View Full Version : Define an Accurate Pistol ?
What are your expectations of your pistol? What should the average
GLOCK< XD< MNP shoot at 25yards? 3 inch group, 5 inch group????
Do you use a rest to test this accuracy?
What should a 1911 Nighthawk or Springfield Pro shoot? 1-3 inches?
Or an HK45 or P30L?
If you have any experiences with these guns, lets hear it? Yes, we all know MNP's have had issues, but what SHOULD it be?
Magic_Salad0892
10-01-12, 03:08
5 shot group at 25m. Preferably a 2.5'' group or less.
I consider my handguns accurate when I can consistently hit a 10" steel plate with them at 50yds off hand.
Dos Cylindros
10-01-12, 03:38
All I need mine to do is reliably allow me to hit an IPSC sized steel target at 100 yards. We regulary do this during our range qualifications and it is very easy with my department issue M&P 40. I have no idea what groups mine shots at 25 yards, because I have never tried. I'm not a big bullseye shooter though so accuracy is a relative term to me.
My understanding of handgun accuracy is of two forms: mechanical. and practical.
In my view, acceptable accuracy for a combat pistol at 25 yards would be 4-5 inch groups.
An accurate combat/ full-size pistol would deliver groups half that size 2" or less.
A Nighthawk, is a very accurate combat type pistol. The GRP .45 ACP model I fired at 50 ft. was grouping around 2.5-3" firing at a rapid pace. At 21 feet the pistol shot a group, one large hole, less than a half-inch.
The most accurate pistols that I have owned were a 1990s produced SIG 220 .45 ACP, SIG 226 9mm, and HK P7M8 9mm.
If you are looking for the most accuracy out of a particular handgun, then be certain to try-out a variety of loads. All guns will usually favor a particular brand/ weight. Federal match rounds are a good place to start in 9mm or .45 ACP.
The HK P7 shot into almost the same hole at 7 yards with German 115gr Geco rounds. I never shot it at 25 yards, but at 50 ft. around an inch.
Shooting the pistol/ handgun off a sand bag or with a ransom rest would provide the best reflection of a gun's mechanical accuracy. Of course the shooters ability is always a factor.
Very important factor for pistol accuracy is sights radius. I Some very technically accurate pistols are hard to shoot accurately at longer ranges (over 15m) due to short sights radius. Good example is HK P2000SK.
Personally I look for pistol that will allow me to put 10 rounds at 25m (about 27 yard) within 5". P2000SK 9mm is at this limit, HK45C allows me to go down to same 4". With HK P30L 9mm it is about 3". Same performance I had with STI 2011 in .40SW. I think that for combat purposes 5" at 25 yard is good enough, for practical competition purposes I look for less than 3", for formal target shooting it should be capable of sub-inch at 27 yard (all 10 shot groups, and I shot some sub-inch groups at 27 yard with .22lr target pistol). I witnessed repeatable groups under 1.5" shot at 27yard with HK USP Elite 9mm (during formal target competition).
Here is my best (so far) group with P30L (10 shots, Geco FMJ 124gr, 27yrd (25m), two hand grip, separated shots):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v286/montrala/Range%20reports/IMAG0145a.jpg
"Outer 10" ring is 30mm in size (1.18"). Group shows both my errors and how pistol wants to shoot if shooter allows it. So it is "accurate pistol" in my book.
You can see crappy sights that I put on this pistol. Now I have Dawson sights, so I will try to shoot it better. :secret:
What are your expectations of your pistol? What should the average
GLOCK< XD< MNP shoot at 25yards? 3 inch group, 5 inch group????
All combat guns should be capable of 3-4" groups.
Do you use a rest to test this accuracy?
Yes as you want to remove the "human" factor out as much as possible.
What should a 1911 Nighthawk or Springfield Pro shoot? 1-3 inches?
1-3 is more typical for these type of pistols.
Or an HK45 or P30L?
3-4" (minimum).
C4
Sub MOA or sell it.
Ummm, that's 1/4" groups at 25 yards. You have awfully high standards.
I'd appreciate 2" or less at 25 yards. Won't accept more than 4" at 25 yards.
Sub MOA or sell it.
Hey Jack, I got 10 handguns for sale. :D
I'm eager to run some test on some of my junk. We can take tannerite with us in case anything won't group.
ICANHITHIMMAN
10-01-12, 09:41
Its funny before this thread I had never even considered if my pistols were accurate or not. I guess with the pistol, I have always just thought of the shooter as the weak link.
Ummm, that's 1/4" groups at 25 yards. You have awfully high standards.
I'd appreciate 2" or less at 25 yards. Won't accept more than 4" at 25 yards.
It was a joke, Raymond.
My personal standard is a guaranteed head shoot at 10 yards.
High Tower
10-01-12, 09:52
Sub MOA or sell it.
:D
I would think 4-6" groups at 25 yds is acceptable, but I would lean more towards 2" groups at 25 to be considered an accurate pistol. You would need quality ammo to achieve this.
For me an acceptable accuracy standard for a service pistol would be 4" ten shot groups at 25 yards from the bench. An accurate pistol would be 2.5" or less, with anything under 2" as very accurate.
Now, I also want a pistol that has inherent practical accuracy when shooting offhand. I'm no bullseye shooter, so 5-6" at 25 yards would be "acceptable". I'd really prefer to have one that can print 4" or less at that range.
Most of the Glocks and M&P's I've shot will meet the acceptable standard. Most of the 1911's would fall into or very near what I'd call accurate. The only very accurate one's I've had were S&W revolvers, a Wilson Combat 5" 1911 and a Glock 34 with a Bar-Sto barrel and Dawson Precision sights.
Its funny before this thread I had never even considered if my pistols were accurate or not. I guess with the pistol, I have always just thought of the shooter as the weak link.
Same here. My custom 1911's always came with target etc, which made me think, Its better than me. It was the S&W M&P thread discussing accuracy issues that made me start wondering. All my M&P's shoot a ragged hole at 7 yards, but I never shoot for accuracy at 25yards. At 25 yards Im doing tactical drills trying to hit steel fast.
Your question implied that you are looking at pure mechanical accuracy. In that case, I think service pistols need to shoot 2.5"-3" at 25 as a maximum allowable standard. I don't have much experience with M&P's, but the HK's and Glocks I shoot/have shot are pretty much all capable of that (with the advantage in accuracy obviously going to the HK's).
Its funny before this thread I had never even considered if my pistols were accurate or not. I guess with the pistol, I have always just thought of the shooter as the weak link.
Generally yes, but it is very important to understand where your pistol "hits" at 25yds. IMHO, EVERYONE should shoot off of a bag/rest to see (as you might find out that it shoots way high, way low or doesn't hold a group).
C4
Going along with what Grant is saying. To find the accuracy of the pistol itself you should do everything possible to eliminate human error such as sand bagging, sighting rest, etc.
Then there is what you yourself can achieve with the pistol where to no fault of the pistol the group may be large where you may need to improve your skill or in the case of a particular difficult pistol a sign you should make a switch.
I think 4" max at 25 is a good standard for a combat pistol.
If your asking what is acceptable than I will go along with the 3-4" at 25 yards standard.
However, when I think of an accurate pistol I think of the 1911 I had built for me when I shot Bullseye. That gun shoots a 1 5/16th" group at FIFTY YARDS with Federal 185gr swc in a Ransom Rest. My reloads are pretty close.
To me that is about as good as it gets with a major caliber pistol.
theblackknight
10-01-12, 20:45
All of the armory berattas ive shot are good from 3in easy. For me, 2in is what i want. The pistol should be able to keep rounds inside the ipsc reduced a zone bc i can.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
ICANHITHIMMAN
10-01-12, 21:24
Same here. My custom 1911's always came with target etc, which made me think, Its better than me. It was the S&W M&P thread discussing accuracy issues that made me start wondering. All my M&P's shoot a ragged hole at 7 yards, but I never shoot for accuracy at 25yards. At 25 yards Im doing tactical drills trying to hit steel fast.
Glad Im not alone
ICANHITHIMMAN
10-01-12, 21:25
Same here. My custom 1911's always came with target etc, which made me think, Its better than me. It was the S&W M&P thread discussing accuracy issues that made me start wondering. All my M&P's shoot a ragged hole at 7 yards, but I never shoot for accuracy at 25yards. At 25 yards Im doing tactical drills trying to hit steel fast.
Guess I will give it a try
if i can keep em on a 1/3 scale IPSC target at 25 yards i'm happy with it. That's as good as i shoot. Basically A-zones in a regualr sized IPSC.
my glock 19 I'm certain is capable of better accuracy than me.
Even my j-frame is dead on when i do my part.
That said i'm probably not at the point as a shooter where i can outshoot normal gear.
What accuracy standard should be considered a valid requirement a duty/CCW pistol?
The esteemed Larry Vickers states that a combat pistol needs a 2.5" mechanical accuracy at 25 yds in order ensure about 5" during a stressful lethal force encounter: http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/accuracy/.
When Pat Rogers used to have me present the wound ballistics module at Camp Pendleton SOTG Range 130, the USMC MEU-SOC .45 ACP 1911's in use there typically could shoot groups between 3 to 5 inches at 25 yards--this was considered quite acceptable by the Force Recon Marines.
Most folks consider the G17 to offer acceptable accuracy. Now the guys at TigerSwan are very dialed in shooters, yet in Brian Searcy's recent thread (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=98542), he describes how a stock G17 is not accurate enough for his needs so he replaces the barrel to tighten things up.
At 25 yds my stock OEM barreled G17's typically shoot all inside the black 9 ring on a NRA B8 (around a 3.5-5" group at 25 yds), but not much better. In contrast, most OEM barreled M&P45's I've shot can keep much everything pretty much in the 10 ring (about a 2.5-3" group at 25 yds); likewise my G17's with match barrels (KKM or Wilson) shoot about the same. On the other hand, my old custom match grade 1911's could routinely drill out the X-ring (sub 2" group at 25 yds).
I am currently qualified on, carry, and am perfectly happy with the 9 mm Glock and .45 ACP M&P45; thus for me, acceptable accuracy for a duty/CCW pistol is between 3-5 inches at 25 yds.
Magic_Salad0892
10-02-12, 03:13
Do you think the problem with Glocks isn't so much accuracy, but consistancy when it comes to accurate barrels?
nineteenkilo
10-02-12, 12:28
3-5" at 25 meters is perfectly fine with me without a rest.
I do like Grant's 10m headshot as a viable second criteria though. I wonder if I could pull that off while running.
Looks like I've got something to try for.....
10 yd headshot on demand is a good criteria.
Another good standard to test oneself is the LAPD SWAT pistol qual; I just put this up as a PT DOW: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5515-Week-47-DB-Modified-LAPD-SWAT-Qual.
Kyle Defoor's three Pistol tests are a great assessment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJtczDAUul0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcoBHmXHxMk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wugfoKJ0-fA&feature=plcp.
Another EXCELLENT way to grade yourself is the http://www.hardwiredtacticalshooting.com/ 2 second standards--their classes are highly recommended!
I'm happy if the gun will do 2" or better rested off the bench. I test at 20 yds, more a function of my eyesight than anything else. Most of my Glocks will meet this standard with several loads. I've only got one pistol, a FS M&P .40 that I haven't been able to find a load that will do better than 2.5". You know you have a good shooter when it will do 1.5" or less with multiple loads.
Doc, thank you for that post. I see I'm gonna be busy. ;)
As a relative newcomer to the pistol world, my standard for 25yd accuracy is 4" 10-shot offhand. I viewed it as not great, but good enough to mean I have at least got the concept of fundamentals. If Im getting 4" groups, the pistol is accurate enough, as I know Im not shooting perfectly everytime. My main purposes are self defense, and eventually competition.
Funny story: I was out shooting last week, and my friend just got a usp 40. He was hitting left and said the sights might be off, so I shot a mag to see... Even my bad shots, the holes were exactly where the sights were when the trigger broke(not used to trigger). Maybe its the sight radius, but I cant do that with my gun(cz75 compact, 40 with SAO polished trigger). I'd say that gun is VERY accurate.
My Sig P226 9mm is more accurate than any of my striker fired pistols. I dont shoot from a rest or from any farther than 15 yards. The difference is i can shoot my striker fired guns faster than the Sig and still get hits on target.
Doc. Holiday
10-04-12, 09:22
A head shot at 10m is a good standard. I usually ask for a head shot at 15m before I deem anything exceptional. My Aegis Pro is able to hit a 12 inch at 100 yards. That is more than exceptional in my eyes.
I took my MNP Pro 5 inch to the range and my 4.25 full size and shot them both. The Pro is designed to be "accurate" and it drove ragged holes at 7 yards off hand.
My eyes are not good enough to truly test a handgun at 25 yards for holding 1-3 inch groups. But I shot my hole 3 times barely enlarging it out of the five shots. Dead nuts accurate.
The service size with factory sights and apex trigger, threaded barrel opened up a little. But seemed combat accurate. No real shocker on poor accuracy. I don't like the apex triggers as much as the ones that come with the Pro. I'm sure sights have something to do with it.
As an expansion on my 10 yard head shot... I do a movie theater drill.
3 body shots as fast as I can get them on an IPSC steel, followed by 2 well aimed head shots... to simulate the asshole that shot up the Batman movie.
Doc. Holiday
10-05-12, 12:13
followed by 2 well aimed head shots... to simulate the asshole that shot up the Batman movie.
+1 indeed
the above statements quoted by Mr Vickers stand. If you get a pistol that is a 6 inch 25 yard grouper on the range it will be a 1 foot grouper (if you are lucky ) in a fight. The most reliable accurate psitol you can manage is the answer. all chest thumping aside,not all of us can carry a 5 inch 1911 every day. my day to day gun is an old smith 36 in an ankle holster. can hit a ipsc steel target from the draw in three seconds at 100 yards. I call that good enough. could I shoot that accurately in a fight - highly doubtful, but better to have the capability there than not.
My accuracy standard for modern combat autos is less stringent than for 1911's or revolvers,simply because they just are not as inherently accurate. Will they get the job done most of the time- absolutely.
For me an acceptable accuracy standard for a service pistol would be 4" ten shot groups at 25 yards from the bench. An accurate pistol would be 2.5" or less, with anything under 2" as very accurate.
I'd go with this.
Okie John
Hard to argue with LAV's 2.5" standard or his logic about the need for that degree of accuracy. The interesting thing is that it's harder to live up to this accuracy standard than you'd think.
With tuned 1911's, as some have noted, it's not a problem. My custom 1911's (Springfield Custom and Cylinder & Slide) can both do 5-shot groups under 2" at 25. Even with WWB bulk ammo.
With my four M&P 9's, it's more of a mixed bag. In factory configuration, none of them could hold 2.5" groups @25. In fact, except for the M&P9 Pro (which has always been accurate), they'd all consistently group at 6", or larger. With custom-fit barrels on two of them (Storm Lake barrels fitted at G&R Tactical), they now hold 3" groups, and can do 2.5" or better if I use ammo they like, and IF I do my job. At least with these rebarreled M&P's, I no longer feel like there's a mechanical/fitting issue in the pistol that's holding back the accuracy potential.
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