P and I am a lot more revolver savy than most guys as young as myself.
Keep up the good work Greg and thanks for daring to offend the tactical gods and speak the truth about some folks just having different needs.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-14-13, 16:05
3500 plus (50 rounds blazer)
Focused on quick pocket draw on multiple assailants. Approximately 21 feet. 2,2 and save the spare for yourself.
I don't know if I mentioned it but my cleaning routine is a wipe down with a baby wipe and a bore snake.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7318/9288072634_73e6934b54.jpg
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-14-13, 16:19
ICarbine,
A lot of these folks are simply not real carry folks. I carr, for the most part,y all day every day. There are a few exceptions like Superior Courthouses and bathroom/ bed. Otherwise, I have a gun. Very few people truly carry like this, and most who do are carrying revolvers and/or mouse guns.
I practice every week with my hk45c, usually twice as much as with the jframes. But carrying it at work, driving between cities, playing with my 4 year old, that ain't happening.
Doc Safari
07-14-13, 22:22
2,2 and save the spare for yourself.
Interesting. I have the same philosophy. Knowing that if you're outnumbered the first four shots better cause the rest to flee or you're probably going to suffer a slow, unpleasant death. Always save the last one for yourself.
The Dumb Gun Collector
07-28-13, 16:30
~3550 50 rounds of PMC FMJ.
25 rounds of box drills at 21 and 30 feet.
25 rounds laying down on my side one handed under the bench. I have no idea what I was practicing, but it is always nice to try different positions.:secret:
brushy bill
08-02-13, 20:24
~3550 50 rounds of PMC FMJ.
25 rounds of box drills at 21 and 30 feet.
25 rounds laying down on my side one handed under the bench. I have no idea what I was practicing, but it is always nice to try different positions.:secret:
How is it holding up to this use? If I recall, there were several hundred rounds beyond this as well, but you didn't document them so were being conservative. Nice job Greg and thanks again for posting this thread.
Ive liked to run from Claude Werner:
5^5
5 shots in a 5 inch circle at 5 yards under 5 seconds from the ready 5 times.
Im using a CD outlined with a marker so its more like 4.5 inches, and Im getting in under 4 seconds.
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-07-13, 19:44
This guys has some interesting stuff to say.
http://www.gunnuts.net/2013/08/07/why-i-carry-a-j-frame/
~3550 50 rounds of PMC FMJ.
25 rounds of box drills at 21 and 30 feet.
25 rounds laying down on my side one handed under the bench. I have no idea what I was practicing, but it is always nice to try different positions.:secret:
Hey you never know what position you might find yourself in.
Any practice is good practice IMO.
So you are over 3,500 rds.
How is the Smith holding up? Still tight? Cylinder timing still good?
Cap'n Crash
08-08-13, 23:02
Mr Bell, thank you for the informative and entertaining thread! I've been kicking around the idea of a 442 for quite some time and this thread has me sold on the idea. My friends think I'm crazy, but I'm happy to see there are like-minded folks here!
Is it a noob mistake to shell out $400+tax at my LGS for a new 442? Any wiser approaches? Thank you to anyone who wishes to reply.
The Dumb Gun Collector
08-09-13, 00:01
Scooby,
Seems to be holding up pretty good. I compare it to my old 442 and it seems a little bit more broken-in all around, but still quite tight. I don't think anyone could tell but for the finish wear--which is subtle because of the stainless/aluminum finish.
Capn'
I don't think that is a bad price. Dickering and driving yourself crazy over $25, especially on a gun, isn't worth it. If you keep it it will be worth more than that in a few years. Guns are always going up.
Cap'n Crash
08-09-13, 00:09
Thanks Mr Bell. That makes sense. Happy shooting!
Good to hear Greg.
Keep us posted.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-07-13, 11:40
3700~ plus.
Did some night shooting last week. I know I am a broken record on this but the laser grips are so far out ahead of night sights in this scenario that it isn't funny. I was even able to work out some distance shots(50-75 yards) with the laser.
I've had a J frame of some sort in my carry rotation for over 40 years. When I was a young LEO most officers carried J frames or Colt snubbies off duty. Depending on the weather I carried a 1911 IWB when feasible, but on hot summer days the J frame was easier to conceal. Most of this summer I carried an M&P9c IWB covered with an open shirt. But if a tee shirt was worn a J frame was tucked deep into my waistband.
This summer I bought a S&W 432 in 32 H&R Magnum. When carried I load it with the excellent Buffalo Bore +P loads and don't feel under gunned. I'm glad S&W is making 32 J frames once again.
This has been a very interesting thread, especially for an old timer like myself. And as much as I like semi autos, I still have a lot of confidence in a quality revolver. Whatever you choose to carry I say there is no substitute for practice, practice and more practice.
The Dumb Gun Collector
09-15-13, 20:00
3800 rounds
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-13-13, 18:04
3950. I would have shot 50 more today if I realized I was at 4k
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-27-13, 14:52
4050. Cleaning still consists of baby wiping and occasional bore snake. (sounds perverted).
4050. Cleaning still consists of baby wiping and occasional bore snake. (sounds perverted).
my old mod 36 would gum up and the trigger would get heavy every few hundred rounds if I didnt clean it and oil the crane (no longer own that gun) but my 442 just goes and goes and goes.
Theres something about gas seals on revolvers I never really grasped....
brushy bill
10-27-13, 21:30
I'm getting the impression the newer S&W J's have improved durability over the older "better" S&Ws and I can't understand why. With MIM and other factors at play how can this be?
I love this idea as I am a 45 guy. There is nothing in my safe except 1911's and M&P's in 45, which has not been a problem. Now I work in business casual and something like a 38 in a pocket holster would be the hot ticket
4050. Cleaning still consists of baby wiping and occasional bore snake. (sounds perverted).
Greg, I've been following this thread since you started it. Have you pulled off the side plate to see what kind of build up, if any, has entered the lock work?
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-29-13, 10:56
I will pry her open this weekend .
gtmtnbiker98
10-29-13, 14:41
I will pry her open this weekend .
Just be sure to lightly 'tap' and not 'pry.' Side plates and the word 'pry' go together as well as polymer and soldering irons.
The Dumb Gun Collector
10-29-13, 16:55
Nothing a flathead and a dremel can't fix!:neo:
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-03-13, 18:53
4100
Popped her open to see how much nastiness had built up. Not too much.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/10655279414_cbec7ff8b3_c.jpg
"Greg Bell",
This thread you have built up is TOP NOTCH!
Thank you keeping it going and showing what a work horse the Aluminum J Frames can be, Pretty darn impressive.
* After over 4K the internals look like they could have gone double that without a wipe down.
???: I am not sure if this has been asked before, but . . .
- Who did you have install your Front Sight?
- At what distance Does it shoot POA/POI?
If you could post up more pics that would be much appreciated.
Thanks & Have a great one
4100
Popped her open to see how much nastiness had built up. Not too much.
Not bad at all. I would have expected more fouling than that.
If you mentioned it in the thread I've forgotten... Have you pulled the cylinder and crane off the frame periodically, or are you cleaning those in place?
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-03-13, 23:14
Karl Sokol did the sight install.
The front sight is POI/POA at 21 feetif you drop the dot into the trench.
I have cleaned everything in place. Basically, I run a bore snake down the bore and down each cylinder. Then I take baby wipes and clean all visible fouling. After that I spray it with Rem-oil then dry it off.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3709/10655272356_dbe2398f3a_c.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7301/10655276536_712be6a468_c.jpg
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/10655257435_ab49ff50e2_c.jpg
As a J frame guy, I continue to enjoy the thread and understand that you're pushing the revolver to its limits.
The crud amount on the internals appears to me to be heavy, though I admit to be a compulsive cleaner. I'm surprised if spraying with a lubricant didn't result in a paste type buildup in the action over time.
Please don't pry the side plate--tap the handle. It no "workee" if plate is warped.
I've been shooting revolvers for 50 years and have learned that their strong rep for reliability is dependent on maintenance. The man who drops one in the water or mud will soon discover this fact.
Excellent thread.
imho:
I am certain "Greg Bell" is well versed in & knows his way around a wheel gun. He is the OP to this thread after all. Pretty certain he knows how to take one down as well.
The posts mentioned above I see as a positive as it may prevent a newer less knowledgeable wheel gun owner from using the wrong methods of dis-assembly, removing the side plate. . . . .
Thank you again for the info., feedback, keeping this thread going.
Have a great one
Doc Safari
11-05-13, 15:06
A question:
Given that a revolver's mechanism is pretty much completely covered up by the side plate, is there a way to "de-gunk" the innards with some kind of spray cleaner through the grip area? Or is it simply a fact of life that every few thousand rounds you will probably have to remove the side plate for a thorough cleaning?
I've seen dunk kits advertised. Removing the side plate and blasting with Rem Oil and then letting dry is very easy. Using compressed air after Rem Oil treatment is quick and easy.
New guys may not know that using a solvent spray like Gun Scrubber will remove all oil and result in rust formation even on stainless steel parts. Years ago I observed extensive rusting on several stainless Smith M-65s that had been cleaned in a tank of chemical degreaser and not re-treated with a rust preventive.
4100
Popped her open to see how much nastiness had built up. Not too much.
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5540/10655279414_cbec7ff8b3_c.jpg
My 442 stays clean as well. My 60-15 does get dirty innards.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-05-13, 18:21
To all the folks that worry, I didn't actually pry it open. I tapped on the grip with a plastic screwdriver handle until it popped off. No biggie.
It was actually pretty gunky--or at least more than the pictures suggest. The actual parts had a pretty thick sludge but the inner wall was pretty clean (although the plate was nasty).
All I did to clean it was blast it with Rem-oil and rubbed some gunk off with a paper towel. I didn't do anything more.
Guinnessman
11-06-13, 07:56
Greg,
Since you have shot many rounds thru your J-frame, has your trigger control improved on your other guns? Is the J-frame improving your overall skills? Just curious.
Karl Sokol did the sight install.
The front sight is POI/POA at 21 feetif you drop the dot into the trench.
I have cleaned everything in place. Basically, I run a bore snake down the bore and down each cylinder. Then I take baby wipes and clean all visible fouling. After that I spray it with Rem-oil then dry it off.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3709/10655272356_dbe2398f3a_c.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7301/10655276536_712be6a468_c.jpg
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5494/10655257435_ab49ff50e2_c.jpg
Thanks for the pictures, Greg. You said the internals were more fouled than the pictures lead you to believe. With that said, did you notice any difference in trigger manipulation pre- and post-cleaning?
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-07-13, 19:06
I would say that shooting J-frames has definitely improved my trigger control. In fact, I have noticed if I start trending right or left with a Glock or other gun, a great way to get back on sight is firing 50 rounds through my j-frame. After that, all other guns are easy as pie. I have a .22 J-frame that is downright awful that is even more effective.
I didn't notice any difference in the trigger before or after. It is very smooth.
SeriousStudent
11-07-13, 20:24
..... I have a .22 J-frame that is downright awful that is even more effective.
......
Counselor, would that be a S&W 43C?
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-08-13, 17:09
Tis indeed. A neat, light little blaster. But a CRAPPY trigger.
Doc Safari
11-08-13, 17:31
Tis indeed. A neat, light little blaster. But a CRAPPY trigger.
Is it that bad, though?
Given that the gun is made to get you out of a self-defense situation I bet you won't even notice that heavy trigger when your life is on the line.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-08-13, 17:47
Nah, it would be fine in combat. No worse than a P38--that weighs about 11 oz with a 15 pound trigger. LOL
Doc Safari
11-08-13, 17:51
Nah, it would be fine in combat. No worse than a P38--that weighs about 11 oz with a 15 pound trigger. LOL
I actually shoot mine better than my Glock, and it goes more places too.
Truth be told, I actually sold one of my Glocks so I could have a "spare" Model 642.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-08-13, 19:07
My .38 is smooth as silk. The gun I am talking about that has a crappy trigger is the 22 j frame.
SeriousStudent
11-08-13, 19:43
I lust in my heart for a 43C. It makes me a bad person, I am sure.
Okay, probably not true. It's other things that make me a bad person.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-10-13, 12:51
4150.
I was distracted by my .45 today so I only shot 50 rounds of 158 lead.
My practice consisted of dumping 5 round groups into my target while moving fast to the right and left. I was quite satisfied with the results. All the rounds, dumped as fast as I could pull the trigger, landed in a standard size sheet of paper every time (although it was towards the right side). Not too shabby.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7359/10782688706_ff69412d7d_b.jpg
brushy bill
11-13-13, 20:30
Greg,
Any ideas why the MIM 442s/642s seem to have better longevity than the older J's? I prefer the older Smith's, but seems like the 442s/642s are holding up better (so long as they don't have a lock). Seen failures in the older ones well before 5K rds. Any guesses?
Best,
Bill
Greg,
Any ideas why the MIM 442s/642s seem to have better longevity than the older J's? I prefer the older Smith's, but seems like the 442s/642s are holding up better (so long as they don't have a lock). Seen failures in the older ones well before 5K rds. Any guesses?
Best,
Bill
Modern manufacturing.
The MIM process is actually quite proven. Strong, high quality parts are made using MIM in more than just the firearms industry. People need to stop being afraid of MIM.
The Dumb Gun Collector
11-24-13, 21:06
4200
50 rounds of 158grain lead. Mostly shooting on the move--basically running.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-08-13, 15:15
4250
I tried, hilariously, to run FAST drills with my J Frame. It takes me 2 seconds flat to get the gun out and fire a shot into an index card at 21 feet. This is from my pocket while wearing a hoodie. I know some folks can beat that, but it really isn't bad considering that the gun is in a sub-optimal location for speed drills. This is, clearing the hoodie, reaching in the pocket, and firing the gun into an index card without missing. Basically a brain shot. Not too bad. My spits are in the low .2s.
The j frames forte is up close and personal.
4250
I tried, hilariously, to run FAST drills with my J Frame.
It is indeed hilarious. And humbling.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-15-13, 17:24
4300. .26 splits!
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-22-13, 20:29
12/22/13
4350 (158 gr JHP Monarch). Lots of Laser practice and shooting on the move.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3801/11503756385_ee68732dc5_b.jpg
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-29-13, 18:03
All fast drills this week. Some hilarious 5 seconds reloads. Sometimes fast is slow. LOL.
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3721/11635059465_9fd237e578_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7439/11635442284_34e301c983_c.jpg
All fast drills this week. Some hilarious 5 seconds reloads. Sometimes fast is slow. LOL.
Were you using Speed Strips?
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-29-13, 18:14
I wish I was.
I wish I was.
I carry speed strips with my J Frame. It takes several seconds to reload 5 rounds, but they are easier to hide than a speed loader. As you indicated, the amount of time it takes is humbling.
The Dumb Gun Collector
12-29-13, 22:28
I can usually do it faster. But today I was especially goofy.
A J Frame is a fine weapon and a skilled operator with a J Frame is not someone to be underestimated.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.