Shotguns in World War I

[Slater]

From Global Security.com:


An infantryman breaking into a trench could sweep both sides of it (to the depth of a passageway) with multiple buckshot rounds. Once leaders understood the 50-meter range of this weapon, it was employed with skill. A soldier with a shotgun, fast to pump and fire, could quickly suppress German trench assaults and clear dugouts with devastating effectiveness. Out of the trenches, the Model 97 cleared Germans out of farmhouses and buildings in French villages with equal effectiveness. On 27 September 1918, Sergeant Fred Lloyd, using a Model 97, advanced alone into a German-held village and began methodically clearing it, pumping and firing the shotgun as he moved. He finally collapsed with exhaustion after routing thirty German soldiers. The combat shotgun had earned its place as an Army secondary weapon.


I've also heard anecdotes that the M97 was used on occasion to shoot enemy carrier pigeons (believable) or deflect incoming hand grenades. That last one is a bit hard to swallow unless luck or inordinate skill was involved. Possible or just war stories?

[armakraut]

Avtomat Browningkov 1897

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b101/aurang/new_slings/blaster2.jpg

It should be noted the Germans were fielding the more advanced submachineguns by the end of the war.

[FJB]

The Germans were so upset about the effectiveness of the M97 Shotgun in the trenches that they tried to have it "outlawed" for use, as they thought it "inhumane" for combat. This while they were using Mustard gas...go figure.

S/F

[Jay Cunningham]

Very similar to those who want to ban white phosphorous or cluster bomb use. Somehow getting shot in the chest is ok but dying from shrapnel from a cluster bomb is "inhumane."

[Lumpy196]

I've also heard anecdotes that the M97 was used on occasion to shoot enemy carrier pigeons (believable) or deflect incoming hand grenades. That last one is a bit hard to swallow unless luck or inordinate skill was involved. Possible or just war stories?


I wasn't around in WWI, nor have I ever played skeet with live handgrenades, so I can't answer that for you.

[armakraut]

The Germans were so upset about the effectiveness of the M97 Shotgun in the trenches that they tried to have it "outlawed" for use, as they thought it "inhumane" for combat. This while they were using Mustard gas...go figure.

S/F

I've seen this quoted a few times, but I've never seen a paper trail on it.

For its time, the 1897 was a fearsome weapon.

As far as I know the only small arms outlawed by the allies were machinepistols and the ability of German citizens to own mausers chambered in the 7.92x57 caliber.

[Slater]

From lawofwar.org, this details the whole "legal challenge" thing:



On 19 September 1918, the Government of Switzerland, representing German interests in the United States, presented to the U.S. Secretary of State a cablegram received by the Swiss Foreign Office containing the following diplomatic protest by the Government of Germany:

"The German Government protests against the use of shotguns by the American Army and calls attention to the fact that according to the law of war (Kriegsrecht) every [U.S.] prisoner [of war] found to have in his possession such guns or ammunition belonging thereto forfeits his life. This protest is based upon article 23(e) of the Hague convention [sic] respecting the laws and customs of war on land. Reply by cable is required before October 1, 1918."

The German protest was precipitated in part by the capture in the Baccarat Sector (Lorraine) of France, on 21 July 1918, of a U.S. soldier from the 307th Infantry Regiment, 154th Infantry Brigade, 77th Division, AEF, who was armed with a 12-gauge Winchester Model 97 repeating trench (shot) gun, and a second, similarly-armed AEF soldier from the 6th Infantry Regiment, 10th Infantry Brigade, 5th Division, on 11 September 1918 in the Villers-en-Haye Sector. Each presumably possessed issue ammunition, which was the Winchester "Repeater" shell, containing nine No. 00 buckshot.

The German protest was forwarded by the Department of State to the War Department, which sought the advice of The Judge Advocate General of the Army. Brigadier General Samuel T. Ansell, Acting Judge Advocate General, responded by lengthy memorandum dated 26 September 1918. Addressing the German protest, General Ansell stated:

Article 23(e) simply calls for comparison between the injury or suffering caused and the necessities of warfare. It is legitimate to kill the enemy and as many of them, and as quickly, as possible . . . . It is to be condemned only when it wounds, or does not kill immediately, in such a way as to produce suffering that has no reasonable relation to the killing or placing the man out of action for an effective period.

The shotgun, although an ancient weapon, finds its class or analogy, as to purpose and effect, in many modern weapons. The dispersion of the shotgun [pellets] . . . is adapted to the necessary purpose of putting out of action more than one of the charging enemy with each shot of the gun; and in this respect it is exactly analogous to shrapnel shell discharging a multitude of small [fragments] or a machine gun discharging a spray of . . . bullets.

The diameter of the bullet is scarcely greater than that of a rifle or machine gun. The weight of it is very much less. And, in both size and weight, it is less than the . . . [fragments] of a shrapnel shell . . . . Obviously a pellet the size of a .32-caliber bullet, weighing only enough to be effective at short ranges, does not exceed the limit necessary for putting a man immediately hors de combat.

The only instances even where a shotgun projectile causes more injury to any one enemy soldier than would a hit by a rifle bullet are instances where the enemy soldier has approached so close to the shooter that he is struck by more than one of the nine . . . [No. 00 buckshot projectiles] contained in the cartridge. This, like the effect of the dispersing of . . . [fragments] from a shrapnel shell, is permissible either in behalf of greater effectiveness or as an unavoidable incident of the use of small scattering projectiles for the nec-
essary purpose of increasing [the] likelihood of killing a number of enemies.

General Ansell concluded his memorandum with the statement that "The protest is without legal merit." Acting Secretary of War Benedict Crowell endorsed General Ansell’s memorandum of law and forwarded it to the Secretary of State that same day. Secretary of State Robert Lansing provided the following reply to the Government of Germany two days later:

[T]he . . . provision of the Hague convention, cited in the protest, does not . . . forbid the use of this . . . weapon . . . . [i]n view of the history of the shotgun as a weapon of warfare, and in view of the well-known effects of its present use, and in the light of a comparison of it with other weapons approved in warfare, the shotgun . . . cannot be the subject of legitimate or reasonable protest.


The Government of the United States notes the threat of the German Government to execute every prisoner of war found to have in his possession shotguns or shotgun ammunition. Inasmuch as the weapon is lawful and may be rightfully used, its use will not be abandoned by the American Army . . .

[i]f the German Government should carry out its threat in a single instance, it will be the right and duty of the . . . United States to make such reprisals as will best protect the American forces, and notice is hereby given of the intention of the . . . United States to make such reprisals.

World War I ended six weeks later, without reply by Germany to the United States response. There is no record of any subsequent capture by German forces of any U.S. soldier or marine armed with a shotgun or possessing shotgun ammunition, or of Germany carrying out its threat against the U.S. soldiers it captured earlier.

[olds442tyguy]

For its time, the 1897 was a fearsome weapon.
It may not be tactical and all, but I think it'd still be a fearsome weapon even by today's standards.

I'd love to get me an 1897 trench gun.
http://www.winchestercollector.org/images/guns/1897.jpg

Any pump shotgun that can be fired like it has an open bolt and accepts a bayonet is cool by me. It may not be that practical, but that still doesn't mean it's not awesome.

[warpigM-4]

a buddy i grew up with stepdad had a trenchgun I tried like hell to buy it from him when I got older he still has it to this day. even had the bayonet.

[Slater]

Got me one of them Chinese Commie copies. Interestingly, the walnut for the stocks was sent to China from Missouri for these guns (according to Coyote Cap, the gunsmith who helped the Chinese with their production setup):


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/pb57/HPIM0292.jpg

[Scattergun]

I had a M97 WWI trenchgun and traded it a while back..

[Striker5]

I have no documentary evidence, but I seriously doubt the shotgun could be used for skeet and trap - ing grenades. With all the wacky things that can happen in combat, maybe it happened once and was just one of those things - but as a tactic I just don't see it. I had the privilege of speaking to a MOH winner from Korea. In addition to many other courageous acts in defending a lone foxhole (he was staying w/ an injured battle buddy and the rest of his company was either killed or abandoned their positions), he told us that the Chinese through a number of grenades at him. He threw them back or, as pertains to this discussion, used an E-tool as a makeshift bat and said he smacked a number of them away. One of his hands was twisted into a sort of claw where a grenade he was in the act of throwing back exploded.

Thanks for the document post, as this is also something I've heard a few times but never had any details.

[olds442tyguy]

Keep in mind German grenades of the time weren't fragmentation units and weighed less than a pound and a half, some even being three fourths of a pound.

The stick grenades were also pretty fragile. I suppose if a guy was really lucky he might be able to deactivate one by shooting it with out the powder igniting? :confused:

I wouldn't want to try it, but if I run across any replicas at a gun show I might buy some to use as pigeons.

[Barry in IN]

I may be imagining this (has happened before) but I read H.W. McBride's "A Rifleman Went To War" in the past year, and I think he says he heard about shotguns being used for that in the trenches...but he heard it after the war and wrote it off as "one of those tales".
But I might be thinking of someone else.