View Full Version : dillon users info needed
Im going to be purchasing a Dillon rl550 and am interested if anybody can give me some info on a few aftermarket upgrades.
If you have any info on a couple products uniquetek sells please speek up. The products Im looking at are the turbo bearing for 550, whidden gunworks machined toolheads with the clamping kits, and there micrometer powder bar kits.
Im looking at the machined toolheads, because i want to maintain the tightest tolerances i can with a progressive. I have been using single stage since the beginning. I have used progressive i just can not stand more then .005 variation in length of trimmed cases, oal at ogive. I do not even like the difference in measurement of oal to the meplat, but as long as they fall within the difference i have from measuring the bullets i deal with it. I would rather the ogives be consistent.
So if any of you have any of these products let me know what you think of them, and if you have seen a measurable difference in the tolerances you are getting.
If they do not make much of a difference i will just load pistol ammo on the 550 and continue to load rifle asmi have for years.
Please no suggestions for the Hornady. I have used one of my buddies and my buddies Dillon. You may love the Hornady but i think it is just barely adequate. That is my opinion and we know what they say about opinions. I also do not want a 650. If i were to go for an auto advance progressive it would be a 1050.
Thanks for any info you can provide i appreciate it.
I've shot 1/4 MOA using the standard tool heads for .223.
Standard powder bars and everything. Now I'm trimming off press on a Giraud, but powder, bullet seat, and Crimp are all full throttle progressive blow and go.
S. Galbraith
10-05-12, 09:09
I've shot 1/4 MOA using the standard tool heads for .223.
Standard powder bars and everything. Now I'm trimming off press on a Giraud, but powder, bullet seat, and Crimp are all full throttle progressive blow and go.
Ditto. The standard Dillon equipment is pretty darn precise. Your loadings get more accurate as you experiment with different powder and bullets, and then test them out. How accurately your powder meters out is another factor, along with how accurately you set up the meter. Every time the machine is cycled, powder gets shoved into the powder measure.......so with most powders you have to cycle through an empty case so that you get a fresh powder drop each time. Little things you learn as you use the machine to make it more accurate.
...so with most powders you have to cycle through an empty case so that you get a fresh powder drop each time. Little things you learn as you use the machine to make it more accurate.
Can you explain that again? How do you keep progressive going if you need to keep working an empty case?
I'm gearing up to load 5.56 and it will be my first rifle ammo at all much less on a 550.
He lost me there too. I dump the first powder charge back into the hopper just to let the powder settle. But I don't know what he means with the empty case.
S. Galbraith
10-05-12, 10:29
Can you explain that again? How do you keep progressive going if you need to keep working an empty case?
I'm gearing up to load 5.56 and it will be my first rifle ammo at all much less on a 550.
Before you run the machine, the powder bar on the powder measure is in position to receive powder from the hopper. As you cycle the machine, the powder bar will move to the right and swip off a measured amount of powder. If you have a case in station two, the powder funnel with detect the case and the powder bar will move all the way over to the right to drop the powder into the case. If there is no case in station two, then the powder bar will only slide half way and not drop the powder. Once you finish your cycle on the machine, the powder bar returns to the starting position to receive powder from the hopper. If no powder was dropped from the previoius cycle, then that powder will remain in the powder bar. However, when the bar slides that powder charge back and forth it tends to settle more depending on what powder you are using. So, when the bar returns to the hopper it can add more powder to the existing charge in the hopper. So, you usually end up with a charge that is several grains stronger than what you metered out for your production charge. If you are working with maxium charges, this "could" lead to problems if you dump too strong of a charge. In order to keep this settling effect minimized, you need to keep the powder bar loading and dropping with no interuptions. So, you just stick an empty case in station two to trigger a powder drop when you begin production in station one. Just dump the powder in that case back into the hopper, rotate the primed case from station 1 to station 2, and you are good to go.
My station one is empty anyway. I prime and all that stuff off the press.
S. Galbraith
10-05-12, 10:40
In regard to difference in charge in the settling effect, it can range from several tenths of a grain in service caliber handguns, to several grains in rifle calibers. It depends on how much of a charge you are measuring out.
Ok, gotcha... yep, if I have interruptions I do one of two things, dump the charge and go from there, or weigh the charge and pour it back in the case and set it back in press, then continue.
Im fully aware that high end very accurate ammo can be produced on any Dillon. When i used a 650 my buddy had i was getting a little over .005 variance at the ogive. It could have been the press not being properly cared for.
Just yesterday i loaded some 168 grain amax for a friend in 308 with varget. Before loading i used the Hornady comparator to measure the bullets base to ogive. I measured about 30 and came up with no more than .003 in variation. I set up to seat at 2.800 oal. The measurement to the ogive was 2.174-2.177. Which fell in the range of what i had previously measured for the bullets.
I read info i believe came straight from Dillon that said you can expect as much as .010 in variation when using a Dillon press. I might have also read it on Brian enos's website. I know it came from one or the other. Im just trying to figure out if that is normal or is that the most you will see.
Some may think i might be a little bit anal with my expectations, but the way i was tought if there is more than .005 variation that can not be accounted for in components. You figure out what you are doing wrong. I do not hold pistol ammo to the same standards.
So what kind of tolerances is your press holding at the ogive if you have numbers. I have been loading on a rock chucker for roughly ten years. So i would not mind moving up to a progressive.
davestarbuck
10-09-12, 23:39
No offense sir, but can you shoot well enough to have such a small variance affect your targets?
I know I can't, and load match .308 on my 550 that consistently will shoot 5 inch groups at 600 yards with my R700.
That's with a buddy who is a F-class shooter running the gun, I'd be happy if I could get an 8 inch group at that range!
Just curious that's all!
So what kind of tolerances is your press holding at the ogive if you have numbers. I have been loading on a rock chucker for roughly ten years. So i would not mind moving up to a progressive.
I don't even have a bullet comparitor. I've just never had to dig that deep into the load to trouble shoot it. I appreciate the idea of wanting great consistency. But I also don't look a gift horse in the mouth... and my OCD ass doesn't need another variable to obsess on. :p
I'll second...third....whatever, the powder settling phenom. Have experienced exactly as described above. Need especially to compensate for this when setting up the toolhead with the various die adjustments. When you get to the stage of setting the powder measure, you need to cycle empty cases to make sure you are weighing throws made in the same uninterrupted mode that happens when actually reloading. The owner's manual never mentions this, but it is something that you will pick up and notice the effect of with experience.
I was looking at this the night before last. When I'm loading .223 on my 550b, the powder bar doesn't move the slightest on an empty station.
It does a little on pistol cases I think. But ZERO on .223.
Can i shoot well enough to notice the slight difference? No. I just was taught to keep variations minimal. I was taught by an older guy who used to be my neighbor, and he was very precise. It has warn off on me. My ocd keeps me looking for the next best tool to measure my ammo. I figure if i keep everything as tight as possible with little to no difference in each round i know its not the ammo if i have a bad shooting day.
I measure every round as it comes off the press. I have tried not to. If i put it down without measuring it bugs me, and i end up measuring it after the next round comes out.
I want a dillon to for loading after i have the load developed. I would still use single for my ocw loads, and then once i have settled on one switch to the dillon to load all components.
Right now i have my eye on a concentricity gauge. Im trying not to pick it up, because it will be another thing to obsess over. It seems that most of you do not measure at the ogive. Why not? Just wondering.
It seems that most of you do not measure at the ogive. Why not? Just wondering.
For me it'd be buying a tool to measure something that I don't find to be a problem.
I have the Sinclair Concentricity guage. But when we sorted off 5 of our worst runout SMKs and shot them for a 100m group, they were still MOA. I just use that guage to spot check here and there, or when experimenting with a new/different die.
I never had a problem before i started using it. I just did not like seeing the variation at the meplats especially matchkings. So i picked it up a long time ago to measure at the ogive. Im not the greatest shooter, but i can usually keep groups around moa or a little better. Depending on setup.
Im hoping after i shoot some rounds reloaded on a dillon i will realize i do not have to be so strict on the tolerances. I will probably still buy the upgrades for the press. I have read some reviews of the products, and everyone seems happy with them.
I only get to shoot a couple times in the summer, because of the heat. So i usually stock up on components during the summer. With the election coming up i decided not to end up low on everything like last election. With what i stockpiled it Will take months to load. Even if i load 7 days a week for 8 hours a day. The dillon should speed things up. I like the idea of producing a round every pull of the handle. Im just going to have to break my habit of measuring every round, and just measure a random amount of rounds that are finished.
Shot highpower for several years. Always loaded 200 & 300 yard ammo on a 550. Loaded the 600 yard ammo on a Rockchucker. I loaded some 600 yard on the 550 and could not tell the difference on the target. Still, I kept loading the 600 on the Rochchucker more out of superstition than fact.
For awhile I chased all the precision measurements until a more experienced shooter told me I was wasting my time. He basically said "let the target be your guide on whether you ammo is good enough, quit measuring everything you can, load more ammo with the time you save and shoot more, you'll have better scores doing that than by worrying about how perfect your ammo is."
HOWEVER...if you really need to squeak out that last 1/10000 of an inch of accuracy go over to the Brian Enos forum...those boys know all the tricks for making the 550 run.
Not speaking from personal experience, but from stuff I read once (don't remenber where): if you can run the handle the same every time, things like the clamped tool heads won't help you much because you will have consistent pressure on the toolhead. So work on being consistent in your stroke.
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Stumpnav i know that you can load great ammo on a progressive. Its a mind over matter thing for me. I do not know if it is ocd or what. I was thinking if i get a progressive i may be able to just load it and shoot without all the ocd measurements. If i load some ammo measure it and it falls outside of what i consider acceptable, and it still shoots great i think i can let go. Its good to hear from someone who has not seen much if any difference from single to progressive.
Chadbag i always strive for a consistent pull, but i will make sure to be as consistent as possible.
30 cal slut
10-18-12, 08:54
I've shot 1/4 MOA using the standard tool heads for .223.
Standard powder bars and everything. Now I'm trimming off press on a Giraud, but powder, bullet seat, and Crimp are all full throttle progressive blow and go.
What markm said. I load on both single stage and on an RL550 - the Dillon never ceases to impress me with accuracy and consistency (provided you do your job on your end setting it up).
I would rather spend the money on the Dillon upgrades ... namely, the dillon strong mount and the bullet tray, and maybe the power handle.
If you don't have a Giraud case trimmer, get one before anything else.
YMMV
I would love to get a giraud. Actually i want his trimmer and his annealing set up. One of my problems is lack of space. I Will eventually get both, but right now i have to deal with what i have.
ranger_sxt
10-18-12, 15:55
As a matter of full disclosure, I sell many of the Uniquetek items at a retail store, and I helped develop the Turbo Bearing. My coworker is currently getting a batch ready for sale...
That being said, of the three items you mentioned (the Turbo Bearing, the Micrometer Powder Bar, and the Toolhead Clamps), I own and use the Turbo Bearing and the Micrometer powder bar.
My big love of the Turbo Bearing is not so much the smoothness of operation, consistency, etc. that it offers, but rather the lack of "shell plate snap" that causes less than 0.001 grains to fall out when the brass gets into position (I know this number because I loaded 3000 rounds, swept up all the powder and weighed it; it weighed less than 0.1 grains). But as I helped develop them, of course I like it.
The Micrometer powder bar does have its uses, but they are slightly more limited. The big thing it offers is allowing a specific measurement of powder to be measured out after changing your powder charge. I use one in my line of work as loading commercially when I change from 115gr 9mm to 124gr 9mm. I don't see it as a major difference in making your ammo more consistent.
S. Galbraith
10-18-12, 16:23
If you don't have a Giraud case trimmer, get one before anything else.
YMMV
For precision loads, I usually get at least 5 reloads in between needed trimmings. For plinking ammo, I can wait even longer before needing to trim. Unless you are processing huge quantities of rifle ammo, spending that much money on a case trimmer "might" be a waste.
Considering a Giraud trimmer should be much further down on his list of necessary equipment.
Ranger thanks for the info. I should have clarified a little. I was looking at the machined clamping toolhead for more consistency. I was interested in the turbo bearing for the claims that it smooths the operation. I like the idea of micrometer on everything so i can record settings for future reloading. From all the info i have got i Will go with the standard toolheads. For the upgrades i Will get the turbo bearing and the micrometers along with a couple of the dillon upgrades like the strong mount.
S. Galbraith i trim every loading regardless so it would be nice to get the giraud. I have been loading for years on a single stage, and trimming on a lathe style trimmer. That's why i would love to get a giraud.
Yeah.. on the Giraud.. you should be loading a lot of ammo if you buy one.
I have one, but I'm loading for two shooters who shoot 300 rounds per week. Changing your die situation to get rid of an expander ball will help reduce the need to trim.
I don't shoot during the summer do to the heat. It is starting to cool down so ill be shooting a minimum of once a week. I have a small setup at home to shoot. I also lost all my data recently so i have a ton of loading to do. I usually shoot a couple hundred rounds once a week. Sometimes more.
I would love to have the giraud, because trimming is my least favorite thing. I might just get the power hook up for my trim pro, and try that first. I use the three way cutters so that saves some time. The giraud won't happen to soon, but i want some speed. I have been loading with the same equipment for a long time, and now i want to get some new toys to crank out the ammo faster.
go over to the Brian Enos forum...
+1
When I want general reloading info, I come here.
When I want Dillon info, I go there.
If you don't have a Giraud case trimmer, get one before anything else.
Is it really that much better than a Dillon RT1200B?
How so?
Ill have to see what they say, but from the members here Im pretty sure i will just get the bearing & micrometer. If the members here are loading ammo that is well below moa that's enough for me to know not to waste the money on the toolheads. I do look at the reloading section for dillon over there, but i just trust the guys here so i tend to ask here.
Is it really that much better than a Dillon RT1200B?
How so?
I don't know if it is "better", just "different" with a different emphasis.
I don't have a Giraud so can't speak from experience.
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Is it really that much better than a Dillon RT1200B?
How so?
It's a one step operation with no vaccuum cleaner required. Trims, Chamfers, and deburs all in one shot.
When I first saw it, I was skeptical of the heavy chamfer it puts on the inside of the case mouth. Now.. I won't seat a bullet without it. Very kind to your SMKs' jackets.
It's a one step operation with no vaccuum cleaner required. Trims, Chamfers, and deburs all in one shot.
Well, it is really two steps -- size, and then dump in the trimmer.
That is why I said it was "different". The Dillon trimmer sizes and trims all at once. So you skip a step.
I am not claiming one is better than the other. Different takes on the same process.
I'd like a 50 Giraud (not that I have every loaded 50 BMG, but I have a press in the box since like 5 years for the purpose ;) )
When I first saw it, I was skeptical of the heavy chamfer it puts on the inside of the case mouth. Now.. I won't seat a bullet without it. Very kind to your SMKs' jackets.
Is this a matter of getting a different die or can the ball be removed from an existing die? I thought the purpose of the ball was to open the mouth back up to the proper size to accept a bullet. The case mouth doesn't come out too small?
Changing your die situation to get rid of an expander ball will help reduce the need to trim.
All the cases I've sized so far have stretched an average of .007in. after sizing. Since the max length for .223 cases is 1.760in. and the min is 1.730in.-1.740in. (I've seen two different SAAMI drawings) it looks like if I trim down once I could get another 3-4 loadings without trimming. I guess I'll have to see what happens.
I have sized without the expander. The difference of the inner diameter when i tried it was roughly .0005-.001. That is just measuring with my calipers. When a guy i know who does it always told me about it i was skeptical, but it works.
There are a couple benefits to doing it. You get a little better neck tension, less trimming, and the necks should have less runout. If your stem is not exactly centered as the expander is removed it can cause runout.
I do not have a runout gauge yet, but i try to do what i can to hopefully keep it at a minimum. I was told that putting a small o-ring under the locking nut for the decapping/expander stem will help keep neck runout to a minimum. It is supposed to help the stem float so it self centers upon removal. Someone who has been loading longer than me told me about that little trick, and claims he saw a measurable decrease in the runout. I have not been able to test it, but all my sizing dies have o-rings in place.
I may just remove my stems now. Hearing another reputable loader talk about it may push me to use my universal decapper, and remove the decapping stems on my rifle dies.
ky rifle dies.
?? what is a "ky rifle die"
Can you remove the expander from your sizing die and still keep the decapper?
(Dillon dies let you do this as it is just a carbide ball that slides over the decap pin base)
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30 cal slut
10-19-12, 14:09
Is it really that much better than a Dillon RT1200B?
How so?
take a look at an electric pencil sharpener. sorta the same concept.
no vacuum needed, just empty shaving tray when it gets full.
Is it really that much better than a Dillon RT1200B?
How so?
It really is. Just walk over, flip the switch and go. An it actually saves a step when trimming once fired 5.56 and 7.62x51 brass. Mine always need inside and sometimes outside deburring at the first rimming. My 1st fired 5.56 and 7.62 brass tends to be much longer than .223/.308 - some .223 brass is below minimum after the 1st firing.
Right now I'm full processing a (near life time) supply of Aussie 7.62 brass - it's making some kick-ass reloads for my SCAR-17.
The first Giraud trimming takes about 5 seconds each. Subsequent trimmings (and I trim every time) are around 3 seconds each. When they come out of the tumbler to remove the sizing lube, they go directly to the Giraud.
The thought of deburring all that brass was one of my primary reason for getting the Giraud. Another larger reason was the .308 Dillon trimmer die excessively sizes the case necks (did my own measurements to back up what I've read); IIRC the neck O/D was about .004 smaller than coming out of the Redding die.
I was sizing with an expander ball to clean up the necks (most are FAL fired and beat up), then the Dillon sizer to trim, then deburr, and then the sizer /w expander ball again. Nuts to that! Now I simply size/neck-expand with the Redding, tumble to remove the lube, and trim/deburr in one step.
These issues don't apply to 5.56/.223 necks. The difference with the Dillon size/trim die to my RCBS /w expander ball is only ~.0005".
?? what is a "ky rifle die"
Can you remove the expander from your sizing die and still keep the decapper?
(Dillon dies let you do this as it is just a carbide ball that slides over the decap pin base)
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Was supposed to be: my rifle dies
Accidently hit wrong button on my phone
I use rcbs dies and the pin is held in place by the expander ball
Was supposed to be: my rifle dies
The dies i use the expander ball holds the decapping pin
Accident hit wrong button on my phone
Ah, I know that well...
So, on these rifle dies you have: can you remove the expander ball/cone/whatever they use as a neck expander and still have the decap-part active?
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Ah, I know that well...
So, on these rifle dies you have: can you remove the expander ball/cone/whatever they use as a neck expander and still have the decap-part active?
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The only way to make that work would be to turn down the expander small enough to where it did not touch the inner case mouth.
The expander ball is female threaded on one end with a hole in the opposite. The decapping pin slides through the expander ball and then the expander ball threads on to the decapping stem.
I do not know if i explained it well enough to understand if not let me know. Like i said the only way i can think of to make it work would be to turn it down to a smaller diameter to avoid it opening the case mouth.
No way to just remove expander ball and leave decapping ability intact.
The only way to make that work would be to turn down the expander small enough to where it did not touch the inner case mouth.
The expander ball is female threaded on one end with a hole in the opposite. The decapping pin slides through the expander ball and then the expander ball threads on to the decapping stem.
I do not know if i explained it well enough to understand if not let me know. Like i said the only way i can think of to make it work would be to turn it down to a smaller diameter to avoid it opening the case mouth.
No way to just remove expander ball and leave decapping ability intact.
So the expander ball itself holds the pin it seems? Or something like that.
Too bad. The Dillon rifle dies let you remove the expander ball and screw the decap pin back into the die top part.
Of course the Dillon decap pins are also beaucoup bucks since they are the major structural part and not just a little steel pin.
Here is a (bad) picture of the pin:
http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/24507/catid/4/Dillon_Spare_Decapping_Pins
slide a carbide ball with a hole through its center onto the left end before you screw that into the die...
A well.
Thanks for the explanation...
(And no, I am not suggesting you change dies)
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So the expander ball itself holds the pin it seems? Or something like that.
Too bad. The Dillon rifle dies let you remove the expander ball and screw the decap pin back into the die top part.
Of course the Dillon decap pins are also beaucoup bucks since they are the major structural part and not just a little steel pin.
Here is a (bad) picture of the pin:
http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/24507/catid/4/Dillon_Spare_Decapping_Pinsi
slide a carbide ball with a hole through its center onto the left end before you screw that into the die...
A well.
Thanks for the explanation...
(And no, I am not suggesting you change dies)
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Im looking into going to redding or forster for all my rifle dies. I use the competition dies from rcbs. i can not use the seating die in a progressive, because it uses an extended shell holder.
Im looking into going to redding or forster for all my rifle dies. I use the competition dies from rcbs. i can not use the seating die in a progressive, because it uses an extended shell holder.
I have just one Redding (6.5x55) Competition Seating die. It works fine in a Dillon 650 - never heard anything about an extended shell holder for these.
My Comp seating die for .223/5.56 is a Forester and it does not work in my Dillon 1050 (shell plate rotates too soon) - but it would work in a 550 or 650.
I have just one Redding (6.5x55) Competition Seating die. It works fine in a Dillon 650 - never heard anything about an extended shell holder for these.
I don't know how they work but the RCBS Competition seating dies won't work in the Dillon. I've never used one and it has been years since I read about it but I believe it has a side opening for putting the bullet in or something and the tool heads are too thick. That may be off but here is a pic of one:
https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=4387&route=C09J048N023
My Comp seating die for .223/5.56 is a Forester and it does not work in my Dillon 1050 (shell plate rotates too soon) - but it would work in a 550 or 650.
I don't know how they work but the RCBS Competition seating dies won't work in the Dillon. I've never used one and it has been years since I read about it but I believe it has a side opening for putting the bullet in or something and the tool heads are too thick. That may be off but here is a pic of one:
https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/MainServlet?storeId=webconnect&catalogId=webconnect&langId=en_US&action=ProductDisplay&screenlabel=index&productId=4387&route=C09J048N023
The rcbs competition uses an extended shell holder. If i wanted to use it in a progressive i would need to switch the shell holder around in the plate constantly to try and make it work.
I love the way they work in the single stage. You just run the case up till it contacts the sleeve. Then you place a bullet in the window and finish seating the bullet. In the directions it says they Will not work in progressive loaders.
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